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Regarding the Grendel missions


(NSW)Greybones

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I was recently speaking to someone about the Grendel missions, and their impression of it intrigued me.

Nullifying the effects of our equipped mods and pitting us against level 40 - 45s sounds tricky, and I was wondering about the take on it that others may have after they’ve completed the missions (I’m going to jump into them in due time because Grendel looks awesome 👍 )

edit: I’m seeing a lot of Warframes being referenced, which is cool and handy.

I’m wondering what weapons people brought to the fight; I can handle level 60s without survival mods fine in my Warframe, but I’ll usually need something like an element or IPS or Serration or Hornet Strike mod for 40-45s to comfortably kill

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the farm overall is terrible, first unlock entire start chat then farm arbitration mode for vitus essense. when he first came, it was alteast easy to taxi with other players but now it will be hard to find those. there are frames like octavia that can still make it do-able solo. now with helminth introduced, it can further help. still i wont re-run them, will wait for grendal prime in future to toss my current fodder grendel for subsume

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I was recently speaking to someone about the Grendel missions, and their impression of it intrigued me.

Nullifying the effects of our equipped mods and pitting us against level 40 - 45s sounds tricky, and I was wondering about the take on it that others may have after they’ve completed the missions (I’m going to jump into them in due time because Grendel looks awesome 👍 )

The missions are mind numbingly boring, the biggest challenge is not falling asleep. They are the equivalent of "Warframe, but with all the fun sucked out of it." I did them twice, solo for myself, then duo to help a friend. Solution to the "challenge": Hildryn, subsume Elemental Ward and change the element to electricity + use the Blazing Pillage augment. There, you've solved the run, the enemies just keel over. It only gets easier if you run it in a group. Add a Panzer Vulp on top for immortal pet + give yourself access to viral procs.

(In case it is not clear, other warframe augments and unique companion precepts work in these missions)

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I duo'd this with a buddy and I used Lavos for the Survival while he brought Nezha. Was fine.

We did the Defense and Excavation as Octavia + Frost. It can be tricky, but it really just feels cheesy both in the sense of being basically naked and in the solutions to these missions.

4 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

They are the equivalent of "Warframe, but with all the fun sucked out of it."

This.

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Cool cool. I’m seeing references to Warframes as a solution, which is interesting; I would have thought it was the weapons that were something more worth considering? Personally I usually need matched elements/resistances or a Serration/Hornet Strike to take out level 40 - 45s comfortably, and the thought of not having those mods makes me feel like it can be quite hard to kill, perhaps

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13 hours ago, XAN3MK said:

The missions are mind numbingly boring, the biggest challenge is not falling asleep. They are the equivalent of "Warframe, but with all the fun sucked out of it." I did them twice, solo for myself, then duo to help a friend. Solution to the "challenge": Hildryn, subsume Elemental Ward and change the element to electricity + use the Blazing Pillage augment. There, you've solved the run, the enemies just keel over. It only gets easier if you run it in a group. Add a Panzer Vulp on top for immortal pet + give yourself access to viral procs.

(In case it is not clear, other warframe augments and unique companion precepts work in these missions)

I actually found the missions quite enjoyable, and I did them with Saryn because her spores scale with or without mods.

 

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Haven't done them (still too lazy to do the last Defection nodes on my star chart), but honestly they just sound irritating at best.

Especially fighting Grineer with unmodded weapons.

Your guess is... appreciated?

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I really liked them the first time around. I found a group in recruiting and we keyshared like in the good old days. We failed the Defense since we just brought whatever we wanted like we'd do anywhere else in the game these days and regrouped with a proper party composition. It was T4D all over again, everyone working together and filling a role in the squad. I played Trinity which I haven't done in ages. The Survival was fun, we got downed every once in a while and had to stick together. The Excavation was like the Defense, but at that point we'd found our stride and were doing well together so it went quickly. The second time I did his farm was for a second copy to feed to Helminth, and at that point I was just working down my checklist so I cheesed it and it wasn't as fun. It still required more cooperation than you'd ever see elsewhere nowadays, but I was in a hurry and just wanted to be done which soured it a little.

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10 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I was just working down my checklist so I cheesed it and it wasn't as fun. It still required more cooperation than you'd ever see elsewhere nowadays, but I was in a hurry and just wanted to be done which soured it a little.

That's the thing about this form of "challenging" content. Nobody wants to do it because the gimmicks that make it challenging require taking all your tools away. Of course people will cheese it. Of course something that is tedious, annoying, and itself feels like a cheese mode will be met with the path of least resistance.

It does beg the question, though: What if *this* was how they implemented Steel Path (with a couple minor changes, like access to gear wheel and operator) instead of just +100 levels to everything? Assuming the rewards tables were the same, you think people would have gone for it, knowing it would likely require squads and teamwork to progress reasonably well? Or is this pointing to how anti-social players have become?

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On 2021-07-25 at 11:10 AM, CrazyCatLad said:

I do wonder if DE creates missions as a challenge or a deterrent to wanting to play.

Challenge = Bullet Sponge

Challenge = Cheesy

Challenge = Annoying

thus:

Challenge = Deterrent

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2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

That's the thing about this form of "challenging" content. Nobody wants to do it because the gimmicks that make it challenging require taking all your tools away. Of course people will cheese it. Of course something that is tedious, annoying, and itself feels like a cheese mode will be met with the path of least resistance.

It does beg the question, though: What if *this* was how they implemented Steel Path (with a couple minor changes, like access to gear wheel and operator) instead of just +100 levels to everything? Assuming the rewards tables were the same, you think people would have gone for it, knowing it would likely require squads and teamwork to progress reasonably well? Or is this pointing to how anti-social players have become?

I think it's more indicative of how player values have shifted. Nobody wants to do anything if it slows them down. We want our rewards and we want them now, gameplay be damned. Even if them missions let you use your full gear there'd still be people that find them tedious, annoying, or cheesy and people would still follow the path of least resistance.

If it were how SP were made I don't think anything would really change: players would still gravitate towards cheese and the limited number of most optimal choices. There'd be some combination of mechanics or some frame that's balanced above the others that would make players the most powerful, and we'd all use just that.

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Solo'd everything with Wukong.  Had to get lucky with the Survival mission and got down to the wire with the Defense mission, but it worked out in the end.  Probably should have went with Hildryn or Revenant if I had them on hand, but I did not at the time.  Enemies will take a while to kill, so weapons and abilities with CC effects will be helpful (IIRC, I brought a Proboscis Cernos for my Wuclone, but it's probably not the best option if you plan to use it yourself as you would run out of ammo).

My only gripe is that it seemed like a lot of work for a rather underwhelming frame.  But some people seem to really like Grendel, so YMMV.

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11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I think it's more indicative of how player values have shifted. Nobody wants to do anything if it slows them down. We want our rewards and we want them now, gameplay be damned.

I'm not sure this is the players' fault. In retrospect, the way the game is designed doesn't leave room for much else. It's entirely centered around "do X thing for Y reward" and the Y side of that is bloated like crazy. Then tie the MR system into this and it's the perfect storm to get people to want to be more efficient and speed run everything, otherwise they'll never reach their goals in a reasonable timeframe. I admit I played like this across two accounts until I reached MR 20 on both, where I finally felt I could relax a bit and just enjoy the game for the gameplay, but even with that, balance (or lack of it) has very little to do with that enjoyment. The game sells itself on the power fantasy in combination with fun/gimmicky mechanics. How could balance ever be a consideration? How could they possibly challenge us in a way that they aren't cheesing us or that we wouldn't cheese the content?

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Warframe augment mods still have their effects in Grendel missions.

Defence I took Hildryn and a Rakta Dark Dagger. Because I run her Blazing Pillage augment stuff tended to burn, her 2 kept my sheilds up just fine (the dagger was a failsafe in case I got careless). I did Helmjnth Octavia's roller ball onto her, just so the Corpus would go round shooting that instead of the defence pod. Worked a treat.

Octavia trivialised Survival, though Hildryn could have probably done just fine (didn't realise augments worked until after I finished the missions).  My actual enemy on survival was the abysmal spawn rate. Base Octavia deleted anything that we did find.

Excavation was where I effed up. I took Limbo. Unmodded Limbo is sad Limbo. I couldn't get canisters from enemies because my weapons didnt do crap to them and base Limbo can't take a hit. Energy isnt a problem because of his passive, but his skills don't stay up that long without mods.

I ended up spending 40 minutes setting off extractors and hiding in the rift, getting 20-40 cryptic a go until I for what was needed and cursed that mission. Youd probably be better off with Octavia for that one, but needless to say I havent been all that keen to go back and test that one out 😂

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12 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Challenge = Bullet Sponge

Challenge = Cheesy

Challenge = Annoying

thus:

Challenge = Deterrent

This really. With the challenge phobia casuals as the majority, they will label any type of challenge as an "annoyance". 

One shot attacks that is well telegraphed? Unfair.

Tileset that utilizes parkour? Too hard or Too much effort.

Quick Timed Events? Too fast.

Fights that requires weakspot? Hitbox too "small".

They only want to get the new shiny as fast as possible with the least amount of effort possible.

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Il y a 1 heure, DrivaMain a dit :

This really. With the challenge phobia casuals as the majority, they will label any type of challenge as an "annoyance". 

One shot attacks that is well telegraphed? Unfair.

Tileset that utilizes parkour? Too hard or Too much effort.

Quick Timed Events? Too fast.

Fights that requires weakspot? Hitbox too "small".

They only want to get the new shiny as fast as possible with the least amount of effort possible.

You're speaking my mind right there... sad...

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2 hours ago, Butterfly85 said:

I ended up spending 40 minutes setting off extractors and hiding in the rift, getting 20-40 cryptic a go until I for what was needed and cursed that mission. Youd probably be better off with Octavia for that one, but needless to say I havent been all that keen to go back and test that one out

I think the fact that the keys are one-time use instead of permanent access prevents people from testing/enjoying it more. I could see it having a niche if it wasn't for this.

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2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

This really. With the challenge phobia casuals as the majority, they will label any type of challenge as an "annoyance".

I play tons of games only on their hardest difficulties, but the "challenge" in this game often is through annoyance/cheese. I don't think this game can provide proper challenge outside of just letting people choose their own challenge through an enemy level slider or something.

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

One shot attacks that is well telegraphed? Unfair.

This might be true if they actually were telegraphed. Bombard rockets are incredibly hard to see, for example. The camera is so close to your frame that you can't see the "telegraph" of things that are too close to you unless they are directly in front of you, and many maps are so crowded/small that this is hard to avoid. This is why people favor CC so hard.

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Tileset that utilizes parkour? Too hard or Too much effort.

Haven't seen this complaint, but wouldn't be surprised if there's someone out there. However, to make it sound like a common complaint is a bit ridiculous.

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Quick Timed Events? Too fast.

Do you mean this in the normal sense of QTEs like God of War, or do you mean timed events/missions like Rush? Because Rush used to be "bring Itzal or don't bother" and is now just "don't bother" because there are so few tools and no rewards for it.

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Fights that requires weakspot? Hitbox too "small".

This is very fight specific, but is symptomatic of the cheesy design to undermine player progression/power we see everywhere, so I don't see anything surprising about people complaining about this. Doubly true when the projectiles for certain weapons can clip on a number of things and not count as a hit, even when your aim is true--this is very common for bows, rockets, and grenades.

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

They only want to get the new shiny as fast as possible with the least amount of effort possible.

This comes from locking everything behind grind instead of just putting on the market as a blueprint and letting people build it if they have the resources or farm the resources if they don't. They want to play with the new shiny. Of course they do. This doesn't reflect on them negatively at all. Putting it behind stuff they don't want to do doesn't reflect poorly on them either. Nobody would run Defection if Harrow Systems weren't there. If they could just buy the blueprints and build it, they'd be more interesting in playing with the new toy in different ways (enjoying the gameplay) instead of "How do I cheese this awful game mode?" It has almost nothing to do with effort and everything to do with motivations and poor design decisions.

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Uhhh well, okay, so I have soloed them once, my first time. Then done them a few more times, with friends. 

I think I sort of get the idea behind them. Like when I finished the solo Defence? Did I feel good? Accomplished? A little... I guess? Then again, was that just the relief of having finished it and assuming I never had to do that again? For the solo I used Octavia, and she was pretty effective, but I also find Octavia's powers a bit boring, without a good Primary, so I tried resorting to my Primary, but it wasn't effective, so I ended up ground slamming with my melee, which was actually effective... and more engaging... for a little while. After 100 Waves it got really boring... (also its not actually 100 Waves, I think its only 15 or 10, it just felt like 100...) 

The second time and after, I went in knowing what it would be like, and my friends were blind, and we were in a party. So I enjoyed seeing them suffer and I went Lavos, since I didn't have to worry about energy, and I could just practice my elemental combos, plus we were talking and laughing so whole process was faster and easier. 

I don't always play Warframe with others, usually randoms/PUG, a fair bit of solo, sometimes friends. I think the Grendel missions are definitely balanced around team play, and if you can be in voice communication with people, even better. Its not impossible solo, its not the kind of challenge I personally enjoy, I have seen some interesting builds posted that could potentially trivialise the experience, either solo or in a group. I consider them more monotonous and boring (due to the time involved, 15 waves Defence, 20 min Survival, 800 Cryotic) than hard or difficult.

Advice I would give as far as loadouts? Octavia, Lavos, Hildryn if you are solo, but also them in a team, plus Trinity, Wisp, maybe Mesa, Saryn. Energy economy is rough, you don't get mods, or gear wheels. Panzer Vulpaphyla is a good distraction. Weapon wise, anything that might help with utility, maybe weapons with innate toxin? Melee ground slams were a nice way to CC and thus increase survivability, for myself and also Extractors/Defense. My biggest advice again though would be to get a party/group together.

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