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Could the (Automated) Trade-ban punishment system be looked at?


One-Eyed_King
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Last week I got a 3-day resource booster and realised i still needed to farm up the 6x 21 arcanes for the guns.
So me, Octavia and my fluffy Smeeta kavat headed to Steel Path survival and grind out 2 to 3 hours every day and a few days without booster but with Kavat.

Now, I had the nice displeasure of getting a trade-ban message on Saturday for "abnormal results" and once more today - but time did not increase according to the clan's trade tower.
This is likely because the Kavat's charm stacked a few times, causing me to get some higher numbers of essence.

Here's the issue with the automated trade-ban system, it doesn't account for luck.
reminder: it can stack up to 5 times, 6 with Tek Enhance, but is extremely rare.

Why do people still get punished for attempting to best their PB in Endless survival missions or when the Kavat overlords bless us once too much?
Please DE, make the system more lenient, the automated system punishment is outdated when you put up the ways of getting extra resources. 
We have Smeeta kavat, boosters, a blessing that can also boost resource drops a bit and even frames such as Nekros, Hydroid, Khora or Atlas giving us the ability to punch out extra resources out of an enemy, the more of these we use, the more chance you are to be struck down by the Automated Punishment system.

P.S. I tried support, they're giving me an automated response as well.

 

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Have you tried to reply to that automated response or continue the support ticket?

Whatever the reason is, nobody here can help, support can. If they do not want to disclose the reason or lift the trade-ban I am afraid you will have to deal with it.

How exactly would an untradeable resource trigger a trade-ban though? My guess is you've done something else.

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Just now, Quimoth said:

Have you tried to reply to that automated response or continue the support ticket?

Whatever the reason is, nobody here can help, support can. If they do not want to disclose the reason or lift the trade-ban I am afraid you will have to deal with it.

How exactly would an untradeable resource trigger a trade-ban though? My guess is you've done something else.

Honestly, i dont even know what triggers it, I don't run third-party software whilst playing the game, I dont use any macros whilst playing the game.
as for the untradable resources triggering trade-bans, it always did.

Also,  this post is simply made in hope DE sees it and actually looks at their automated system and perhaps make it more lenient, i sure as heck don't know what suddenly causes me to get these after a few days of doing steel path for a few hours.

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Edit: a moderator, despite the title of the post, has merged my initial post into this one. While it’s something I disagree with, and tried to avoid with my disclaimer and title, it did happen. Any and all possible replies to my post here may be in response to my initial one formerly titled “sick of these ‘trade ban’ posts: let’s discuss how to solve it”
 

 

If you browse the chaotic neutral zone known as the warframe reddit, you might have seen this post recently. The author shares his tale of how he did a couple of 2-3 hour survival endurance missions in steel path, only to get a trade ban due to the resources he got due to his smeeta boosters. Some responses were to simply complain on the forums, which I find to be a bad idea. While the bans are resolved, they often happen automatically and many say they shouldn’t. This post, like the title and disclaimer says, intends to try and fix this issue.

 

First, how do they happen? Well that’s easy: at the end of a mission, if the system detects that a player has gotten a large amount of resources, they then ban the player in question from trading as a precaution. The most common area these bans occur are after survival runs, due to the large amount of enemies and thus possible resources dropped from them. 

Now how do we fix it? Well here’s my idea: it’s clear the system looks at the resources the player has picked up at the end of the mission, and as such I am going to assume the system logs the mission data (ex- mission type, how long it took to complete, drops, total kills, etc.) and possibly logs it. If not, I would ask DE to create such a system if possible. Why you may ask? Well let’s say you do a steel path survival mission and pick up about 120 steel essence after an hour, thanks to some insanely lucky smeeta procs. The system would see this, and simply log it as a ticket to the people in charge of trade bans to be reviewed. What does this solve? Well for starters, no annoying trade bans for doing an endurance run. It also would show the staff the mission circumstances, such as the insanely lucky smeeta procs you got, and they could understand what happened. Depending on the severity of the ticket (ex picking up a large amount of rare resources in a short amount of time), it would let DE take a look at the ticket and take action if needed.  So the player who got a ton of steel essence thanks to their smeeta would have a low priority compared to the guy exploiting a bug to get insane amounts of resources in a short amount of time. If needed, automatic bans could be in place but the requirements to get one would have to be looked at carefully. Overall, I think this is a much better system than the one we have in place. 
 

Conclusion: the system I have thought of here, while good in my opinion, isn’t perfect. I am sure there are loopholes or critical issues I haven’t thought of in it. That is why I am asking all of you to offer your opinions to me, and help improve this system. Or, perhaps you have a better idea than mine, in which case I ask you share it to me and those interested in this post. Thank you for reading, and please offer any suggestions you have. As the saying goes, we all lift together.

Edited by Captain_Rocket505
Explaining a moderators error
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17 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Edit: a moderator, despite the title of the post, has merged my initial post into this one. While it’s something I disagree with, and tried to avoid with my disclaimer and title, it did happen. Any and all possible replies to my post here may be in response to my initial one formerly titled “sick of these ‘trade ban’ posts: let’s discuss how to solve it”
 

 

If you browse the chaotic neutral zone known as the warframe reddit, you might have seen this post recently. The author shares his tale of how he did a couple of 2-3 hour survival endurance missions in steel path, only to get a trade ban due to the resources he got due to his smeeta boosters. Some responses were to simply complain on the forums, which I find to be a bad idea. While the bans are resolved, they often happen automatically and many say they shouldn’t. This post, like the title and disclaimer says, intends to try and fix this issue.

 

First, how do they happen? Well that’s easy: at the end of a mission, if the system detects that a player has gotten a large amount of resources, they then ban the player in question from trading as a precaution. The most common area these bans occur are after survival runs, due to the large amount of enemies and thus possible resources dropped from them. 

Now how do we fix it? Well here’s my idea: it’s clear the system looks at the resources the player has picked up at the end of the mission, and as such I am going to assume the system logs the mission data (ex- mission type, how long it took to complete, drops, total kills, etc.) and possibly logs it. If not, I would ask DE to create such a system if possible. Why you may ask? Well let’s say you do a steel path survival mission and pick up about 120 steel essence after an hour, thanks to some insanely lucky smeeta procs. The system would see this, and simply log it as a ticket to the people in charge of trade bans to be reviewed. What does this solve? Well for starters, no annoying trade bans for doing an endurance run. It also would show the staff the mission circumstances, such as the insanely lucky smeeta procs you got, and they could understand what happened. Depending on the severity of the ticket (ex picking up a large amount of rare resources in a short amount of time), it would let DE take a look at the ticket and take action if needed.  So the player who got a ton of steel essence thanks to their smeeta would have a low priority compared to the guy exploiting a bug to get insane amounts of resources in a short amount of time. If needed, automatic bans could be in place but the requirements to get one would have to be looked at carefully. Overall, I think this is a much better system than the one we have in place. 
 

Conclusion: the system I have thought of here, while good in my opinion, isn’t perfect. I am sure there are loopholes or critical issues I haven’t thought of in it. That is why I am asking all of you to offer your opinions to me, and help improve this system. Or, perhaps you have a better idea than mine, in which case I ask you share it to me and those interested in this post. Thank you for reading, and please offer any suggestions you have. As the saying goes, we all lift together.

Honestly, that system setup is great.

 

As for the reddit post, that was my post, i simply worded it a little bit different on the forums, wanted it to sound a little more proper.
highest proc of smeeta i probably did was triple once and double a few times, but it really blows to get kicked in the sides with a trade-ban because 80-100+ essense is indeed suspicious to the system after an hour.

 

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5 minutes ago, One-Eyed_King said:

Honestly, that system setup is great.

 

As for the reddit post, that was my post, i simply worded it a little bit different on the forums, wanted it to sound a little more proper.
highest proc of smeeta i probably did was triple once and double a few times, but it really blows to get kicked in the sides with a trade-ban because 80-100+ essense is indeed suspicious to the system after an hour.

 

Thanks for the response mate! Sorry that my post got merged into yours though. I am glad you think my idea would work, the next step would be hoping DE decides to implement it. When I first saw your post, I started thinking how I could help solve that issue, so I am glad you agree with it. Thanks again mate!

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13 minutes ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Thanks for the response mate! Sorry that my post got merged into yours though. I am glad you think my idea would work, the next step would be hoping DE decides to implement it. When I first saw your post, I started thinking how I could help solve that issue, so I am glad you agree with it. Thanks again mate!

No worries, i really hope DE reads it and implements it as a proper system, which would probably work 10 times better than it is now.

 

Im honestly really taken aback with the system myself, for once in 4k hours i think "I'm going to see how long i can go" alongside "lets farm these arcanes myself because i'm greedy" and I get punished for it.

I mean, today, after a few missions I got the support message about trade-ban again which had me like "They better not slap 2 weeks extra on me for no reason" cause i ran 40 minutes yesterday to get some of the final arcanes for the Prims and Secondary gun arcanes, I checked the Dojo and seemingly no time added, perhaps its because i went to support about it and support thinks its clever to give an ingame response after the e-mail.
(FYI: this one is the "once more" in my original post.)

 

Here's the worst part, i haven't traded in weeks, not for platinum at least, im content with what i have, but the fact im trade-banned kinda feels like a blow to the gut regardless because some system out there thinks you are cheating the game, yet you're only following the meta on how to easily get a good amount of essense so you can be ready for the umbra forma week or get a good about of arcane slot unlockers.

 

I hate to say it, but Smeeta Kavat's charm buff needs to revised if its really the cause of trade-bans triggering as much as they are.

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Yeah it always sucks whenever I see one of these types of posts, simply because I see DE punishing people for doing endurance missions. I understand there are some who would want to exploit trading and need to be banned, but for most trade bans I see they’re all due to people simply testing how long they can do an endless mission for. And the worst part is support generally only notices when attention is brought to them via the forums or a ticket. To me, it’s such an obvious and widespread problem that I’m surprised they haven’t fixed it. The other kicker is that there are presumably more people like me, who have made solutions to this issue. We are a resource that can help fix a problem in the game, and we all got good ideas to solve these trade ban problems. Hopefully DE decides to listen to us and fix this issue.

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I received a trade ban and am only receiving automated responses from DE, so I can't even tell you what I've been banned for!

The only things I can think of is me doing a 2hour steelpath with resource booster and smeeta buff, maybe two double charm buffs, but I've gotten big charm buffs before with no ban. I have also been running profit taker a lot with chroma and have only got the smeeta buff towards the end twice with a credit booster, so around 1 million creds. 

I don't see how either of these are reason enough for a two week trade ban and find it ridiculous that I just get spammed with automated responses and never get a reason for my trade ban.

Either remove smeeta double buffs or update your system PLEASE.

How crazy is it that you get trade ban for farming in a game that is literally all about farming.

Have any of you managed to resolve this problem with DE or am I just gonna have to take it, since DE support sucks?

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It is out of date and jank because DE does not care about people like you in the slightest.

Edit: this post was in direct response to a thread asking why the trade ban system is so out of date.

Edited by Drachnyn
LMAO thread merging
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On 2021-07-26 at 8:16 PM, One-Eyed_King said:

Last week I got a 3-day resource booster and realised i still needed to farm up the 6x 21 arcanes for the guns.
So me, Octavia and my fluffy Smeeta kavat headed to Steel Path survival and grind out 2 to 3 hours every day and a few days without booster but with Kavat.

Now, I had the nice displeasure of getting a trade-ban message on Saturday for "abnormal results" and once more today - but time did not increase according to the clan's trade tower.
This is likely because the Kavat's charm stacked a few times, causing me to get some higher numbers of essence.

Here's the issue with the automated trade-ban system, it doesn't account for luck.
reminder: it can stack up to 5 times, 6 with Tek Enhance, but is extremely rare.

Why do people still get punished for attempting to best their PB in Endless survival missions or when the Kavat overlords bless us once too much?
Please DE, make the system more lenient, the automated system punishment is outdated when you put up the ways of getting extra resources. 
We have Smeeta kavat, boosters, a blessing that can also boost resource drops a bit and even frames such as Nekros, Hydroid, Khora or Atlas giving us the ability to punch out extra resources out of an enemy, the more of these we use, the more chance you are to be struck down by the Automated Punishment system.

P.S. I tried support, they're giving me an automated response as well.

 

Well that thing still exist DE likes to punish us for being lucky, no wonder why so many people leave the game. I got my second ban and people i often run SP with encounter that same auto ban system the tickets really doesn't help it sometimes  takes weeks after you send them and once the ban expires all you get is a SORRY (at best) .

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  • 2 weeks later...

I recently got tradebanned for having "abnormal results" in a mission. As a player with 2k hours who never does endurance runs, I really don't understand how this system is even able to flag me, and I'd like to understand why. However, as you can see from my interactions with DE support staff in the screenshot below, I'm not even allowed to know the reason for having to go through this unfair punishment for vague "security reasons". I'm creating this thread in the hopes that this ridiculous behavior is brought to light as my experience does not seem much different from other threads like this post.

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I don't think you should be posting your conversations here. I think you are kind a bit lucky, some players are trade banned until 2035. This behaviour is completely normal for DE, again I think you are lucky because the support team is actually communicating with you. I think they gave you plenty of information too, they said you were flagged by the anti-cheat automated system and they are working for confirm or clear your status.

After August 22 if you are found "guilty", ask for an investigation to appeal the decision.

I think the support team have been quite gracious with you. If you really want to "complain to the management", your only option is to PM the DE staff members on the forums here.

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well i see it this way if a mission flagged him for this i would like to know what mission that is to avoid it they will investigate maybe the hell out of it regardless but what security concerns could it be that this little detail is not a shareable information as an outside player i have a security concerns about a mission out there that can give people trade bans for no reason but i guess that is not important.

i mean they can just write we banned you from trading for 2 weeks because we needed to would be basicly the same to me

Edited by Keiyadan
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Yep, that outdated system is frustrating. Been hit with a couple 2 week trade bans because of Profit Taker. Knowing it's PT because it was the only thing I was doing at the time of each one happening. I didn't even have to ask support for the reason.

Imagine the joy of a 3-ish minute mission causing 2 weeks of no trading. Especially when some support people will actually do something and look into it and remove it. Then others are just lazy and give you a copy/paste message.

Edited by Hello
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vor 59 Minuten schrieb Hello:

Especially when some support people will actually do something and look into it and remove it. Then others are just lazy and give you a copy/paste message.

thats the problem if they are payed per ticket done. at least thats what i heard
and what i can say out of my exp with support interactions.

Edited by Keiyadan
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I mean this anti cheat problem exists for a long time now. most of the playerbase will never see it because they are just playing their 20 min missions. DE cares about what most people experience. maybe you got flagged due to a bug or something else but enjoy your vacation from trading coz nothing will change. they created a "perfect anti cheat" and will continue to see it as such. 

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9 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I don't think you should be posting your conversations here. I think you are kind a bit lucky, some players are trade banned until 2035. This behaviour is completely normal for DE, again I think you are lucky because the support team is actually communicating with you.

I think the support team have been quite gracious with you.

I will never understand this kind of thinking. If this behaviour seems completely normal and I should be feeling grateful that support even bothered to communicate with me, how low are you setting your bar for DE support? Am I supposed to grovel to customer support for table scraps in the form of automated responses? I am a customer, and should be treated as such, especially in the face of an opaque system that has been repeatedly banning players with impunity for a long time.

9 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

After August 22 if you are found "guilty", ask for an investigation to appeal the decision.

I see a point in waiting until my ban is over to raise another complaint, but from reading the experiences of other players I highly doubt I will be compensated for the unfair ban when I am eventually found to be innocent.

Edited by .bocchi.
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16 minutes ago, .bocchi. said:

I will never understand this kind of thinking. If this behaviour seems completely normal and I should be feeling grateful that support even bothered to communicate with me, how low are you setting your bar for DE support? Am I supposed to grovel to customer support for table scraps in the form of automated responses? I am a customer, and should be treated as such, especially in the face of an opaque system that has been repeatedly banning players with impunity for a long time.

I see a point in waiting until my ban is over to raise another complaint, but from reading the experiences of other players I highly doubt I will be compensated for the unfair ban when I am eventually found to be innocent.

Hey Bocchi, I'm sorry this happened to you. I didn't mean to downplay what you are going through.

If you were to post this on reddit or some other place that isn't owned by DE, you would be able to hear from more players that have shared your experience. I suggested "here" may not be the right place because the moment some angry players start dev bashing and name-and-shaming, this thread will get locked.

Regarding DE support communicating with you, I didn't mean that you should feel happy to get treated this way. I meant that (1) because of their automated systems flagging anyone, those players are considered "guilty until proven innocent". Your picture shows several back-and-forth communication and (2) my experience with support staff was "one-and-done" and they would never reply to my messages just to reassure me that I need to wait. No, I don't think you should grovel and I think you've done a great job so far remaining civil despite your situation. DE's anti-cheat methods may not be flawless, but DE has a great deal of tracking and logging resources available so that (3) I'm confident the humans auditing your profile will be able to exonerate you.

As for the team not releasing the trigger information about why your account was flagged, I do think that is up to DE's discretion. I can appreciate that you just wanted to share this info to help regular players, but that information would also aid malicious players. For that reason, I don't expect DE to tell you why your account was flagged.

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20 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

my experience with support staff was "one-and-done" and they would never reply to my messages just to reassure me that I need to wait.

This really is a recurring sentiment with DE support that I've heard from quite a few players and really deserves to be looked into internally.

20 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

As for the team not releasing the trigger information about why your account was flagged, I do think that is up to DE's discretion. I can appreciate that you just wanted to share this info to help regular players, but that information would also aid malicious players.

I don't buy this excuse. Even if they told me what triggered the tradeban, the automated system will still be in place to protect anything from being exploited while they fix whatever anomaly triggered the tradeban. There is no reason why I should be kept in the dark, especially with a heavy-handed punishment such as a ban.

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So after coming back to this post a few weeks later, it seems like everyone here could benefit from my system above. While I understand it might not be perfect, it still would be better than the current one we have. Getting trade banned for something that the devs knowingly put into the game sucks, and the fact 9 times out of 10 it’s automatic is even worse. With my system, I feel that it would let DE investigate cases easier and see most of them are just good luck runs. And while it would mean those who exploit the system with bugs could get away easier, it also would help DE find those players due to the recorded logs. 

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5 hours ago, Captain_Rocket505 said:

Getting trade banned for something that the devs knowingly put into the game sucks, and the fact 9 times out of 10 it’s automatic is even worse.

Automatic (and without recourse). The biggest question I have is who is reviewing these tradebans, or are they even being reviewed at all?

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Recently I was hit with a trade suspension out of nowhere. and then given a warning that if I "did it" again, Id get permanently banned. Which is ridiculous considering how long I have been playing with no problems whatsoever. DE really needs to update their policy. I wouldn't even mind if they scanned all the files on my computer just to prove that nothing is out of order. Feels like I have no control over whether I get to play and all my progress over years of playing would simply just vanish randomly if it happens again, and it most likely will happen again if it happened out of nowhere the first time. 

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On 2021-07-26 at 3:38 PM, Quimoth said:

Have you tried to reply to that automated response or continue the support ticket?

Whatever the reason is, nobody here can help, support can. If they do not want to disclose the reason or lift the trade-ban I am afraid you will have to deal with it.

How exactly would an untradeable resource trigger a trade-ban though? My guess is you've done something else.

This isn't a thread about getting one specific issue resolved by support.  This is about the slew of issues their automated bans create when they effect players who are literally doing exactly what DE wants.  You buy boosters with plat; DE wants that.  You spend a lot of time playing and increase their player engagement statistics; DE wants that too.  You farm up a companion that they put in the game with its own resource boosting ability and then slap a bunch of forma on it so it can hang with you when the enemies hit triple digit levels and that's all good with DE too.  As soon as you put all those things together and then get a little bit of luck on your side which causes you to get a bunch of resources, DE bans you from trading with no real appeal process.  You are punished for grinding too effectively and/or getting lucky.  

People do nothing wrong and get trade banned in numbers far larger than anyone should be comfortable with and yet we can't even get them to acknowledge that it's a problem.  I had a really good trade lined up once and only found out I was trade banned when I went to make the deal.  I didn't even get a notification about it.  The only thing that could have triggered it was some really lucky smeeta procs on Exploiter while having a resource booster while there was double drops from one event or another.  I did absolutely nothing wrong, got punished for it, it cost me a great deal on a riven and that made me stop playing for months.  I still obviously have a really bad taste in my mouth about it, and it absolutely effects how much I interact with the microtransactions in this game and my attitude toward them in general.  

The more issues like this they leave in the game, the more disrespectful they are of our time, the more negatively I view them.

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