PLEASE REVAMP THE K DRIVES

[Zimzala]

32 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes, but fun means different things to different people.

Yeah, sure, but if the k-drives provide Fun, for a segment of teh population, why is there also a need for them to provide higher DPS or lower TTK?

If the point is Fun, why do the k-drives have to be faster or better than Archwings?

The arguments I see mainly revolve around in-game ROI and 'efficiency' when 'improving' the current k-drive system.

I get some people want to fine tune the controls, personal outlooks IMO.

But if the k-drives are Fun, why do they also have to be 'efficient'?

Not every game system has to be Fun for every player type.

[Jarriaga]

58 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Fun is the reason to play these games, right?

Fun is indeed the reason, but fun will often take a backseat to effectiveness when fun feels like an obvious handicap to your performance because you know how you perform when not having fun.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Fun is indeed the reason, but fun will often take a backseat to effectiveness when fun feels like an obvious handicap to your performance because you know how you perform when not having fun.

Fun for me playing games never takes a back seat.

If I am not having Fun, I play a different game.

Why would you play a game that is not Fun, it makes no sense to me?

The whole reason for the k-drives appears to be Fun, not TTK, so other than the personal preference for tighter controls, where is the issue?

Why does a thing added for Fun have to be efficient?

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Yeah, sure, but if the k-drives provide Fun, for a segment of teh population, why is there also a need for them to provide higher DPS or lower TTK?

If the point is Fun, why do the k-drives have to be faster or better than Archwings?

The arguments I see mainly revolve around in-game ROI and 'efficiency' when 'improving' the current k-drive system.

I get some people want to fine tune the controls, personal outlooks IMO.

But if the k-drives are Fun, why do they also have to be 'efficient'?

Not every game system has to be Fun for every player type.

I cannot speak for others , I don't think I have advocated for any DPS related changes to k drives (may have suggested some trick mods that do something damage relevant).

You will need to get those answers from players that do advocate for it.

Also the community is not a Hive mind , those that want "efficiency" are usually not the same ones that say it's "for fun".

[Kaotyke]

The only issue I have with them is the ragdoll.

Why do I have to bounce, roll on a tangle of limbs like a boneless blob for over 5 seconds?

Cant I just... faceplant and get up? No ragdoll?

Even though I've had some hillarious ragdolling moments, they feel so out of place when it comes to fall down from Kdrives.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I cannot speak for others , I don't think I have advocated for any DPS related changes to k drives (may have suggested some trick mods that do something damage relevant).

You will need to get those answers from players that do advocate for it.

Also the community is not a Hive mind , those that want "efficiency" are usually not the same ones that say it's "for fun".

I totally agree.

I am speaking entirely about the larger picture, no single poster here can speak for anyone but themselves.

My point is that the arguments I see against the k-drive beyond controls, boils down to "archwing better because faster time to rewards".

Can we not have a thing in teh game that really is just a thing for Fun and not efficiency? 

[Jarriaga]

47 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Fun for me playing games never takes a back seat.

If I am not having Fun, I play a different game.

Why would you play a game that is not Fun, it makes no sense to me?

The whole reason for the k-drives appears to be Fun, not TTK, so other than the personal preference for tighter controls, where is the issue?

Why does a thing added for Fun have to be efficient?

Fun in the entire game is one thing. Fun when performing a specific action in said game at the expense of your effectiveness is a different thing. Sooner or later, the need to be effective will triumph over the specific fun action.

The issues K-drives have are a lot more than just the controls:

- You are cutting your arsenal to 1/3 because you can't melee or use primaries.

- You are prevented from using abilities. Many frames need for some abilities to be active in order to stay alive. That's without considering that many frames are entirely designed and built around their abilities and expected frequent casting over gunplay (Gauss, Lavos, Ember, game poster boy Excalibur).

This goes way beyond controls in tight corridors. The drawbacks for having "fun" by partaking the specific action of engaging in K-drive are simply massive. They are so unbalanced and tilted towards "fun at the expense of performance" that it is very hard for most people not to feel severely handicapped when partaking said action, thus they avoid it. 

Something doesn't have to be efficient in order to be fun, but the fun thing shouldn't massively decrease effectiveness by a such a wide margin either. Otherwise, it becomes a handicap rather than a simple preference. Might as well choose to remove all your mods and/or equip the dragon keys by the same token if having fun at the explicit expense of effectiveness is the goal. You can also try to play with one hand if you'd like just for the fun of it. And I write this as someone who supports the notion that developers have to protect players from themselves because players will otherwise optimize "fun" out of the game. 

41 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Can we not have a thing in teh game that really is just a thing for Fun and not efficiency? 

Not anymore. DE decided to make a K-drive frame with said K-drive being front and center to the frame's performance and identity, which is further amplified by the fact said K-Drive is the frame's only defensive ability. A defensive ability that locks you out of primaries and melee, mind you.  

Not to mention the financial implications of such a frame remaining as unpopular and disliked as it is now all the way to its future Prime Access. Otherwise ask Atlas; he had his Prime Access cut short by an entire month because he was not popular enough as to be kept active for 3 whole months vs. releasing Ivara Prime during peak holiday sales season. Thus, it is on DE's best interest to ensure people have compelling reasons for choosing to engage with the "fun" thing beyond fun alone. After all, I am certain there were many players who were having a lot of fun with Atlas, but not enough buyers as to sustain his Prime Access for another month.

[0_The_F00l]

7 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Can we not have a thing in teh game that really is just a thing for Fun and not efficiency? 

Not quite as simple as that,

due to how the game has evolved there is an almost "conditioning" that happens to players.

DE employs some tactics that inculcate FOMO and passive peer pressure, that can be subtle or very aggressive.

So players that are weak against it will wish to optimise the time they put in the game cause doing the same thing repeatedly gets very boring very fast.

They are so conditioned to it that any mechanic that doesn't help cut more seconds off is not worth utilising.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

6 hours ago, Butterfly85 said:

Ah yes, the op who recently made a rant post about how warframe was supposedly crashing his console (though the rest of the forum suspect it was a hardware overheating issue) and basically swore he wouldn't play it anymore. 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

I remember that. Guess he lied?

[Zimzala]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not quite as simple as that,

due to how the game has evolved there is an almost "conditioning" that happens to players.

DE employs some tactics that inculcate FOMO and passive peer pressure, that can be subtle or very aggressive.

So players that are weak against it will wish to optimise the time they put in the game cause doing the same thing repeatedly gets very boring very fast.

They are so conditioned to it that any mechanic that doesn't help cut more seconds off is not worth utilising.

So, now games have to be made for the weak minded rather than for Fun?

How is the human condition of people being unable to control their own actions DE's responsibility?

You make it sound like the game removes free will.

That's silly.

[0_The_F00l]

14 hours ago, Zimzala said:

So, now games have to be made for the weak minded rather than for Fun?

How is the human condition of people being unable to control their own actions DE's responsibility?

You make it sound like the game removes free will.

That's silly.

More like the game is made to take advantage of those seeking efficiency (that sounds more sinister than it actually is) while still trying to be fun, it just doesnt get the formula right to for all the players.

Didn't really say anything about DEs responsibility to cater to it , but they are using it for extending players game time.

It doesn't remove free will any more than other addictions or psychological compulsions.

It is silly , but its still something that happens in the game.

[OwlOfJune]

22 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

The only issue I have with them is the ragdoll.

Why do I have to bounce, roll on a tangle of limbs like a boneless blob for over 5 seconds?

Cant I just... faceplant and get up? No ragdoll?

Even though I've had some hillarious ragdolling moments, they feel so out of place when it comes to fall down from Kdrives.

Esp considering when we CAN ignore knockdown from usual gameplay with mods and whatnot, but in K-drive it is forced with ZERO way of competing against it.

 

It is particularly bad with Deimos, and I am convinced no one play tested any of races there because the amount of potential ragdoll there is way beyond any reason.

 

Honestly they feel like they are more susceptible to tiny rocks than IRL boards despite being supposedly 'hovering'

[Kaotyke]

7 minutes ago, OwlOfJune said:

Esp considering when we CAN ignore knockdown from usual gameplay with mods and whatnot, but in K-drive it is forced with ZERO way of competing against it.

I have to correct you on this. There is a mod that lowers the chance of you ragdolling out,

But its a R10 Uncommon Mod, with a big capacity and its 66% Chance.

But it doesnt help with colisions. Only failed tricks.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Perfect_Balance

[OwlOfJune]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I have to correct you on this. There is a mod that lowers the chance of you ragdolling out,

But its a R10 Uncommon Mod, with a big capacity and its 66% Chance.

But it doesnt help with colisions. Only failed tricks.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Perfect_Balance

So, not helpful in like 99% cases.

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, OwlOfJune said:

So, not helpful in like 99% cases.

Pretty much.

[Zimzala]

12 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

More like the game is made to take advantage of those seeking efficiency (that sounds more sinister than it actually is) while still trying to be fun, it just doesnt get the formula right to for all the players.

Didn't really say anything about DEs responsibility to cater to it , but they are using it for extending players game time.

It doesn't remove free will any more than other addictions or psychological compulsions.

It is silly , but its still something that happens in the game.

I don't expect a video game made for entertainment to appeal to all players.

Anyone that does is not thinking clearly, IME.

Therefore, to 'get the formula right for all players' is simply not possible, it is an intractable problem.

So, again, why should a game maker, a company created to make interactive entertainment, art if you will, be restrained in what they create just because some people cannot handle it?

There will always be people who are 'at risk' for 'things'.

IME, forcing artists to create things for the least common denominator only is called a Nanny State, and I have no desire to live there...

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

So, again, why should a game maker, a company created to make interactive entertainment, art if you will, be restrained in what they create just because some people cannot handle it?

To keep the business running.

[Tesseract7777]

The thing is Yareli and Merulina are clearly a test to:

A) See if there is a bit more enthusiasm for K-Drives than thought, if you reintroduce them in a fun enough way. 

B) See if K-Drives could potentially work, at least in some regular mission tilesets. 

Sadly, the answer to both of these experiments seems to be: Nah... 

So I am not expecting them to get much more attention any time soon. 

[Zimzala]

14 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

To keep the business running.

You cannot please all of teh people all of the time, any good business knows that.

So no, they do NOT have to cater to the least common denominator to keep the business running, that's silly, no business person in their right mind would take that as a logical argument.

Sure, any business has a target audience, but that target audience in this case does not, cannot, will not include 'all gamers' simply because that's an impossible task.

You are trying to dictate creative output for entertainment like it's a power company with regulations based on human safety.

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, Zimzala said:

You cannot please all of teh people all of the time, any good business knows that.

So no, they do NOT have to cater to the least common denominator to keep the business running, that's silly, no business person in their right mind would take that as a logical argument.

Sure, any business has a target audience, but that target audience in this case does not, cannot, will not include 'all gamers' simply because that's an impossible task.

You are trying to dictate creative output for entertainment like it's a power company with regulations based on human safety.

Not my decision mate , you will need to take it up with DE on why they run their business as they do. I can only tell you what is observed.

Them trying to cater to all type of players has always been a criticism.

Wide as an ocean and deep as a puddle with a few trenches once in a while is how it is sometimes described.

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So no, they do NOT have to cater to the least common denominator to keep the business running, that's silly, no business person in their right mind would take that as a logical argument.

They don't HAVE TO, but THEY DO. 

It's been a core part of their design philosophy since the beginning. You don't like it take it up with Steve Sinclair. You don't have to like it, just accept it if you are going to play the game and you will be a lot happier. I don't like a lot of things about their design philosophy, but I don't run the company, and my feedback may lead to a small change here or there, but no reasoned argument, angry screed, careful pleading or any combination thereof is ever going to get them to change their core design philosophy and standards. 

[Zimzala]

15 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

They don't HAVE TO, but THEY DO. 

It's been a core part of their design philosophy since the beginning. You don't like it take it up with Steve Sinclair. You don't have to like it, just accept it if you are going to play the game and you will be a lot happier. I don't like a lot of things about their design philosophy, but I don't run the company, and my feedback may lead to a small change here or there, but no reasoned argument, angry screed, careful pleading or any combination thereof is ever going to get them to change their core design philosophy and standards. 

Whatever, I guess I lost the plot, you seem to be saying they have to change and do what they already do?

I thought your whole point was that k-drives do not cater to everyone and therefore are bad?

[Tesseract7777]

8 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Whatever, I guess I lost the plot, you seem to be saying they have to change and do what they already do?

I thought your whole point was that k-drives do not cater to everyone and therefore are bad?

I don't believe I ever said any such thing. 

Please quote me. 

Edit: Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else, but Fass and Ris are not the same thing. 

[Raqiya]

While we're on the topic of making K-Drives faster, I would like to vouch for increasing Gauss Movement speed to be on par with Archwing. To even get close you would have to dedicate your build to solely speed and you can only stay at max speed for around 9 seconds.

But yeh, make K-Drives great again.

[Jarriaga]

58 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

The thing is Yareli and Merulina are clearly a test to:

A) See if there is a bit more enthusiasm for K-Drives than thought, if you reintroduce them in a fun enough way. 

B) See if K-Drives could potentially work, at least in some regular mission tilesets. 

Sadly, the answer to both of these experiments seems to be: Nah... 

So I am not expecting them to get much more attention any time soon. 

And DE don't seem to have the intention to fully rework Yareli if we go by the recent interview in Polygon. She's destined to rot thanks to her K-Drive.