Ever really think about crewmen?

[TARINunit9]

21 hours ago, SkeletonJehova said:

 was more just thinking of like what the water cooler talk must be like. "Yeah you hear about Tony in HR? Beheaded by ninjas, real shame"

I think DE made a trailer about that once

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

I think you missed the part where I was thinking Rell and the Man in the Wall are the same being.

Which, might actually still be true.

I suppose it depends on what you mean. Albrecht Entrati's Vitruvian tells the story of Albrecht meeting the Man in the Wall when entering the Void for the first time. In fact, Albrecht appears to be the one who coined the term "Man in the Wall", since Albrecht left him trapped within the wall separating the Void from real-space. This event almost certainly happened long before Rell was even born. Now, there's a question of how much of Rell was left by the time we encountered him in Chains of Harrow – Palladino seems to think that the Man in the Wall was possessing Rell, but perhaps Rell actually died or was subsumed by the Man in the Wall long ago and we were dealing with MITW the whole time (although the ending of the quest, where Rell goes to his 'rest', would seem to imply that Palladino was right). In any case, the entity known as the Man in the Wall, or something similar to it, has existed long before Rell and continues to exist after his apparent 'death', as evidenced by the multiple encounters we have with him.

6 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

I didn't read that comic, just working from what I saw in the game.

Where do you draw the line between gameplay and raw story then ? Without taking third party content into the equation. At which point, from what we see in game, has what I said been undeniably countered ?

I would say, if you're trying to follow the narrative of the game, then the story and the lore takes precedence even over what we see in game. We run Assassination missions over and over and over again to get the rare drops. How does this work narratively? Sure, you can make arguments that they're all clones and robots and get replaced immediately, but then why are we even fighting them? And that doesn't work for Alad V, who is neither a clone nor a robot. There are tens of millions of player accounts. Does that mean there are tens of millions of Tenno? Maybe. Maybe not. Is there a Tenno named "Fallen77"? That's what your name says when you pop into your Operator mode. Kind of a weird name for a person. What about "RazerXPrime" or "notyetawizard" or "Captain_Rocket505" (taking from the names in this thread)? Sometimes the things that happen in-game don't make sense from a story perspective. If you're interested in story or lore, pay attention to the transmissions and messages you receive, the cinematics you watch, and the text in-game (fragments, Synthesis entries, Codex entries, etc), not from player actions. DE can't control what their players do, so it makes no sense to take those actions as part of the story DE is trying to tell.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 14 heures, Kaotyke a dit :

Things that are made outside of quests, codex entries, events and dialog. Those paint a picture. But if its 3rd party content or not no longer maters when its acknowledged to have happened in-game.

Every time Vay Hek says that he wants to destroy Cetus and hunt people there for sport. And the Entry about Cetus tell that the Unum makes a disruption field around it that disables weapons and makes hostile ships crash. Who cant enter the town? Grineer. Corpus enter to trade, Solaris enter to trade. As long as you dont have hostile intentions, the Unum allows entry. I see no Grineer there.

The Assault Mission says that a colony is being bombarded by the canon you must disable.

Inaros Quest has them gun down Baro's mother.

Those dont paint a pretty picture about the Grineer as a whole.

Couldnt it be both things? Konzu even says "You pay me in red, I pay you in silver.", doing good is nice, but having extra incentive is also a bonus. 

We also went to those places because of distress signals (Deimos), Lotus' curiosity (Cetus), Fortuna by... chance? I'm not sure if Biz's transmitions in Discord are to be considered canon...

But at the start of those, we just went there, found someone who was in need of help: Saya, Loid, Thursby (now Legs) and just decided to help, then stuck around. 

I mean, we got there, helped expecting no reward and are now doing work, helping and getting paid for it. Its like asking why Forest Guards are paid. I mean, they MUST protect the wildlife of their areas because they want to protect them or because it pays nicely? Its a Black and White PoV.

Yeah. But what choice do we have? Warframes are made from Infested flesh. The Tenno powers are from a doubious (if not outright Eldritch) source, but... what else could be done? Warframes are effective combat platforms. We wouldnt be able to Sync with them safely without the Void Powers (Sylvana tried, and described it as an oily, tortured existence and couldnt hold it for long).

Can I suggest you play Overlord (no, not the anime)? Or Dungeons (to play as the  Abominable Dastarly Evil)?

_No, I don't care that there's one line that hints at the idea that x comic or y fanart is cannon. If it's not in the game, it's not something we can have a discussion around. It's like if there was a line in TLJ that hints at a novel being cannon, it doesn't change the movie as a all, and it should not be required to read it to judge the thing. The media has to stand on its own, period.

_Soooooo, your counterpoint to me saying "the tenno could be just as bad as the other factions" is to tell me "no because grineer are badmen that did bad things"...

You are aware that, because one side does bad things, it doesn't mean in any way shape or form that the other side is exonerated from doing bad deads themselves right ?

_That's your interpretation of what happens, maybe YOU the player were not expecting any reward, but that's really not what I'm seeing in the game. When I look at the facts, we have not done a SINGLE mission that doesn't profit us in one way or another, be it monetary, in the form of valuable items, to save our own skin or to preserve our position of power in the system.

I'm not saying that there can't be a part of good intentions, I'm saying that there are reasons to think that we COULD be just as bad as any other. So don't give me the only black and white speech buddy, I've been pointing out nuances from the start, while you seem to be defending the position that we are nothing but beacons of light and goodness, protectors of flowers and butterflies.

_It's not a matter of us having a choice in what we are, it's a matter of us being what we are, void eldritch psychic psycho angsty teens controlling zombie systemwiping fungus infested war puppets. We could very well be only acting out of good intentions, but we are dealing with such wild forces, even if our space kids had good intentions, who knows what could happen of us, or what those forces might want from us. Hiring us is not exactly risk free.

Gray areas man, gray areas

[Fallen77]

Il y a 11 heures, GrayArchon a dit :

I suppose it depends on what you mean. Albrecht Entrati's Vitruvian tells the story of Albrecht meeting the Man in the Wall when entering the Void for the first time. In fact, Albrecht appears to be the one who coined the term "Man in the Wall", since Albrecht left him trapped within the wall separating the Void from real-space. This event almost certainly happened long before Rell was even born. Now, there's a question of how much of Rell was left by the time we encountered him in Chains of Harrow – Palladino seems to think that the Man in the Wall was possessing Rell, but perhaps Rell actually died or was subsumed by the Man in the Wall long ago and we were dealing with MITW the whole time (although the ending of the quest, where Rell goes to his 'rest', would seem to imply that Palladino was right). In any case, the entity known as the Man in the Wall, or something similar to it, has existed long before Rell and continues to exist after his apparent 'death', as evidenced by the multiple encounters we have with him.

I would say, if you're trying to follow the narrative of the game, then the story and the lore takes precedence even over what we see in game. We run Assassination missions over and over and over again to get the rare drops. How does this work narratively? Sure, you can make arguments that they're all clones and robots and get replaced immediately, but then why are we even fighting them? And that doesn't work for Alad V, who is neither a clone nor a robot. There are tens of millions of player accounts. Does that mean there are tens of millions of Tenno? Maybe. Maybe not. Is there a Tenno named "Fallen77"? That's what your name says when you pop into your Operator mode. Kind of a weird name for a person. What about "RazerXPrime" or "notyetawizard" or "Captain_Rocket505" (taking from the names in this thread)? Sometimes the things that happen in-game don't make sense from a story perspective. If you're interested in story or lore, pay attention to the transmissions and messages you receive, the cinematics you watch, and the text in-game (fragments, Synthesis entries, Codex entries, etc), not from player actions. DE can't control what their players do, so it makes no sense to take those actions as part of the story DE is trying to tell.

Ok, some gameplay stuff doesn't make sense, big revelation, cool cool...

What have I said that can be invalidated by this ?

[Loza03]

10 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

_No, I don't care that there's one line that hints at the idea that x comic or y fanart is cannon. If it's not in the game, it's not something we can have a discussion around. It's like if there was a line in TLJ that hints at a novel being cannon, it doesn't change the movie as a all, and it should not be required to read it to judge the thing. The media has to stand on its own, period.

_Soooooo, your counterpoint to me saying "the tenno could be just as bad as the other factions" is to tell me "no because grineer are badmen that did bad things"...

You are aware that, because one side does bad things, it doesn't mean in any way shape or form that the other side is exonerated from doing bad deads themselves right ?

_That's your interpretation of what happens, maybe YOU the player were not expecting any reward, but that's really not what I'm seeing in the game. When I look at the facts, we have not done a SINGLE mission that doesn't profit us in one way or another, be it monetary, in the form of valuable items, to save our own skin or to preserve our position of power in the system.

I'm not saying that there can't be a part of good intentions, I'm saying that there are reasons to think that we COULD be just as bad as any other. So don't give me the only black and white speech buddy, I've been pointing out nuances from the start, while you seem to be defending the position that we are nothing but beacons of light and goodness, protectors of flowers and butterflies.

_It's not a matter of us having a choice in what we are, it's a matter of us being what we are, void eldritch psychic psycho angsty teens controlling zombie systemwiping fungus infested war puppets. We could very well be only acting out of good intentions, but we are dealing with such wild forces, even if our space kids had good intentions, who knows what could happen of us, or what those forces might want from us. Hiring us is not exactly risk free.

Gray areas man, gray areas

Vox Solaris. Specifically, we help Thursby and Fortuna before we get promised any kind of relative reward. Thursby even outright says he has nothing to give the Tenno but literal scrap. Eudico likewise only promises 'work' in expectation for payment after the Vox Solaris quest. She even tells us we can leave.

By consequence, everything the Grineer do and the vast majority of what the Corpus do is utterly reprehensible. Grineer hunt civilians for sport, resurrect ancient biological weapons that threaten everyone and they are cannibalistic. The Corpus have been shown as willing to vivisect living, sentient creatures, extinct whole species to jack up the price of their materials and indenture people to slavery. Their evil isn't in question.

Warframe's world is in a state of black and grey morality. The Tenno aren't good guys, because yes they also do truly awful things, but unlike the factions, they have never been depicted as targeting the innocent, for pay or not. At most, they get caught in the crossfire (such as any Solaris on board sabotage objectives), but even then, in Railjack the Tenno limit the destruction wrought upon ice mines or comet shard launchers to something survivable because there are Solaris aboard. 

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

_No, I don't care that there's one line that hints at the idea that x comic or y fanart is cannon. If it's not in the game, it's not something we can have a discussion around. It's like if there was a line in TLJ that hints at a novel being cannon, it doesn't change the movie as a all, and it should not be required to read it to judge the thing. The media has to stand on its own, period.

_Soooooo, your counterpoint to me saying "the tenno could be just as bad as the other factions" is to tell me "no because grineer are badmen that did bad things"...

You are aware that, because one side does bad things, it doesn't mean in any way shape or form that the other side is exonerated from doing bad deads themselves right ?

_That's your interpretation of what happens, maybe YOU the player were not expecting any reward, but that's really not what I'm seeing in the game. When I look at the facts, we have not done a SINGLE mission that doesn't profit us in one way or another, be it monetary, in the form of valuable items, to save our own skin or to preserve our position of power in the system.

I'm not saying that there can't be a part of good intentions, I'm saying that there are reasons to think that we COULD be just as bad as any other. So don't give me the only black and white speech buddy, I've been pointing out nuances from the start, while you seem to be defending the position that we are nothing but beacons of light and goodness, protectors of flowers and butterflies.

_It's not a matter of us having a choice in what we are, it's a matter of us being what we are, void eldritch psychic psycho angsty teens controlling zombie systemwiping fungus infested war puppets. We could very well be only acting out of good intentions, but we are dealing with such wild forces, even if our space kids had good intentions, who knows what could happen of us, or what those forces might want from us. Hiring us is not exactly risk free.

Gray areas man, gray areas

You really want to be right, dont you?

All I'm really seeing you going "Ok, but..." and when I counterpoint, you go "Ok, but..." again, while going around in gameplay elements as a form to get yourself to be justified. And now you are going about "Its my interpretation" (kinda reminded me of EA's disagreeing with the "Interpretation of the Law" of a country from a few years ago). Going in gameplay mechanic again about "we have not done a single mission that has not profited us" and mixing player incentive with in-universe ones again.

And now are saying I, the PLAYER, go in expecting no reward, as if not a single Quest in any game, even less a looter, ever not given any reward on Quest competition in some form or another and the in-universe character actually is expecting reward.

Now, you seem to think I am saying such thing as "beacons of light". But while I've put out things that happen in-universe that paint the Tenno in a better light than the other factions and how they go around helping others, like Thrusby, who had nothing to offer. Loid, a random distress signal. Saya, who was just looking for her missing husband. The Myconians, who had their colonists kidnapped and Glast asked for our help.

You outright ignore those as if I never said them and go around throwing speculations, your own headcanon with nothing to back them up with things that happens in-universe, that is not a gameplay mechanic, without any kind of proof and dismissing other sources that have been canonized in your quest of "to be right". 

Dude, you are wrong. Any person who actually pays attention to the story and what is being talked can see that.

[Fallen77]

il y a 8 minutes, Kaotyke a dit :

You really want to be right, dont you?

All I'm really seeing you going "Ok, but..." and when I counterpoint, you go "Ok, but..." again, while going around in gameplay elements as a form to get yourself to be justified. And now you are going about "Its my interpretation" (kinda reminded me of EA's disagreeing with the "Interpretation of the Law" of a country from a few years ago). Going in gameplay mechanic again about "we have not done a single mission that has not profited us" and mixing player incentive with in-universe ones again.

And now are saying I, the PLAYER, go in expecting no reward, as if not a single Quest in any game, even less a looter, ever not given any reward on Quest competition in some form or another and the in-universe character actually is expecting reward.

Now, you seem to think I am saying such thing as "beacons of light". But while I've put out things that happen in-universe that paint the Tenno in a better light than the other factions and how they go around helping others, like Thrusby, who had nothing to offer. Loid, a random distress signal. Saya, who was just looking for her missing husband. The Myconians, who had their colonists kidnapped and Glast asked for our help.

You outright ignore those as if I never said them and go around throwing speculations, your own headcanon with nothing to back them up with things that happens in-universe, that is not a gameplay mechanic, without any kind of proof and dismissing other sources that have been canonized in your quest of "to be right". 

Dude, you are wrong. Any person who actually pays attention to the story and what is being talked can see that.

Oy, that's the point of having a discussion, you can get down from your high horse now.

Of course I'm gonna try to be right until proven otherwise. If we're not trying to convince each other, then we are just exchanging inconcequential statements, might as well talk to a wall if you don't intend to convince me that you are right.

Your comparison with EA is inaccurate and dishonest and you know it.

Well yeah I'm using my motivation over the ones of my tenno because, surprisingly, it is very difficult to gage the motivations of someone that never states his motivation. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT OUR SPACE KID THINKS BECAUSE HE NEVER SAYS ANYTHING. So how can I be mixing motivations, when there is no other motivation than my own ? This is mixing gameplay with lore ? Using my own motives to fill the utter void that the game presents me with ? Sure, if you say so.

We can argue on how our motivations as players can vary, but can you give me a uncontestable version of what drives our space kid ? Beyond surface level stuff, why does she/he do whatever he does (outside of main quests where we're trying to get back lotus and such, because yeah it is pretty clear here, more talking of his view of the factions, why he does what he does outside of main quests, all that jazz)

Now, you see, I'm very much open to recognize when I'm wrong. Like for example, I've been too fast saying that we never do stuff solely out of the good of our hearts (legs and others). I was wrong, I should have instead said "the overwhelming majority of times, not always".

"Throwing speculations"... well... yes, that's very much what I intended to do, to put some light on things that COULD very well be. When I say stuff like "the tenno could be way worst than we'd be lead to think", it's a thing that very much could be inserted into the universe, there are no proof of the contrary.

But when you say, seemingly as a counterpoint to this : "grineer are badmen"... that's just nonsense whataboutism. It doesn't disprove what I said in the slightest and isn't what I'm talking about. And just to make sure, because others seem to believe I need to be convinced that grineer are badmen : I KNOW THAT GRINEER ARE BADMEN, YOU CAN ALL STOP, I KNOW, I AIN'T THAT STUPID.

Now, headcannon ? Without any proof ? Again, you are not saying a-ny-thing here. Are you gonna be specific ? Are you gonna tell me what it is that I said that is incorrect and why it is so ? 

And you'll have to start by demonstrating that I made actual claims, and not just speculations. When I say things like "who knows ? Maybe the ostrons that were killed in the intro cutscene were the agressors." I am not claiming that it is true, and I'd argue myself that it is very unlikely, it's just one more way that I'm pointing out that things may not be as clear cut as it seems, there is technically room for it to be true. Even more when you consider that it's Natah of all people narrating this, how much can we trust anything she says ?

And finally, AGAIN, no, I will not accept third party lore, even if there's a line of dialogue ingame that makes it cannon. I have not touched third party lore, so for me it's just a line of dialogue that doesn't mean anything. For the sake of us two having a conversation, I'd like you to work with the same base I'm working with, simple as that.

Because I have paid attention to lore ingame, and from what I see, nothing I said can be outright proven wrong. Now if you'd like to stop stating that I'm wrong without substantiating anything, and start presenting me some actual constructed arguments, I'll be more than happy to go back on what I said.

Finally, don't you think it's funny that, for someone that was previously preaching that not everything is black or white, you seem to have quite an aversion to the idea of seeing nuances in the morality of the lore. And don't you think it's funny that, for someone who berated me for being on a suposit "quest to be right", you seem quite extremely insistant on me being wrong. Quite funny, quite funny.

 

[GrayArchon]

13 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

_No, I don't care that there's one line that hints at the idea that x comic or y fanart is cannon. If it's not in the game, it's not something we can have a discussion around. It's like if there was a line in TLJ that hints at a novel being cannon, it doesn't change the movie as a all, and it should not be required to read it to judge the thing. The media has to stand on its own, period.

If the writers and storytellers at DE didn't want to tell certain narratives, then they wouldn't. Therefore, if there is story that exists outside of the game, it is part of the same universe, narrative, and lore, and should be looked at. You can wish that the media stands on its own, but it doesn't. DE has experimented a lot with nonstandard methods of narrative, and video games are probably the best medium for such avenues.

It's not really equivalent to the Star Wars canon, which consists of many writers all trying to fill in their own corners of the same universe. There are very few people who have a major hand in any lore developments in Warframe (four, by my count: Steve Sinclair, Cam Rogers, Adrian Bott, and maybe Ryan Mole). The Warframe: GHOULS comic books, although published through an independent company, were written by Steve. I don't know how you can argue that they're not canon when every word in them is straight from the Creative Director of the game.

13 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

_Soooooo, your counterpoint to me saying "the tenno could be just as bad as the other factions" is to tell me "no because grineer are badmen that did bad things"...

You are aware that, because one side does bad things, it doesn't mean in any way shape or form that the other side is exonerated from doing bad deads themselves right ?

What is the point you're trying to make here? If you're saying the Tenno do bad things, that's fair and we can discuss that. If you're saying the Tenno are the "Bad Guys" of the story, I think that's patently false. The Tenno are the protagonists (from a narrative perspective, you the player are one) and their intentions, when they are referenced, are always portrayed as good, especially in later additions to the story.

13 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

When I look at the facts, we have not done a SINGLE mission that doesn't profit us in one way or another, be it monetary, in the form of valuable items, to save our own skin or to preserve our position of power in the system.

The Tenno begins the Jordas Precept quest to save Cephalon Jordas solely because Jordas sent out a distress call. Although Jordas tries to imply that the Tenno only helped him to get Atlas parts, a) he's not making much sense at that point, and b) we start the quest before we hear of any reward. Ordis is also quite insistent that the Tenno are not motivated by greed during that quest, and he's the character who knows your character the best.

13 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Ok, some gameplay stuff doesn't make sense, big revelation, cool cool...

What have I said that can be invalidated by this ?

I didn't invalidate anything you said. The first part of the comment to which you're replying was directed at another person, and the second part was answering a question you asked.

9 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

it is very difficult to gage the motivations of someone that never states his motivation. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT OUR SPACE KID THINKS BECAUSE HE NEVER SAYS ANYTHING. So how can I be mixing motivations, when there is no other motivation than my own ?

First of all, @Kaotyke (and I, in this comment) gave you examples of actions the Tenno took that give insight into their motivations. Sometimes it is easier than other times to infer motivations from actions.

Second, here are some things your character says during The Second Dream to explain their motivations:

• "This kid had a boy by the throat. I didn't think it was funny at all."
• "I felt guilty that I was alive, but we could do things, extraordinary things. Maybe there was a reason we survived?"
• "When they tried to treat us like rats I stood up to them. I wasn't going to let them divide us after what we'd been through."
• "I wish I could have saved them. I wish I could have taken their fear away."
• "When they executed her… well… I could not let that go."
• "I took up the sword to protect those in need."
• "I wanted to punish those who abused their power and now I had a way."
• "I remembered what it was like to be afraid, to be weak. I vowed never to forget that, never to abuse what I had been given. I had a code."
• "I remembered what fear did. How it turned them against us. I vowed never to be controlled by it. I was going to live, or die, with honour."

Now, this is a dialogue tree, so it's possible your character didn't say some of these things, but they did have to say at least one of them. And they all show a more or less positive moral framework, even the dialogue options I didn't list here. So, during The Second Dream, your character actually lays out their motivations very clearly.

EDIT: You know what, I'm also going to add some more dialogue from the Tenno, specifically the random lines your character will say during EVERY MISSION.

• "We will bring honour to the Tenno."
• "The Grineer have no honour."
• "The Grineer prey on the weak, but we prey on the Grineer."
• "These Corpus remind me of the Orokin – selfish, greedy."
• "We'll put an end to this Corpus greed."
• "We fought with honour."
• "Fear will not control me."

The moral judgements of the Corpus and Grineer voiced by the Tenno are evidence of the Tenno's own moral code; if the Tenno did not value honour; they would not care that the Grineer lack it, for example.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

EDIT: You know what, I'm also going to add some more dialogue from the Tenno, specifically the random lines your character will say during EVERY MISSION.

• "We will bring honour to the Tenno."
• "The Grineer have no honour."
• "The Grineer prey on the weak, but we prey on the Grineer."
• "These Corpus remind me of the Orokin – selfish, greedy."
• "We'll put an end to this Corpus greed."
• "We fought with honour."
• "Fear will not control me."

The moral judgements of the Corpus and Grineer voiced by the Tenno are evidence of the Tenno's own moral code; if the Tenno did not value honour; they would not care that the Grineer lack it, for example.

That still only comes down to the PoV of the tenno. That doesnt mean they are good, or bad for that matter. Honor is also a very wide concept, since it fully depends on the culture it belongs to, it isnt universal. We can see with Kahl that the tenno are factually wrong regarding Grineer having no honor, because someone without honor wouldnt do what Kahl does for his clan/tribe/army/squad/whatever. Hek, even Vay Hek shows signs of honor in that event.

And the tenno talking about honor is probably the biggest joke of the game. Yes it is so honorable to drop a WMD onto something that literally cannot stop it... It might be tenno honor, but that doesnt mean it is actually honorable. Also, how are the tenno not greedy? How can they actually call the orokin that without searching their own flaws, like acting as mercs, where the side that pays best gets their services, even if that means helping the invading occupying power. 

Also, what is the difference between Grineer preying on the weak compared to the tenno preying on the Grineer? Why is it more acceptable that the tenno prey on something weak (compared to them)?

[Sloan441]

On 2021-07-26 at 8:21 PM, SkeletonJehova said:

 "Yeah you hear about Tony in HR? Beheaded by ninjas, real shame"

HR. 

This is how you know the tenno really do have your back. 

[Sloan441]

On 2021-07-27 at 1:18 AM, Sinekanter said:

Tbh, I feel pretty bad when I kill the crewmen, who do the 'leaning against wall/sitting around' idle animation, because I feel like I am killing someone on their lunch break.

I don't really feel bad about terminating their contracts. After all, they are part of an organization that does not have your best interests at heart. Far from it. 

On the other hand, if they're not shooting at me, I'm inclined to ignore them. I have things to do, people (more or less) to see, and places to be. Don't get in the way. 

Now, if I happen to be Saryn that day and they're in the AO...well, sucks to be them. 

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still only comes down to the PoV of the tenno. That doesnt mean they are good, or bad for that matter. Honor is also a very wide concept, since it fully depends on the culture it belongs to, it isnt universal. We can see with Kahl that the tenno are factually wrong regarding Grineer having no honor, because someone without honor wouldnt do what Kahl does for his clan/tribe/army/squad/whatever. Hek, even Vay Hek shows signs of honor in that event.

And the tenno talking about honor is probably the biggest joke of the game. Yes it is so honorable to drop a WMD onto something that literally cannot stop it... It might be tenno honor, but that doesnt mean it is actually honorable.

Yes, "honour" can be interpreted by culture, but that's not the point of discussion. The discussion was about motivation being honour vs greed. According to the dialogue in the game, the Tenno are not motivated by greed but by their interpretation of honour. Whether or not you think their actions are honourable is a different discussion.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, how are the tenno not greedy? How can they actually call the orokin that without searching their own flaws, like acting as mercs, where the side that pays best gets their services, even if that means helping the invading occupying power.

Ordis insists during the Jordas Precept quest that the Tenno is not motivated by greed, and he's the character who knows the Tenno (character) best. The Tenno's dialogue strongly implies that they are not motivated by greed. Any assertions to the contrary comes from enemies (Sargas Ruk, Jordas) who are not being intellectually honest. As to your reference to Invasion missions, there are moral considerations to each side as outlined in the Gradivus Dilemma that were stated as the basis for the Tenno's decision. And using the words "invading occupying power" is misleading in this situation; while it accurately describes actions, the Grineer and Corpus both regularly act as "invading occupying powers" and neither of them are innocent, so conflicts between them really can't be put in terms of oppressed vs oppressor.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, what is the difference between Grineer preying on the weak compared to the tenno preying on the Grineer? Why is it more acceptable that the tenno prey on something weak (compared to them)?

The Grineer prey upon the weak because they can. The Tenno prey upon the Grineer not because they can, but because the Grineer have already preyed upon the weak. That's why the line is structured the way it is. The Tenno are enacting justice/retribution/revenge against the Grineer, which fits with their idea of "honour". The two halves of the sentences are not moral equivalents. The Grineer are acting unjustly, and the Tenno act justly to restore the balance (which, as an aside, has always been their overarching goal).

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Yes, "honour" can be interpreted by culture, but that's not the point of discussion. The discussion was about motivation being honour vs greed. According to the dialogue in the game, the Tenno are not motivated by greed but by their interpretation of honour. Whether or not you think their actions are honourable is a different discussion.

Ordis insists during the Jordas Precept quest that the Tenno is not motivated by greed, and he's the character who knows the Tenno (character) best. The Tenno's dialogue strongly implies that they are not motivated by greed. Any assertions to the contrary comes from enemies (Sargas Ruk, Jordas) who are not being intellectually honest. As to your reference to Invasion missions, there are moral considerations to each side as outlined in the Gradivus Dilemma that were stated as the basis for the Tenno's decision. And using the words "invading occupying power" is misleading in this situation; while it accurately describes actions, the Grineer and Corpus both regularly act as "invading occupying powers" and neither of them are innocent, so conflicts between them really can't be put in terms of oppressed vs oppressor.

The Grineer prey upon the weak because they can. The Tenno prey upon the Grineer not because they can, but because the Grineer have already preyed upon the weak. That's why the line is structured the way it is. The Tenno are enacting justice/retribution/revenge against the Grineer, which fits with their idea of "honour". The two halves of the sentences are not moral equivalents. The Grineer are acting unjustly, and the Tenno act justly to restore the balance (which, as an aside, has always been their overarching goal).

But all of that is still only based on the tenno PoV. It doesnt mean that their point of view is right, just, good, evil or whatever. My point wasnt just about the quoted tenno quotes, it was also about you saying that you think it is patently false that the tenno might be the "bad guy". Them being the protagonist doesnt change that, it is simply another version of "history is written by the winners". Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying the tenno are the bad guys, but there is a probability that they are. Most of Sol that has ran into them in a negative way look at them as enemies. Heck, we have 6 rival syndicates, we decide to help 3-4 of them even if we know it will piss two of them of royaly. We also go behind the backs of those we work with at times and help the others, even though we know the main one will not like it. And we do this nearly only for payment.

I mean, if you look at the WF universe the setup is similar to that of a feudal society on a system wide scale. That means that the Grineer and Corpus arent naturally bad for occupying territories. Heck, the corpus arent really occupying anything that is civilian in the sense that the Grineer does. The Corpus are mostly welcome as traders, which can be seen in Cetus, a society that isnt of "Corpus origin" even. Sure, how they treat the Solaris is a different question, but that is part of how their society is structured politically and economically, it may not be right, but the same can be applied to many "advanced" countries of our own time aswell. So if you look at things like invasions, where we actually help the Grineer, it is a very odd choice, since very likely the Corpus are just there to set up a research facility in the middle of nowhere (impacting no one) or to seek out trade stations (like Cetus). Which would make lives better for those potentially opressed by the Grinner, or keep the lives good if they fend of the invading Grineer.

They dont prey on the weak because they can, they prey on them, or well conquor them in order to turn scattered colonies across Sol into a single empire to avoid the tenno reawakening. Atleast that is what Lotus has forcefed us. And how much of what she has said is actually true? We know through Warframe lore that the Grineer along with the Corpus would potentially pose a threat to the Sentient if they were to return, since their technology is very "low tech" for the time, which is why warframes were also built, to go back to the more basic since the sentients adapted well to more advanced tech. And what would be better than having demonkid puppets with toys destroying that threat before the sentients return?

[Lullypumpsie]

[[DE]Drew]

And so I cry sometimes
When I'm lying in bed just to get it all out
What's in my head
And I, I am feeling a little peculiar

And so I wake in the morning
And I step outside
And I take a deep breath and I get real high
And I scream from the top of my lungs
"What's going on?"

[kyori]

Try to slow down sometimes during mission and you will find some corpus holding the photo of their family in their hands, lying on the floor.... mercilessly killed by you.

[GrayArchon]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But all of that is still only based on the tenno PoV. It doesnt mean that their point of view is right, just, good, evil or whatever. My point wasnt just about the quoted tenno quotes, it was also about you saying that you think it is patently false that the tenno might be the "bad guy". Them being the protagonist doesnt change that, it is simply another version of "history is written by the winners". Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying the tenno are the bad guys, but there is a probability that they are. Most of Sol that has ran into them in a negative way look at them as enemies.

Again, I'm not contesting the different perspectives on the Tenno's actions in a moral vacuum. All I'm saying is that the Tenno are not "the Bad Guys" in the sense that they're not the worst faction. There are others (Grineer, Corpus) that do worse things than the Tenno and for worse reasons. That's it. I am not saying that everything the Tenno do is right; I'm just saying that others do more bad stuff. That's what I mean by "good guys" and "bad guys", because a video game like this has simplified morality. This is not the kind of moral analysis I would use for a real-life scenario.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And we do this nearly only for payment.

This is really the key point that I disagree on. I've already cited my reasoning and evidence in my earlier comments, so I won't repeat them. I'll just push back on this comment for clarity's sake.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, if you look at the WF universe the setup is similar to that of a feudal society on a system wide scale. That means that the Grineer and Corpus arent naturally bad for occupying territories.

From my point of view, a feudal society is inherently bad, since it's incredibly unequal, inequitable, and has severely limited socioeconomic mobility. And occupying territory that already has people living in it is also bad, since it removes those peoples' rights to self-determination. I think these are fairly reasonable moral positions that enjoy wide acceptance, but I could be wrong.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Heck, the corpus arent really occupying anything that is civilian in the sense that the Grineer does. The Corpus are mostly welcome as traders, which can be seen in Cetus, a society that isnt of "Corpus origin" even. Sure, how they treat the Solaris is a different question, but that is part of how their society is structured politically and economically, it may not be right, but the same can be applied to many "advanced" countries of our own time aswell.

The Corpus are arms dealers, manufacturing and selling weapons to all sides in a conflict. It's all but stated that they will instigate conflicts in order to generate sales. According to the Perrin Sequence, a core Corpus philosophy is that "conflict must be capitalised upon". Nef Anyo (who to Parvos Granum represents the epitome of what the Corpus has become, so it's reasonable to look at him as an individual) cheats independent colonists out of their money with his televangelistic screeds and his very rigged gambling arena (in addition to his treatment of the Solaris, which is possibly the worst thing he does, but you've mentioned that already). Read the Codex descriptions of the Index Brokers to see how violent oppression of colonists is sort of baked into their whole capitalism schtick. There are many other pieces of evidence that the Corpus as a whole are bad actors on a massive scale, even though they're not exterminating colonies outright as the Grineer do.

Of course, as you say, there are many parallels to groups or factions in our modern world, but I don't think that's exculpatory; I think rather that it's condemnation of those elements of our modern world.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So if you look at things like invasions, where we actually help the Grineer, it is a very odd choice, since very likely the Corpus are just there to set up a research facility in the middle of nowhere (impacting no one) or to seek out trade stations (like Cetus). Which would make lives better for those potentially opressed by the Grinner, or keep the lives good if they fend of the invading Grineer.

Corpus research stations in the past have been involved in horrific human (or the Warframe equivalent) experimentation, and as far as we can see are overwhelmingly oriented towards weapons research, which feeds into a core element of why their faction is so bad (arms profiteering, referred to by Nihil as "necrocapitalism").

Examples: Fusion Moa research, Alad V (multiple instances), Nef Anyo during the Deadlock Protocol.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They dont prey on the weak because they can, they prey on them, or well conquor them in order to turn scattered colonies across Sol into a single empire to avoid the tenno reawakening.

"Empire-building" is also not a great thing to do. And why are they trying to stop the Tenno? What's the original sin here? The Tenno only want to stop the Grineer because the Grineer are doing bad things (conquest), but you're saying the Grineer are doing those things to… stop the Tenno? That's roundabout. If the Grineer stopped trying to kill the Tenno and stopped exterminating colonies and basically just left everyone alone, the Tenno would have no reason to fight them, so self-defence doesn't really work as an argument here.

Also, the Anti Moa Synthesis entry lists Grineer atrocities occurring after the Collapse, when the Tenno were in cryosleep, so it can hardly be seen as a reaction to the Tenno.

[Katinka]

On 2021-07-27 at 1:15 AM, SkeletonJehova said:

There's the semantics of how killing grineer could be wrong considering their mental state and what not but I mean end of the day they're the most generic kind of evil force.

I think you are doing a great disservice to the autonomy of a clone.  Many people seem to speak as if clones are no better than robots on a production line but really they are closer to twins but born later.

On 2021-07-27 at 1:15 AM, SkeletonJehova said:

You really think each and every crewman is evil? I mean each and every grineer is by design, the ones who aren't get euthanized or run away to join steel meridian, they're considered faulty.

Do you think that all those faulty clones that wish to run away do so immediately and don't spend any time trying to pass as regular, loyal troopers?  Many of those so-called Grineer could be those who have doubts but either don't realise exactly what those doubts mean or are waiting for a better time to come out.

[SilentMobius]

4 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Again, I'm not contesting the different perspectives on the Tenno's actions in a moral vacuum. All I'm saying is that the Tenno are not "the Bad Guys" in the sense that they're not the worst faction. There are others (Grineer, Corpus) that do worse things than the Tenno and for worse reasons. That's it. I am not saying that everything the Tenno do is right; I'm just saying that others do more bad stuff. That's what I mean by "good guys" and "bad guys", because a video game like this has simplified morality. This is not the kind of moral analysis I would use for a real-life scenario...

This is all pure gold, but I'd just like to add one little meta commentary in that we have Word-Of-God on the issue

DE Steve Devstream 13 (1:00:46):

Quote

And I would say, y'know, they [the Tenno] are 3 dimensional and complex. But they are not the bad guys

 

[Venyxos]

On 2021-07-26 at 8:15 PM, SkeletonJehova said:

What about the corpus though? 

I think about it all the time... Like from the first time I popped the helmet off a Crewman and saw a regular face, lmao

We've all wheeled and dealed debt bonds... How many of them are just working those off? Trying to keep their kids of a shelf perhaps?

I always side w/ the Corpus when given a chance in invasions... Their general foot soldier? Probably at worst a "collaborator" or "lost"... Then again - it is war (but with who? and for what?)... The grineer could be rehabilitated, but only once the queens are over-thrown... Most Corpus soldiers on the other hand simply need to question their religion in order to become potential revolutionaries themselves, like Vox Solaris

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

I think you are doing a great disservice to the autonomy of a clone.  Many people seem to speak as if clones are no better than robots on a production line but really they are closer to twins but born later.

It's true in the Grineer's case though. The overwhelming majority are genetically and culturally programmed to be fanatically loyal to the queens, and not question orders. They're not clones like how the Star Wars Clones are - they're effectively just (mostly) biological robots, and that's how the Orokin designed them.

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

Do you think that all those faulty clones that wish to run away do so immediately and don't spend any time trying to pass as regular, loyal troopers?  Many of those so-called Grineer could be those who have doubts but either don't realise exactly what those doubts mean or are waiting for a better time to come out.

Bear in mind 'Pass as regular loyal troopers' involves willingly and knowingly commiting genocide, slavery and cannibalism on a daily basis. Clearly, not a deal breaker for the Tenno, but in terms of the morality spectrum, even the rest of the Warframe universe - which, as noted frequently, is hardly place of strong moral fiber -  seems to look at Cannibalism as immoral since the Steel Meridian RJ crew member feels the need to justify the continued practice.

[Killa_Byte]

not really that #$%^ in the game !!!!!!!!!!

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

When you said crew men, I thought you meant the guys you could hire for your Railjack.

It immediately made me think about how unsatisfied and ready to unionise my crew must be.

I work them like absolute dogs for a couple nights every few weeks. And inbetween they are literally just standing on call for sometimes months at a time. Waiting for work.

I’m the worst employer in the whole damn galaxy.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

It's been made clear in the game, at least to me, that the Tenno are good guys. The Tenno have a history that we're still learning about their origins, but we do know that they eventually couldn't stand the corruption of the Orokin any longer, and turned on them. (The Orokin were very evil, from all I've seen of them.) After they finish this act of heroism, freeing the Sol system from the oppressive thumbs (the massive ones on their right arms), the Tenno appear to have gone into self-imposed exile, entering Cryo-stasis - becoming something like Ronin (I use this in reference to a samurai without a shogun as the Orokin would have been the shoguns) - they don't take over in place of the Orokin.

It is implied, if not directly stated - bad memory on my part: because the Grineer were finding and destroying Warframes that still had Tenno connected via transference, and could do harm to the Tenno themselves through this, the Lotus begins searching for Tenno to rescue them and recruit them into her network of operatives who were acting to maintain a balance between the warring factions so neither of them would gain dominance and attain total control of the Sol system. As long as the Grineer and Corpus are fighting each other, they're not able to direct their entire forces at the remaining civilian populations. Tenno activities, directed by the Lotus, were said to have the goal of maintaining this balance (I'd bring in the quotes here if I could remember the sources) and not to entirely destroy either warring faction, simply acting in the shadows in key locations to prevent dominance of either.

At first, the Tenno start out taking missions from the Lotus (sorta like Ninja contracts, if we're going with the "ninja's play free" theme, and can make a Naruto-style connection), because she saved our lives (waking us in time for us to escape from Vor), and has shown us the horrors that the different warring factions are inflicting upon the innocent citizens of the Sol system. As the story progresses, we begin to just help where there is a need, such as responding to distress calls from various civilian populations. We don't get to see enough of these civilian populations in Warframe, IMO... and it would help to see all the good we're doing in who we're protecting, outside of the 3 open world hub cities, and the Myconians.

The ONLY enemy units I question the morality of killing, are the human corpus crews, since they're mainly brainwashed, apparently... (I could have sworn there was lore, that they were purpose-bred and essentially programmed meat machines - clones like the Grineer, but not suffering from clone rot.) as far as we've seen of Veso, which breaks what I knew of the existing lore. However, if an enemy is shooting at me, they're hostile in my book, and the enemy factions are always acting in some manner that is aggressive, and the Tenno are acting in defense of either those who cannot defend themselves (the reason we take on the mission contract for them), or even self-defense.

You can RP being some evil murdering killbot mercenary devil child all you like, but I'm RPing a hero, and the story is aligning with my view, so I'll stand by it.

[Berserkerkitten]

I know I'm in the minority here, and I'm being terribly boring, but I really don't care about the crewmen or anyone else, for that matter. I don't stop to think about whether or not some rando I killed in a videogame had an imaginary family or hopes and dreams. I care more about the stuff he drops and whether I can turn it into platinum. Which isn't to say I'm not looking forward to seeing their point of view when the new content update finally arrives. It's just not gonna make me feel sorry for them.