Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Ever really think about crewmen?


Circmfission

Recommended Posts

The conversation reminded me of a theory in psychology about how wearing a mask of sorts often decreases empathy and creates a dissociative effect. Kind of why many warrior cultures ask their soldiers to hide or paint their face to appear as monsters or as demons when going to war. Same principle applies to inhibitions, kind of why raunchy parties have people wearing masks.

The reverse is also true, nobody minds having storm troopers mowed down because they are all wearing bulky helmets that hide their appearance. If they looked like regular people, the films would have taken a different tone. 

My theory is that Neptune has a population of at least a few billion. Most Corpusians do backbreaking work not to dissimilar from the Solaris (some become Solaris due to falling into debt). The military route is one of the more lucrative jobs, assuming you want to risk Grineer raids and the occasional space ninja. Still, it's a small price to pay for a clean bed and a good meal at the end of the day. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Again, I'm not contesting the different perspectives on the Tenno's actions in a moral vacuum. All I'm saying is that the Tenno are not "the Bad Guys" in the sense that they're not the worst faction. There are others (Grineer, Corpus) that do worse things than the Tenno and for worse reasons. That's it. I am not saying that everything the Tenno do is right; I'm just saying that others do more bad stuff. That's what I mean by "good guys" and "bad guys", because a video game like this has simplified morality. This is not the kind of moral analysis I would use for a real-life scenario.

This is really the key point that I disagree on. I've already cited my reasoning and evidence in my earlier comments, so I won't repeat them. I'll just push back on this comment for clarity's sake.

From my point of view, a feudal society is inherently bad, since it's incredibly unequal, inequitable, and has severely limited socioeconomic mobility. And occupying territory that already has people living in it is also bad, since it removes those peoples' rights to self-determination. I think these are fairly reasonable moral positions that enjoy wide acceptance, but I could be wrong.

The Corpus are arms dealers, manufacturing and selling weapons to all sides in a conflict. It's all but stated that they will instigate conflicts in order to generate sales. According to the Perrin Sequence, a core Corpus philosophy is that "conflict must be capitalised upon". Nef Anyo (who to Parvos Granum represents the epitome of what the Corpus has become, so it's reasonable to look at him as an individual) cheats independent colonists out of their money with his televangelistic screeds and his very rigged gambling arena (in addition to his treatment of the Solaris, which is possibly the worst thing he does, but you've mentioned that already). Read the Codex descriptions of the Index Brokers to see how violent oppression of colonists is sort of baked into their whole capitalism schtick. There are many other pieces of evidence that the Corpus as a whole are bad actors on a massive scale, even though they're not exterminating colonies outright as the Grineer do.

Of course, as you say, there are many parallels to groups or factions in our modern world, but I don't think that's exculpatory; I think rather that it's condemnation of those elements of our modern world.

Corpus research stations in the past have been involved in horrific human (or the Warframe equivalent) experimentation, and as far as we can see are overwhelmingly oriented towards weapons research, which feeds into a core element of why their faction is so bad (arms profiteering, referred to by Nihil as "necrocapitalism").

Examples: Fusion Moa research, Alad V (multiple instances), Nef Anyo during the Deadlock Protocol.

"Empire-building" is also not a great thing to do. And why are they trying to stop the Tenno? What's the original sin here? The Tenno only want to stop the Grineer because the Grineer are doing bad things (conquest), but you're saying the Grineer are doing those things to… stop the Tenno? That's roundabout. If the Grineer stopped trying to kill the Tenno and stopped exterminating colonies and basically just left everyone alone, the Tenno would have no reason to fight them, so self-defence doesn't really work as an argument here.

Also, the Anti Moa Synthesis entry lists Grineer atrocities occurring after the Collapse, when the Tenno were in cryosleep, so it can hardly be seen as a reaction to the Tenno.

Tenno is likely not the worst faction no. But I dont really see how mass annihilation is a justifiable action against a faction like the Corpus. Sure they profit on arms dealing, weapon system manufacturing, certain shady science projects and so on. But so does half of our current earth and most of those that do those things (except shady science projects) are "pillars" of society. I dont think anyone looks particularly at Bofors and sees pure evil and that death should come visit the company, and the same goes for most of the others too. Heck Saab is invested in aerial warfare and has been since the middle of the 1900s. And we see elsewhere weapon manufacturers/dealers seen as heroes (hi Mr. Stark). Now of course Corpus arent heroes, but are they really up for the axeblade? Sure we can look at it from the very simplified gaming spectrum of good vs bad, but that makes the thread and the story of the game kinda pointless to begin with. 

And I agree that a feudal society is inherently bad, but the tenno are not fixing it by removing the feudal ruler, since they rarely never replace it by anything else. Look at Iraq, it is overall in a far worse state now than it was during Saddam's reign, since now small factions have the balls to make moves, both domestic and foreign, causing massive violence that hurts the civilians of the country. That even after the occupying forces tried to stabilize it. While you are right, occupying territory is by definition wrong, but we arent looking at tiny countries here, we are looking at full planets, I think there is enough room for a faction like Corpus to move in without anyone being impacted. Look at where the facilities are located, in very inhospitable places of the planets. I doubt any normal civilization lives there since afterall, all societies in WF are human and no one would freely live in such places. Grineer however, they seek out colonies.

Yeah the Corpus are bad actors, but is that worth getting killed for? And is the one killing them for that really a good guy? Them being shady and instigating conflict may even turn out to be something good, since when the Grineer shows up, there will be armed factions facing them, giving those that survived a instigated conflict a chance to defend themselves. 

And of course the parallels to our time arent an excuse or that they arent issues now. It is just that we need to look at it from a very deep into the future perspective where several mass scale wars have taken place on a system wide level. The way the Corpus treats people is really tame in comparison and people are probably better off than they were during the Orokin reign if you believe Parvos. And it is no wonder that the Corpus went into arms manufacturing when there is a whole faction of clones that want to rule everything. I also dont think Warframe experimentation can be seen as bad, since they are just lumps of infested flesh and technology in the end.

I'm not the one saying that the Grineer is doing it because of the tenno, the Lotus is. And of course the Grineer atrocities occured after the collapse during tenno cryosleep. And as Lotus says, it is in order to create an empire to stop the tenno from awakening. Remember that the queens are Orokin, so they know about the collapse and the tenno betrayal. Lotus explains this during Vor's Prize.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tbh the Tennos aren't exactly heroes.

For one they toppled the Orokin Empire, essentially putting the origin system in the dark ages for quite a few years... Even though the Orokins were pretty corrupt and exploitative of the general population (especially the part when they basically kidnapped children from their colony to transfer their oro into their bodies through kuva in the continuity ritual) ... Still a pretty huge betrayal for them to outright murder the entire ruling hierarchy before going into cryosleep, letting the survivors fight for scraps in the ruins of the empire.

Nowadays they perform "balance" aka murdering entire ships of corpus, grineer and infested to avoid one faction becoming too dominant, or so they say.

They do help a couple of small settlements (fortuna, cetus) and a couple hostages or people from syndicates, but usually, it's essentially motivated by loot, just like how they will gladly slide with grineer or corpus if they offer to pay an orokin reactor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are the part of the oppression what Corpus commit, so why bothers? Perhaps there are some members do not want to do, but we can't know how much of them will think as so and they are keep oppressing and harming the humanity rather than desertion. If we don't stop them we will failed protect the humanity, so the only option is to attack them.

It's all the same - the more dead crewman means the less dead innocents, just as the reward of killing more and more grineer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
On 2021-07-27 at 10:13 AM, FURYDANCE said:

this get me thinking, are those crewmen suits hanging on racks just suits or real people?

They are real units. All shelves where you can see them hanging are real units, they were never suits. Railjack is a place where they are properly animated so, you can see them twitching and moving as they hang, probably because it was too difficult to animate in other places way back then. In Railjack they sometimes get dropped from the hanger and come attack you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-07-31 at 10:59 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

It's been made clear in the game, at least to me, that the Tenno are good guys. The Tenno have a history that we're still learning about their origins, but we do know that they eventually couldn't stand the corruption of the Orokin any longer, and turned on them. (The Orokin were very evil, from all I've seen of them.) After they finish this act of heroism, freeing the Sol system from the oppressive thumbs (the massive ones on their right arms), the Tenno appear to have gone into self-imposed exile, entering Cryo-stasis - becoming something like Ronin (I use this in reference to a samurai without a shogun as the Orokin would have been the shoguns) - they don't take over in place of the Orokin.

It is implied, if not directly stated - bad memory on my part: because the Grineer were finding and destroying Warframes that still had Tenno connected via transference, and could do harm to the Tenno themselves through this, the Lotus begins searching for Tenno to rescue them and recruit them into her network of operatives who were acting to maintain a balance between the warring factions so neither of them would gain dominance and attain total control of the Sol system. As long as the Grineer and Corpus are fighting each other, they're not able to direct their entire forces at the remaining civilian populations. Tenno activities, directed by the Lotus, were said to have the goal of maintaining this balance (I'd bring in the quotes here if I could remember the sources) and not to entirely destroy either warring faction, simply acting in the shadows in key locations to prevent dominance of either.

At first, the Tenno start out taking missions from the Lotus (sorta like Ninja contracts, if we're going with the "ninja's play free" theme, and can make a Naruto-style connection), because she saved our lives (waking us in time for us to escape from Vor), and has shown us the horrors that the different warring factions are inflicting upon the innocent citizens of the Sol system. As the story progresses, we begin to just help where there is a need, such as responding to distress calls from various civilian populations. We don't get to see enough of these civilian populations in Warframe, IMO... and it would help to see all the good we're doing in who we're protecting, outside of the 3 open world hub cities, and the Myconians.

The ONLY enemy units I question the morality of killing, are the human corpus crews, since they're mainly brainwashed, apparently... (I could have sworn there was lore, that they were purpose-bred and essentially programmed meat machines - clones like the Grineer, but not suffering from clone rot.) as far as we've seen of Veso, which breaks what I knew of the existing lore. However, if an enemy is shooting at me, they're hostile in my book, and the enemy factions are always acting in some manner that is aggressive, and the Tenno are acting in defense of either those who cannot defend themselves (the reason we take on the mission contract for them), or even self-defense.

You can RP being some evil murdering killbot mercenary devil child all you like, but I'm RPing a hero, and the story is aligning with my view, so I'll stand by it.

Veso is not a normal crewman. Don't think that breaks any lore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, android3162 said:

Veso is not a normal crewman. Don't think that breaks any lore

As far as we can tell, Veso appears to be an engineer, although glassmaker also has a more 'human' Corpus with a family. It's likely there's probably a mixture of both, especially since glassmaker takes the time to point out that the Corpus build Crewmen suits with those weird voice modulators to make them all sound like robots. I doubt they'd shell out to have different suits for each.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

As far as we can tell, Veso appears to be an engineer, although glassmaker also has a more 'human' Corpus with a family. It's likely there's probably a mixture of both, especially since glassmaker takes the time to point out that the Corpus build Crewmen suits with those weird voice modulators to make them all sound like robots. I doubt they'd shell out to have different suits for each.

Same, I think the helmets there are just for interfacing with technology and void capability. In case things get hairy and the room gets depressurised. That being, I can imagine some crewmen throwing away their helmets when things get hairy due to how bulky they are. 

The idea that most corpus soldiers are just minimum wage workers is quite dark. I forgot his name, but in the rush archwing mission the guy that talks on your intercom just keeps talking about his bonus through the entire event. I'm pretty sure we're just see the seedy underbelly of the Corpus empire and the vast majority of the work they do is related to shipping or industry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An enemy is an enemy. If things have come to a violence resolve you either chose to kill or get killed, there's no third option. 

Being peaceful isn't the same of being pacifist. Tough pacific people always prefer dialogue doesn't mean they won't fight. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-07-27 at 6:53 AM, GrayArchon said:

This bugs me so much. I was talking to someone about this during TennoCon and I said exactly the same thing. It seems completely against Margulis' character (as far as we've seen) to reject Rell like she did (or rather, like we are told she did).

Personally I don't think she sent him away for nefarious reasons, but in order to protect him. Could be part of the reason for why she was executed perhaps. If he had stayed, Ballas would of had executed him imo for what he did to her, unintended or not. 'Too unstable' and 'dangerous'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...