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The conversation reminded me of a theory in psychology about how wearing a mask of sorts often decreases empathy and creates a dissociative effect. Kind of why many warrior cultures ask their soldiers to hide or paint their face to appear as monsters or as demons when going to war. Same principle applies to inhibitions, kind of why raunchy parties have people wearing masks.

The reverse is also true, nobody minds having storm troopers mowed down because they are all wearing bulky helmets that hide their appearance. If they looked like regular people, the films would have taken a different tone. 

My theory is that Neptune has a population of at least a few billion. Most Corpusians do backbreaking work not to dissimilar from the Solaris (some become Solaris due to falling into debt). The military route is one of the more lucrative jobs, assuming you want to risk Grineer raids and the occasional space ninja. Still, it's a small price to pay for a clean bed and a good meal at the end of the day. 

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18 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Again, I'm not contesting the different perspectives on the Tenno's actions in a moral vacuum. All I'm saying is that the Tenno are not "the Bad Guys" in the sense that they're not the worst faction. There are others (Grineer, Corpus) that do worse things than the Tenno and for worse reasons. That's it. I am not saying that everything the Tenno do is right; I'm just saying that others do more bad stuff. That's what I mean by "good guys" and "bad guys", because a video game like this has simplified morality. This is not the kind of moral analysis I would use for a real-life scenario.

This is really the key point that I disagree on. I've already cited my reasoning and evidence in my earlier comments, so I won't repeat them. I'll just push back on this comment for clarity's sake.

From my point of view, a feudal society is inherently bad, since it's incredibly unequal, inequitable, and has severely limited socioeconomic mobility. And occupying territory that already has people living in it is also bad, since it removes those peoples' rights to self-determination. I think these are fairly reasonable moral positions that enjoy wide acceptance, but I could be wrong.

The Corpus are arms dealers, manufacturing and selling weapons to all sides in a conflict. It's all but stated that they will instigate conflicts in order to generate sales. According to the Perrin Sequence, a core Corpus philosophy is that "conflict must be capitalised upon". Nef Anyo (who to Parvos Granum represents the epitome of what the Corpus has become, so it's reasonable to look at him as an individual) cheats independent colonists out of their money with his televangelistic screeds and his very rigged gambling arena (in addition to his treatment of the Solaris, which is possibly the worst thing he does, but you've mentioned that already). Read the Codex descriptions of the Index Brokers to see how violent oppression of colonists is sort of baked into their whole capitalism schtick. There are many other pieces of evidence that the Corpus as a whole are bad actors on a massive scale, even though they're not exterminating colonies outright as the Grineer do.

Of course, as you say, there are many parallels to groups or factions in our modern world, but I don't think that's exculpatory; I think rather that it's condemnation of those elements of our modern world.

Corpus research stations in the past have been involved in horrific human (or the Warframe equivalent) experimentation, and as far as we can see are overwhelmingly oriented towards weapons research, which feeds into a core element of why their faction is so bad (arms profiteering, referred to by Nihil as "necrocapitalism").

Examples: Fusion Moa research, Alad V (multiple instances), Nef Anyo during the Deadlock Protocol.

"Empire-building" is also not a great thing to do. And why are they trying to stop the Tenno? What's the original sin here? The Tenno only want to stop the Grineer because the Grineer are doing bad things (conquest), but you're saying the Grineer are doing those things to… stop the Tenno? That's roundabout. If the Grineer stopped trying to kill the Tenno and stopped exterminating colonies and basically just left everyone alone, the Tenno would have no reason to fight them, so self-defence doesn't really work as an argument here.

Also, the Anti Moa Synthesis entry lists Grineer atrocities occurring after the Collapse, when the Tenno were in cryosleep, so it can hardly be seen as a reaction to the Tenno.

Tenno is likely not the worst faction no. But I dont really see how mass annihilation is a justifiable action against a faction like the Corpus. Sure they profit on arms dealing, weapon system manufacturing, certain shady science projects and so on. But so does half of our current earth and most of those that do those things (except shady science projects) are "pillars" of society. I dont think anyone looks particularly at Bofors and sees pure evil and that death should come visit the company, and the same goes for most of the others too. Heck Saab is invested in aerial warfare and has been since the middle of the 1900s. And we see elsewhere weapon manufacturers/dealers seen as heroes (hi Mr. Stark). Now of course Corpus arent heroes, but are they really up for the axeblade? Sure we can look at it from the very simplified gaming spectrum of good vs bad, but that makes the thread and the story of the game kinda pointless to begin with. 

And I agree that a feudal society is inherently bad, but the tenno are not fixing it by removing the feudal ruler, since they rarely never replace it by anything else. Look at Iraq, it is overall in a far worse state now than it was during Saddam's reign, since now small factions have the balls to make moves, both domestic and foreign, causing massive violence that hurts the civilians of the country. That even after the occupying forces tried to stabilize it. While you are right, occupying territory is by definition wrong, but we arent looking at tiny countries here, we are looking at full planets, I think there is enough room for a faction like Corpus to move in without anyone being impacted. Look at where the facilities are located, in very inhospitable places of the planets. I doubt any normal civilization lives there since afterall, all societies in WF are human and no one would freely live in such places. Grineer however, they seek out colonies.

Yeah the Corpus are bad actors, but is that worth getting killed for? And is the one killing them for that really a good guy? Them being shady and instigating conflict may even turn out to be something good, since when the Grineer shows up, there will be armed factions facing them, giving those that survived a instigated conflict a chance to defend themselves. 

And of course the parallels to our time arent an excuse or that they arent issues now. It is just that we need to look at it from a very deep into the future perspective where several mass scale wars have taken place on a system wide level. The way the Corpus treats people is really tame in comparison and people are probably better off than they were during the Orokin reign if you believe Parvos. And it is no wonder that the Corpus went into arms manufacturing when there is a whole faction of clones that want to rule everything. I also dont think Warframe experimentation can be seen as bad, since they are just lumps of infested flesh and technology in the end.

I'm not the one saying that the Grineer is doing it because of the tenno, the Lotus is. And of course the Grineer atrocities occured after the collapse during tenno cryosleep. And as Lotus says, it is in order to create an empire to stop the tenno from awakening. Remember that the queens are Orokin, so they know about the collapse and the tenno betrayal. Lotus explains this during Vor's Prize.

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Tbh the Tennos aren't exactly heroes.

For one they toppled the Orokin Empire, essentially putting the origin system in the dark ages for quite a few years... Even though the Orokins were pretty corrupt and exploitative of the general population (especially the part when they basically kidnapped children from their colony to transfer their oro into their bodies through kuva in the continuity ritual) ... Still a pretty huge betrayal for them to outright murder the entire ruling hierarchy before going into cryosleep, letting the survivors fight for scraps in the ruins of the empire.

Nowadays they perform "balance" aka murdering entire ships of corpus, grineer and infested to avoid one faction becoming too dominant, or so they say.

They do help a couple of small settlements (fortuna, cetus) and a couple hostages or people from syndicates, but usually, it's essentially motivated by loot, just like how they will gladly slide with grineer or corpus if they offer to pay an orokin reactor.

Edited by (PSN)Stealth_Cobra
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They are the part of the oppression what Corpus commit, so why bothers? Perhaps there are some members do not want to do, but we can't know how much of them will think as so and they are keep oppressing and harming the humanity rather than desertion. If we don't stop them we will failed protect the humanity, so the only option is to attack them.

It's all the same - the more dead crewman means the less dead innocents, just as the reward of killing more and more grineer.

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