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Kuva Chakkhurr Too many Negatives


Drasiel
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

My biggest problem is Chakkhurr is the fact that it’s explosion drop off is so incredibly low for such a small explosion radius. It just makes me question why bother making it explosive at all if it’s forcing you to use it as a single target weapon.

Considering the radius, it could be better.  But 70% isn't terrible.   It  could be justified somewhat by all the direct damage and the fact that non-damage procs aren't reduced by falloff.

Again though, the weapon looks very different to me compared to AoE weapons than versus its class.  On the one hand, that fall off and radius looks terrible...

On the other hand Latron Prime says, "Can I get just a lil of that?"

youtube love GIF by Hyper RPG

 

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1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The less explosion drop-off the better, though - makes the damage more uniform from AoE center to edge. Chakkhurr is sitting at 70% damage at the edge of its 2.9m radius, so it sits at around the same drop-off % as the Secura Penta at that edge. S.P may have like twice the radius but the damage falls off to 40%, and Chakkhurr can take much better advantage of Internal Bleeding due to its forced Impact proc across its AoE and low enough fire rate to hit the 70% Bleed chance. This Slash machine is far from a single target weapon.

The % drop off displayed in the stats screen is actually the % of the weapons damages the outer edge is actually dealing. Not how much is being reduced from the maximum.

Edit: ok apparently that info is wrong. Which doesn’t explain why every weapon I have with a low % drop off is garbage compared to the ones with a higher % drop off.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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Well anyway, just messing in the simularcrum testing stuff, 1 chakkhurr shot kills 6 150 lvl grineer lancers (Ye not an achievement, but it’s only for its blast size comparison )with bleed procs, that’s what you need to know about AoE. And you have to consider that in Steel Path enemies grouped much better sometimes.

So could your punch-through do it better? Like Chakkhurr always hitting at least 2-3 enemies per shot, while sometimes weapons with punch-through can achieve very huge numbers, it’s really very rare, even on steel path.

Yeah sure it’s not Bramma or Ogris, but it’s not problem of chakkhurr, it’s problem  of ALL semi-automatic rifles, and chakkhurr is imo king among them all. 

Edited by SpiritTeA
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6 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Edit: ok apparently that info is wrong. Which doesn’t explain why every weapon I have with a low % drop off is garbage compared to the ones with a higher % drop off.

High drop-off weapons tend to be stronger (cough Bramma cough). Are you accounting for that?

2 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

Well anyway, just messing in the simularcrum testing stuff, 1 chakkhurr shot kills 6 150 lvl grineer lancers (Ye not an achievement, but it’s only for its blast size comparison )with bleed procs, that’s what you need to know about AoE. And you have to consider that in Steel Path enemies grouped much better sometimes.

And this is without taking Galvanized Multishot or the new arcanes into account, I assume?

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Chakkhurr is practically "what if i got almost all of the convenient things at once" in a Gun. 
the only things to really gripe about is the rather dreadful Rate of Fire and that the Reload is long.

but seeing as it will generally deal more Damage per Shot than Lanka, by a fair margin - small price to pay for what can be seen as "what if Lanka didn't have to Charge, was super comfortable to use in small Rooms, had AoE, and had forced Status?".

it even gets consistent Crits, unlike every Sniper Rifle in the game (Lanka only half counts, since the Projectile loses the Optic Bonus if you stop using Fine Aim before it hits the target, for some idiotic reason).

On 2021-07-27 at 7:41 PM, Drasiel said:

Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if it was hitscan?

i think all Guns/ranged Weapons in all Video Games are more fun if they are Projectiles. in my world, everything in every game would be a Projectile.
(and for me, easier to use, but that's besides my point here)

Edited by taiiat
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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

Chakkhurr is practically "what if i got almost all of the convenient things at once" in a Gun. 
the only things to really gripe about is the rather dreadful Rate of Fire and that the Reload is long.

but seeing as it will generally deal more Damage per Shot than Lanka, by a fair margin - small price to pay for what can be seen as "what if Lanka didn't have to Charge, was super comfortable to use in small Rooms, had AoE, and had forced Status?".

it even gets consistent Crits, unlike every Sniper Rifle in the game (Lanka only half counts, since the Projectile loses the Optic Bonus if you stop using Fine Aim before it hits the target, for some idiotic reason).

i think all Guns/ranged Weapons in all Video Games are more fun if they are Projectiles. in my world, everything in every game would be a Projectile.
(and for me, easier to use, but that's besides my point here)

Projectile would be fun if the AI didn't derp out and spin in circles for no reason. Like in other games where the ai is more reliable sure, in warframe projectile is frustrating for the wrong reasons.

12 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Strawmanning our arguments to only being about the gun in the hands of an aimbot AI isn't a particularly good way to counter what we brought up. The AI does in fact reload, sometimes more often than necessary, and ammo is not a problem for you because Vigilante Supplies is one of the best Exilus mods for your average gun due to the crit alone. The fact that monkey bro always aims for enemies while you can put your shots in the middle of crowds for optimal AoE coverage means that you don't have to be an aimbot to take advantage of the Chakkhurr. Arguably, you as a player perform better with the weapon than the AI!

I'm not trying to strawman you I've encountered multiple players using wuclone as a reason that a gun is excellent. Telling me how good a gun performs in the hands of an AI isn't of interest to me to offer rebuttals on.

I don't know how many times I have to say this in this thread but not landing headshots with it seriously curbs it's damage potential and projectile weapons allow the ai to derp out with one of it's janky no-logic movements. That is ridiculously punishing on this gun because it's QOL is so far in the ground that it pops out the other side of the planet.

***

Fine I give up. Every one else can enjoy Their mastery 15 mess with massive negative QOL, not strong enough to compete with launchers but with all of the downside of them rifle and I'll just shelve it and move on. For it's mastery, it's difficulty in using, it's difficulty in obtaining, and it's obnoxious reload; firer ate; and ammo pool I expected more, I'll find something else.

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On 2021-07-28 at 3:35 AM, Drasiel said:

It's a rifle despite behaving like a sniper: low zoom, no innate punch-through and no additional bonus' for multiple shots

Okay, which part of Kuva Chakkhurr behaving like a sniper?

On 2021-07-28 at 3:35 AM, Drasiel said:

Despite being a rifle it uses special ammo and has a tiny pool (11mag 55 pool)

Seeing how strong it is, I think that's the balancing part to make it not standing out too much and we have ammo mutation for that

On 2021-07-28 at 3:35 AM, Drasiel said:

The longest reload of any semi auto rifle (almost an entire second longer than the next runner up: latron)

Again, balance (you see this being brought up so many time in forum) so makes sense, a strong explosive weapon with long reload and it's not like don't have any mod to shorten it

On 2021-07-28 at 3:35 AM, Drasiel said:

Slow fire rate and massive recoil (slowest fire rate of every semi auto rifle)

Balance, again. If that thing has high fire rate and low recoil you would see it having touched like catchmoon. Also, it's a bloody wall cannon, you expect that thing that able to punch like an artillery cannon to have low recoil? Good thing kuva chakkhurr doesn't dislocate our warframe's shoulder with that punch

Also, you have mods for that

On 2021-07-28 at 3:35 AM, Drasiel said:

It's a projectile weapon. Yes you heard that right the hyper focused on headshots slow ponderous monster that is the chakkhur is using a projectile, meaning any spazzing out of the enemy you have lined up your shot on ruins it.

Not going to happen I'm afraid, and we have people saying that hitscan makes this game low skill. Also, the damage itself is strong enough to kill a group of enemies with one body shot so I don't think you really need that hitscan.

Target leading exists, you see. Pull up a bit ahead of the target and let them run into your shot. Maybe a little training with one of so many projectile weapon in this game can help

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It's a gun that can one shot any enemy in the game... tell me, what is bad about that? You don't even need to aim with that gun... just shot the ground and boom stuff is dead.

Because any of the 'negatives' you said are easilly fixed with mods.

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11 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Okay, which part of Kuva Chakkhurr behaving like a sniper?

Seeing how strong it is, I think that's the balancing part to make it not standing out too much and we have ammo mutation for that

Again, balance (you see this being brought up so many time in forum) so makes sense, a strong explosive weapon with long reload and it's not like don't have any mod to shorten it

Balance, again. If that thing has high fire rate and low recoil you would see it having touched like catchmoon. Also, it's a bloody wall cannon, you expect that thing that able to punch like an artillery cannon to have low recoil? Good thing kuva chakkhurr doesn't dislocate our warframe's shoulder with that punch

Also, you have mods for that

Not going to happen I'm afraid, and we have people saying that hitscan makes this game low skill. Also, the damage itself is strong enough to kill a group of enemies with one body shot so I don't think you really need that hitscan.

Target leading exists, you see. Pull up a bit ahead of the target and let them run into your shot. Maybe a little training with one of so many projectile weapon in this game can help

It behaves like a sniper because: it uses special ammo, it has an added bonus on headshot, it has very slow fire rate, it has an incredibly slow reload, it has a very small ammo pool, very high recoil, and it has very high crit.

You all keep declaring balance but it's unusual for a weapon with this high of  mastery level to suffer from 3 very present and very large QOL negatives in the ammo pool type/size, being a projectile, and it's very slow reload without being more powerful than it is.

I know how to lead a target it doesn't help when the AI in warframe will derp out and swivel around for no logical reason.

11 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

It's a gun that can one shot any enemy in the game... tell me, what is bad about that? You don't even need to aim with that gun... just shot the ground and boom stuff is dead.

Because any of the 'negatives' you said are easilly fixed with mods.

Look everyone keeps saying this guns is really powerful, but I've never seen it in the wild and using it myself it's only "extremely powerful" when compared to other semi auto rifles. How the "proper use" has been described in this thread is using it like a short to mid range launcher and ignoring the headshot bonus. It's negatives certainly put it squarely in line with negatives that launchers and sniper rifles traditionally have but it under performs in both damage and aoe radius when compared to them.

 

Any way you have all convinced me this isn't the weapon for me and the people that use it now don't want it to change so I'll just shelve it cut my losses and look for something else.

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6 часов назад, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

And this is without taking Galvanized Multishot or the new arcanes into account, I assume?

It’s with Galvanized multishot, riven for multishot and most importantly with heavy caliber , it gives a little bigger spread (a bit like shotgun), but not huge loss in accuracy (if you not sniping). But I don’t have maxed aracane or perfectly polished build (with different mods like +crit on aim, bane, etc that could drastically increase performance in certain situations)

2 часа назад, Drasiel сказал:

high of  mastery level

Dude, please stop. It’s BS argument for kuva weapons. You can kill lich at 7 mr and you will have chakkhurr on 7 mr. 

Edited by SpiritTeA
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7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I'm not trying to strawman you

they say, and proceed to strawman me.

7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I've encountered multiple players using wuclone as a reason that a gun is excellent. Telling me how good a gun performs in the hands of an AI isn't of interest to me to offer rebuttals on.

I'm telling you how good the gun performs in the player's hands.

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Any way you have all convinced me this isn't the weapon for me

You did a good job of that yourself before even making this thread. Good enough to disregard any comment about the weapon's upsides. Something something high crit plus 70% Bleed chance is pretty darn good for an AoE weapon.

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17 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

So could your punch-through do it better? Like Chakkhurr always hitting at least 2-3 enemies per shot, while sometimes weapons with punch-through can achieve very huge numbers, it’s really very rare, even on steel path.

And it's not like someone can't equip Primed Shred if they want PT.  Still get some AoE on the last hit, still under the threshold for double Internal Bleeding chance.

I wouldn't go that route, but it's an option even with an AoE, not a preclusion.  It's like regarding the headshot bonus as making headshots mandatory, when the weapon is quite good at killing most things it hits (And even some things it doesn't quite hit. 😀) regardless.

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I just came here to say (and I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet) that for the longest time before the release the of the Tenet Arca Plasmor, the Kuva Chakkhurr was meta for Index (among other things). And there aren't many weapons in the game that are part of a strict meta like that.

It can one shot 100+ level enemies easy. Especially Corpus, because of the base impact. I really have no issue with it. In fact for awhile there I was thinking that it should probably be nerfed. Comparing it to the other Kuva weapons, it has the highest base damage to cc/cd ratio of all the weapons. The thing is a one shot god weapon.

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On 2021-07-28 at 11:32 PM, SpiritTeA said:

It’s with Galvanized multishot, riven for multishot and most importantly with heavy caliber , it gives a little bigger spread (a bit like shotgun), but not huge loss in accuracy (if you not sniping). But I don’t have maxed aracane or perfectly polished build (with different mods like +crit on aim, bane, etc that could drastically increase performance in certain situations)

Dude, please stop. It’s BS argument for kuva weapons. You can kill lich at 7 mr and you will have chakkhurr on 7 mr. 

it's not when it's a mr 15 weapon.

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On 2021-07-29 at 3:39 AM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

they say, and proceed to strawman me.

I'm telling you how good the gun performs in the player's hands.

You did a good job of that yourself before even making this thread. Good enough to disregard any comment about the weapon's upsides. Something something high crit plus 70% Bleed chance is pretty darn good for an AoE weapon.

I'm sorry I wanted a precision rifle instead of yet another aim at the floor explosive weapon. I figured with a 50% bonus to headshots and the small size of the aoe that's what the gun should be used for rather than as a discount bramma. The last gun I got to really enjoy using was the Aklex Prime. So yeah I expected something based on the behaviour of the weapon. Everyone else seems fine to use it as is. I'm not though, if I want high crit and slash procs I'll just use a glaive, It works better at that job than the gun anyway. If I want an explosive I'll use an actual explosive weapon for more damage and bigger aoe. Since I want a precision weapon I'll have to look somewhere else. I think it's at least reasonable to understand why I would be disappointed and suggest the changes I did?

Just now, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

It is when it's a MR 15 weapon that can be used at MR 5.

why the #*!% do kuva weapons ignore mastery gating? I honestly didn't know this, I was already above mastery 20 when all of these came out.

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12 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

why the #*!% do kuva weapons ignore mastery gating? I honestly didn't know this, I was already above mastery 20 when all of these came out.

Because Mastery Gating is when you begin to craft something, the Kuva/Sister weapon are given already built on you kill them.

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Just now, smashedwookie said:

Because Mastery Gating is when you begin to craft something, the Kuva/Sister weapon are given already built on you kill them.

so the system only checks on build and trade then (which kuva weapons get around by being traded via lich? Do lich trades have a mastery on lock on them?). That's.... that's seven kinds of stupid. It's not like it takes up inventory space in the foundry, if you aren't' going to allow people to build or trade weapons with higher mastery than you have, it shouldn't allow you to claim them from the foundry either.

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1 минуту назад, Drasiel сказал:

so the system only checks on build and trade then (which kuva weapons get around by being traded via lich? Do lich trades have a mastery on lock on them?). That's.... that's seven kinds of stupid. It's not like it takes up inventory space in the foundry, if you aren't' going to allow people to build or trade weapons with higher mastery than you have, it shouldn't allow you to claim them from the foundry either.

But it works like it works, nothing you can do. That’s DE system, and they want to give end-game weapons in hands to newbies , who are actually very stubborn to grind lich at low MR. I kinda think it’s justified. It’s kinda same like buying weapons from shop ignores rank.

And yeah it’s not weapon fault that it isn’t  something you want. I want to like Nagatanka, I even put 6 formas in it, but it’s something I really not enjoy gameplay-wise. Maybe later in the future anyway. 

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6 minutes ago, SpiritTeA said:

But it works like it works, nothing you can do. That’s DE system, and they want to give end-game weapons in hands to newbies , who are actually very stubborn to grind lich at low MR. I kinda think it’s justified. It’s kinda same like buying weapons from shop ignores rank.

And yeah it’s not weapon fault that it isn’t  something you want. I want to like Nagatanka, I even put 6 formas in it, but it’s something I really not enjoy gameplay-wise. Maybe later in the future anyway. 

There's one thing I can do: complain about it 🙃 This explains all the stories about people trying to force liches early on in their playtime to get a weapon they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near.

Yeah it's not the weapons fault but it's still a huge disappointment that it's apparently the complete opposite of what it's mechanics suggested to me.

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