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So I managed to last 30 minutes in mot... Using Yareli. Here's my continued notes on the frame.


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hace 13 horas, (PSN)max141064 dijo:

The 2 is a good ability to take very little to no damage.

the only thing i would change about it is making it exalted, giving me the possibility of putting the K-drive mods in it. 

(besides, it would be an incentive to actualy lvl the ventkids up) and change the speed in wich Merulina goes in normal missions, in an open wolrd it can go as fast as it already is, in a normal mission? a bit too fast to manage it propely.

i mean...you can with a bit of experience but it would make her 2 more viable for more people. 

 

 

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Just now, RazerXPrime said:

You must be new.

Hi, I'm Birdframe_Prime, I've been here since 2014 and have nearly 5k more interactions on the Forums than you. Pleased to meet you.

Just now, RazerXPrime said:

DE has stated that their way of releasing things is deliberately underpowered because buffing things receives better feedback than nerfing things.

Yes, but there's a difference between 'underpowered' and 'missing functions'.

I like my build-craft, and I went into building Yareli expecting there to be something, even if it was hidden among casting all of her abilities together in the right order. Think Gara for an example, because her infinite damage scaling was completely un-documented on release and we all discovered it.

So I kept feeling like I was missing something.

Did Sea Snares prime enemies for more damage from her Aqua Blades? From Riptide? No... Did Aqua Blades deal more damage if you used Merulina's Ground Slam? No... Did survivors of Riptide have a debuff? No... How about casting things from Merulina? The only thing there is that she isn't grounded by the casting animations and can cast while mobile... Does any kind of sub-modding affect her, like Melee mods? No, not that either...

What is there?

The only effect her abilities have when cast together is that Riptide can pull in enemies from outside its range if they're Sea Snared. And that's kind of it.

She's missing something.

Missing some kind of kit interaction.

It doesn't have to be all that big, just... something...

Because all the other frames have something. All of them.

3 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

What loot?

Don't be twee.

If I have to go into detail, here:

Spoiler

Some of the best mods come from Arbitrations, especially the new Galvanised ones, starting at level 80, and having modifiers.

All of the Lich and Sisters interactions start at level 50+ and can easily scale to the 100+ range, meaning both cosmetic and high tier weapons require that kind of level.

Steel Path drops weapon arcanes and Steel Essence for more things to shop for, being a minimum of 100+ with bonus defenses.

Elite Sanctuary Onslaught is the best way of getting Focus and starts at 60+ to quickly move to the 100+ range if you're farming, plus having modifiers.

Basic Sorties start at level 60 and finish at level 100+ for daily rewards with modifiers.

Heck, even the Index, the best place to farm Credits, starts above level 30 and scales up quickly to levels where Yareli would not work.

The game's base star chart caps basic missions at level 40, but that is far and away from the end of Warframe's actual progression.

Especially since they actually linked Mastery Rank progression to the Steel Path Star Chart too, by making each of those nodes reward MR the same way basic nodes do.

You know that you can't go through the whole game only playing level 40 and under, especially if you actually want to farm mods, arcanes and resources to progress your game. So don't be silly about it.

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7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Being elitist

Yea see, you can buy those things off the market by playing level 10 relic missions. Or selling stuff from the NW store. You don't have to play Steel Path. Sorties are easy, no need to mention those. Yareli can do fine there. ESO isn't the "best" way to gain focus. It's a really good mind numbing experience sure.

Look not everyone plays the game in the same brain dead fashion. I log on. Pick something I want to go do, pick a frame I want to play at that time and make a weapon selection and then go and play. Maybe you should do another 4K posts more than me and come back to me.

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Just now, RazerXPrime said:

Ignoring the point of the discussion by trying to deflect it by saying 'just be lazy and never play those modes, you can buy everything if you farm plat'.

The point of the discussion is this;

People want to play Yareli.

Just like you want to pick a frame and weapon that you like and play them when you log in.

It's not about playing one frame all the time.

It's about, when you pick a specific frame, you want that frame to be able to complete at least certain game modes in a competent fashion, and at a competing level to other warframes.

I'm completely on board with the basic premise of 'not all frames are created equal'. It's perfectly fine for some frames to be able to excel at, say, Eidolons, while others excel at Sanctuary Onslaught, while yet others are great in short-runs like Capture or Rescue that don't need you to kill enemies to succeed.

For example, I wouldn't usually take my Zephyr to a Steel Path Infested Survival because of all the Aura-based Eximus units that spawn that can remove her energy, give the other units damage that will hit right through her shields, and usually have maps with confined spaces that allow them to get in Melee range if I'm not careful.

However, if I did? Her CC, resistance to range (anti-grappling hook and Moa projectiles), her ability to Hover outside of melee range, and damage through Tornado could allow me to succeed with careful play. And they specifically have on many occasions to prove the point to other players.

I can take the frame I want, even to things that the frame is objectively worse at that mode than other frames, and still expect to succeed because the functions that deal with problems are there.

Specifically, to repeat; the functions that deal with problems are there.

The same is true if I picked any other frame, where I could use CC, or Damage, or damage mitigation, to get through the missions. Each frame has strengths and weaknesses, and you can play almost any frame at any level of difficulty in the game and expect them to actually apply their functions to enemies the same way.

See... you can go and pick a warframe and play them. At any level. Because those missions all exist, from the first Exterminate on Earth to the Steel Path Mot, the missions are there, and players want to pick a Warframe and play the missions with them.

Your own point of view is completely valid in this, and only feeds into this discussion, because if you (for whatever reason) wanted to pick Yareli one day, and then take her to, for example, the Steel Path Alerts for some Steel Essence. This would be to get an item that cannot be bought for Plat; the Primary Arcane Adapter. And what do you find when you do this? You would not enjoy the process, because her abilities are limited to the point that you would struggle, or even not succeed, at many of those missions.

So.

The discussion is that Yareli, if you pick her, has only the absolute minimum capability of doing the things that her kit does because of legitimate limitations within her kit.

She has CC, but poorly functioning CC. She has damage, but incredibly low damage and almost no way to scale it. She has damage reduction, but limited to a specific mode and that mode can be killed quickly because it has no damage reduction itself. Even the cast that has some damage scaling is relatively low damage even after the scaling and scatters enemies after the cast (which is a problem that original Zephyr's Tornado had, and was fixed by DE years ago).

Much like Zephyr's Tornado, the problems Yareli has are ones that, strangely enough, DE have already solved. That, or those problems simply did not exist on many of the warframes they've created over the last six years.

So my question to you is exactly this, and please actually answer it this time:

Why do you think DE has not included any reliably effective functions at all on this frame, when every other frame in the game has something that can be applied at all levels of play?

They buffed her damage numbers, and while that was a buff, it didn't solve any of those problems. While they buffed her, which is the tactic that DE are stated to do after launch of a weak frame, it still left her with so many, many issues.

It didn't stop her CC from needing multiple casts, from bursting when it hits walls, from having no effect other than the 15 enemies it can CC simultaneously. It didn't stop her Damage from being so low that armoured units start to mitigate it after level 20, nor does it stop her damage from being inconsistently applied on enemies even when she stands right next to them and lets them get hit again and again. It did not stop her only Survivability cast from being a paper shield that can be stripped off incredibly quickly because it doesn't inherit damage reduction from Yareli herself.

It also didn't stop her from having a problem that DE solved with Necramechs already; she hits her head on doorways in a lot of tile sets while she's on Merulina, making her Mobility also counter-productive in many cases. Heck, a lot of tile sets have small corridors or vents that players have to go through (like the Grineer Asteroid tunnels), and Yareli can't use Merulina there at all.

Why?

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Yareli's neat conceptually. Bubble wizards are fun. But her powers really, really do not scale very well, and her toolset lacks internal synergy.

Like, her 1 is a bargain-basement CC, not much better than what Hydroid gets from a ground-slam. If the orbs could wander more freely, move around obstacles instead of breaking against them, it would be better. Better still if they had defence-stripping effects or applied viral procs or otherwise made an ensnared target easier to kill. Better still if a bubble had a fixed duration even its if target died and could move on to another one.

Then she could use the bubbles to chew through heavy enemy units one by one, as it is now it may simply be easier to beat the hell out of the enemy with her chosen bonk stick. That also makes them dead, doesn't eat your energy, and has comparable range.

 

Her 2 is a neat concept, albeit ill-suited to close quarters and serving mainly as a reminder that most of these internal environments were designed without rocket surfboards in mind. Perhaps being her able to use primary weapons while surfing would help, because shutting down 2/3 of your weapons for that damage reduction and wall of health points is a bit of a rough tradeoff. Or maybe her other powers should gain some benefits while the surfboard is out? Or the board could do something after you step off of it, maybe serving as a mobile point from which duplicates of her other spells could go off when cast?

 

Her 3 is fun. A bit of crowd control, but getting it to actually kill anything takes time. A really long time at higher levels. I propose making the aquablades roam on a non-fixed pattern, seeking out enemies with every lap of the warframe at a distance determined by one's range stat. Maybe let their damage increase with every hit they do, like Protea's summoned guns do?

 

Her 4 is...  Functional. I guess? I'd prefer it if it lasted longer, drawing in enemies in to a bubble and smashing them together like action figures in a washing machine. Some kind of synergy with her other powers would be nice, too. Like how Gara's shrapnel shield is recharged and powered up by her magic hedge. Actually getting this power to kill anything took a bit of work, and all it does is damage. You'd think it would do more of it. Maybe it should count targets caught by her 1 towards its' enemy counter for purposes of damage scaling?

 

 

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9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The only effect her abilities have when cast together is that Riptide can pull in enemies from outside its range if they're Sea Snared. And that's kind of it.

Tell me more of the juicy details, I need to document this~ can't reproduce it on my end.

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On 2021-07-30 at 12:47 PM, (PSN)max141064 said:

The 2 is a good ability to take very little to no damage.

the only thing i would change about it is making it exalted, giving me the possibility of putting the K-drive mods in it. 

(besides, it would be an incentive to actualy lvl the ventkids up) and change the speed in wich Merulina goes in normal missions, in an open wolrd it can go as fast as it already is, in a normal mission? a bit too fast to manage it propely.i mean...you can with a bit of experience but it would make her 2 more viable for more people. 

You forgot that 2 gimps you in every way - weapons, movement, and most things simply dont work - even defensive mods and arcanes (there is a list in another thread). It needs a rework to be simply **usable** let alone useful. Complete rework to the movement\collision to make it usable in normal levels.

Quote

Her 4 is actualy good as it is, the only thing i would change is by making the "ball" last at least 1 to 2 seconds before exploding, most enemies don't have time to get pulled into the ball before it explodes. 

Its a waste of energy and time for a bad effect - neither CC nor damage are any good, just throwing enemies around making it harder to shoot them. Maybe it kills on low level  - but everything dies there anyway and its still a pathetic skill for an ultimate - compare to other ults that CC/murder everything in a huge area. Complete rework needed.

Reminder that we have weapons that deal hundreds thousands of damage in AOE and can be spammed for free and first-skills that can do millions of damage and spammed for little energy cost. This ult is a compete joke.

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Ah okay, I was wondering if it was SP you were referring to and then I read the edit.

Cool cool. Not sure how useful this is since I find little use for SP, but I was kind of curious, so this satisfies my curiosity a bit 👍 

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Typo
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5 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Tell me more of the juicy details, I need to document this~ can't reproduce it on my end.

The documented 'synergy' between Sea Snares and Riptide is that Riptide 'drags in enemies captured by Sea Snares'.

While the 'drag in' portion of Riptide is short, it appears to affect enemies in Sea Snares that are outside the modded range. Non-Snared enemies at the same distance are un-affected.

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5 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

While the 'drag in' portion of Riptide is short, it appears to affect enemies in Sea Snares that are outside the modded range. Non-Snared enemies at the same distance are un-affected.

Maybe I worded it too vaguely on the wiki, but it's meant to literally mean Riptide works on Sea Snared enemies if they are in its ability radius lol. Thank goodness they do go into Riptide, because if they stay stuck where they are held that becomes built-in anti-synergy...

I wish they get dragged in at a bigger range but for now they don't, at least in my tests.

Edited by PsiWarp
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The changes I think should be made as of now. 

  • Ability to cast helminth abilities while on Marilina.
  • Percent damage increases that ramp up over time, like Hydroid's puddle. 
  • 90% damage reduction on Marilina if given power strength mods. 
  • Exalted K-drive.
  • Aqua blades buff. 
  • Passive buff or change.
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4 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

For me, the best and only good thing she have is Riptide sound/animation... not damage nor anything else, just the sound and animation.

You have a point.  The art side of Yareli is spot on.  I know the magical girl vibe isn't for everyone, and I definitely don't consider myself a huge anime fan or anything, but I like her and she doesn't look as out of place as some might have expected.

 

And yeah, the sounds are great too.

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On 2021-07-31 at 12:28 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

Yareli is bad because if you take full advantage of what makes her unique (Merulina), you are going to wind up banging your head against walls and falling through cracks in level geometry.

IMHO, you are going to play just fine but you are going to slow down (no sprint) and it defeats the purpose of this ability (at least one - being fast). Gaus is the best when it comes to speed - his control over speed/distance is very good.

Edited by quxier
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Honestly, I don't really like the theme of Yareli (if there is any). 
Surfer, Skate, Idol, Anime, Ninja, Magical girl all thrown together and mixed wiht little direction and barely glued together.

1 - Sea Snares
There is a cap to reach the cap. They can detect enemies behind walls but will destory themselves in walls. Literally no synergy with any of her abilities and has such a underwhelming concept, sound, animation, effect, everything of this ability is underwhealming. The only thing I can think of positive is that, unlie Hydroid's puddle, you can move.

  • Either removing the max cap or the cap to reach the cap. Basically just lets us spam more bubbles.
  • Reduce energy cost
  • Either let the bubbles pass through walls and objects or just give them LoS.

2 - Merulina
Honestly, the fact that DE decided to make K-drive her main gimmick will forever make her polarizing. Titania and Grendel are 2 ways they could make her unique movement better and less intrusive, but DE decided to go balls deep on forcing you to use Merulina while making her way too weak. You can cast all of her base abilities in Merulina while moving, that's neat.

  • Let defensive Warframe mods, buffs and Arcanes effect Merulina.
  • Just let players mod her with K-drive mods. 95% of them literally doesn't do anything to help you in tilesets and even less in combat, but the option is there.
  • Make her abilities have extra effects if cast on Merulina. Maybe an extra ring for Aquablades? MORE bubbles? Anything is a positive at this point

3 - Aquablades
Disapointing. Such a cool looking ability, such a cool sounding ability, such a cool concept, such a bad ability. Idk if it was my bad english but I swear this was supposed to reflect damage no? Anyways, it's sad.

  • Increase damage I guess?
  • Extra mechanics added to it. Maybe DR for Merulina? Damage reflection? Anything that plays into her barely defensive/CC focused gameplay

4 - Riptide
Idk why but this ability just feels old and generic. It's an ability, it does the job if, much like many other abilities, you somehow get rid of 100% armor. I have no opinion on this since it just sounds and play like a generic ability.

  • Increase range
  • Revert back to when it was shown on the DevStream, and let it hold enemies so we can make some use out of it
  • Some interaction with  Sea Snares would be neat, maybe it will gather and scatter double the bubbles, or apply the damage they would've done in total in a single burst.

 

Overall I think, regardless of changes, she will be a polarizing because Merulina is what ties everything together.
Good time for testing a Warframe like that, but please, release one with more coherence next time. (I also would wish they didn't made a whole Warframe/Gamemode based on a thing that is popoular currently)

Water bad/10
 

Edited by (NSW)Kokojo
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On 2021-07-30 at 8:19 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

Edit: I'm also not in love with how in that Polygon interview Rebecca played off Merulina in normal tilesets as being largely dependent on practice and player skill.  Certainly that's part of it.  Just like I know which tiles I should press 5 and void dash through and which I shouldn't, due to being too cramped, I might eventually learn when and where to use Merulina best.  But Merulina is Yareli's best defense.  We should be able to use her more effectively wherever we want.

Rebb always comes off as incredibly callous in text for some reason, and it seems that unless you give her an extremely specific use-case, she'll just assume that players want things to just be "easier." However, she did say this:

Quote

We did a swift buff pass right before TennoCon and will review more in the coming weeks. We don’t expect anyone to be good at K-driving in our constrained tiles with 0 practice, but we can also make some tweaks to make the speed and navigation easier to handle. Her Merulina mount is effectively her second health bar and a way to move quickly and swiftly around so we’ll make sure to continue balancing and fixing things up.

I think she's missing the point, and I hope that the feedback thread actually gets looked over by the devs, rather than being a steam vent for players. I get the feeling that her opinion is formed primarily from whatever she can glean from Twitch chat. Purely speculation on my part, I can't watch any WF streams with chat on, as I value my brain cells. Doesn't help that chat's set to a 10min slow mode during dev streams.

But dang, do I resent being told "practice using a rocket sled indoors lmao git gud" when I say "I don't like the fact that her only means of defense is a K-Drive."

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Not that K-drive requires skill in this context, but it would be nice if the K-drive controls had less drift and tighter control. 

This. My main argument for making Merulina moddable is that they could lower its speed and double jump height, then let players mod it up to the level they want. I, for one, like being able to double jump but not #*!%ing five stories and never less.

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On 2021-07-29 at 10:17 PM, sunderthefirmament said:

The purpose of the 1 is CC.  I don't think it's supposed to kill enemies by itself.

 

I agree with you about the passive grace period after you stop moving.  At least it's not as FoMO inducing as Zephyr's 1 augment though.  And even without any changes (even before it got buffed), her passive was still probably the best passive in the game, except for maybe Wisp, Protea, and Limbo.

Now if it didn't fly over their heads and otherwise crawl along at a glacial pace it may just do that. Compare to Magus Lockdown.

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16 minutes ago, Sojufueled said:

Now if it didn't fly over their heads and otherwise crawl along at a glacial pace it may just do that. Compare to Magus Lockdown.

I am starting to sour on the 1.  I think it's decent, but the wall collisions and general speed of the ability leave a lot to be desired.  I still think it's better than her 2, 3, or 4.

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13 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I am starting to sour on the 1.  I think it's decent, but the wall collisions and general speed of the ability leave a lot to be desired.  I still think it's better than her 2, 3, or 4.

Her 1 is mainly a CC abilities that sets up enemies for easy headshots. When one compares it to Harrow's 1, an ability with quite similar functionality, one really sees just how bad her 1 is - limit to 5 enemies per cast, slow to CC from cast, big chance to not CC (due to bad collisions), damage too low to compensate for having no other upsides.

When they first showed the ability, I thought the bubbles would at least chase enemies around if the first target died, but no, it's just one of the worst CC abilities in the game. And it still manages to be her best ability.

DE pls.

Edited by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu
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