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Too much power


Mokkun108
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It is sickening to see how lazy and brain-dead the gameplay has gotten recently. Playing co-op in a full squad of four I couldn’t help but notice prevalent usage of Whisp’s reservoirs, Roar, Dispensary and Gloom. Even Saryn players don’t do their thing (casting spores) anymore, it’s gloom on instead. There’s no teamwork, no variety, no tactics involved, no roles.

Helminth system that I criticized and despise made it so that typically people would utilize Roar or Protea's dispensary and abuse those to no end. The amount of tools we as players get to make the game brain-dead is well beyond any reasonable limit. Now I hear that helminth also received some sort of empowerments that raises the cap even further, not to mention the passive to be immune to statuses. Why? What is the reason behind this "power giveaway" exactly? Yes, power is what I normally seek after in games, but warframe provides so much power that I’ve became sick of it.  

What I'd like to see:

1. To stop spamming cooldowns should be implemented on most warframe abilities. We should not be able to have buffs at all times, f.ex roar, eclipse need a reasonable cooldown so players need to think when those are to be used. Ultimates need to have longer cooldowns, varying from ca. 30 secs for Mesa and Saryn to shorter ones for non-DPS frames.

In my eyes, giving us the ability to do everything and be so versatile absolutely destroys teamwork. I don't need teammates anymore, I'm able to cc, heal and I'm incredibly bulky. Therefore:

2. Remove operator arcanes that affect warframe in any way (or add 2-3 min. cooldown). This should prevent universal heals and cc (elevate, repair, lockdown) and allow for more meaningful teamplay.

3. Impose ability range cap on overused cc abilities to prevent entire map lockdowns (overextended cataclysm, strangledome, molecular prime etc.).

Ultimately I'd wish to see warframe gameplay be close to what was shown in the New War demo.

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14 minutes ago, Mokkun108 said:

In my eyes, giving us the ability to do everything and be so versatile absolutely destroys teamwork.

But as a solo player, this is great for me, and a conundrum for DE in designing content.

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12 минут назад, Mokkun108 сказал:

what was shown in the New War demo.

Having practically 0 enemies around with damage so low, my roomba hits harder?

15 минут назад, Mokkun108 сказал:

cooldowns should be implemented on most warframe abilities.

2013 called. It wants it's mechanics back. Also I don't know if you ever been to ESO, but try doing that with a caster frame relying on anything but 1st ability to be casted a couple of times in a row.

 

Then we run into a problem of unpopular missions. Good luck finding a full squad for those, not to mention complete them as a new player. And don't forget about solo players who can't do multiplayer runs due to a number or reasons starting with poor connection and ending with the ability to pause if something comes up outside of the game.

 

Not to mention that abilities are not be all end all of nuking the hell out of the mission. Lets put cooldowns on weapons as well! One can't fire Brama more than once every 3 minutes!

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Sad to say that it's a lost case and DE caters only to players who want to play on easy mode with cheats on and brain off no matter how boring it is.

Not to say that balancing game to get the difficulty right is easy  - its not, but DE completely gave up on even having gameplay, instead they've added bots that play the game for you - player is barely needed. And coop been dead for years.

You can absolutely design a game that has very strong weapons and abilities yet still has engaging gameplay, require player decision and skill. But instead we got a trivial grindan that incentivizes the laziest and cheesiest strats where AOE spam and even botting is so efficient that using anything else is severely gimping yourself.  And as a result DE cant come up with any interesting missions and just adds waitwalls and timers to everything or resorts to disabling everything and having more isolated systems (yea like the New war where you will play as some other gimped charachter)

Helmint doesnt even matter and most people dont care about it - because we are so OP with nothing to challenge us that getting more buffs is irrelevant.

All you can do is play solo with deliberately underpowered gear to get any gameplay out of WF and not fall asleep. But then solo is even more boring and of course inefficient for farming.

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Nah, I'm good with how things are, if I want a challange I'll play Dwarf Fortress in a cursed biome, WF I play to chill. And I mostly play solo too, because I prefer to avoid all the pleasures of a p2p connection, so the whole teamwork thing isn't a thing for me.

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Ah yes, another post of "get everything  nerfed, because I, Me, Myself and me only  don't have fun with it, because apparently instead of playing as usual, I want to ruin the fun for everyone else"

 

 

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How can I dislike this post? I want to dislike it.
I agree with damage should be much less. But those solutions that you suggested just bad. Take away Operator arcanes???? Are you ok? I don't know how many times they saved my ass when I played as solo.

Edited by Chollynn
typo and additional thoughts
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1 hour ago, Mokkun108 said:

Now I hear that helminth also received some sort of empowerments that raises the cap even further, not to mention the passive to be immune to statuses.

Status immunity?  Are you talking about Hideous Resistance?  I can't imagine many people will give up an ability for it, unless they're a real long ways off from Primed Sure Footed.

 

I was excited about it, but I haven't even bothered testing it because it scales with ability strength.  Spellbind isn't an instant cast like I want it to be, but it provides status immunity with no need for power strength (unless you use the augment).

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1 hour ago, Mokkun108 said:

op

Maybe you are looking for a different game, like dauntless. They even nerfed attack speed recently, so good news to you.

I'm not sure why people want to make a boss killer out of a horde shooter.

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40 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Helmint doesnt even matter and most people dont care about it - because we are so OP with nothing to challenge us that getting more buffs is irrelevant.

LOL it's kinda funny that you say this, because just this week I got a 200% power strength buff for my Mirage. Got her to over 500% STR, and it made absolutely no difference whatsoever on actual steel path gameplay for 1 hour straight. I saw bigger numbers and it was cool to look at the screen and see a 1000%+ buff active, but enemies were still getting one shot exactly the same as they did before this invigoration. 

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As much as I agree that the game's tipped too far in the direction of 'tyranny of fun/Overpowered', I don't think that a knee-jerk response down to a more grounded shooter approach like what was seen as the default in the New War is an appropriate response. The issue is not that the game is a power fantasy. Rather, there's a very particular power fantasy being catered to, and it's one that's both very restrictive to new content and narrative progression as well as being exclusionary. That being the power fantasy of being entirely unopposed, at all times, with no restrictions whatsoever, usually in very simplistic settings with a limited scope. This fosters an unhealthy meta that favours only a few things, with the excuse that 'everything else is viable', even though they're rarely or never particularly useful or never given a chance to shine.

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If basically everyone is nerfed and "teamplay" is enforced i suspect there will be a mass exodus away from the game. Toxicity will also become rampant since having a bad player on your team now means you may well be screwed. The day roles and teamwork becomes required is the day when the currently (mostly) non toxic community goes full cesspit. I can easily see things like "To join our Eidolon group you need at least 200 hydrolyst kills." popping up and becoming normal, like killproofs were in guildwars 2 raids. Random groups wont work if you need a healer or tank since people can no longer be self sufficient. So you need to be able to keep yourself alive, even with the squishiest frames, since you cant count on /any/ support from your team, ever. What your proposal would logically lead to is just that people bring tankier frames and big AoE guns like the bramma since abilities are no longer better.

While i do agree that large scale changes are basically necessary towards balance and actually allowing bosses to be more interesting, i don't see it as something that will realistically happen. I've seen a lot of posts advocating a massive stat squish to remove all the multiplicative boosts we can get to damage but i don't really think it would work, nor is the problem that easy to solve. Especially so since people have very different ideas of "balance" in a game or how it should play.

The reason i play this game is the same why i usually play games on easy, meaning i usually just want to be able to go in and basically have the power of a god and cut through hordes of enemies with a decent build. Finding those builds and actually being able to go from weak to omgwtfhax is seriously one of the most satisfying things in the game in my opinion.

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I use Dispensary on more than a few energy starving loadouts Gloom is situational depends on the frame and content that I am running....I'm mostly a solo player so yeah these two save my bacon on more than one occasion

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21 минуту назад, Vahenir сказал:

Random groups wont work if you need a healer or tank

Just imagine queue times for public games.

25 минут назад, Vahenir сказал:

What your proposal would logically lead to is just that people bring tankier frames and big AoE guns like the bramma since abilities are no longer better.

Warframe Update 31: World of Inaros

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Starting a new account on NSW showed me just how powerful I have become over the years, and how my Xbox account stacks up against my NSW account. Xbox I can wipe out enemies and complete missions with ease, on my NSW account I can complete the content but at a much much slower pace.

It is actually enjoyable to slow down and see things from a starting point perspective again and not be able to blow through missions or enemies at the pace I can on my Xbox account. It's more difficult with the lack of resources, but it has been a refreshing challenge to start over again. 

I think the only true challenge of WF was the unknown. Because DE is predictable on content, most players can adapt very quickly and find quick and efficient ways to blow through content. It's not that we want it easy, but we just want to make the most of our time and challenge the strength our builds. 

They give us the tools, why would we not use them? Why would you want to continue digging a hole with a shovel when someone gives you a front loader?

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mokkun108 said:

elminth system that I criticized and despise made it so that typically people would utilize Roar or Protea's dispensary and abuse those to no end.

in all honesty it's not helmints fault. It's more DE feeding the powercreep with every new frame/update.

Players are just following the efficiency spreadsheet thus using helminth that way. 

Game needs insane level of rebalance with difficulty scalling and overall mission difficulty. Otherwise at some point it will turn into another WoW: Super great untill it suddenly crashes and then everyone demands "WF classic" 

 

@(PSN)Madurai-Prime lazy argument spotted. If you dislike what OP says, how about you don't read it? You don't get to tell everyone how to behave on forum  

/s 


Quite amazing how game and forum evolves, yet some things... and some users... never change ;)

Edited by deothor
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11 minutes ago, deothor said:

in all honesty it's not helmints fault. It's more DE feeding the powercreep with every new frame/update.

Players are just following the efficiency spreadsheet thus using helminth that way. 

Game needs insane level of rebalance with difficulty scalling and overall mission difficulty. Otherwise at some point it will turn into another WoW: Super great untill it suddenly crashes and then everyone demands "WF classic" 

 

@(PSN)Madurai-Prime lazy argument spotted. If you dislike what OP says, how about you don't read it? You don't get to tell everyone how to behave on forum  

/s 


Quite amazing how game and forum evolves, yet some things... and some users... never change ;)

Perfectly valid. 

How does what I do in another group affect the OP? 

Does magus repair automatically install itself? If so that's a bug.

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 Dont touch my Mirage, she's already squishy as all hell with her "Kill you before you can kill me" playstyle. As a person that's always doing long runs on SP, and builds for end game. This will put a dent in my berserker like playstyle. If you want team work, do Eidolons, Railjack, Profit taker.....Or wait for Raids/Lore to make its return. Even as a person that strongly dislikes a spamming Saryn, and Maxed range Limbo...im still against it.

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12 hours ago, Mokkun108 said:

Ultimately I'd wish to see warframe gameplay be close to what was shown in the New War demo.

I have good news for you. There's a million games that are either:

-A generic shooter

-A generic hack and slash with like no enemies

Adding cool downs and greatly lowering our damage and reducing enemies fought to balance things out doesn't make the game more team oriented. You have to force teamwork to be a hard requirement. Doing so in pve games normally means forcing damage [unavoidable] to force healers to be useful. In some Action combat MMORPGs supports are irrelevant in good groups and bosses deal dot/apply debuffs/other stuff that force reliance on a support. Games with no trinity force multiplayer by having the rewards be based on whether the group is full and rewarding the person that carried with an extra drop.

Even "raids" in pve games the "team work" mostly amounts to stand in that spot when I tell you to and dps checks that are impossible to complete solo.

Without the above to force you into playing with someone, at an average to above average skill level, things get soloed. Although, none of this is "team work". It's just people that happen to be in the same party completing a task together, which isn't any different to how the game functions already.

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I'd like to say i agree with op in that the game would be more fun if enemies werent made of paper with brains made of scrambled egg. I really would. But then DE released Steel path which even with cheese strats and overpowered gear I just find incredibly tedious and boring for the entire ordeal because of the crazy shields and armor. Enemies are still dumb as a sack of rocks but theyre no longer any fun to kill. 

And therein is the issue with it. I used to be a person asking for nerfs, asking to get energy reworked because we have 100% uptime even with low efficiency builds, but now it just feels enemies are too annoying for a simple nerf to us. Were they to nerf us heavily, (no i dont think cooldowns are the way to do it, energy system needs a rework as do mods) i'd feel the entire enemy roster would need a rework to be less busted and more tactical. They can still be easy to kill, but they need more well.. thought than just walking into direct fire and talking hits while shooting. A squad instead should run in quickly, fan out and find cover or try and flank. Or set up their ramparts and actually use them. But we 100% should still do enough damage to take them out with ease if shooting well or using cover and abilities. What we currently would fight with nerfs would still be a bunch of enemies draining your energy with no real idea of who or whats doing it (energy leeches, parasitics, magnetic damage), enemies that can flatly turn your abilities off, enemies that ignore abilities entirely and can hit you through invisibility, enemies with damage reduction stacked so high they already are slogs to fight, and enemies with ridiculous evolving resistances or immortality phases. Theyre just not fun to fight when you're energy starved, or your weapons are weak

Its a tradeoff really for me anyway, i like the power fantasy, but for me i only feel enjoyment from being overpowered when that power is threatened from being overrun by swarms of smaller enemies, or when im fighting something thats smart enough to fight back even if its a losing battle. Thats why i loved crysis. Yes I was broken overpowered with the abilities but enemies werent pushovers to where I took no damage until they got broken enough to 1shot me regardless. Feels like we've lost the power fantasy warframe used to have and gained godmode

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How about you play the way you want and i'll play the way I want.

If you don't like the way others play then use recruit chat and form your own party.
Should I get super upset over someone using a bless trinity over a energy vampire trinity because I could personally use energy over health? no,that's ridiculous. Play the way you want to play and I'll keep playing the way I want to.

Also,I only have roar on a single build across all of my warframes but I use firewalker on almost all of them. Should firewalker be nerfed then? no,that's silly. I also use saryn spore every chance I get and have never saw a gloom saryn before. A meta saryn build would use a lot of range and duration but not a ton of strength,I fail to see how gloom on a saryn build would be great at all without a lot of power strength. But hey,that's the beauty of warframe. You can play in so many different ways and helminth added more variety to the game.

You seem to think that build variety is a bad thing because you don't like helminth but then you see build variety in gloom saryns etc. who for once aren't just casting spore endlessly and you have issue with it. Pick one.

 

Quote

not to mention the passive to be immune to statuses. Why? What is the reason behind this "power giveaway" exactly?

Because it gives more options. Build variety is a good thing.

If you want to play a sneaky stealth game where you're powerless with timers locking abilities then play a game that has that because it isn't warframe and warframe stopped being that a long time ago when DE realized that isn't the direction they wanted the game to go and it has been a increasing power fantasy ever since the game existed.

If power fantasy gets you so upset then go play a game without a similar power fantasy because you won't get dark souls or destiny here. You get upset that warframe isn't dark souls or destiny when those games already exist. They're called dark souls and destiny.

 

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In my eyes, giving us the ability to do everything and be so versatile absolutely destroys teamwork. I don't need teammates anymore, I'm able to cc, heal and I'm incredibly bulky.

That's the beauty of warframe,you don't always have to play as rhino through the entirety of your warframe playtime. You have so many choices and you make the choice to always be rhino.
"but there are no reasons to play as other frames!11!"
Every warframe has 4 skills and every warframe has at least 1 good ability.
Fatal teleport ash still has a use.
bless trinity still has a use.
Some abilities might function the same across different warframes but a different kit adds different support to said kit.
 

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There’s no teamwork, no variety, no tactics involved, no roles.


Have you ever done a activity that makes teamwork the center of the activity for efficiency?
I get some players can solo a tridolon but not everyone is superhuman or a hardcore player. A lot of us depend on teamwork,frame variety that compliments each other for the same goal everyone is working towards,and each player has an assigned role. 

Railjack greatly encourages communication and teamwork for a better mission run. Infact they've recently updated it so it's more accessible to more players so more players can work together towards the missions goal. Different parts of the ship can't be ran by a single person all at once. Team work is encouraged. Tactics are involved. There are quite literally roles you can take and be assigned. There is variety.

Of course you can solo  an orb but that doesn't mean everyone is on your level.
Teamwork is efficiency. Efficiency brings profit.

Of course you could solo steel path,that doesn't mean everyone else can.  Filter recruit chat by steel path and you'll see a megaton of players asking for teamwork.
 

Quote

Ultimately I'd wish to see warframe gameplay be close to what was shown in the New War demo.

It looked incredibly slow and very unlike Warframe. It could be fun for a bit but i'm not here to waddle through a massive open world slower than a snail.
I'm not apposed to the idea of such a thing being a small part of the game for something different. I would really dislike to see Warframe make its core around being a incredibly slow cover shooter. Cover shooters were from early 2000s and they died out because people stopped buying them. Hilariously,Warframe was very much a cover shooter and they got out of the cover shooter race as people stopped buying cover shooters.

The majority of the playerbase wanted to be fast,powerful,and efficient as seen through coptering becoming a thing and the game changed around it.

Tldr; all of that sounds like a you problem. Warframe is warframe. It isn't dark souls or destiny.

Also can't wait for new war,it looks great.
 

Edited by wizardeiges
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If you want the experience of what the New War showed with the Grineer and Corpus perspectives go play one of the bajillion generic FPS games out there.

Now that’s not to knock on what the New War showed. It’s just the most interesting parts to me was the story and seeing things from the enemy perspective. The gameplay was obviously going to be toned down for playing a simple soldier.

 

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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On 2021-07-29 at 4:21 AM, Mokkun108 said:

There’s no teamwork, no variety, no tactics involved, no roles.

If you're wanting to up interactivity, I'd figure making things feed into other things would be more beneficial than "hurry up and wait for a cooldown". Something like having weapon hits generate energy for base abilities, whose uses power ultimate abilities, so you have a decent flow state from one element into the next instead of skipping to the best thing straight away. Make the core gameplay loop a little more involved.

We've got difficulty (or "difficulty") in the form of Steel Path but, despite that increase in enemy stats, we're not really more involved than before. Our viable options are just fewer. Dumping on player power is going to have a similar effect. If you have cooldowns, then the ideal Warframe shifts to those that don't rely on spamming (Octavia e.g.). Take out Warframe-healing Operator arcanes and Inaros becomes a bigger go-to. It's a different flavour of the same "no teamwork, no variety, no tactics, no roles" thing.

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On 2021-07-29 at 4:21 AM, Mokkun108 said:

. There’s no teamwork, no variety, no tactics involved, no roles.

"No Teamwork, no variety, no tactics"?

You pick your own role you prefer. If you need teammates that work with you, use recruit. How about Eidolon hunting? Most players are not into these in day to day farming missions. We simply get in these missions and get done with it in public squads. If you want to customize a team for a SPECIFIC type of mission, you will NEED to use recruit. Problem solved. 

Keep going and enjoy the game. Or take some breaks from time to time. 

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