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Did Parvos Granum...


nebfab

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... actually kill his own brother, as the Sisters intro cinematic implies? And if he did, why he's still treated as morally ambiguous or even a "honourable adversary" by the rest of his lore (including the ending of

Spoiler

Waverider, where Grandmother says Nef isn't "half a man his father was"

, which was developed simultaneously with that?)

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2 minutes ago, nebfab said:

... actually kill his own brother, as the Sisters intro cinematic implies?

Where did THAT come from?

There is no implication Parvos did much of anything to his brother. The worst that happened was a disagreement about building apartment buildings on the family farm. The "axe" quote was... honestly I didn't get what was going on there, but I was worried the axe was meant for Parvos (that he might give his hypothetical enemies a little of the whole "Nihil sideslip" i.e. kill himself to avoid being murdered)

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19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Where did THAT come from?

There is no implication Parvos did much of anything to his brother. The worst that happened was a disagreement about building apartment buildings on the family farm. The "axe" quote was... honestly I didn't get what was going on there, but I was worried the axe was meant for Parvos (that he might give his hypothetical enemies a little of the whole "Nihil sideslip" i.e. kill himself to avoid being murdered)

Hmm... Actually, re-watched it, and yea, the axe thing can mean just about anything and while it's clear he, well, really disliked his brother,  there's no violence implied. Also, yes, Parvos does speak of him consistently in past tense as if he's dead, but considering the whole Granum Void thing, it well may be he died of old age.

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I watched the intro again just to be sure. There is no such thing implied. If anything it shows us how Parvos despises his brother's supposed "laziness, lack of ambition" despite his potential (Parvos' line on his brother's brawn) and refused Parvos' guidance. That's why he wants sisters instead of brothers. It's "who wants another brother when the one you have is a just a brainless meathead" kind of vibe.
 

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31 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The "axe" quote was... honestly I didn't get what was going on there,

"My brother was a witless man. Happy as a hog, face down in the trough. No thought on the farmer's axe."

Parvos' family were grain farmers. Pretty much like medieval serf. His brother just went along without any desire to get a better life (that's the "happy as a hog, face down in the trough" line) and didn't even realize that their own life and fate were in their Orokin lord's hand (that's the "No thought on the farmer's axe" line).

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2 hours ago, acevezwing said:

"My brother was a witless man. Happy as a hog, face down in the trough. No thought on the farmer's axe."

Parvos' family were grain farmers. Pretty much like medieval serf. His brother just went along without any desire to get a better life (that's the "happy as a hog, face down in the trough" line) and didn't even realize that their own life and fate were in their Orokin lord's hand (that's the "No thought on the farmer's axe" line).

No no, that part was obvious. The beginning pine is about livestock and slaughter being a metaphor for "ignorance is bliss." I meant the final line, when his hypothetical sister was the one with the axe, that one confused me at first (and even now, I can't tell if the axe is for Parvos or his enemies)

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1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

No no, that part was obvious. The beginning pine is about livestock and slaughter being a metaphor for "ignorance is bliss." I meant the final line, when his hypothetical sister was the one with the axe, that one confused me at first (and even now, I can't tell if the axe is for Parvos or his enemies)

Aaaah my bad, my bad.

And should I ever find myself... back at the trough. Penniless. Betrayed. Rich, only in enemies... She'd be at my side, axe in hand.

I think it shows how loyal his sisters are even when he goes back to zero to the point that the sisters have more power than him (hence it's the sisters who have the axe).

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4 minutes ago, acevezwing said:

I think it shows how loyal his sisters are even when he goes back to zero to the point that the sisters have more power than him (hence it's the sisters who have the axe).

Ah, that makes more sense than my first interpretation (I must have had the cowardly Nihil on the brain instead of the determined Parvos). Thank you

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Parvos didn't kill his brother Claudius, but doesn't really approve of him either as Claudius was content to live as he was, with no desire to try and make life better for himself: the exact opposite of Parvos' way. 

and Grandmother is right: Parvos is no good guy, but he did actually work hard to get to where he is, and make the Corpus as powerful as they were under his rule, while Nef is literally just a cult leader and conman preaching about the Void asking for donations and getting others to do his bidding. he definitely has more integrity than Nef. I'd like to think that, whilst it will probably be on hold due to the Sentient Threat, the Corpus will become truly divided between Parvos' followers (Juno Corpus, all the Railjack Corpus) and those still loyal to Nef (regular Corpus, Terra Corpus), and the end result would be a Corpus civil war as Parvos tries to reclaim his place at height of Corpus power and Nef tries to defend it. meanwhile Alad V would probably see an opportunity in the chaos and make a power grab for himself: it makes for a potentially interesting narrative IMO.

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37 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

 I'd like to think that, whilst it will probably be on hold due to the Sentient Threat, the Corpus will become truly divided between Parvos' followers (Juno Corpus, all the Railjack Corpus) and those still loyal to Nef (regular Corpus, Terra Corpus), and the end result would be a Corpus civil war as Parvos tries to reclaim his place at height of Corpus power and Nef tries to defend it. meanwhile Alad V would probably see an opportunity in the chaos and make a power grab for himself: it makes for a potentially interesting narrative IMO.

Corpus civil war is the most likely direction Granum stuff is going to, there's plenty of very obvious foreshadowing even I, with lore comprehension fail that is the OP of this thread,  could see... (Please DE, no subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations. )

 

I'd argue that Nef's scumbaggery is redeemable in at least one respect --  he seems to be the self-aware "I'm the villain of this story and I am tradition-bound to do the things villains do" type. He enjoys it, but he also knows he's morally in the wrong. I'm not so sure that's true of Parvos when he is in the wrong.

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7 hours ago, nebfab said:

... actually kill his own brother, as the Sisters intro cinematic implies? And if he did, why he's still treated as morally ambiguous or even a "honourable adversary" by the rest of his lore (including the ending of

  Hide contents

Waverider, where Grandmother says Nef isn't "half a man his father was"

, which was developed simultaneously with that?)

I think tha.... (for the rest of the sentence, catch me next week)

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8 hours ago, acevezwing said:

I watched the intro again just to be sure. There is no such thing implied. If anything it shows us how Parvos despises his brother's supposed "laziness, lack of ambition" despite his potential (Parvos' line on his brother's brawn) and refused Parvos' guidance. That's why he wants sisters instead of brothers. It's "who wants another brother when the one you have is a just a brainless meathead" kind of vibe.
 

This.  His brother is a mataphor for inept, wasted strength and lack of vision…the broader context is current Corpus Leadership.

VESO from Tennocon…I VERY MUCH see his hero’s journey as rising to prominence through revolution…one that involves deposing the Serial-Sycophant Clown-traitor and the Corrupt, Slave-peddling, Void Preacher.

Veso Will free Parvos Granum to rule.  Maybe only Glast survives the re-alignment in terms of  Corpus power.
 

DE knows the Corpus need a leadership Overhaul.

 

 

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5 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

I'd like to think that, whilst it will probably be on hold due to the Sentient Threat, the Corpus will become truly divided between Parvos' followers (Juno Corpus, all the Railjack Corpus) and those still loyal to Nef (regular Corpus, Terra Corpus), and the end result would be a Corpus civil war as Parvos tries to reclaim his place at height of Corpus power and Nef tries to defend it. meanwhile Alad V would probably see an opportunity in the chaos and make a power grab for himself: it makes for a potentially interesting narrative IMO.

Don't forget Frohd, who IIRC outranks Nef. (Lemme just confirm... yeah Frohd is chairman of the board, not Nef) It's kind of ironic actually, this civil war to reclaim the Corpus between the original founder and a guy claiming to be the founder's heir, yet the man actually sitting in Parvos's office (Frohd) hasn't been heard from at all

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9 hours ago, nebfab said:

... actually kill his own brother, as the Sisters intro cinematic implies? And if he did, why he's still treated as morally ambiguous or even a "honourable adversary" by the rest of his lore (including the ending of

I'm sure there's plenty of literature in which the honourable protagonist must slay his "evil" antagonist brother.

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20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

yet the man actually sitting in Parvos's office (Frohd) hasn't been heard from at all

Since we have no official timeline between quests storyline, I guess it's safe to assume that Frohd is probably onto something after his "scuffle" with Ergo.

Ergo and the Corpus are really interesting for me. Especially with Parvos in the picture now. I wonder what kind of interaction he is going to have with Ergo be. Considering how different Ergo is compared to Nef. Ergo is the embodiment of The Tenets.

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Depends on how you look at it and where you draw the line. Parvos' brother was said to be a fool wielding his power like a brute with a cudgel. If Parvos allowed his brother to die in a foolish pursuit did Parvos kill his brother? If Parvos orchestrated the events that led to his brother's death, did Parvos kill his brother? There are layers of ethical grayness that are open to personal interpretation. Even if he were partially or fully responsible for the death of his sibling: Fratricide is definitely a classic Merchant-Prince-of-Italy move.

Remember: Tenno hands are drenched in blood. Our masters, our mentors, and many of our former allies lay dead and we're the ones that killed them. I wouldn't be quick to judge Granum for doing the same.

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17 minutes ago, Mints said:

Remember: Tenno hands are drenched in blood. Our masters, our mentors, and many of our former allies lay dead and we're the ones that killed them. I wouldn't be quick to judge Granum for doing the same.

Yeah, the Warframe universe is very grimdark when you really get down to it. Nobody can actually claim to be the objective good guys because the climate is so corrupt. Everyone suffers, and the only way to reduce your suffering is to become so powerful that your ability to cause suffering outweighs most others. All that matters is who's on your side at the moment (see Tenno siding with both Corpus and Grineer as suits the Tenno's whim). It's a fundamentally broken state of affairs, regardless of the small moments of levity and humanity.

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21 hours ago, acevezwing said:

Since we have no official timeline between quests storyline, I guess it's safe to assume that Frohd is probably onto something after his "scuffle" with Ergo.

Frohd hasn't been heard from since his ship exploded with him on it, although his last words were "Ahh… eject the bridge module. Eject it now!!!", so video game rules say he's still alive and waiting to come back. Generally, Frohd Bek stays away from the Tenno (Operation: Ambulas Reborn notwithstanding), so if he were doing things, we would likely not hear about it.

21 hours ago, acevezwing said:

Ergo and the Corpus are really interesting for me. Especially with Parvos in the picture now. I wonder what kind of interaction he is going to have with Ergo be. Considering how different Ergo is compared to Nef. Ergo is the embodiment of The Tenets.

I actually made a reddit post saying this back during the Glassmaker: 

The principles that Ergo Glast lays out in the tract Gral was reading sound very similar to Granum's Tenets, and Granum is likely to respect Glast for his intelligence and hard work.

The one caveat (which was not present when I made that post) is that Perrin Sequence members seem to be terrified of Parvos Granum and treat him like a boogeyman.

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7 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

The one caveat (which was not present when I made that post) is that Perrin Sequence members seem to be terrified of Parvos Granum and treat him like a boogeyman.

It's natural I guess. I mean Parvos was considered dead and then suddenly he is actually alive all this time. In the void of all places. With how mystic the void is to the denizens of the Warframe Universe, any guy who can survive in the void for a long period of time would pretty much end up in the "people you should stay away from" list. Especially when that guy is a founder of one of the largest faction of the universe, has the guts and will of a kubrodon and the mind of a cold and calculating genius.

 

7 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Ergo Frohd hasn't been heard from since his ship exploded with him on it, although his last words were "Ahh… eject the bridge module. Eject it now!!!", so video game rules say he's still alive and waiting to come back. Generally, Frohd Bek stays away from the Tenno (Operation: Ambulas Reborn notwithstanding), so if he were doing things, we would likely not hear about it.

I bet he cares more on his revenge against Ergo than the Corpus itself and Parvos. I guess that's become your life priority when your pupil outsmarted you twice and then grandly whooped your ass.

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7 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

so video game rules say he's still alive and waiting to come back.

I remember you can actually see a small vessel of some kind ejecting from the capital ship when it's destroyed. So yeah, he is alive but not so well.

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Not to sound pretentious, but the Parvos's backstory sounds a lot like the retelling of the Biblical Jacob and Esau story. Esau was the firstborn and was meant to inherit Abraham's blessing and land due to being physically stronger and a born warrior. Jacob, being more of a rogue managed to scam Esau out of both. He ended up leaving his older brother with nothing, then left his home to form a powerful kingdom. 

What I got from the Tenets, is that he essentially left his brother with nothing, but didn't kill him (although creating the Corpus may have been worse). Parvos wanted to create a new culture that was separate from the decadent Orokin and that was based on merit and innovation in a world ruled by space magic. 

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