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Position of Oull Requiem


VaegirIan
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Curious about in what position you should put Oull and how to most efficiently use it. Soo far i've been putting it in the first slot with some success with both 2 slots being correct without knowing order and only knowing 2/3 Murmurs (Oull->Khra->Netra) where Netra was incorrect which then meant to swap Oull and Netra around which worked as a charm.

Has anyone experimented with Oull enough to know the "Best" way to use it?

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In general, Murmur is gained so fast, that all 3 Requiems will be Revealed before you have the chance try out all combos. Making Oull unnecessary for the Final Killing Blow. -by then you already know all 3, so might as well slot in the correct symbol

 

the 1 specific case to use Oull

is Early in your 'quest' where Only 1 Requiem is Revealed, and you stabbed once to discover the Revealed Requiem is Not Slot1.

in that case, put Oull in Slot1(temporarially), and Revealed in slot2. This allows you to test the position of Revealed, before Revealed2 or Revealed3 appears.

As soon as Revealed2 shows, pull Oull out and test Revealed2 as Slot1

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Having Oull in your first unknown slot also gives you an extra little boost of Kuva :P

TBH I'm happily using Oulls in the final confrontation if it means not having to jump back into Requiem Relics more then absolutely necessary.

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1 hour ago, BeepBoopMeh89 said:

I usually put it in the last slot, in case i get the first two right i don't have to farm the last one. Not sure if its the best way though!

That's usually what I do too. A lot of the time i'll find out what the third mod is before I see my lich again though.

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Initially, first slot. Occasionally you'll get a friendly Sister/Lich that likes to show up before you have identified a Requiem, this way you and others with you, can get a little more progression of you chose to stab (which I usually do). Then also... if I do identify a Requiem, I slot it second. If its wrong, I now know that it either slots in first or third. Usually... by this stage of attempting/progression, it also gives me enough progress to know the second Requiem, so I put that into the second slot, Oull still first and the first discovered Requiem in third spot, and a lot of the time this is where I beat the Sister/Lich. If not, then its a 50/50 that one of the two I have identified are the first. Oull goes into second slot, the other known third. If thats wrong then switch third for first, and also usually the third unknown is now known, so I slot that into second spot. Have only experienced the latter long way twice out of 20 plus Sisters. 

Sometimes I just ignore it though, because it can be more fun fighting a Rank 5 Sister, especially if I am considering Converting. I also got lucky with Oull drops/transmutes, I have like 8, so probably won't run out of using them.

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I only use an OULL if my Sister Lich will go to R5 on the next stab, she can spawn in at some stupid times while circles are completing, so OULL in last slot saves me a little in the final fight, I've fought R5 Sister Lich's can be more of a pain at R5. 

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40 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

I only use an OULL if my Sister Lich will go to R5 on the next stab, she can spawn in at some stupid times while circles are completing, so OULL in last slot saves me a little in the final fight, I've fought R5 Sister Lich's can be more of a pain at R5. 

This is certainly an option but if you're ending up going to R5 on your lich/sister you've already done it wrong up to that point. 90% of liches/sisters should be between rank 2 or 3. 9% end up being rank 4 and then 1% end up being rank 5. I'd suggest always using Oull... There really is no reason to save it for emergency situations. Getting Oull is pretty common in my experience.

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48 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is certainly an option but if you're ending up going to R5 on your lich/sister you've already done it wrong up to that point. 90% of liches/sisters should be between rank 2 or 3. 9% end up being rank 4 and then 1% end up being rank 5. I'd suggest always using Oull... There really is no reason to save it for emergency situations. Getting Oull is pretty common in my experience.

I should start using them more.

Mine get to R4 if all things fall in the wrong direction with her spawning in early, sometimes I'll ignore her, though R4 Sisters don't bother me so I don't mind that much, they're very quick to do, unlike the Kuva ones, I'm just grabbing every gun now for upgrades and to share with the mate, if it has an Ephemera.

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3 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I should start using them more.

Mine get to R4 if all things fall in the wrong direction with her spawning in early, sometimes I'll ignore her, though R4 Sisters don't bother me so I don't mind that much, they're very quick to do, unlike the Kuva ones, I'm just grabbing every gun now for upgrades and to share with the mate, if it has an Ephemera.

Though I hate leaving liches/sisters if you're on the first round then I'd just let them live and finish the mission if you haven't gotten enough murmurs to unlock the first mod. Generally you get enough murmurs in 2-3 missions so it is pretty rare that they spawn but yeah it does happen.

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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Though I hate leaving liches/sisters if you're on the first round then I'd just let them live and finish the mission if you haven't gotten enough murmurs to unlock the first mod. Generally you get enough murmurs in 2-3 missions so it is pretty rare that they spawn but yeah it does happen.

My Sister nearly always spawns in as I complete the first circle with the dong sound. :facepalm: 

Then I think do I stab her or just leave her standing there and check if it's even one I have equipped after extracting.

I do farm the Hounds correctly so it's a bit of an annoyance at times.

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oull do not help in solving your sequences so it doesnt matter where you put them.   The only benefit they serve is #1 to replace a mod you may be low on or #2 to fill in your sequence before you learn your last murmur.   

--------------------------

My Lich process:

  • Slap oull in 1st slot (doesnt matter) and then proceed to farm my first 2 murmurs on the Lv1 Lich planet (venus and earth?/mars? havent done alot of kuva since change)
  • Finally stab my Lv1 Lich.  (99% chance of failure)
  • Dont care about last murmur im just ready to try next sequence.... but you gotta piss of Lich.   After the 1st stab I just swap 2nd and 3rd mods around.
  • Whenever my Lich shows I make my second stab attempt.  (If my 2 known murmurs were wrong in the middle then I know my last murmur goes in the middle so I move the oull to the middle, or if I have learned my 3rd murmur by now I just use it.   If one of my 2 known murmurs was right in the middle then I know 1st and third are just in wrong order and flip em)
  • Now im up to a Lv3 Lich/3rd planet.....If I had to move oull to the middle then I am screwed.... the 1st and 3rd mods only have a 50/50 chance of being right.  In that scenario I would NOT use an ultimatum.... I would just build aggro like normal... You are for sure going to learn your 3rd murmur by now....   now your oull mod can be used to replace any of your murmurs that you are low on or just replaced with the correct mod....................     If we got the middle murmur right in the step above and I jus had 1st/3d wrong then I 100% know the sequence when I get to the 3rd planet...   in this scenario I WILL use an ultimatum to force my Lich to show up so I dont have to screw with aggro.   
  • What happens 90% of the time is I get the sequence wrong the first 3 stabs and im forced to the Lv4 Lich/planet.  I 100% know the sequence here so its ultimatum time if I have them.  Not to mention pray to god some other unlucky people are here to help with my insanely OP lich.   (Athough not to many cuz the ephemera im going for now creates lich with radiation ability)

If the damn oull mods would just reveal 1 part of sequence that would be SO MUCH BETTER!!!!!!!   Then you would never need to go above a Lv2 lich.  Your first stab would be 50/50 and the 2nd would be 100%.   Lv4 lichs is what veterans would hit all the time BEFORE oull mods came along so wtf are they helping??  They dont help with the sequence and thats what players need.   

Now, you could put oull mod in 2nd or 3rd slot and the above method would not change any.  You would still have the exact same odds of getting lucky or not lucky.  

Edited by (PSN)AbBaNdOn_
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On 2021-07-31 at 8:16 PM, BeepBoopMeh89 said:

Not sure if its the best way though

Its the only way. There is no point is stabbing the lich with a guaranteed stab if you don't know the 2nd - you might as well stab with that mod in the first position. The same applies to the 2nd position.

The only use for Oull is in that 3rd slot so you do not have to figure out what the 3rd (and longest) requiem mod is. You can now start hunting the lich down with only 2 known mods. This speeds things up immensely as you can wait to know both or begin the stabbing process with 1.5 known mods rather than the old way of taunting it when you know 2.5. If you're lucky you'll have annoyed it enough to show up just as you find that 2nd requiem.

So its only there to speed up knowing the last requiem.

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I must say keep in in the first slot until your really ready to use/decode because at least twice a teleporting sister teleported to the hound and took priority totally wasting a level and totally ruined my night. It is much worse w Lich though a lich is 10x more likely to go down in a field of thralls, then you can recover from it and lose nothing . That is just using it for protection. You can follow what others suggest as there are several strategies to save time and make for an easier fight depending on your luck.

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Sounds like you're trying find the best way to guess requiem combination form scratch. There's no best way to do this since the odds are way too small. yes people can get lucky with all three slots first try, but we can't consistently replicate luck. If it's your turn to get lucky, the oull's position won't matter.

Also there's no best position for oull. It's there to fill in the blanks, the rest is just your logic to solve the guessing game. If you know the first slot, then put it on second. If your known requiem is not first slot, then put oull on first instead. If you know first two slots and don't want to waste time looking for third requiem, then yeah put it on third. 

You can even use it as a "bait" to confirm your second and third slot, but take it off as you revealed your first slot's requiem, so you don't actually spend any oull to kill that lich.

It's a tool for you to use at your disposal to crack the puzzle. Not a magic key that can bypass any puzzle.

Edited by Soy77
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1 hour ago, Soy77 said:

Sounds like you're trying find the best way to guess requiem combination form scratch. There's no best way to do this since the odds are way too small. yes people can get lucky with all three slots first try, but we can't consistently replicate luck. If it's your turn to get lucky, the oull's position won't matter.

Also there's no best position for oull. It's there to fill in the blanks, the rest is just your logic to solve the guessing game. If you know the first slot, then put it on second. If your known requiem is not first slot, then put oull on first instead. If you know first two slots and don't want to waste time looking for third requiem, then yeah put it on third. 

You can even use it as a "bait" to confirm your second and third slot, but take it off as you revealed your first slot's requiem, so you don't actually spend any oull to kill that lich.

It's a tool for you to use at your disposal to crack the puzzle. Not a magic key that can bypass any puzzle.

This.  The "best" way to use Oull depends on how much you know at that time, whether you mind fighting the lich for an extra 1/3 health bar for some kuva, and whether or not you care about saving up extra Oulls.  Since I do not mind fighting the lich a little bit more and I always want to try and save up my Oulls, here's my strategy:

1. When I know nothing: Oull, Random 1, Random 2.  Pretty self-explanatory.  I have a 1/8 chance of guessing the 2nd word correctly and a 1/56 chance of getting everything correct and losing a charge on my Oull.  This is contrasted with a 1/336 chance guessing correctly if I did not use Oull at all.

2. When I know 1 Word, but not its position: Oull, Known Word, Random 1.  I'm basically testing to see if the Known Word goes in position 2.  I have a 1/3 chance of the Known Word being in position 2, and a 1/21 chance of getting position 2 and 3 correct and losing a charge on my Oull.

2a. When the above fails so I know 1 Word, and only that it does not go in position 2: Known Word, Oull, Random 1.  I'm testing to see if the Known Word goes in position 1.  I now have a 1/2 chance of the Known Word being in position 1, and a 1/14 chance of passing and losing a charge on my Oull.

3. When I know 2 Words: I stop using Oull.  If I already know a Word's position (or where it does not go), then obviously I adjust the 2 known Words accordingly.  If you use Oull in this situation, you have at least a 1/6 chance of it succeeding (if you knew nothing about Word 1 or Word 2's right or wrong positions).  If you knew the exact position of 1 Word and used Oull, you have a 1/2 chance of succeeding.  But both will cost you an Oull charge.

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On 2021-07-31 at 3:07 PM, VaegirIan said:

Curious about in what position you should put Oull and how to most efficiently use it. Soo far i've been putting it in the first slot with some success with both 2 slots being correct without knowing order and only knowing 2/3 Murmurs (Oull->Khra->Netra) where Netra was incorrect which then meant to swap Oull and Netra around which worked as a charm.

Has anyone experimented with Oull enough to know the "Best" way to use it?

I only use it after unlocking two of the murmurs, then keep smacking my Lich until I figure out which spot they go in. Then I let Quell take up the remining slot.

Makes the Lich farming go by faster, imo.

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On 2021-08-28 at 8:11 AM, ---VS--Matiz753 said:

best way is x-x-oull becuse you must discover anyway minimum of 2 of them so place oull in first slot is usless, in last mos efficency, you not waste of time

this is completely backwards.

using oull in the last spot is an immense waste of time....and oull mods. you should never even use up your oull mods. you should have already figured out the sequence before you get to putting oull in the 3rd spot. the way you do that is by putting it in the first position that you do not know.

ive been using the same oull mod for the past 15 sisters. when you do it right...they last nearly forever.

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On 2021-08-19 at 8:50 PM, gbjbaanb said:

Its the only way. There is no point is stabbing the lich with a guaranteed stab if you don't know the 2nd - you might as well stab with that mod in the first position. The same applies to the 2nd position.

The only use for Oull is in that 3rd slot so you do not have to figure out what the 3rd (and longest) requiem mod is. You can now start hunting the lich down with only 2 known mods. This speeds things up immensely as you can wait to know both or begin the stabbing process with 1.5 known mods rather than the old way of taunting it when you know 2.5. If you're lucky you'll have annoyed it enough to show up just as you find that 2nd requiem.

So its only there to speed up knowing the last requiem.

so wrong.

i posted a video that explains how this works earlier in the thread.

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On 2021-08-28 at 11:24 AM, MqToasty said:

1. When I know nothing: Oull, Random 1, Random 2.  Pretty self-explanatory.  I have a 1/8 chance of guessing the 2nd word correctly and a 1/56 chance of getting everything correct and losing a charge on my Oull.  This is contrasted with a 1/336 chance guessing correctly if I did not use Oull at all.

2. When I know 1 Word, but not its position: Oull, Known Word, Random 1.  I'm basically testing to see if the Known Word goes in position 2.  I have a 1/3 chance of the Known Word being in position 2, and a 1/21 chance of getting position 2 and 3 correct and losing a charge on my Oull.

In scenario 1 though nothing changes if you do random 1 / random 2 / oull.  It doesn't matter where you put the oull because regardless of position you have to brute force guess two times.  This is kind why the premise of this thread is silly to me because everyone's "best" is basically the same even though different.

But the real point with scenario 1 is that if you don't know anything then the "best" guess is to not guess at all.  Just don't stab if you don't know at least one word and I'm saying that as a person that religiously stabbed liches every opportunity before the sisters update.  Now it's different because they took so much grind out of the murmur farm and we'll see even more reduction in that with the next release hopefully.  A 1/56 chance is not good enough to justify resetting the anger meter.

In scenario 2 I don't think you are wrong but it's also not purely that simple.  I've seen a bunch of people suggest what you do, including you here, so I tried it on several liches/sisters.  The end result for me is every time I was wrong.  For me personally RNG puts the first word identified in the left slot at least 75% of time.   So when I attempt known 1 / random / oull I have MUCH more success.   Yes this is RNG for me and your mileage will vary but I will never use oull first on my first attempted stab.

Here again though, nothing really changes overall with which position you choose for oull.  You have a 1/3 chance you put the known word in the correct slot and a 1/7 chance you put a random correct word in the slot that isn't oull.  You don't learn anything extra about the ordering and you don't increase the odds of killing the lich on the stab regardless of the oull spot.

Lastly, I use an oull on every lich/sister regardless.  Frankly I get and have more oull than any other word so using one saves me the hassle of farming requiem relics as often.  Heck, I've even transmuted an oull from four defiled mods.

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50 minutes ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

In scenario 1 though nothing changes if you do random 1 / random 2 / oull.  It doesn't matter where you put the oull because regardless of position you have to brute force guess two times.  This is kind why the premise of this thread is silly to me because everyone's "best" is basically the same even though different.

Actually, because the system always tests from left to right, there is a difference -- by doing it my way you are guaranteed to fight the lich for at least 2 Health segments, meaning a little bit more fighting and a little bit more kuva.  I do not mind the extra fighting or the extra kuva, so I always start with Oull / Random / Random.

53 minutes ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

But the real point with scenario 1 is that if you don't know anything then the "best" guess is to not guess at all.  Just don't stab if you don't know at least one word and I'm saying that as a person that religiously stabbed liches every opportunity before the sisters update.  Now it's different because they took so much grind out of the murmur farm and we'll see even more reduction in that with the next release hopefully.  A 1/56 chance is not good enough to justify resetting the anger meter.

This has been argued to the death in so many General Discussion threads, so I suggest going there and not mucking up OP's thread.  But all I'm going to say about this here is that I am an Always Stabber because most other players in my region are also Always Stabbers.  Anecdotally, this means the overall murmur gain amongst all players is about 33% faster than a region full of players following your strategy.

59 minutes ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

In scenario 2 I don't think you are wrong but it's also not purely that simple.  I've seen a bunch of people suggest what you do, including you here, so I tried it on several liches/sisters.  The end result for me is every time I was wrong.  For me personally RNG puts the first word identified in the left slot at least 75% of time.   So when I attempt known 1 / random / oull I have MUCH more success.   Yes this is RNG for me and your mileage will vary but I will never use oull first on my first attempted stab.

Here again though, nothing really changes overall with which position you choose for oull.  You have a 1/3 chance you put the known word in the correct slot and a 1/7 chance you put a random correct word in the slot that isn't oull.  You don't learn anything extra about the ordering and you don't increase the odds of killing the lich on the stab regardless of the oull spot.

Well, RNG is RNG.  For me, I've had a fairly even split between all 3 slots for the first identified Word and I have never heard of a serious suggestion that it might be weighted.  See the first part of my reply for why I put Oull first.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

Lastly, I use an oull on every lich/sister regardless.  Frankly I get and have more oull than any other word so using one saves me the hassle of farming requiem relics as often.  Heck, I've even transmuted an oull from four defiled mods.

Good for you!  I have a big stockpile of Oulls and every other Requiem mod, but I enjoy being a cheapass so I'm saving up my Oulls.

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6 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Actually, because the system always tests from left to right, there is a difference -- by doing it my way you are guaranteed to fight the lich for at least 2 Health segments, meaning a little bit more fighting and a little bit more kuva.  I do not mind the extra fighting or the extra kuva, so I always start with Oull / Random / Random.

Not trying to argue with you by any means, just want to clarify that when I say there is no difference I mean that strictly speaking about finishing the lich.  If you want to layer on added considerations like a minimally small amount of kuva then go for it.  I think the kuva is irrelevant but that's me.

 

9 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Anecdotally, this means the overall murmur gain amongst all players is about 33% faster than a region full of players following your strategy.

I'm a solo player.  How fast someone else finishes their lich is not something I care about.  I do care about how fast I finish one and that is directly impacted in a severely negative way by resetting the anger meter without good reason.  If getting the murmurs were the only consideration then I'd agree with the always stab camp, but unfortunately it is not.  You need the murmurs AND you need the lich to appear. 

And yes, I acknowledge that murmur hunting is faster in a squad.  That doesn't make me want to do it xD.  Although to be honest I do start each planet with the defense nodes on public.  I do get a bump in murmurs that way and it's unlikely my own lich appears (thus avoiding the do I or don't I stab dilemma).

 

10 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Well, RNG is RNG.  For me, I've had a fairly even split between all 3 slots for the first identified Word and I have never heard of a serious suggestion that it might be weighted.

I'm not suggesting anything is weighted toward the first slot.  I just don't fight my own personal RNG which so far across 20 sisters and nearly that number of liches post sisters is that my 1st word is very often in the left slot.  Fighting RNG only makes you unhappy.

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Agent_CHAR said:

Not trying to argue with you by any means, just want to clarify that when I say there is no difference I mean that strictly speaking about finishing the lich.  If you want to layer on added considerations like a minimally small amount of kuva then go for it.  I think the kuva is irrelevant but that's me.

I'm a solo player.  How fast someone else finishes their lich is not something I care about.  I do care about how fast I finish one and that is directly impacted in a severely negative way by resetting the anger meter without good reason.  If getting the murmurs were the only consideration then I'd agree with the always stab camp, but unfortunately it is not.  You need the murmurs AND you need the lich to appear. 

And yes, I acknowledge that murmur hunting is faster in a squad.  That doesn't make me want to do it xD.  Although to be honest I do start each planet with the defense nodes on public.  I do get a bump in murmurs that way and it's unlikely my own lich appears (thus avoiding the do I or don't I stab dilemma).

I'm not suggesting anything is weighted toward the first slot.  I just don't fight my own personal RNG which so far across 20 sisters and nearly that number of liches post sisters is that my 1st word is very often in the left slot.  Fighting RNG only makes you unhappy.

Right, so as I wrote in my first post, there are only small differences and the "best" way depends on your preferences on these small differences.  I do not mind fighting an extra health bar, so why not trickle-farm some extra kuva?

If you essentially hunt liches solo exclusively, then yes, you are utilizing the most optimal method.  You are still less efficient than doing PUGs on a server with everyone using your strategy, but you get to avoid playing with other players.  I played solo exclusively until well after I cleared the star chart, I so understand where you are coming from.  Now I play PUGs most of the time because I'm mostly doing activities that are much more efficient in a group (cracking relics, murmur farming, etc.), but still switch back to Solo for other activities.

Well that is the Gambler's Fallacy right there.  But as long as you are having fun, it's alright since your choice of Oull placement won't affect anyone else's enjoyment.

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