Trivialization Of Warframes.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Except that I don't think we should do either.  That kind of thinking is too rigid.  The real thing we should be doing is seeing how we can make damage useful in the late game without making it silly in the early game.

 

Perhaps another +Power Strength mod.  Or maybe Armor 2.0 will change how late game enemies work so ability damage can remain useful from early game to end game.  Or ability damages should be changed to/receive portions of %HP.

 

For instance, nerfing Excalibur's javelins by half, and then allowing it to do 50% or so of an enemy's HP in serrated blade damage.  That's an arbitrary number and might be stupidly overpowered/not powerful enough, but you get the general idea.

Sure. But you agree that nerfing everything is a bad idea, yes?

[413X]

 

So the solution is to now buff everything to a faceroll?

How about no.

 

If you really want to make a difference in the usefulness of abilities you need to look at the enemy AI.

 

I feel like I am literally the only person advocating this, the AI (and debatablely the variety and scaling) is the core problem in this game. We have made everything SO powerful without stepping back to look at what we are fighting. The AI is un communicative, leading to bullet spongy like enemies, which in turn means that EVERYTHING needs to be on the same general utility or damage level as everything else to make a balanced game. Buffing is just gonna lead to a #4key_prime game where you never need to do anything.

 

I could rant about this for hours. There is SO much potential in this engine and game it's ridiculous, but we just wanna turn it into a faceroll because we don't wanna adress the core problems.

 

 

Hmm, I actually see where you are coming from on this. However everyone atm seems to be at the misconception that I meant that they should be nerfed "for the hek of it" and "other S#&$". I am saying they need a nerf because not only are they the best all around frames but they are also the easiest. There is such a high skill floor/reward imbalance it is hard to justify them being balanced. It is ridiculous to think that just because another frame beats them at ONE situation they are balanced, because more time then naught they just fill every role they need to. Every other frame pales in comparison. 

I am speaking in experience right now, I actually had a rhino a while back, and just finished leveling nova. They faceroll EVERYTHING. They are the fastest and best in class in their roles.

 

 

How can you say that the core problem is with enemy design and AI, and then go on to suggest the solution is to nerf Rhino and Nova? Isn't that basically saying nerf Rhino and Nova "for the hek of it" rather than solving the problem?

[lautalocos]

but its a PvE game.. why does this matter?

you are right, DE should now release god-mode cheats for everyone, just because it is a PVE game.

[lautalocos]

oh, and people, remember that there is no such thing as "FULL NERF" and "FULL BUFF".

 

DE can do the 2 things at the same time, you know?

[Ronyn]

I've gone entire high level defense missions with nearly every enemy stuck in bastille.....

leaving them nothing but floating targets.

 

Considering stuff like that its pretty silly to single out a frame like rhino.

[Cwierz]

How can you say that the core problem is with enemy design and AI, and then go on to suggest the solution is to nerf Rhino and Nova? Isn't that basically saying nerf Rhino and Nova "for the hek of it" rather than solving the problem?

Because it is fairly obvious that it isn't going to get fixed. Everything right now is being driven towards new content, hell we don't even know when the most basic balancing update (armor 2.0) is coming out. Don't pretend like the suggestion to do a revamp of AI (make them smarter and better, instead of exponentially scaling their damage/bulk) is actually going to get done. The best ideas on the forums for the players are often ignored. It is the simple changes that get acted upon, and if you really think that 

a- buffing everything

or

b- not nerfing

is really gonna fix the issue then you should realize that 

a- the game will become easymode

and

b- the imbalance will become stupid

The best and easiest solution right now is to 

nova - remove one aspect from novas ult (damage, mobility nerf, or damage modifier)

rhino- (scale down his abilities and make iron skin a skill like pre-nerf overheat)

[BlueIstari]

So the solution is to now buff everything to a faceroll?

How about no.

 

Please quote where I said to buff everything.

[413X]

Because it is fairly obvious that it isn't going to get fixed. Everything right now is being driven towards new content, hell we don't even know when the most basic balancing update (armor 2.0) is coming out. Don't pretend like the suggestion to do a revamp of AI (make them smarter and better, instead of exponentially scaling their damage/bulk) is actually going to get done. The best ideas on the forums for the players are often ignored. It is the simple changes that get acted upon, and if you really think that 

a- buffing everything

or

b- not nerfing

is really gonna fix the issue then you should realize that 

a- the game will become easymode

and

b- the imbalance will become stupid

The best and easiest solution right now is to 

nova - remove one aspect from novas ult (damage, mobility nerf, or damage modifier)

rhino- (scale down his abilities and make iron skin a skill like pre-nerf overheat)

So basically, because you cannot get the fix you want, you want to ruin the game even further? Because nerfing either of the warframes is not going to help with the AI problems, and if they aren't fixed, then the game is pretty much headed to an early end. Making the game more "difficult" but not more interesting is just going to drive players away and solves nothing in the end.

[ThePresident777]

Because it is fairly obvious that it isn't going to get fixed. Everything right now is being driven towards new content, hell we don't even know when the most basic balancing update (armor 2.0) is coming out. Don't pretend like the suggestion to do a revamp of AI (make them smarter and better, instead of exponentially scaling their damage/bulk) is actually going to get done. The best ideas on the forums for the players are often ignored. It is the simple changes that get acted upon, and if you really think that 

a- buffing everything

or

b- not nerfing

is really gonna fix the issue then you should realize that 

a- the game will become easymode

and

b- the imbalance will become stupid

The best and easiest solution right now is to 

nova - remove one aspect from novas ult (damage, mobility nerf, or damage modifier)

rhino- (scale down his abilities and make iron skin a skill like pre-nerf overheat)

 

Ever done a level 150 mission?  You can't say the game is easy when it has levels that are brutal.  The problem is that the really difficult level are locked behind easy levels(defense waves) or RNG(nightmare mode challenges).

[Thelonious]

Ai issues are irrelevant when you can kill most enemies before they shoot at you. Or even before they can see you.  Or when they just tickle you anyway.

 

If it means the mobs need to be lvl 80+ to have any effect on you, then 90% of the game is boring. Oh wait, it's the case.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Thelonious

[alocrius]

 The community has already spoken, don't nerf x, make y better.  But DE do their own thing anyway if you haven't noticed already. 

[413X]

Ai issues are irrelevant when you can kill most enemies before they shoot at you. Or even before they can see you.  Or when they just tickle you anyway.

 

If it means the mobs need to be lvl 80+ to have any effect on you, then 90% of the game is boring. Oh wait, it's the case.

 

Don't bring high-level warframes to lower levels if you want a challenge. All warframes can dominate lower level maps with the right loadout of mods and weapons, at least in terms of killing mobs. Of course, when it comes to stuff like defending a target, your mileage may vary.

 

Even tinfoil armour Loki can do endless invisibility and just massacre hapless mobs with the Brakk, or barring exclusive weapons, stuff like a potatoed and formaed Flux Rifle, especially with the help of Narrowminded Mod which pushes the duration of invisibility up to 30 seconds.

 

Without better AI, it just becomes a contest of which side wears heavier armour and carries bigger guns.

 

I'd actually like to see a hard limit to enemy units in a map, kind of like in Extermination missions (except for Survival and Endless Defense where it would defeat the purpose). But then allow for instances like reinforcements arriving from outside. Coupled with improved AI, this would really force the players to choose between play styles. They could run and gun and risk calling down an alert which could bring more troops into the area as reinforcements (a timer would indicate how long till these reinforcements arrive), or stealth kill (or just plain stealth) their way to the objective (and get awarded bonus equipment affinity for remaining undetected to offset the exp loss from not killiing enemies).

[Cwierz]

So basically, because you cannot get the fix you want, you want to ruin the game even further? Because nerfing either of the warframes is not going to help with the AI problems, and if they aren't fixed, then the game is pretty much headed to an early end. Making the game more "difficult" but not more interesting is just going to drive players away and solves nothing in the end.

I clearly stated that the AI change isn't going to happen unless DE becomes coding gods. They are too small of a company to really pull off that kind of stuff in one week/month. 

Also, nerfing the two frames does make the game better. I means you see more variety of things being used. Don't pretend like all you see anymore is strun wraiths somas and the ignis. The weapons are bad enough, but the frames are at least salvageable. 

 

Also, because we have agreed that the AI is the core problem, we should move onto how when the AI and enemies are no longer bullet sponges vegetables that then the game can get balanced in a orderly fassion that is good for every frame.

 

I mean if the AI gets fixed to be more challenging then I am all for the buff everything to around the same level club, but at the current state it is becoming unhealthy for the game.

[413X]

I clearly stated that the AI change isn't going to happen unless DE becomes coding gods. They are too small of a company to really pull off that kind of stuff in one week/month. 

Also, nerfing the two frames does make the game better. I means you see more variety of things being used. Don't pretend like all you see anymore is strun wraiths somas and the ignis. The weapons are bad enough, but the frames are at least salvageable. 

 

Also, because we have agreed that the AI is the core problem, we should move onto how when the AI and enemies are no longer bullet sponges vegetables that then the game can get balanced in a orderly fassion that is good for every frame.

 

I mean if the AI gets fixed to be more challenging then I am all for the buff everything to around the same level club, but at the current state it is becoming unhealthy for the game.

 

I did not ask for a "quick fix" which is what you seem to want, but a true fix that addresses the core issues. So yeah, they can take some time to implement it but it needs to happen. I can wait. But the kind of jury-rigging you're suggesting is unneccesary since when the big fix happens they will probably need to rebalance everything anyway. Not to mention the upcoming introduction of a new damage and melee system.

 

As for pretending that there is no longer any variety in weapon loadouts, I wonder how often you play and who you play with. I have strun wraith and soma (sold the ignis). These days my default primary is flux rifle. Default secondary being Brakk. But I switch frequently, sometimes using Ogris or Vectis or even my old Braton Vandal. Same goes for secondary weapons. And the people I meet in PuG carry Paris Primes, Lankas, etc. not just Somas. And FYI, my Soma is still unpotatoed even though I have 5 spare catalysts.

 

Same with WFs. I meet great players in PuG wearing Excalibur that last to the final minutes of extraction for survival runs (of course the nature of PuGs means I also meet really terrible players from time to time). But I certainly haven't had a problem with seeing nothing but Rhinos and Novas in every match.

 

Admittedly, these choices are limited to the number of slots, so it is understandable that players with only 2 slots would want "sure bets" for their roster. So making threads like these and perpetuating the myth of how Rhinos and Novas are the best two frames in the game is only going to further contribute to this problem (if it even exists), since they would think "hey i have only 2 slots and lots of people complain that these 2 frames are OP so i'll get them hur hur" instead of trying out the other frames to see if they like them more.

 

Actually, regarding the issue of available slots, do you even own a Rhino or Nova? As in, are you USING A SLOT for those frames, rather than just having owned one in the past. Because otherwise, people might think you're just arguing for something that you're not using to be nerfed, because it would not affect you negatively anyway. I'm not saying that is really what you're doing, but it could certainly be perceived that way.

 

I have used and mastered every warframe and am keeping Mag Prime, Frost Prime, Nyx, Rhino, Excalibur, Loki, Vauban and Nova. You may say "Aha! So these are the warframes that are better than the ones that you sold! They must be nerfed so that they are on par with Ember, Nekros, Ash, Saryn, Banshee or Trinity, which must automatically be bad because you sold them right?"

 

And I would have to say "Trinity, the Eternal Invulnerability Frame that keeps the whole team alive regardless of whatever the enemy throws at them, is bad? Are you serious??"

 

I agonised over which frames to keep because of the limited slots I had. In the end, it was more a question of play style that decided their fate, with the exception of Frost Prime and Vauban, which are there because utility demands them for defence missions. (Though I also know some players who don't keep them and just rely on someone else on the team to bring 'em).

 

Again, FYI, only Excalibur and Rhino have been potatoed. As a matter of fact, is it not sad that the supposedly ALMIGHTY GAMEBREAKING HAX LOL Rhino needs to be POTATOED to keep up with an unpotatoed Frost Prime and Vauban? Oh and yeah I have 6 spare reactors, and do note the Frost is already a PRIME version.

Edited November 4, 2013 by 413X

[Helljack84]

There are different worlds in this game.

A fixed environment with scaling lvls where damage warframes steamroll everything. And stupid high level content where some abilities/warframes become obsolete.

 

Are we supposed to go there?

Normal content could be steamrolled months ago...by sentinels. Considering we get stronger weapons and mods all the time I guess we are.

 

How to balance an ability that deals damage? How to balance normal abilities vs ultimates?

How much damage is too low vs infinite hp/instantkills you and not too much vs mercury pumpkineer?

How to balance mods that increase this damage but also multipliers on abilities that amplify damage?

 

How to balance an ability that deals damage vs an ability that [changes the game]?

How to balance an ability that changes the game?

Anywhere on a range from "10% less damage" (which will still kill you in a single hit at some point) to take no damage at all.

eg Iron Skin: godmode->extra shields->hey, I'm sill alive->dead anyway vs blessing: rainbows

 

How to balance abilities that deal damage and change the game?

 

Considering all this^ what's overpowered? what's underpowered?

Edited November 4, 2013 by Helljack84

[ra9una]

For the first and probably the last time in my life I'll follow the example of the french education system:

 

"I understand your point, and to some objective degree respect it. But because your presentation was incorrect you get no acknowledgment and  your ideas are irelevant."

 

The point being, I get it, I'm sick of seeing rhino everywhere, but saying he trivialises everything else is more or less subjective. is it trivial to have fun? yes is, but it's equally trivial to be min-maxing in a video game, people kind of do whatever they want, and thus it's only trivialising when the games design interferes with there purposes.

[Philosopher]

Idk, I've seen quite a few Rhino's get blasted on T3 Defense whereas my loki can make it through without a scratch.

[fatpig84]

Idk, I've seen quite a few Rhino's get blasted on T3 Defense whereas my loki can make it through without a scratch.

 

At higher levels Iron skin doesn't mean for much, but Radial Disarm rocks a lot more. 

Then with snowglobe and everyone moving slow-mo, a Loki can chop dem down easily.

[NikolaiLev]

I have one question to the "Buff everything and nerf nothing!" crowd

What happens when you buff everything to the point where the game plays itself?

Do you then buff up the enemies to the same level to provide the challenge and fun?

Once you do that wouldn't you just be back at the same level everything is at now?  (Besides the fact that the numbers are larger but porpotionally the same?)

So wouldn't to be faster, easier, and better to just lower the stuff to a reasonable level then the long path of buffing *everything*(including the enemies) to some arbitrarily high level?

I mean, whats really the difference from dealing 10 damage to something with 100 health, as compared to dealing 100 damage to something with 1000 health?  It'll take the same effort and time and everything it does now...so why buff all the numbers up when it wont really serve a purpose and will just be harder to really balance?

EDIT:

As an example of how the "Buff everything" goes in game (And I have seen this happen in a few MMOs):

You deal 10 damage while the enemies have 100 health.  Takes you 10 hits to kill them.

People start calling for buffs because things are hard due to tactics and other things.

So they buff the weapons to dealing 50 damage.

Now people start calling to make the game harder because its too easy.

So they buff the enemies health to 500

Now that everything is back to what it was before (again, baring that now things are just 5 times larger numbers) they start calling for buffs because its too hard....and the cycle repeats.

That is what I find wrong with the people calling for no nerfs whatsoever and that only buffs should be issued.

When making a game you CANT take stands like that.  You have to look to BALANCE a game through BOTH buffs AND nerfs.  And while the numbers I used are BS(and that I had cut out quite a few iterations of this) it serves to showcase the point Im trying to bring up.

 

This is already a thing.  It's called "power creep" and it's the bane of games of all genres.  Buffs are preferred by developers because they don't want to anger their customers, who get attached to overpowered weapons and feel they suddenly become worthless simply because they got nerfed, even if the nerf was so trivial that thing is still overpowered.

 

It's psychology.  People aren't terribly bright, especially when they get on forums and groupthink themselves into the idea that a nerf was far too brutal, or that a weapon isn't actually overpowered at all.

 

Ideally, a design document is strictly adhered to and buffs and nerfs are meted out in equal measure.  However, DE seems to be deliberately using power creep, considering the trend of things like the Galatine, Vectis and the Soma.  This would make sense from a business standpoint; retire old weapons, making them "exclusive" so older players don't realize they're stuck with a subpar weapon that will stay bad, while they release a shiny new replacement people will inevitably buy with platinum.

 

I hope I'm wrong about that bad and it's just wild paranoia.  But it really does seem like greed at this point; eschewing good balance design for profiteering.

[SanityRobot]

If two pieces of content trivialze every other frame in the game (with a couple of exceptions) then that isn't right. I don't care how much you scream "STOP NERFING THINGS!!1!one!eleven!" It needs to happen. It is SO much easier to nerf to things than to bring every other piece of content up to par with them, not to mention helping with powercreep.

 

Upvoted, but it doesn't matter...DE is on the power creep train to oblivion. Not sure if they see that the game is dying and are just trying to ride the Titantic as long as they can by repeatedly releasing crap stronger and stronger than the previous crap, or if they are just wildly incompetent.

 

Hell, the last wave of hotfixes buffed Nova. Seriously. Of all the bugs with other frames, let's fix a bug that was slightly hindering Nova...it's disappointing to say the least.

[SanityRobot]

Regardless, I'm done spending money on this game. I've spent hundreds, but even the power creep is power creeping. Just not worth it.

[RMSGM]

They kinda fixed Rhino by modifiying his 3 skill, now i´m waiting for Ash and Excalibur for example to be fixed too, one has a useless jump and the other a useless teleport, how about make something like you did to Rhino DE? Excalibur 3 skill could buff melee and Ash 3 skill could stealth other warframes buffing their crits.. i dunno something because right now some warframe skills are plain laughable, and there´s no game i play where a Rhino or Nova isn´t present so there´s obviously something very wrong here DE.

[zzang]

someone want to nerf the frames who have 3 to 4 usefull abilities in the game  (the frames which are very well done)

 

while the most frames and the crap frames have 1-2 useful abilities

 

whats the solution of the uninspired crappy nerfer? right nerf the 3 to 4 good ability frames down to the frames with 1-2 useful abilities

 

WHAT nonsense seriously, stop trying to destroy the game with such crap suggestions.

Edited November 5, 2013 by zzang

[Pizzarugi]

Here's some ideas to fix the situation without nerfing frames/abilities:

1. Move the frame components around to be dropped by bosses appropriate to the frame's usefulness. Rhino should be much higher than he is now in this example.

2. Make all frames require a certain mastery rank to use. Rhino too strong, but too difficult to obtain from fighting a much stronger boss (based on first idea)? Buy with platinum, after you reach mastery 6.

 

I never had a problem with frames being better than others. Am I aware Nyx is extremely good? Yes. Did I buy Nyx because she is extremely good? No. I bought her because I love anarchy and mayhem, and chaos gives me what I want, beyond being useful in and of itself.

 

Same reason I got Rhino. Did I get him because he's among the best frames? Certainly not. I got him because he's capable of soloing everything, meaning I'm not obligated to play with pubs in order to complete higher levels.

[NikolaiLev]

Here's some ideas to fix the situation without nerfing frames/abilities:

1. Move the frame components around to be dropped by bosses appropriate to the frame's usefulness. Rhino should be much higher than he is now in this example.

2. Make all frames require a certain mastery rank to use. Rhino too strong, but too difficult to obtain from fighting a much stronger boss (based on first idea)? Buy with platinum, after you reach mastery 6.

 

I never had a problem with frames being better than others. Am I aware Nyx is extremely good? Yes. Did I buy Nyx because she is extremely good? No. I bought her because I love anarchy and mayhem, and chaos gives me what I want, beyond being useful in and of itself.

 

Same reason I got Rhino. Did I get him because he's among the best frames? Certainly not. I got him because he's capable of soloing everything, meaning I'm not obligated to play with pubs in order to complete higher levels.

 

 

That wouldn't fix anything.  That'd just make the game more tedious.  Things should not be balanced according to how difficult they are to get, nor by their mastery rank.  Looking at the Galatine and the Vectis, I'd say the developers at least agree with that one.