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What did people like about raids?


NecroPed
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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

I’m not gonna defend them, they had there problems and were a massive CC gear check for sure. But those 3 trails were more than just standing on a circle. 

I'm well aware, but what I meant from that was the only thing that felt tested across the entirety of the raids was my patience with standing on those circles while not being ALLOWED to do anything else. I didn't feel like the rest of the raid was enough of a test of skill or gear. The only thing that I felt was truly tested was my patience with standing on that circle, and boy was my patience tested... Maybe testing my patience with some of the other parts too.. I'm not saying the raid was just standing on a circle. But, if my patience is the only thing that feels like it's being tested across the entire raid then I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the game mode. 

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15 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

do wonder how current Warframes and gear would fare in those old raids though. Trinity was a necessity back then, and CC was king. Could probably solo old raids with the stuff we have now. 

We’ll definitely. Just like how we can solo eidolons now. Difference was we could play with double the players for trials. And had to coordinate our movements. 

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6 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I'm well aware, but what I meant from that was the only thing that felt tested across the entirety of the raids was my patience with standing on those circles while not being ALLOWED to do anything else. I didn't feel like the rest of the raid was enough of a test of skill or gear. The only thing that I felt was truly tested was my patience with standing on that circle, and boy was my patience tested... Maybe testing my patience with some of the other parts too.. I'm not saying the raid was just standing on a circle. But, if my patience is the only thing that feels like it's being tested across the entire raid then I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the game mode. 

then you could get into all kinds of issues. Not just with what’s wrong with the game mode but what’s wrong with the game core.  I mean DE loves mobile defense, or standing in a circle waiting on a timer. That’s the majority of what this game is currently. But I understand where your coming from. Personally I’m done hoping Warframe could evolve to be more than what we have now. 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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1 minute ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

then you could get into all kinds of issues. Not just with what’s wrong with the game mode but what’s wrong with the game core.  I mean DE loves mobile defense, or standing in a circle waiting on a timer. That’s the majority of what this game is currently. But I understand where your coming from. And WF will never really be that kinda of game. 

I can see that. But, the difference (except kela de thaym fight) between them and raids is your movement isn't completely halted. You still have freedom of movement in those contained areas. 

Honestly if they replaced the circle pads with a closed room per person that kept sending enemies at you and needed to be killed while the others set up their kill rooms I'd have found it far more enjoyable (though still a bit of issues with it as a whole). Being limited to a room/area is far more forgiving than standing completely still and potentially screwing up everyones mission because the game isn't built around standing completely still.

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27 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Yeah, ONE OF MY REASAONS for not liking raids was that it was OFTEN a game of listening to the guy who knew how to do it regardless of if I knew how to do it or not. It was frustrating as hell having my entire time playing a game mode dictated by someone else

Which is exactly why having good clan mates IS good justification for enjoying Raids because that was never an issue for me. Nobody ordered each other around, we all knew what to do and we were too busy sabotaging each other for fun. This whole conception that a game mode must appeal to everyone or be considered trash is hilarious to me. It's called diversity, it's a good thing.

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4 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

We’ll definitely. Just like how we can solo eidolons now. Difference was we could play with double the players for trials. And had to coordinate our movements. 

8 players would be super overkill for raids.

I think Railjack would've been a good opportunity for new raids with 2 full squads. Have players on ships, doing missions on bases, and others doing something AW. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Which is exactly why having good clan mates IS good justification for enjoying Raids because that was never an issue for me. Nobody ordered each other around, we all knew what to do and we were too busy sabotaging each other for fun. This whole conception that a game mode must appeal to everyone or be considered trash is hilarious to me. It's called diversity, it's a good thing.

"too busy sabotaging eachother for fun" so were you even playing the raid as intended? Did you actually ENJOY the core gameplay of the raids if you weren't screwing around?

Edit: If a game mode becomes fun when you screw around or sabotage your friends (Unless it's worked into the mode as a feature) then I don't think it's a very good game mode to begin with.

Edited by NecroPed
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Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I think Railjack would've been a good opportunity for new raids with 2 full squads. Have players on ships, doing missions on bases, and others doing something AW. 

That's actually why I brought this up, I wouldn't be surprised if DE were gearing up to reintroduce raids of some sort using railjack and squad link. I think it has the potential for some solid missions. 

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Just now, NecroPed said:

"too busy sabotaging eachother for fun" so were you even playing the raid as intended? Did you actually ENJOY the core gameplay of the raids if you weren't screwing around?

We were still completing the tasks and completing the raid but for example we were seeing if we could crash someone's pc by spamming vauban bastilles, or dropping jump pads and wormholeing ppl into them, completing raids with 8 of 1 frame eg 8 Ash or 8 Atlas etc. That sorta thing. One of my clan mates made a video of beating the Raid using only fishing spears for fun. You make your own fun in this game with the arsenal provided.

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Depending on each person taste

- Co-op content, some may see this as forced co-op

- Communication, some may see it as "listen to one man who knows it best"

- Difficulty, depending on what part of it is difficult

Me? I don't really like raids because most of the time, raids are designed as 'Simon says' layered with unnecessary mechanics to make it requiring "communication" and "teamwork" or team wipe. Hell, if that's what you want, you can go duo a necramech with one player being tank using Guardian Derision while the other one being DPS. Teamwork

Unless there's a raid that isn't filled with unnecessary things, which I doubt there's any, I prefer doing things alone considering we have this abomination called public spy where going with random is better avoided

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Just now, NecroPed said:

That's actually why I brought this up, I wouldn't be surprised if DE were gearing up to reintroduce raids of some sort using railjack and squad link. I think it has the potential for some solid missions. 

This is something I have previously brought up. It was my understanding that their engine simply cannot properly support it.

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9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

8 players would be super overkill for raids.

I think Railjack would've been a good opportunity for new raids with 2 full squads. Have players on ships, doing missions on bases, and others doing something AW. 

That would be neat. But Scott blew that idea out of the water when he said Warframes engine limitations wouldn’t let players raid a ship while other players were on a railjack in the same instance. That’s why everyone has to go into the enemy capital ship (or is forced) when confronting litches or a different game mode. That’s also why squad link wasn’t really squad link, there was no link. 

Edited by (XBOX)YoungGunn82
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4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I always wondered why they didn't implement more reasons for us to kill in raids. Half of it was about avoiding the enemies. Weird.

They recognize that issue with LoR and made it so killing could take the spotlight in JV.

My best guess with LoR is that they underestimated the appropriate amount of CC-enemies that should be in it and their spawn rate. They failed to realized they made it so that we played CC.  It was pretty obvious when they added Nullifier Drones in NM that they asked themselves "how do we tackle their CC" instead of "why are they preferring cc over everything else".

Hopefully their past mistakes on old Draco, enemy scaling, and so on makes them more careful as to not make content that gravitates us towards a playstyle they didn't want.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

12 hours? Nah man not even close more like 2-4 hours. 12 hours is an exaggeration by someone who’s never done raids or didn’t have the ability to learn.  The “raid bus” was a thing of beauty. But wasn’t well known. My clan and myself help many of the average player do trials thanks to the raid bus. IMO was a good place to learn if you could be taught. But that’s all gone now. Shame. 

i was referring to destiny raids there specifically. As i previously mentioned i didnt bother with Warframes raids. 

They also only existed during my busiest college years where spare time was almost unheard of.

Edited by Zhoyzu
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I was part of a daily speedrunning group chasing the records (which we had one for a bit). After a while the grind started to grate, stopped being fun, but the platinum from the arcanes was great since the prices for them were so ludicrous at the time.

If it wasn't for the plat I would never have bothered with them.

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1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

frustrating as hell having my entire time playing a game mode dictated by someone else (IF they even let me in their squad knowing I hadn't completed a raid yet

 

this line reminds me of the rants from railjack (the host ships specs and individual intrinsincs to be able to FA) and from new sister liches (stab or not to stab) and a lot of missions where your trying to do something but squad is trying to speed run to exit and complain when you take too long

raid was teamwork required with out something in this game promoting teamwork you get others not wanting your help and complain when they fail (burn through all their revives before you can reserect them and complain when they are out of revives and you dont get to them in time) frame abilitys being rendered pointless (nidus link can buff a frame power but not if the frame is trying to get as far away from you as possible) or new mod power drain 50% boost if you by some mirical manage to use your parazon before team AOE the enimy to oblivion

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1 hour ago, Zhoyzu said:

i was referring to destiny raids there specifically. As i previously mentioned i didnt bother with Warframes raids. 

They also only existed during my busiest college years where spare time was almost unheard of.

So you admit to not playing them but still feel you have the experience to call them rubbish regardless? Ok then.

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Trials were a neat idea, but I would not call them Raids. I admit my perception and idea is heavily skewed by Destiny, but the Trials we had were closer to Strikes then they were to Raids. The only similarity I remember there being were one or two "instant death" puzzles. 

Personally, I would not mind seeing Trials coming back but NOT in a Raid format. We are so far past that in terms of personal power and maturity of content that a mid-tier player now could probably solo nightmare LoR unless there was some mechanical puzzle that required more then one player to basically just be a Companion Cube and the puzzles themselves weren't exactly big-brain.
What I liked about Trials is that they were a self contained story. Much like Destiny's strikes or Dungeons from most MMO's, they are a middle-ground between doing an openworld bounty (which is what I see our baseline missions being) and a Story mission. Usually they are a short dungeon-like area from a Story mission, retrofitted into a replayable segment.

This opens up multiple different approaches and retrofits: 

I'm thinking that since we can replay quests now, how much work would it be for DE to take some of them and refit them into these missions? Modifying them to be a bit more challenging, removing the need to go return to our ships and craft some things and having the entire quest be a single mission that you could solo but meant for a full cell of players. Best outcome would be to have these Strikes or Trials or whatever you want to call them, be where you fight the planetary Boss. 
DE can do interesting and fun Boss fights. Basically every boss that has seen a rework in the past few years have mechanics involved that make them a little more complex then just a giant bullet-sponge. Ambulas, for one, is absolutely amazing mechancally, the new Jackal is also a joy. 
And then we have the Orb Bounty lines. They are basically Strikes, just split up and padded out a bit. Using those as templates or examples, making similar missions that incorporate all the bounty steps into a single mission that is on average doable in 15-20 minutes is also an option. 

Trials as Raids is something that I don't think DE can pull off. Not reliably or well. Most games that have Raids, have dedicated cryptographic sadists on staff whose purpose is to think up the puzzles and fights and they spend AGES building them. And after all that effort, at best only a small fraction of the community will play it more then once. I don't think it unreasonable for developers to find the resource costs for such content to not be worth their time. Especially if they are not confident that they can pull it off. 

And even IF DE ever decides to bring back Trials as Raids as I imagine them, then one big change that needs to happen to the rewards is that whatever you get from those Raids can't be traded to other players. I find this option to be the lesser of two evils concerning any possible power-creep gear is to make it so you can only earn the stuff by actively participating in the content and this also ensures that we don't regress back to the "good old days" of trade cartells for Arcanes. 

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A lot of people who never played the raids love to talk about them. Specifically the ones coming from other games and imagine raids as some kind of epic fights of 20+ warframes against an epic boss monster. In reality it was 8 people and the fights mostly involving puzzles which were poorly explained and bad mechanics overall.

I am happy that raids are dead since the development effort should go into other aspects.

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Raid as in many other mmo's were more for community players. Playing a public raid is always a wash But playing a well organized raid with a group of well coordinated friends can be an absolute blast! The problem came from the fact that since the loss of the dark sector skirmishing the game has had little to no reason for you to communicate or cooperate with your clan or alliance members on much. Leaving it up to the communities themselves to pick up the slack. The raids were the last vestige of something large scale for these communities to do with more than four members at a time, and because of that they are sorely missed. I myself used to be part of a big community until recently and I can tell you there was nothing more fun than teaching new members how to run the raids. It is those fond memories that make certain people keep nagging the devs to bring raids back.

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45 minutes ago, Prexades said:

A lot of people who never played the raids love to talk about them. Specifically the ones coming from other games and imagine raids as some kind of epic fights of 20+ warframes against an epic boss monster. In reality it was 8 people and the fights mostly involving puzzles which were poorly explained and bad mechanics overall.

I am happy that raids are dead since the development effort should go into other aspects.

But you didn't do many yourself. I don't think 5 Raids and never even doing JV counts as experienced. Ok you didn't like them but others did, sure they were puzzles rather than epic fights but they were fun with mates.

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5 hours ago, NecroPed said:

 other than the rewards

We at least had rewards. Now we don't have anything basically.

But also a feeling of exclusivity and end game. They were also nice. 8 man gameplay ? That was also pretty neat.

And  that was like 6 years ago. Imagine where DE could have taken the raids if they invested some of their resources into develoing the concept further. But I guess, it required alot of work and didn't make as much money. 

Edited by White_Matter
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