What did people like about raids?

[FrostDragoon]

14 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

While I appreciate your more measured rationale on the subject, you also didn't do the Raids so you only have second hand information and videos to base conclusions upon. I didn't get to do many JV Raids myself before they were removed but I enjoyed the ones that I did and had a lot of fun with LoR.

What in the world gives you the idea that I didn't do the raids? I did them plenty. You're out of turn here.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

What in the world gives you the idea that I didn't do the raids? I did them plenty. You're out of turn here.

Are you aware there's a website that tracks the Raids you did? 

[NecroPed]

9 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Are you aware there's a website that tracks the Raids you did? 

I'm not sure if it's the same one I saw but it didn't start tracking until well after trials were added. I can't even find a working link for it anymore either. Got a link by any chance?

[EmberStar]

I like that DE gave up on them and ripped them out of the game.  It makes me sad that they're going to waste dev time trying to bring back an activity that's normally deliberately designed to exclude all but the tiniest fraction of the playerbase.

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Are you aware there's a website that tracks the Raids you did? 

Are you aware that people can play on multiple platforms? This cyber-stalking nonsense just to launch fallacies is a stupid practice. You should really stop.

Edit:

Btw, I've also played on no fewer than 5 accounts. You're making a lot of bad assumptions based on extremely limited data.

[Syln]

Le 01/08/2021 à 07:49, NecroPed a dit :

I honestly hated raids and I've always wondered what people actually liked about them other than the rewards

I didn't hated it, but it was uninspired and boring tbh.

[Redthirst]

33 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I like that DE gave up on them and ripped them out of the game.  It makes me sad that they're going to waste dev time trying to bring back an activity that's normally deliberately designed to exclude all but the tiniest fraction of the playerbase.

I mean, the only people who are excluded are those who absolutely refuse to play with other people in a co-op, always-online game. It's fine to play solo, but why do you expect that every single activity should be designed to be soloable?

[SneakyErvin]

52 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

Because it was the only content in game's history that actually required you to rely on other people. There were communities built around raids and you actually had a compelling reason to play with others. Current Warframe is a solo game that you can opt to play alongside others. But even if you do, you never had to interact or rely on them. They are just there, doing their own thing. They can quit and you wouldn't even notice.

It doesn't, but having to work as a team does. Most normal Warframe missions have zero teamwork required. Railjack needs some, but you don't rely on your teammates. They just make the mission easier if they coordinate, but you can do it even if everyone is doing their own thing. And you are right - just bumping the squad size to 8 people wouldn't make a normal Warframe mission into a raid. But that's not what Trials were. They actually had mechanics that not only required cooperation, but required you to rely on your team. You needed your teammates to do their part, or else you wouldn't be able to complete the raid. There were no missions in Warframe that ever had that aspect, aside from Trials.

Can't agree more with you. The fact that people demand that every single piece of content be entirely soloable in a co-op game(or at least a game that claims to be co-op) is insane. Is it really so much to ask for co-op game to actually have content that requires you to coordinate with other people?

The Razorback encounter is more of a raid than the trials ever were. The mechanics of the trials, even if they promoted co-op are not raid mechanics. They are simply arbitrary mechanics to justify a cap increase of the group size. The Razorback encounter relies on actual mechanics though. Trial mechanics were nothing but gloryfied "buddy doors" for more buddies. Just because other missions didnt have the aspect that trials did doesnt mean those mechanics are justified as raid mechanics, since those mechanics could be applied to a 4 player group aswell just the same. I'm still looking for actual raid mechanics that were part of the trials. And I find nothing, neither structured like WoW raids, nor the open ended setup like Darkness Falls in DaoC or the world bosses of early GW2.

2 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I don't think it's asking too much from an online coop game to have content that is specifically designed and tailored for coordination and communication. I see absolutely nothing wrong with MMOs and coop games being solo friendly and having a bunch of solo content.  But Warframe and other games of the genre have become this dictatorship of the solo playstyle. Everything has to work and function so that a solo player can hop into a queue, join a game, ignore everyone else in the team, do his own thing, and do perfectly fine. Warframe is the epitome of this. All the complaints and horror stories about trials I see in this thread are from players that tried to do random queues or some random recruit chat squad and coordination and communication fell apart. I've played several MMOs where raids and other similar content got nerfed into the ground to require each time less coordination and communication, so that automatically generated solo queues ran smoothly without the need for communication. It is OKAY if a game has 95% of SOLOable content and just 5% of content that can only be completed by a synergized squad that is communicating and cooperating among themselves. Not everything has to be nerfed (or outright removed) for the benefit of the solo experience. And I'm someone who plays solo a lot in Warframe. 

Trials in Warframe didn't have amazing mechanics, and honestly I wasn't even a big fan of them, but I did enjoy the coordination and communication aspects of it. Puzzles and mechanics that involved multiple people doing different things in synchrony to succeed. Warframe can't have the spongy mega boss of other game's raids that require a DPS check of multiple people because WF has so much power creep that a solo player can already easily achieve the DPS cap by stacking enough buffs. So I highly doubt WF can ever have a decent raid. But I don't see the problem with more coop content. Grineer Railjack comes somewhat close to that, just on a much smaller scale. It's benefitial for players to coordinate and each one does a different task to finish the mission a lot faster, but you can still solo it, it just takes a lot longer. 

I agree, it isnt too much to ask. But when it is only designed with arbitrary mechanics it doesnt live up to what it is supposed to be. As I said, everything in the trials could just aswell be placed in forced 4 man content. There is no need for a raid to complete it, heck a full raid was optional for many. What was the minimum you actually needed? 3 or 4 players? What I'm saying here is that raids failed and do fail in these types of games because they dont have the foundation to produce proper and worthwhile raids that live up to the name. They all end up with arbitrary mechanics that do not engage the group in a worthwhile way throughout the encounter, nor allow players to benefit from their actual progression. We've seen this type of failure in design also transition to solo and small group content like Exploiter and Nihil, though that is another subject for another time and place. 

If WF could actually produce and support proper raids I'd be all over them. But if the idea of "raids" is slapping on a puzzle to up the group size requirement then I can live without it, since such crap can just aswell be added to a 4 player setting, and even there such mechanics are nothing but boring in the end and doesnt really push your progressed limits. DE's co-op development should likely stick to things like those you mention, Grineer Railjack, where co-op and coordination simply speeds things up and makes it more efficient and rewarding. Since that content allows you to use your progressed loadout and it promotes coordinated play without arbitrary mechanics. Just as Profit Taker promotes coordination and group play since it is faster due to the mechanics of the fight. You cover more damage types easier, you cover more ground when the shield pods are up, you handle adds better, keep alert levels in check more easily, kill the boss quicker and so on. And the same goes for content like Razorback which I mentioned earlier. 

And another reason why DE should avoid raids as a whole is because it relies on P2P, which can already be bad for 3 clients. And since the encounters can already be done with a single group, there is little reason to actually have "raid" sized groups.

[Redthirst]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The Razorback encounter is more of a raid than the trials ever were. The mechanics of the trials, even if they promoted co-op are not raid mechanics. They are simply arbitrary mechanics to justify a cap increase of the group size. The Razorback encounter relies on actual mechanics though. Trial mechanics were nothing but gloryfied "buddy doors" for more buddies. Just because other missions didnt have the aspect that trials did doesnt mean those mechanics are justified as raid mechanics, since those mechanics could be applied to a 4 player group aswell just the same. I'm still looking for actual raid mechanics that were part of the trials. And I find nothing, neither structured like WoW raids, nor the open ended setup like Darkness Falls in DaoC or the world bosses of early GW2.

To me, raids have to require coordination. If the content can be soloed by design, then it's not a raid. Stuff like JV actually required you to coordinate, even if it was something as simple as having people stand on two pads to keep the door open, or one person exposing the nerve so that another can shoot it. I'm not saying those were good raids, but they were raids. And because Warframe's combat balance is such a joke, having cooperative puzzles is the only way they can make actual raid content.

Razorback can be done solo, hence it's not a raid.

I'm also not saying that raids have to have 8 players, that doesn't really matter. I'd be fine if they came up with 4-man raids, as long as I actually have to work with those 3 other players and can't just solo it.

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

To me, raids have to require coordination. If the content can be soloed by design, then it's not a raid. Stuff like JV actually required you to coordinate, even if it was something as simple as having people stand on two pads to keep the door open, or one person exposing the nerve so that another can shoot it. I'm not saying those were good raids, but they were raids. And because Warframe's combat balance is such a joke, having cooperative puzzles is the only way they can make actual raid content.

Razorback can be done solo, hence it's not a raid.

I'm also not saying that raids have to have 8 players, that doesn't really matter. I'd be fine if they came up with 4-man raids, as long as I actually have to work with those 3 other players and can't just solo it.

But those puzzles didnt require the size of a raid, so they are as little of a raid as Razorback is. I only said Razorback is more of a raid than the raids, not that it was a raid or that the co-op appeal couldnt be circumvented. And in WF, content that is intended for less than 8 players isnt a raid, since the concept of raid relies partly on the number of active groups you bring. 4 man coordinated content would simply be 4 man coordinated content, or as most other games refer to it, dungeons, because you'd only bring a single group of players to it.

And there are plenty of things DE can do to make raids without adding puzzles. Like implementing FFXIV raid ideas, where you have each group head in different direction at the start in order to complete different tasks and then converge at a later state to take down a specific boss that requires people to focus on different things. Or like Marvel Heroes did it, dual bosses where you need to switch which one you fight over time since each one stacks a seperate debuff, or like the sisters where each of the 3 is vulnerable/immune to different pre-set damage types. They also had the monolith fight where you had to rescue and protect npcs from adds in order to make the main target weaker to damage, you also had to hunt drops from a certain mob so you could bring down the defenses to hurt the main target. Then there was Surtur, with massive telegraphed moves you had to hide from and during the fight he'd spawn portals that sucked in parts of the raid that had to then fight their way out from areas that housed some of the previous bosses.

There is alot DE can come up with and if their main issue is balance, then simply cap our damage output even harsher than elsewhere while giving the encounters heals and so on to sustain their life further. Add new mechanics, such as interupts tied to our skills and interupt immunities to bosses so we just cant spam skills and hope it sticks. Require us to play smart.

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, Redthirst said:

Can't agree more with you. The fact that people demand that every single piece of content be entirely soloable in a co-op game(or at least a game that claims to be co-op) is insane. Is it really so much to ask for co-op game to actually have content that requires you to coordinate with other people?

Cannot disagree more.

Just because the game can be played with more than one person does not mean it must be played with more than one person.

Is it really too much to ask that Extroverts don't force others to do things that make them uncomfortable enough to stop playing a game?

Co-op is not a requirement of this game, period.

[Redthirst]

16 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Cannot disagree more.

Just because the game can be played with more than one person does not mean it must be played with more than one person.

Is it really too much to ask that Extroverts don't force others to do things that make them uncomfortable enough to stop playing a game?

Co-op is not a requirement of this game, period.

We're talking about a small portion of the game, not the entire game. You don't have to be extroverted to do co-op content, you just have to be willing to talk to people occassionally. Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're incapable of talking to other people to do one activity out of the dozens that the game has.

Is it really too much to ask to have some actual cooperative content in a co-op game? There are already a ton of single player games, why must online games also be basically single player?

And it's not really a question of choice. If every bit of content is designed to be soloable, then all it has is solo content. You don't coordinate in solo content, you either play it solo, or play it with some other people minding their own business. There's zero interaction and zero teamwork required.

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But those puzzles didnt require the size of a raid, so they are as little of a raid as Razorback is. I only said Razorback is more of a raid than the raids, not that it was a raid or that the co-op appeal couldnt be circumvented. And in WF, content that is intended for less than 8 players isnt a raid, since the concept of raid relies partly on the number of active groups you bring. 4 man coordinated content would simply be 4 man coordinated content, or as most other games refer to it, dungeons, because you'd only bring a single group of players to it.

And there are plenty of things DE can do to make raids without adding puzzles. Like implementing FFXIV raid ideas, where you have each group head in different direction at the start in order to complete different tasks and then converge at a later state to take down a specific boss that requires people to focus on different things. Or like Marvel Heroes did it, dual bosses where you need to switch which one you fight over time since each one stacks a seperate debuff, or like the sisters where each of the 3 is vulnerable/immune to different pre-set damage types. They also had the monolith fight where you had to rescue and protect npcs from adds in order to make the main target weaker to damage, you also had to hunt drops from a certain mob so you could bring down the defenses to hurt the main target. Then there was Surtur, with massive telegraphed moves you had to hide from and during the fight he'd spawn portals that sucked in parts of the raid that had to then fight their way out from areas that housed some of the previous bosses.

There is alot DE can come up with and if their main issue is balance, then simply cap our damage output even harsher than elsewhere while giving the encounters heals and so on to sustain their life further. Add new mechanics, such as interupts tied to our skills and interupt immunities to bosses so we just cant spam skills and hope it sticks. Require us to play smart.

As I've said, I don't really care if it's for 4 or 8 people, I just want content that requires coordination, in any form. Splitting your team into multiple sections(especially if teams also have to pass along critical info between them) sounds absolutely amazing.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

They were definitely removed for a reason.  They were janky and unfun imo.  It's also just not the right angle for the game.  I hate to point to a competitor, but there's a certain FPS shooter that does Raids better than almost, if not, any other franchise.  And that game is routinely compared directly to Warframe (Despite major differences).  It almost seems silly and fruitless to develop raid style content in the face of that.  All DE faced before was complaints about how a certain game had better Raid mechanics, and it was true. 

DE is pretty much incapable of producing the kind of content that Raids should be, the diversity of the game works against it.  There are too many variables in Warframe.  Too many frames. guns, mods and mechanics to make actual mechanic/coordination based content without it somehow being broken or otherwise trivialized. 

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

As I've said, I don't really care if it's for 4 or 8 people, I just want content that requires coordination, in any form. Splitting your team into multiple sections(especially if teams also have to pass along critical info between them) sounds absolutely amazing.

The main problem with WF and "forced" grouping still ends up on it being P2P connection based. Which just leads to frustration in situations where you must have a group. Which makes me 100% against 8 player content, which makes me 100% against raids in the game. Heck I've gone pretty much full solo for the last year and a half due to being fed up with poor hosts.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Redthirst said:

We're talking about a small portion of the game, not the entire game. You don't have to extroverted to do co-op content, you just have to be willing to talk to people occassionally. Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're incapable of talking to other people to one activity out of the dozens that the game has.

Is it really too much to ask to have some actual cooperative content in a co-op game? There are already a ton of single player games, why must online games also be entirely single player?

And it's not really a question of choice. If every bit of content is designed to be soloable, then all it has is solo content. You don't coordinate in solo content, you either play it solo, or play it with some other people minding their own business. There's zero interaction and zero teamwork required.

You don't get to decide what is or is not an emotional burden for another human, period.

It's just that simple.

If DE chooses to put in content that forces people to group to clear it, that's their choice, which is fine. I won't ever play it unless some RL friends pick up the game, I find it a waste of my time to PuG in any game of this nature, it's much more trouble than the provided ROI. I simply have no desire to interact with the gaming masses and I know plenty of others with a myriad of reasons are in the same situation.

I prefer games that do what WF does now, it allows me as a solo player to gain enough power I have no need of help from other players.

None the less, you cannot just tell someone to get over their social anxiety because you think they 'should' so you can have more players in a raid.

Is it too much to ask to get a game maker to add more multiplayer content? Not in my mind.

Is it too much to ask to tell players not interested in multiplayer to 'suck it up'? Definitely.

There are already many multiplayer forced games, why does WF have to change in that way?

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

There are already many multiplayer forced games, why does WF have to change in that way?

Adding some forced multiplayer content wouldnt be the end of the world though, since it would be no different than single player content that forces us into an activity we dont like that we end up avoiding. Not every single player in the community can be catered to with every single content release. Given that I still would find raids to be a complete waste, but not because they force multiplayer, but because the game will not be able to support it properly or design it in a worthwhile manner.

It isnt like the raids will force you to do them, so claiming they'll cause emotional stress or anxiety is straight up silly. No one is holding a gun to your head or kidnapping your toon and brings it to their raid. Just dont do the content like you would with other content you dont like. And I say this as someone who has lived with social anxiety myself, and still does to an extent. Heck, raiding has actually helped me get over much of that anxiety.

[--END--Rikutatis]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

What I'm saying here is that raids failed and do fail in these types of games because they dont have the foundation to produce proper and worthwhile raids that live up to the name. They all end up with arbitrary mechanics that do not engage the group in a worthwhile way throughout the encounter, nor allow players to benefit from their actual progression. 

 

8 minutes ago, (PSN)N7_Dredgen said:

DE is pretty much incapable of producing the kind of content that Raids should be, the diversity of the game works against it.  There are too many variables in Warframe.  Too many frames. guns, mods and mechanics to make actual mechanic/coordination based content without it somehow being broken or otherwise trivialized. 

I mean, I honestly agree with you guys on these points. I even said in my previous post I don't think WF can ever have decent raids, because the combat mechanics and balance are waaaay too broken and out of control. Just the other day I watched a video/stream of a guy killing level 9,999 demolysts with starter weapons (mk1-braton, etc) in just a few seconds. DE made Sisters with ridiculous amounts of damage reduction stacked on top of damage reduction stacked on top of even more damage reduction and people still one shot them. Sure, people without the builds do 3 damage per shot and get frustrated, but ppl with the math/wiki knowledge have multiple ways to effortlessly one shot them. I still think eidolons were the best boss DE ever designed, and I still kinda love them (aside from the host-client lag horrible issues), but they're also trivialized af, and keep getting more and more trivialized as DE releases more power creep. The only "challenge" of eidolons is speedrunning multiples of them in one night cycle to see how many you can kill. 

I honestly think more coop puzzles are perfectly fine and I don't see nothing wrong with them (like old trials had), but even those could be more or less trivialized with using operators to be in two places at once or do two things at once lol. At the end of the day whatever DE tries to do with their raids, players will find some crazy synergy of powers, abilities, stacking multipliers or whatever to just trivialize them and we're back to speedrunning being the only challenge again. 

[Redthirst]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The main problem with WF and "forced" grouping still ends up on it being P2P connection based. Which just leads to frustration in situations where you must have a group. Which makes me 100% against 8 player content, which makes me 100% against raids in the game. Heck I've gone pretty much full solo for the last year and a half due to being fed up with poor hosts.

While that is true, Destiny 2 is also P2P, and raids generally work fine there.

 

19 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

You don't get to decide what is or is not an emotional burden for another human, period.

It's just that simple.

If DE chooses to put in content that forces people to group to clear it, that's their choice, which is fine. I won't ever play it unless some RL friends pick up the game, I find it a waste of my time to PuG in any game of this nature, it's much more trouble than the provided ROI. I simply have no desire to interact with the gaming masses and I know plenty of others with a myriad of reasons are in the same situation.

I prefer games that do what WF does now, it allows me as a solo player to gain enough power I have no need of help from other players.

None the less, you cannot just tell someone to get over their social anxiety because you think they 'should' so you can have more players in a raid.

Is it too much to ask to get a game maker to add more multiplayer content? Not in my mind.

Is it too much to ask to tell players not interested in multiplayer to 'suck it up'? Definitely.

There are already many multiplayer forced games, why does WF have to change in that way?

"Gaming masses", wow, what a phrase.

If someone has a social anxiety so crippling that they can't interact with others(or they are so arrogant that they don't think all those other people playing the same game as they are worth interacting with) then maybe they shouldn't play an online game? Or not play whatever slice of content isn't available for solo play. Even the most multiplayer-friendly games usually reserve only a tiny percentage of content to be forced multiplayer.

There are actually very few games that are exclusively co-op. Even most MMOs have a ton of content for solo players(and automatic matchmaking with little teamwork required for other content). They are absolutely dwarfed by the number of exclusively single-player games.

So seeing how many single-player games we have, why shouldn't WF have some actual multiplayer content?

WF even has forced single-player content. Why is that fine, but having some forced multiplayer content suddenly bad?

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Redthirst said:

While that is true, Destiny 2 is also P2P, and raids generally work fine there.

Doesnt Destiny 2 actually use a hybrid system though that removes many of the problems we experience here?

[Redthirst]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Doesnt Destiny 2 actually use a hybrid system though that removes many of the problems we experience here?

To be honest, I'm not sure what their networking is exactly. It has always been desribed as P2P, but they still have world and activity servers that facilitate connections between players. And they also don't have host migration, so it does seem like their system is more robust. Still, it's not server-authoritative, which becomes abundantly clear if you ever try PvP in that game. It's very common to trade kills with someone, which is a hallmark of P2P PvP games.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

To be honest, I'm not sure what their networking is exactly. It has always been desribed as P2P, but they still have world and activity servers that facilitate connections between players. And they also don't have host migration, so it does seem like their system is more robust. Still, it's not server-authoritative, which becomes abundantly clear if you ever try PvP in that game. It's very common to trade kills with someone, which is a hallmark of P2P PvP games.

Yeah iirc, the game uses servers for everything but player actions are client authoritive and it acts like a P2P system in some way. It seems really wonky but it also works. Here we are sadly stuck with with a cup glued to a stick with poop connected to another such setup with a used shoestring.

[Zimzala]

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt like the raids will force you to do them, so claiming they'll cause emotional stress or anxiety is straight up silly. No one is holding a gun to your head or kidnapping your toon and brings it to their raid. Just dont do the content like you would with other content you dont like. And I say this as someone who has lived with social anxiety myself, and still does to an extent. Heck, raiding has actually helped me get over much of that anxiety.

The act of raiding causes emotional distress for some people, period. Just because something helped your anxiety does not mean you get to imply it will help others, you don't know.

Sure, no one would force me to partake, no worries, I don't play the parts now I don't enjoy, it's just a matter of choice IMO.

I have never claimed otherwise, that would be silly.

However, just as players want to add co-op, they also, typically, want to add rewards to that as well. That's the rub with the players, by forcing co-op for rewards, you cannot get those rewards otherwise, unless plat is perhaps used, which would be fine by me, but not others. this will cause issues.

If rewards can be earned co-op and solo, that becomes more equitable for more players.

39 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

"Gaming masses", wow, what a phrase.

If someone has a social anxiety so crippling that they can't interact with others(or they are so arrogant that they don't think all those other people playing the same game as they are worth interacting with) then maybe they shouldn't play an online game? Or not play whatever slice of content isn't available for solo play. Even the most multiplayer-friendly games usually reserve only a tiny percentage of content to be forced multiplayer.

There are actually very few games that are exclusively co-op. Even most MMOs have a ton of content for solo players(and automatic matchmaking with little teamwork required for other content). They are absolutely dwarfed by the number of exclusively single-player games.

So seeing how many single-player games we have, why shouldn't WF have some actual multiplayer content?

WF even has forced single-player content. Why is that fine, but having some forced multiplayer content suddenly bad?

I am not making any judgement calls on Bad or Good, that is ALL subjective.

If WF wants to make forced multiplayer content, more power to them, even if many of us will simply never play it.

As I stated above, the rewards are the rub. DE will have to make hard choices in the case of forced multiplayer as to if the rewards can also be acquired in a solo fashion, or we all know there will be an uproar.

I don't care either way, beyond DE doing what is healthy for Warframe.

This remains a no-win situation for DE because those 'gaming masses' are never happy, never satisfied, never fulfilled, and yes in my (arrogant) outlook not worth playing games with since at scale, it's just a bunch of adults screaming like elementary school children for the impossible.

The question was, "What did people like about raids" and IMO the answer continues to be "because it forces people to play together".

If that's the reason people want raids, then they can play together already...they are simply not forced to co-operate.

If you want content that forces players to co-operate, that's cool, but I don't think the target market DE is hitting with WF will be big on it.

You can argue that it will bring people into the game, which could happen, but if there is no progression raiding, with WoW levels development, then those players will get bored after beating teh raid and move along as raid content locusts always do.

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it, these things have not changed in this genre in teh 20+ years I have been in it because Human Nature.

[traybong111]

1 hour ago, Zimzala said:

Cannot disagree more.

Just because the game can be played with more than one person does not mean it must be played with more than one person.

Is it really too much to ask that Extroverts don't force others to do things that make them uncomfortable enough to stop playing a game?

Co-op is not a requirement of this game, period.

From one clinical anxiety-stricken introvert to another, I'm begging you, "I don't have friends so games shouldn't have co-op activities" is not a good argument. 

The big bad extroverts are not forcing you to do jack here. Warframe community is made up of many smaller, niche-r communities and asking for places for them to return is not forcing you to do anything. Getting self-absorbed but in a negative spiral is a dark place in the ADHD anxiety depression combo I know well and I genuinely hope you can soon get the help you need. 

[Redthirst]

22 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I am not making any judgement calls on Bad or Good, that is ALL subjective.

If WF wants to make forced multiplayer content, more power to them, even if many of us will simply never play it.

As I stated above, the rewards are the rub. DE will have to make hard choices in the case of forced multiplayer as to if the rewards can also be acquired in a solo fashion, or we all know there will be an uproar.

I don't care either way, beyond DE doing what is healthy for Warframe.

This remains a no-win situation for DE because those 'gaming masses' are never happy, never satisfied, never fulfilled, and yes in my (arrogant) outlook not worth playing games with since at scale, it's just a bunch of adults screaming like elementary school children for the impossible.

The question was, "What did people like about raids" and IMO the answer continues to be "because it forces people to play together".

If that's the reason people want raids, then they can play together already...they are simply not forced to co-operate.

If you want content that forces players to co-operate, that's cool, but I don't think the target market DE is hitting with WF will be big on it.

You can argue that it will bring people into the game, which could happen, but if there is no progression raiding, with WoW levels development, then those players will get bored after beating teh raid and move along as raid content locusts always do.

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it, these things have not changed in this genre in teh 20+ years I have been in it because Human Nature.

The rewards aren't really an issue. Just put things behind a massive grind wall for solo players, but make them free accessible from group content.

[Zimzala]

26 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

The rewards aren't really an issue. Just put things behind a massive grind wall for solo players, but make them free accessible from group content.

IF they are put behind a grind wall, then they available, but how many co-op oriented players will then yell that solo players 'should not' get those things because they will not 'co-op'? Don't think these things don't happen, they happen all teh time.

There is no magic button that will make ALL of the divers groups of player outlooks ALL happy.

41 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

From one clinical anxiety-stricken introvert to another, I'm begging you, "I don't have friends so games shouldn't have co-op activities" is not a good argument. 

Show me where I typed anything like that. Never, not once, have I typed that.

I am saying that forcing people not interested in co-op will not end well, which is very different.

I am not really an introvert, I am just at a point in my life I have no desire to deal with people I don't know, I already have enough drama in my life. 

I could not care less if WF added multiplayer content that had rewards that can only be gained there...I already just don't play parts of the game I have no desire to play, like Eidolon hunting, and I accepted I just won't get those rewards. It's just virtual items and I already can kill teh pixels I want to kill, so I miss nothing.

As it stands, DE has focused on the idea of Solo players that can Co-Op if they choose.

Do they stick with that model or not?

None of us here can definitively state that adding forced co-op of any kind will be a Good thing or a Bad thing for WF, for the game and the bottom line, not just their own outlook, unless someone is holding a crystal ball they are not sharing.

Processing the data at hand, the reason people want raids is because some people like to play games with forced co-operation.

If that is something DE can add to WF and it works for DE and WF, great.

My personal opinion on if I would play that content or not is moot, all that matters is what works for the game.