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Random shops are very frustrating


(XBOX)KayAitch
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Two major new features are locked behind random store fronts:

- Rank 10 Command Intrinsic lets you hire elite crew members, but they have random abilities and I haven't seen one worth the price yet.

- Tenet melee weapons have a random buff you can increase/change with valence transfer, but you need a high roll (54.6% or higher really) if you don't want to have to re-buy them over an over.

In both cases these are painfully expensive - elite crew members cost 1-4 million credits and lots of railjack-only resources, and tenet melee cost 40 Holokeys (which are crushingly slow to acquire in void storms, with the charming attribute that they only drop at the end of ⅓ of missions, making most missions a boring waste of time).

Due to the time investment in getting these resources these shops are frustrating and tedious in equal measure. 

I want to buy things in these shops, but the gameplay loop here is: grind for hours, visit shop, find it's garbage rolls (ohh 4 million for a gunnery 0 'elite' crewmember with increased damage for the weakest gun type, what a deal, or I could have a Tenet Livia with 25% Impact, still my beating heart), wait for days for the next roll.

This is not fun. It is not engaging.

Command 10 Intrinsic is absolutely useless because of it (even the best possible elite crewmember - friendly syndicate, gunnery 5, Zatki dmg bonus - just isn't worth the tedium of checking this shop).

These shops need either:

- pay more (linear predictive grind) for known stats, eg 20 Holokeys gets you a 25% bonus, but 60 Holokeys gets you a 60% bonus. Make this player choice and something to grind for with an achievable goal (rather than essentially a slow lootbox).

- speed everything up, new crewmembers and tenet melee weapons every hour. It's still annoyingly RNG but fast enough that you have lots of chances so a shop full of sh1t doesn't feel like trolling.

- predictable cycles like Teshin's - it's different each week but you know what you want will cycle in (this is my least favourite option, but would still be an improvement).

 

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46 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

- pay more (linear predictive grind) for known stats, eg 20 Holokeys gets you a 25% bonus, but 60 Holokeys gets you a 60% bonus. Make this player choice and something to grind for with an achievable goal (rather than essentially a slow lootbox).

This ^^

I would buy some weapons if they were cheap just to test them. With 40 holos and not guaranted even 1 holo per run I will just buy 1 maybe 2.

ps. Orphix' shop from the event were nice. Even with rent-a-mech I could grind a lot, not random stuffs. Random stuffs were just from missions.

Edited by quxier
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47 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

- pay more (linear predictive grind) for known stats, eg 20 Holokeys gets you a 25% bonus, but 60 Holokeys gets you a 60% bonus. Make this player choice and something to grind for with an achievable goal (rather than essentially a slow lootbox)

 

 

Sold. Absolutely sold on this idea. It boils down to "you put in the time, you get the bonus you seek" but also serves the "you did the bare minimum take your MR points" crowd

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17 minutes ago, quxier said:

ps. Orphix' shop from the event were nice. Even with rent-a-mech I could grind a lot, not random stuffs. Random stuffs were just from missions

That could work for the Tenet weapons - make them all rare drops form the void storms pool and the Holokeys become the catch-up/backup acquisition method.

The Orphix shop is the best event shop DE have ever done, just for that option to buy if you weren't lucky.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

- pay more (linear predictive grind) for known stats, eg 20 Holokeys gets you a 25% bonus, but 60 Holokeys gets you a 60% bonus. Make this player choice and something to grind for with an achievable goal (rather than essentially a slow lootbox).

Logged in just to quote for truth and to upvote. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

- Rank 10 Command Intrinsic lets you hire elite crew members, but they have random abilities and I haven't seen one worth the price yet.

I only have issues with the costs when they involve a Railjack resource that drops very little of in each mission, as for the Randomness and abilities, i keep looking up Ticker every day to see what he brings tho i have preference for three specific factions when building my crew and having them come with the attributes i want for their roles along with the proper perks is pretty frustrating, took me a wile but i managed to get one with +50% Damage to Zetki Turrets and another with +150% Crit Chance with Secondaries.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

- Tenet melee weapons have a random buff you can increase/change with valence transfer, but you need a high roll (54.6% or higher really) if you don't want to have to re-buy them over an over.

I think the Tenet Melee should just come with +60% bonus for the price they have and the rarity of Holokeys. DE states its 37% chance to earn them from missions but its not, did 6 missions in a row the other day with friends, only dropped once i the very first attempt.

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16 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

with +50% Damage to Zetki Turrets

That's the only elite anyone wants, as they suck at anything other than gunnery.

Maybe an engineer would be useful, but only once you have 2 gunners.

16 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

+150% Crit Chance with Secondaries

Liches are better at defence, and that's the only thing they can do, so I haven't really found a need for defence crew yet.

Even then, you want 2 gunners and an engineer, then defend and pilot yourself.

16 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I think the Tenet Melee should just come with +60% bonus for the price they have and the rarity of Holokeys

Yeah, but they won't do that.

It generally takes 5-10 transfers to max a Kuva/Tenet gun, maybe an average of 6-7 Liches/Sisters at 1-2 hours each, let's say 10 hours per maxed weapon.

Tenet melees seem to have the same low skew as guns - lots of < 30%, very few > 50%, so if you just bought one each week you'd be looking at 6-7 of each, say 250 Holokeys per maxed weapon.

With an optimised squad and the sad fact that ⅔ void storms give nothing the average is about 5mins per holokey.

So maxing out a tenet melee is average 21 hours. Much more tedious and less varied hours than the guns (no boss fights, just the same mission over and over as fast as you can).

I think they would match Tenet guns for acquisition rate if they made 60% bonus cost 120 Holokeys, but I don't think they should due to the extreme lack of variety in void storms. I think 60-80 would be fair.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Liches are better at defence, and that's the only thing they can do, so I haven't really found a need for defence crew yet.

Not true, they only have more health than Crew but Crewmates can do far more damage due to the weapons you place on them plus the Combat skill.

My Defender crewmate has 5333 Health and over 3K shield, its equipped with the Normal Corinth with a Riven due to disposition and it not using Alt-Fire which makes it deal more damage than the prime with primary shots. It also is my On-Call crewmate and it one shots Steel Path Ambulas from the front.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Yeah, but they won't do that.

It generally takes 5-10 transfers to max a Kuva/Tenet gun, maybe an average of 6-7 Liches/Sisters at 1-2 hours each, let's say 10 hours per maxed weapon.

Tenet melees seem to have the same low skew as guns - lots of < 30%, very few > 50%, so if you just bought one each week you'd be looking at 6-7 of each, say 250 Holokeys per maxed weapon.

With an optimised squad and the sad fact that ⅔ void storms give nothing the average is about 5mins per holokey.

So maxing out a tenet melee is average 21 hours. Much more tedious and less varied hours than the guns (no boss fights, just the same mission over and over as fast as you can).

I think they would match Tenet guns for acquisition rate if they made 60% bonus cost 120 Holokeys, but I don't think they should due to the extreme lack of variety in void storms. I think 60-80 would be fair.

You are doing something very very wrong here!

When you buy a Tenet Melee weapon, you can see the damage profile of that weapon - and hence you know the bonus you are getting. So while I can see getting the first one (of each of the weapons) with whatever percentage you see that week (to get the mastery faster), getting low-percentage ones after that is plain silly! Just save your holokeys and wait until the shop refreshes!

If you are a tiny bit patient, you should be able to max the tenet melees in 3 purchases per weapon: 1 to get it initially, 1 to get the right element and 1 when you see a 50+% roll available. Maybe 4 if you are impatient and unlucky with the high roll. But nowhere near 6-7.

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3 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

 

 

3 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Just save your holokeys and wait until the shop refreshes!

If you are a tiny bit patient, you should be able to max the tenet melees in 3 purchases per weapon

Read my post, that's exactly what I'm complaining about. "Tiny bit patient"? The shop takes days to restock, waiting for the right roll takes weeks. That's pretty f**king patient. 

And it's boring. Boring is bad in a game that's supposed to be fun. Don't lock stuff behind boredom, it burns players out.

You can do it in 2 so long as the weapon has at least 54.6% status. Unfortunately most restocks are <30% and many will be the wrong status.

If you want to max these weapons fast in real time then you're buying loads and grinding many hours of identical void storm missions. If you want to max these weapons with the minimum of void storm missions then you're not playing Warframe, you're waiting for a lootbox restock.

Neither of these is good for the game.

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6 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Not true, they only have more health than Crew but Crewmates can do far more damage due to the weapons you place on them plus the Combat skill

Fair enough. No steel path in Railjack mind, and no boarding parties I can't wipe in a fraction of the time (as you say, they can't use alt and the no-reload bug that made them godly with the Exergis is gone) they can.

Meanwhile if you want to speed run missions you need gunners, then maybe an engineer. With 2x gunnery-5 crew you won't be borded often anyway.

6 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

It also is my On-Call crewmate and it one shots Steel Path Ambulas from the front

That's a use I haven't really tried - isn't it just a glorified spectre? Why would they be better than, say, a Wisp spectre (which will leave random buff motes all over the place).

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11 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

 

Read my post, that's exactly what I'm complaining about. "Tiny bit patient"? The shop takes days to restock, waiting for the right roll takes weeks. That's pretty f**king patient. 

And it's boring. Boring is bad in a game that's supposed to be fun. Don't lock stuff behind boredom, it burns players out.

You can do it in 2 so long as the weapon has at least 54.6% status. Unfortunately most restocks are <30% and many will be the wrong status.

If you want to max these weapons fast in real time then you're buying loads and grinding many hours of identical void storm missions. If you want to max these weapons with the minimum of void storm missions then you're not playing Warframe, you're waiting for a lootbox restock.

Neither of these is good for the game.

Have you done everything there is to do in Warframe? Is getting the Tenet Melees literally the last things left for you to do in the entire game? If so - then it's a good thing you have some holokeys to farm while you're waiting for the update! If not - do those things while waiting for the shop rotation to change!

Rotation-based shops are only an issue if you have the "I must have this NOW" attitude. But that's a rather unhealthy attitude that leads to an overall bad experience (and not only because of the shops). A better approach is to farm multiple things at the same time - and if you do that you'll find this shop rotation not to be that much of a problem.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Have you done everything there is to do in Warframe? Is getting the Tenet Melees literally the last things left for you to do in the entire game?

Pretty much. I'm legendary 1, over 1000 logins.

The Tenet melee is not quite the last thing. There are a couple of other odds and ends, but really I'm here for the new stuff. I have all the 

But let's look at everyone else interested in these shops: Command Intrinsic 10 is the second worst (after Gunnery 10 which adds heat build up) - the only players that have it have at least 3 other Intrinsics maxed. Holokeys are also from grinding Railjack, which is pretty high level content - while DE have made getting them easier we're still talking post star chart.

I'd guess most players in a position to grind for these are MR20+. I think forcing these weapons to slowly drip in might make sense if they were available from MR5 or something, but this late? No.

1 hour ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

if you have the "I must have this NOW" attitude

I mean, I'd rinsed everything after the last content drop, I'm coming back to play new stuff. I'm here for the new stuff. 

Then the new stuff comes and some of it's great, some of it's meh, all of which is fine.

But some of it is locked behind, not gameplay, not something I can do with my clan, but more waiting. 

Locking new things behind waiting is boring. It's content I might get if I keep playing, not content I can play for.

Like many long time players, I want stuff to do, not stuff to wait for.

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55 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Pretty much. I'm legendary 1, over 1000 logins

Congrats. I'm L1 too. So what?

All this really means is that you should have been able to look at the update overall and plan how to efficiently farm the relevant things. I did - and that's why I have 3 of the melees above 50% (and the other one above 46%), having only bought one of each. Since you're L1, you too should have been able to look at everything in the update and prioritise things accordingly. And you too should have been able to farm the first 40 holokeys before the first rotation after the update ended. (not sure if the rotations are global, but at least for me the first one after the update had the 57% Grigori).

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

But let's look at everyone else interested in these shops: Command Intrinsic 10 is the second worst (after Gunnery 10 which adds heat build up) - the only players that have it have at least 3 other Intrinsics maxed. Holokeys are also from grinding Railjack, which is pretty high level content - while DE have made getting them easier we're still talking post star chart.

Really not sure what it was you were trying to say here. Except that you really need to actually play with gunnery-10 before you complain about it. G-10 does have a big issue, but it's the cursor lock (esp. for controllers), not the heat buildup. Heat buildup stops being a factor once you reach Gunnery-9, that allows you to flush it (although you might need to look into your controller mapping - the default one for RJ on Switch did not include the reload button).

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I mean, I'd rinsed everything after the last content drop, I'm coming back to play new stuff. I'm here for the new stuff. 

And what does DE gain from you "coming back for the new stuff" and then leaving after a week? DE's business model relies on players coming back consistently. For DE (and the Warframe community) to benefit from a returning player, said player needs to be coming back regularly, week after week (if not day after day). And for players like that a shop with a 4-day rotation is really not an issue (they just check it whenever they sign in).

What you seem to want to do is to come back after a content update, play for a week or two and then go dormant for another 4-6 months. Who benefits from it? Not your clan (if you're inactive most of the time, you're just taking up space). Not the wider Warframe community (matchmaking is busy enough as it is immediately after the content drop, and you're not there once the wave has died down). Probably not DE (the less time you spend in-game, the less likely you are to spend money on the game).

So these shops encourage players to come back again and again, day after day and week after week. If for nothing else, then just to check those shops' inventories. And while this might be annoying for you, it is healthier for the community in general.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Locking new things behind waiting is boring. It's content I might get if I keep playing, not content I can play for.

That's the whole point! Higher-level players can do pretty much any farm fairly quickly and fairly efficiently. So giving us content we can grind for does not keep us in the game for all that long. And the community needs us to keep playing - forming public squads, helping newbies, etc. Which is precisely why DE needs to encourage people to keep playing, not to just quickly do a specific farm and sign off.

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7 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:
9 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Pretty much. I'm legendary 1, over 1000 logins

Congrats. I'm L1 too. So what?

So nothing. You asked whether I already had all the other things. L1 means I have all the other things, and absolutely nothing else. 

9 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Since you're L1, you too should have been able to look at everything in the update and prioritise things accordingly

Yup, although anyone can do that. I looked at the update, thought the grind on this is rediculous, posted here.

I'm not alone in pointing out that this doesn't work: 

 

9 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

G-10 does have a big issue, but it's the cursor lock (esp. for controllers), not the heat buildup. Heat buildup stops being a factor once you reach Gunnery-9,

Heat build up is less of a problem, but I still don't want heat build up faster. G10 is objectively a downgrade from G9 (you gain buggy auto targeting and lose effective magazine size).

But if you're enjoying it go you. My point was really that none the players waiting for good elite crewmembers to maybe show up one day are newbies. Nobody maxes Command first.

9 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Which is precisely why DE needs to encourage people to keep playing

I mean, we agree?

Then why are you Stan for a shop where the solution is to sign out and try again in 4 days?

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41 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I'm not alone in pointing out that this doesn't work: 

I was waiting for someone to go for the "a steamer said so - so it must be true!" argument!

If you actually think about it, the argument in the video is mainly relevant for those who play warframe as a job, not as a game. For Brozime, the end goal is to make a video about the weapons, demonstrating their builds - since that's what gets him paid. So he'd need to invest the time (farm the holokeys) now, and then wait a somewhat unpredictable amount of time until the shop rotation allows him to get the right rolls. And only then he'd be able to make the video and get the Youtube revenue for it. Which makes investing time in the farm a fairly questionable business decision.

This is not really applicable to someone who plays the game for the sake of enjoying the game. The weapon bonuses not being maxed out is not preventing us from using the weapons in-game. Yes, they will be more powerful once maxed out - but that can be done later (once the shop rotation changes). So for us it's really not a big deal to just keep the holokeys in the inventory for a few weeks while we play other parts of the game.

And if your only reason to log into the game really is to check the shop - while "playing" it for fun, not money - then something must have gone badly wrong. And it's time to take a break.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:
10 hours ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Which is precisely why DE needs to encourage people to keep playing

I mean, we agree?

Then why are you Stan for a shop where the solution is to sign out and try again in 4 days?

That's precisely where we disagree - the solution is not to sign out and come back in 4 days! The solution is to stay signed in and play some other parts of the game - farm something else, help newer players, hang out with clanmates, or just run some missions you actually enjoy. The shops are only and issue if you can't stand being signed into the game without a very specific task to be done.

There is a further issue with threads like this - by focusing attention on something that's a non-issue to most players, they are drowning out conversations about actual issues (of which in this update there are many!). And if complaints about these trivialities are not refuted - these petty things might get looked at at the cost of things that are actually problematic. In the same way as how Conclave got famously "fixed" by blocking the use of universal medallions.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2021-08-04 at 11:49 AM, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:
On 2021-08-04 at 10:39 AM, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I'm not alone in pointing out that this doesn't work: 

I was waiting for someone to go for the "a steamer said so - so it must be true!" argument!

You can read my original post for my argument. My case is not just that Brozime agrees, but that he (and several others) agree does add weight to the case I already made.

On 2021-08-04 at 11:49 AM, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

So he'd need to invest the time (farm the holokeys) now, and then wait a somewhat unpredictable amount of time until the shop rotation allows him to get the right rolls

I mean, I have to do that too. I want the new weapons, I've got some Holokeys, I now have to wait days, weeks or months for the right elements.

And we're not just talking about holokeys, elite crew have the same issue.

It's the waiting that's tedious.

On 2021-08-04 at 12:19 PM, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

The shops are only and issue if you can't stand being signed into the game without a very specific task to be done

Dude, this isn't work. I'm not getting paid to play this. I'm doing it for fun, when it stops being fun I stop.

I'm saying: "this waiting for a shop to refresh is boring!"

You're argument that I'm just not dedicated enought is irrelevant. How dedicated I (or any other long time players are) doesn't really change the fact that waiting for shop refreshes is a boring way to drag out play time.

On 2021-08-04 at 12:19 PM, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

focusing attention on something that's a non-issue to most players, they are drowning out conversations about actual issues

Ha ha, I raised many of them!

Every issue is a non issue to lots of other players. I talk about the new game progression brick wall between Vor's Prize and Natah and vets go on about how it doesn't affect them. I talk about acquisition of late game weapons and new players are left out.

I think the only universal is just how severe an issue Warframe has with parasitic design and disparate content islands.

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I've already forgotten about this thread! Are you a Necros main?

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

You can read my original post for my argument. My case is not just that Brozime agrees, but that he (and several others) agree does add weight to the case I already made.

You might want to read my reply too. And watch the actual video you are referencing! If you look past the clickbait-y title, the arguments he made in the video are not really applicable to normal players. They are mostly applicable to those for whom playing Warframe is a job. So if you try to argue from the point of view of a normal player, his arguments don't add any weight to yours.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I mean, I have to do that too. I want the new weapons, I've got some Holokeys, I now have to wait days, weeks or months for the right elements.

 

No you don't! You have some holokeys, so you can go buy the versions of the weapons currently available. You can then level/forma the weapons, make some builds and go play with them! You can max them out later! Will those builds be optimal without the right element or maxed bonus? No! But they don't need to be for the weapons to be enjoyed! You can still play with them, you can still use them for all the same content.

The only thing you can't do with the weapons until they are fully maxed with the right element is make a youtube video about how they perform with a fully optimised build.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I'm saying: "this waiting for a shop to refresh is boring!"

And I'm saying: "don't just sit there and wait! Go play the game! Run some missions, hang out with some friends/clanmates, help some rookies!" I don't get bored waiting for the shop to cycle because I don't sit there waiting for it! I just check it when I remember to!

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