What do you guys think of those who try not to execute Liches or Sisters?

[Monolake]

11 minutes ago, Sazero said:

I don't know if this has been said, but Warframe is a game about murder, so ostensibly you should always stab your lich at every opportunity. Everyone who doesn't stab their lich, is a failure as a tenno, and disappoints me personally.

It's not about the loot, it's about sending a message.

wow what a violent tenno!

[Aesthier]

On 2021-08-03 at 8:16 AM, Aquapisces said:

What do you guys think of those who try not to execute Liches or Sisters?

 

 

 

I don't.

 

 

[EmberStar]

6 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm amazed that after almost 10 pages, this thread has not yet been "locked for toxicity". 

It's easier to keep it contained in a single cesspit.  If they kill it, a new thread just like it will pop up in less than an hour.  This whole thing is exactly the same thread that popped up with liches.  First before there even *was* a reward for stabbing them (but it block my lich from spawning, WAAAHHH! ban them!) and then when DE *deliberately changed the mechanic* to make it possible to drive them off without stabbing them.  (But it blocks my lich from spawning *AND* I don't get free murmurs, WAAAAHHHHH! ban them!)

Personally...  I'm done.  Always Stabbers, you win.  There will be one less non-stab player in the game.  Even though I do it almost entirely solo and have NO damn effect on you, that's apparently unacceptable.  So I'm out.  Maybe I'll come back for New War, maybe I won't.  I don't know, and no one else cares.

*Edit*  And to the "Always Stab" crowd - at this point I hope you get EXACTLY what you claim you want, and succeed in driving off every single player who doesn't play the way you demand.  And when you have a harder and harder time finding Lich Hunter teams, I want you to remember that you got EVERYTHING you wanted.

[NecroPed]

19 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would be horribly abused by groups since driving off a lich through 3x down doesnt reset their aggro. So they could just cheese this node by node until a planet is empty, and if they really make sure to get all to spawn on every node that would be 30 murmurs extra per node cleared from the moment the lich starts to show up.

That's a good point. I didn't really think about the idea much but I still feel the system needs some changes. Haven't thought about it enough to really suggest anything at this point though. 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

No, people are going to play how they want. They are going to complain how they want. The cross-section for harmony is where etiquette forms. All the friction, toxicity, wailing, and gnashing of teeth comes from people either not knowing or not following it. It's plenty easy to turn around because he's trying to dictate that you can't complain about other players' behavior. You totally can. He is.

However, my larger point here is that this is mainly only an issue because (yet again) DE put the incentives and design at cross purposes. Instead of going at each other about it, we should be asking DE to fix it.

That doesnt change what PuGs come down to though. Complaining about a PuG not playing your way is straight up silly because the people that complain are fully aware of that when they decide to join a PuG through a RMM. It cannot be turned around when someone points that out to them, since the person that points it out is correct. Sure the complainer can complain, but they shouldnt since it is their own fault for ending up in such a situation in the first place.

The only time a person joining a PuG has a valid complaint towards player behavior is regarding AFKers since people sign up to do a mission with a specific objective, which means playing the mission actively to complete that objective. Liches and sisters are alternate objectives with optional approaches depending on the player needs, you shouldnt complain over someone picking a different option than you since they may need it to be done that way while you dont. If someone doesnt like that they should join likeminded people in premades.

You are right about cross purposes, but DE put those incentives in due to player demand and complaints when it was removed to begin with. Like I said, people even called non-stabbing as griefing cos people didnt get the measly free Kuva at the time when 10x Murmur wasnt a thing. DE should remove the 10x Murmurs, simple as that. Especially now when liches and sisters are already so much faster. Nothing more to complain over for the Puggers that should in reality be in a premade to begin with.

edit: Plus the complainers dont really realize that not everyone is at the same Murmur point as them when a lich appears. An unlucky player can get it on the first node, while the complainer may be on his 4th or 5th on that planet. The one that has it pop on node one should never ever stab, since the whole planet is gone after that. But that is just RNG. Maybe it would have been better that DE made specific "hideout" nodes on each planet where you go visit the lich to try sequences instead of having them pop random. That way all people would be on a lich node for one single reason.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 15 heures, EmberStar a dit :

It's easier to keep it contained in a single cesspit.  If they kill it, a new thread just like it will pop up in less than an hour.  This whole thing is exactly the same thread that popped up with liches.  First before there even *was* a reward for stabbing them (but it block my lich from spawning, WAAAHHH! ban them!) and then when DE *deliberately changed the mechanic* to make it possible to drive them off without stabbing them.  (But it blocks my lich from spawning *AND* I don't get free murmurs, WAAAAHHHHH! ban them!)

Personally...  I'm done.  Always Stabbers, you win.  There will be one less non-stab player in the game.  Even though I do it almost entirely solo and have NO damn effect on you, that's apparently unacceptable.  So I'm out.  Maybe I'll come back for New War, maybe I won't.  I don't know, and no one else cares.

*Edit*  And to the "Always Stab" crowd - at this point I hope you get EXACTLY what you claim you want, and succeed in driving off every single player who doesn't play the way you demand.  And when you have a harder and harder time finding Lich Hunter teams, I want you to remember that you got EVERYTHING you wanted.

So, are you arguing that the complains of a part of the community, about how the people that play like you should go solo, drove you away from playing ? Even though you are already a solo player ?

Sure, that makes so much sense.

Also, can't get enough of those "I'm quitting facebook ! Look at me how much I'm quitting facebook !" comments, this always adds so much to the conversation.

[Azamagon]

There's a technique with Oull that requires you to at least wait to stab your first lich/sis until you know at least 1 Requiem.

It goes something like this:

• Slot Oull in your first slot.
• Slot your 1st known Requiem in your second slot. For clarity's sake, let's say this is Netra. So, sequence is Oull, Netra, random.
• Stab 1 = Bypasses the first slot with Oull, and gives you a chance on the second slot.
  • If the first stab with Netra in the middle slot was correct, you again wait with stabs until you get your 2nd Requiem (which we will call Lohk), which you equip in your 3rd slot.
    • Stab 2 = There's a chance you're already done on your second stab, but if the stab is wrong, swap Oull and Lohk (so the sequence is Lohk, Netra, Oull).
      • Stab 3 = Guaranteed win.
  • If the first stab with Netra in the middle was incorrect, you again wait with stabs until you get another Requiem (which would be Lohk). Equip Lohk in the middle slot and the 1st known Requiem (Netra) in the last slot. (So, sequence is Oull, Lohk, Netra)
    • Stab 2 = You could potentially win now. Or you could not... If it was incorrect, you now only have two guesses to do:
      • Put Oull in the middle, with either of the known requiems in the first and last slots. For example, use the sequence Lohk, Oull, Netra. This could be correct (3 stabs), or incorrect.
        • If it was incorrect, swap the sequence to the other alternative; Netra, Oull, Lohk. This is now a guranteed win (4 stabs).

Use this if you like to significantly cut down on the "guessing game".

I've even had the luck of getting the two first Requiems known without my Sister spawning in even once, and in turn managed to get a bit lucky and kill her in the first encounter, just using this "Oull first" technique.

EDIT:

Also fyi, if you knock out and ignore to stab a Sis/Lich three times, they will go away. This has 3 distinct effects:

1. It does NOT level up your Sis/Lich
2. The Sis/Lich retains their aggro (i.e. how likely they are to spawn next mission)
3. It dismisses them, allowing your other teammates to get their Sis/Lich to spawn too!

So don't just totally ignore them. Beat them up, just skip to stab them (if you don't have known Requiems as per above)

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

There's a technique with Oull that requires you to at least wait to stab your first lich/sis until you know at least 1 Requiem.

Also fyi, if you knock out and ignore to stab a Sis/Lich three times, they will go away. This has 3 distinct effects:

1. It does NOT level up your Sis/Lich
2. The Sis/Lich retains their aggro (i.e. how likely they are to spawn next mission)
3. It dismisses them, allowing your other teammates to get their Sis/Lich to spawn too!

So don't just totally ignore them. Beat them up, just skip to stab them (if you don't have known Requiems as per above)

Yeah, I use the Oull in 3rd slot method, but they are effectively the same thing, just a different order. The logic is no different, just a process of elimination.

I strongly sense that the difference between the "always stab" crowd and everyone else is that they don't understand this process well enough to see why there would be times you wouldn't want to stab. I worked it out on my own through trial and error to optimize it, because I found that if my lich ever landed on Kuva Fort, suddenly the process took significantly longer, was more frustrating, and I stopped enjoying the lich hunt altogether. Stabbing only when it's appropriate to instead of "always" made it so I almost never have to go there anymore.

This whole thread should be dissolved simply on the basis of this information. There's really nothing worth arguing about left because the "always stab" crowd are simply wrong about the factual nature of how this system works.

 

Edit:

I say this as someone who started on the other side of the issue, but the changes that came with Sisters meant I had to change my position too.

[Scruffel]

I don’t mind players at all who don’t stab their Nemesis. It’s more of a issue of either not communicating it or helping with downing them.

For example, I’ve seen multiple players say “ignore my lich / sister” in-game. Now if this is said at the very end of a match, and everyone is near Extraction, and the Hound / Thralls was already taken care of; fine. But if the mission is only half way of being completed, and that is said, then that’s being plain lazy. Just help down them three times and kill the Hounds / Thralls. It benefits everyone. 
 

Doing the bare minimum of helping is all that I expect from a player. Which by the way, should be the point of joining that mission. You’re *fighting* your Nemesis, you don’t even need to stab them, just don’t run away (and if you are, it better be a good reason).

[-Moctezuma-]

 i dont like em

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

On 2021-08-06 at 3:30 PM, FrostDragoon said:

You're saying they don't have a right to complain. They absolutely do. You can mute them, ignore the chat, retaliate, deescalate, explain your rationale, or any number of other options. Instead, you're going to act immature about it and call them "Karens" based solely on your confirmation bias. 🤷‍♂️

because they dont. they know full well what can happen in a PUG.

its much like me warning you that if you eat moldy Bread its going to make you sick, but you do it anyway knowing full well what can happen and then find out the hard way that YA it makes you sick and then you complain about it. im sorry but you were told and did it anyway you have no right to complain about it.

"You can mute them, ignore the chat, retaliate, deescalate, explain your rationale, or any number of other options."

i can but i dont need to. because frankly its none of their concern what I a random does. long as our mission is done and we get the murmurs form the thralls/hound nothing else matters, if their lich spawns they can stab it or not, make sno difference to me. if my lich spawns and i dont stab it its not required for me to explain why, id atleast hope those people are intelligant enough to discern the reason why on their own. expseccially because many of us have explained in detail why we dont stab alot.

 

"Instead, you're going to act immature about it and call them "Karens" based solely on your confirmation bias."

nothing wrong with calling Karens a Karen, because in essense thats what they are. barging into a place filled with strangers and making petty complaints and demands for no good reason and generally acting like a (slang for female dog). 

also how is it confirmation bias for litterally pointing out what is true? if people dont want to be teamed up with those who are non stabbers they can go to recruitment chat, find like minded people or go solo. its interesting how often alot of you will throw that advice at us but never seem to be capable of taking youre own advice when the situation would call for it.

we dont need to adhere to that advice because we arent making a big deal out of nothing, we go in to public knowing what to exspect and dont care what happpens because in the end we signed up for it when we hit that mission node while set to Public.

 

now any more dumb remarks you want to make?

[FrostDragoon]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Madinogi said:

also how is it confirmation bias for litterally pointing out what is true? if people dont want to be teamed up with those who are non stabbers they can go to recruitment chat

The people who want to always stab can do precisely the same thing. The fact that you can't see how easily this can be turned around, despite having several examples provided to you, shows that you don't care about reality. You just want to push your own way of doing things, then accuse others of precisely the same thing. I'm sorry for you that you can't even see the hypocrisy there, but it is what it is.

As for the rest of the arguments, I frankly don't care. I've made my point well enough. Those who aren't ideologically possessed or driven strictly by ego will see why it's true. Everyone else can just suffer in their own flawed beliefs. It has very little to do with me beyond pointing it out for those willing to listen.

I can tell from your tone that you're highly triggered about this. You should really reflect on why it even bothers you. I'm putting my money on ego, but you do you. Figure it out for yourself.

[Gamma745]

Want to chime in just to show this. DE themselves have given this tutorial where it is heavily encouraged for you to try unlocking the requiem first, then try to figure out which Requiem belong to which slot. Before anyone point fingers, knowing which stance the developers would most likely take first won't hurt.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2021-08-06 at 8:30 PM, FrostDragoon said:

You're saying they don't have a right to complain. They absolutely do. You can mute them, ignore the chat, retaliate, deescalate, explain your rationale, or any number of other options. Instead, you're going to act immature about it and call them "Karens" based solely on your confirmation bias.

Your argument is you shopudl not criticise anyone for their opinion, and then you criticise someone for their opinion. 🤡

Karen.

 

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

The people who want to always stab can do precisely the same thing. The fact that you can't see how easily this can be turned around, despite having several examples provided to you, shows that you don't care about reality. You just want to push your own way of doing things, then accuse others of precisely the same thing. I'm sorry for you that you can't even see the hypocrisy there, but it is what it is.

As for the rest of the arguments, I frankly don't care. I've made my point well enough. Those who aren't ideologically possessed or driven strictly by ego will see why it's true. Everyone else can just suffer in their own flawed beliefs. It has very little to do with me beyond pointing it out for those willing to listen.

I can tell from your tone that you're highly triggered about this. You should really reflect on why it even bothers you. I'm putting my money on ego, but you do you. Figure it out for yourself.

That is what he is saying though, that those that want to always stab should go to recruit. Which is correct since if you want everyone to stab, a PuG where anything goes isnt the place for you, since you look for something specific and there are up to 3 other people that may not share your idea. Heading into a PuG and then complaining about that outcome is uhm dum-dum to say the least. And that cant be turned around, since someone who doesnt want to stab cannot be forced to stab, so they'll never go and complain about PuGs which are suited for them to begin with.

edit: And I saw the other comment regarding how those that dont stab could explain why to those that want them to stab. It shouldnt be needed since you are all in a PuG already. The ones who should explain their actions are those who willingly joined a PuG and expected a specific outcome and then complain when that doesnt occur.

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

Your argument is you shopudl not criticise anyone for their opinion, and then you criticise someone for their opinion. 🤡

Karen.

 

Good to see another example of public education at work. Thank you, but my argument was actually that they are just as free to complain as you are to play how you want. The people saying, "Don't expect anything in pubs" are the ones saying, "Don't complain about how people play," while themselves complaining about how people play. It is they who are the Karens. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of their double-standard.

[FrostDragoon]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I saw the other comment regarding how those that dont stab could explain why to those that want them to stab. It shouldnt be needed since you are all in a PuG already. The ones who should explain their actions are those who willingly joined a PuG and expected a specific outcome and then complain when that doesnt occur.

Whether you are using the system correctly or in the "always stab" crowd, you should use Recruiting if you want a specific outcome. Either that, or find better methodology. Either is fine. An example of the latter is why I suggest saving your Exterminates/Captures until you're really close to finishing a reveal, because players tend to zoom through them too fast and ruin several of the spawn opportunities in the misguided belief that they are being "efficient" just because they are fast. This is why I typically start my farming with Survival, Mobile D, and Sabotage. It ensures that enough spawns occur in that run to make significant progress on the murmer.

However, let's remember that this thread exists because people who don't understand how to optimize their farm are crying in an attempt to use social pressure to get others to play how they want to, even if it's less efficient and creates unnecessary work. Before Sisters, I agreed with it because people would frequently cheat me out of my lich spawn by extracting too early. Since we got Oull, we have the tools to make that mostly irrelevant because we can fast track the sequence now. Most of the guess work is gone and you only need enough murmers to reveal 2 of the words instead of all 3 (or 2 + luck).

I made a tangential side argument about reasonable expectations of common etiquette, but anti-social nut jobs here--in typical millennial fashion--want to excuse themselves of any responsibility or accountability to others, so they were properly triggered by the idea that I would hold them to said etiquette in mission. The irony was actually pretty hilarious, given that these were people saying, "Nobody owes you anything," while weeping over the idea that someone who doesn't approve of their behavior will make them wait a full extra minute in a mission. 🤣

[Sazero]

There are 3 groups here:
Stab Karens
No Stab Karens
Puggers who don't give a crap.

Stab Karens and No Stab Karens are the people trying to dictate what happens in a PUG.
They are identical groups with opposite viewpoints.
No one cares if you're factually right, no one likes it for someone else to tell them what to do.

If you belong in a Karen group, go to premake a group so you can get what you want.
If you don't belong to a Karen group, then God bless you on your journey.

It really is that simple.

[Aldain]

11 minutes ago, Sazero said:

There are 3 groups here:
Stab Karens
No Stab Karens
Puggers who don't give a crap.

You forgot "People who Solo Liches/Sisters precisely because of threads like these".

[Sazero]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

You forgot "People who Solo Liches/Sisters precisely because of threads like these".

I didn't forget them, they were just entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Sazero said:

I didn't forget them, they were just entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

I dunno, if more and more people start ascribing to that philosophy PuGs might start getting pretty empty...or just filled with a bunch of people screaming/throwing e-feces at each other.

[FrostDragoon]

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I dunno, if more and more people start ascribing to that philosophy PuGs might start getting pretty empty...or just filled with a bunch of people screaming/throwing e-feces at each other.

So basically like right now, just not empty?

[Sazero]

34 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I dunno, if more and more people start ascribing to that philosophy PuGs might start getting pretty empty...or just filled with a bunch of people screaming/throwing e-feces at each other.

Sir. This is a Wendy's.
We only serve reality burgers here. If you want wild imagination soda, you're gonna have to go to a different business

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

Whether you are using the system correctly or in the "always stab" crowd, you should use Recruiting if you want a specific outcome. Either that, or find better methodology. Either is fine. An example of the latter is why I suggest saving your Exterminates/Captures until you're really close to finishing a reveal, because players tend to zoom through them too fast and ruin several of the spawn opportunities in the misguided belief that they are being "efficient" just because they are fast. This is why I typically start my farming with Survival, Mobile D, and Sabotage. It ensures that enough spawns occur in that run to make significant progress on the murmer.

However, let's remember that this thread exists because people who don't understand how to optimize their farm are crying in an attempt to use social pressure to get others to play how they want to, even if it's less efficient and creates unnecessary work. Before Sisters, I agreed with it because people would frequently cheat me out of my lich spawn by extracting too early. Since we got Oull, we have the tools to make that mostly irrelevant because we can fast track the sequence now. Most of the guess work is gone and you only need enough murmers to reveal 2 of the words instead of all 3 (or 2 + luck).

I made a tangential side argument about reasonable expectations of common etiquette, but anti-social nut jobs here--in typical millennial fashion--want to excuse themselves of any responsibility or accountability to others, so they were properly triggered by the idea that I would hold them to said etiquette in mission. The irony was actually pretty hilarious, given that these were people saying, "Nobody owes you anything," while weeping over the idea that someone who doesn't approve of their behavior will make them wait a full extra minute in a mission. 🤣

Of course, if you want a special outcome you should run a premade. But there is no special outcome to expect if you are a no-stabber, since whatever the others do wont impact you, so a PuG does exactly what a no-stab premade would. Heck, the PuG is more efficient since you may get a stabber in there aswell which would give more murmurs. The etiquette of PuGs is simply that you are ok with whatever happens and it shouldnt be complained about, no one forced you into the chaos that is PuG outcome. Complaining about something you literally could have full control over through a slightly different available choice isnt justifiable.

And yeah, that would apply to no-stabbers aswell that complain that they need to wait for someone that waits for their lich to spawn in a PuG. If you cant respect the individual choices of each player in a PuG (except for afk bullS#&$) you shouldnt PuG. Complaining isnt justifiable, nor the solution in such cases, going with a premade is.

[SocialFox]

This is just like the age-old problem with liches the first few times a thread like this was created before.

Let me say it again for the audience in the back, and for those that only just arrived to my Ted Talk:
"You, do not, have any say, in how other players, play the game."
"You, don't make the rules, DE does."

You host the squad?
Then lay out your expectations for the squad before you recruit for and/or start the mission.

You joined a public squad?
Then you either accept that other people might not share similar ideas of how to play the game as you do and move on, or leave squad.

Pretty simple right?

This is applicable for everything else in the game where you interact with other players.

I, simply, cannot, understand, how, this, is, STILL, an, issue.

NOTE:
This is not intended as an attack on anyone.
But if you're reading this, and feel attacked, then I retract my previous statement.
Cephalon CY:"Meditation: That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be."