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What do you guys think of those who try not to execute Liches or Sisters?


Aquapisces

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I Do not stab my lich/sister unless i know the first requiem, then its a stab every time even if i dont unlock more. but i do make it apoint to down my lich/sister 3 times so it leaves teh mission.

I encourage others to do the same - work/play smarter not harder.

Its not about having to defeat a lvl 5 lich/sister its about clearing the requiem unlocks faster by playing the odds.

if you stab blind you have a 1/8 chance to be right , and a rage reset.

if you stab while knowing at least 1 requiem (which takes as little as 3 missions now) you have a 1/3 chance to be right and the rage reset hits less hard as you now know what to look for.

pair that with the new oull requiem and you can be done in as little as 3 stabs or as much as 4 if you are really unlucky.

 

But honestly if its a pub , its really up to the individual how they wanna play.

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35 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Because it gives you murmurs and you should be guessing every stab? If you can't handle a level 5 Lich/Sister you shouldn't be in the system to be honest. Not stabbing while in a squad griefs others' progress.

 

If you find out a Requiem the same mission your Sister/Lich appears, you should down them, and you shouldn't guess. Your next guess will be more accurate/informative and get you closer to beating your Lich/Sister, you avoid an anger reset. Murmurs isn't the be all end all goal or objective. 

If we are being honest, I would rather play the game with friendly and chill people who are struggling than people who don't struggle but would want to deny people the right to play the game, because they don't live up to high standards of play. People get better with experience, denying them opportunity just because they aren't always inherently optimal or "slowing down others" I dunno. I say that as someone who doesn't struggle, always stabs in PUG. While its nice to play with a super optimal team, I don't know... seems "anti Warframe" to not want to help or play or encourage people playing. 

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I couldn't care less, I do the same thing. The only time it's worth stabbing is if you have a known Requiem to test. If you stab on a known Requiem and fail, then you gain information about where it is later in the sequence. If you stab randomly and fail, you learn nothing and your Lich resets aggro and runs away and you get to warm it up all over again. Demanding that people stab blindly for a pittance of Murmur is just as selfish, if not more. You're telling someone to take a risk with their time and sacrifice it for your benefit, even though 99% of PUGs will immediately dissolve and you'll never see them again.

The only thing I dislike is when someone runs off to leave their Lich behind without making it flee, though this happens very rarely. I don't care if you're not gonna stab, I'm not either unless I'm testing a known Requiem, but the least you could do is stay and clean it up with us.

I will add, though, that there's one case where stabbing is always a good idea. If you know a combination or have an Oull, then you can stab without risk as long as you stop before an unknown Reqiuem. You'll get a little bit of free Kuva with the encounter.

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54 minutes ago, (PSN)Boomstickman98 said:

why not? It gives you murmurs, you automatically have a shot at just downing the thing, it helps your team in pubs. It allows you to prevent yoursself from having to enter a node you hate just to kill them. The reasons can go on and on.

I can only speak for myself, but it's because Rank 5 liches are so boring, so utterly MISERABLE and tedious and unfun to slowly chip away (and I have Steel Path guns, they laugh off entire magazines) that I would rather make you angry and wait for you to leave the squad after the mission is over, than risk leveling up a Rank 5 Lich. Every single time. No contest, not even close. After all it's not like you were gunna stick around and help me fight them, you were gunna leave squad after another three missions anyway, leaving me with a Rank 5 Lich all on my own. 

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10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Every single time. No contest, not even close. After all it's not like you were gunna stick around and help me fight them, you were gunna leave squad after another three missions anyway, leaving me with a Rank 5 Lich all on my own. 

Honestly, I try not to do that. Usually people leave me. I try to help people as much as I can in that timeframe though.

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To OP, this problem existed, that is why DE made it possible for us to down Lich/Sister 3 times, so they will go away and let other players' Lich/Sister spawn in.

So if encounter anyone not stabbing or downing their Lich/Sister, just down Lich/Sister for them to make Lich/Sister go away.

As read from this thread, there are indeed many reasons why some players didn't want to stab their Lich/Sister. Not everyone who doesn't stab their Lich/Sister is a leecher but of course there are, too. lol

So just do the above and move on. There are no need for arrogant behaviour like some players, over this. They just shows that due to their own interests, playing together in harmony doesn't exist. Quite like the toxicity of random pub Eidolon hunts. lol

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I think this can be seen from a few perspectives:

Logically / Mathematically:
Mathematically, always stabbing definitely benefits everyone in the squad when it comes to murmur progression.  If the stab was performed at a sub-optimal occasion (either you have nothing to test or you just unveiled a new word in the mission), then you the stabber will incur the risk of a higher level lich and possibly more missions as the lich's Rage meter will reset upon leveling up.  Basically, this is a fairly classic Prisoner's Dilemma setup with Stabbing = Cooperating and Not Stabbing = Defecting.  For those who are not familiar with game theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma, I highly recommend playing this game to learn the basics: https://ncase.me/trust/.

Socially:
Whether or not not-stabbing is a social transgression depends on the general zeitgeist of your community (server region), does it not?  If everyone else is a non-stabber, then you should be a non-stabber as well.  If everyone else is an always-stabber, then you should be an always-stabber as well.  It is what others expect from you, and it also happens to be the near-optimal strategy in the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If you do not understand why, go play Nicky Case's game I've linked above.  It goes without saying that a community with mostly always-stabbers will always progress much faster than a community with mostly non-stabbers.

Rules-wise:
As this game system was designed by DE, it is clearly not against the rules.  Even in an always-stabbing community, I would say not stabbing is still much less serious than going AFK, which in turn is much less serious than intentional griefing.

Personally:
Most of the players I've met in PUGs in my region stab, so I also happily stab, even when I know I'm just going to level up my lich.  As I have seen some weird bugs and some confusion about whose lich has decided to show up, I will place markers on it and sometimes ask in chat "Whose lich is this?"  Usually, no one responds so we all finish the mission without ever knowing.  In the one occasion when it was clear whose lich it was (because it was just me and them and I even tried pressing x near the lich -- definitely not mine), I decided to just ignore that player in the end, but mostly because they didn't help much, not with the mission and not even to take down their own lich.

IMO, even if you are in an always-stab community, there really is no point chewing someone out over not-stabbing.  But it would be nice if DE labeled the owner of the liches so we can at least avoid the honest mistakes and know who to add to ignore if they are leeching too hard.  For a complete Prisoner's Dilemma implementation, DE would have to keep track of and show us a full history of whether or not each player stabbed when we last played with them, but I think that is a bit too much to ask.

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A thing to note also is that people who dont stab very likely have more useful nodes left on their current planet, which with the new  and "improved" lich system gets fully cleared when the lich moves onto the next planet with the next rank. So even more reason not to stab if you wanna make use of oull to its utmost efficiency and go for a speedy lich takedown session.

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A player in my squad playing sub-optimally?  It's really hard to imagine that.  Sounds like something I should form strong opinions about.

Or alternatively, I could just let a game be a game and allow myself to have fun.  The choice is hard, though.

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1 hour ago, kyori said:

To OP, this problem existed, that is why DE made it possible for us to down Lich/Sister 3 times, so they will go away and let other players' Lich/Sister spawn in.

So if encounter anyone not stabbing or downing their Lich/Sister, just down Lich/Sister for them to make Lich/Sister go away.

That's not what makes people angry. What makes people mad, is that "down three times" doesn't give anyone any murmurs. A failed stab gives the entire squad 10 murmurs.

In theory this creates a trade-off. Ten murmurs now, for a stronger lich later. You might decide that you don't want to take a blind guess until your next Requiem is unveiled. In practice, there's a group of players I call the Always-Stab faction, and they aren't in public to have fun with other players. They are in public so that other players will stab their Liches and give out "free" murmurs. They only see other players as "give me your free murmurs, or you are a terrible leech and deserve to be banned"

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1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

That's not what makes people angry. What makes people mad, is that "down three times" doesn't give anyone any murmurs. A failed stab gives the entire squad 10 murmurs.

In theory this creates a trade-off. Ten murmurs now, for a stronger lich later. You might decide that you don't want to take a blind guess until your next Requiem is unveiled. In practice, there's a group of players I call the Always-Stab faction, and they aren't in public to have fun with other players. They are in public so that other players will stab their Liches and give out "free" murmurs. They only see other players as "give me your free murmurs, or you are a terrible leech and deserve to be banned"

I thought no one would really believe such a thing, until I saw some threads where some players said exactly that, and that they really believed it was leeching to not stab and that you should be banned for it. 

I pointed out to the guy that someone could accuse him of exactly the same thing (leeching) for going into a random game with the expectation of leeching off their murmurs whether it is convenient for the person to stab or not. It goes both ways. 

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1 hour ago, MqToasty said:

I think this can be seen from a few perspectives:

Logically / Mathematically:
Mathematically, always stabbing definitely benefits everyone in the squad when it comes to murmur progression.  If the stab was performed at a sub-optimal occasion (either you have nothing to test or you just unveiled a new word in the mission), then you the stabber will incur the risk of a higher level lich and possibly more missions as the lich's Rage meter will reset upon leveling up.  Basically, this is a fairly classic Prisoner's Dilemma setup with Stabbing = Cooperating and Not Stabbing = Defecting.  For those who are not familiar with game theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma, I highly recommend playing this game to learn the basics: https://ncase.me/trust/.

Socially:
Whether or not not-stabbing is a social transgression depends on the general zeitgeist of your community (server region), does it not?  If everyone else is a non-stabber, then you should be a non-stabber as well.  If everyone else is an always-stabber, then you should be an always-stabber as well.  It is what others expect from you, and it also happens to be the near-optimal strategy in the Prisoner's Dilemma.  If you do not understand why, go play Nicky Case's game I've linked above.  It goes without saying that a community with mostly always-stabbers will always progress much faster than a community with mostly non-stabbers.

I find your analogy to the Prisoner's dilemma flawed. First and foremost, Prisoner's dilemma is a double blind trial, whereas Liches are done right there in public where the other side can pressure you. Secondly, Prisoner Dilemma assumes all players involved are in an equal situation. Not the case in Warframe: you can have player A, an Always-Stabber on his second mission and just jams his Parazon in every lich he sees, player B normally a Not-Stabber who is on his sixth mission ready to test his requiems, and player C, also a Not-Stabber who is on his first mission yet gets his lich to spawn anyway because Murphy's law. I don't feel those situations are equivocal enough to say it's functionally the same as Prisoner Problem

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3 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I don't know about you, but for some reason my sisters literally appear in the very first mission. You are suggesting that I "guess" a requiem mod that I am likely to get wrong 23 out of 24 times (or 95.83¯%). If I know just a single requiem, it helps in the process of elimination. At that point, I don't hesitate to stab the lich-sis.

If playing using a mechanic that DE integrated into their system is grieving, then make a case for DE to remove the "3 knock-downs and leaves" feature. If the feature didn't exist, then I most certainly would stab my lich because I don't want to rooster block other players from meeting their lich-sisters.

The intention of the Lich/Sister system is to guess Requiem Mods while gaining Murmurs to solve each mod. The whole "solve requiems or brute force combinations" is misguidance from DE when advertising the system and an education problem in the playerbase. The fastest way to do a Lich/Sister is to solve requiems through guessing and murmur progress simultaneously. Oull and Requiem Ultimatums further hasten this process. When in a squad, the mechanic of giving Murmur progress to a squad after stabbing your nemesis implies that you should within a match. If you are choosing not to stab, you should be going solo or with other players who wouldn't mind. 

3 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Thanks for saying, "you shouldn't be in the system to be honest". It is demeaning and insensitive, and I expected more from a player with your reputation.

Sorry for the blunt truth. Kuva Liches and Sisters of Parvos are not an "endgame" by player standards, but they are towards the end of the game's progression as far as power offered through their weapons as well as the gear check they impose on the player. A level 1 nemesis and a level 5 nemesis should not dramatically change your Time To Kill (TTK), and your gear should already be accustomed to dealing with these enemies.

I'm not sure what you expect from my forums responses other than the truth about game information and the opinions of an invested player over multiple years with above-average knowledge about most of the systems within the game.

3 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

I can play content with level 5 lich-sisters, but I don't enjoy it. I don't use meta builds and weapons, so I'm not in the "I already melt level 999 content, it's so easy and boring" category of players.

I am not sure what you mean here. Using the right build and the right tool for the job is how you should treat content designed like this. You're not a meta slave for being properly geared and modded for level 5 Liches/Sisters. I don't play level cap at all, but I still make sure I am properly modded for what I'm doing. "I don't follow the meta" isn't an excuse to be improperly geared for the content. Why don't you enjoy level 5 nemesis compared to level 1? As I stated before the TTK should not be dramatically different if you are properly geared for the fight.

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If DE didnt want me to let the sister go when I dont know at least one mod, then they shouldnt have changed  it so that her agression meter resets upon mission finish. 

If i know the mods, sure i'll stab her. Everyone wins, i make progress. If I dont and I stab her tho, I only gain a reset on her meter, a leveled litch and have to start over farming missions when i couldve just wait some more minutes. Im not putting a stick on my bike wheel just so that you can get some more murmur.

What really irks me and is clearly wrose is when people dont kill the hound first when a Sister spawns. If she gets downed the dog explodes and no one gains murmur.

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50 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

What makes people mad, is that "down three times" doesn't give anyone any murmurs

Ah I see. So perhaps if DE is capable.. to make it like fissure. If someone doesn't stab their Lich/Sister, then they won't get the 10 murmurs from those who stabbed.

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If I'm not ready to stab my lich, I won't.  I will knock it down 3 times though so it disappears.  I dont really care if anyone is upset that I didn't stab it.  I'll then help kill the next one that spawns and its up to that player if they then want to stab theirs.  Again, I don't care if they do or not either.

I've played this game too darn long to care about what others in the squad think, say or do.  I will help, pull my weight (often far more than my weight) and make sure the mission is completed.  I'm not gonna play the game to suit others and don't expect others to play the game to suit me.

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10 minutes ago, kyori said:

Ah I see. So perhaps if DE is capable.. to make it like fissure. If someone doesn't stab their Lich/Sister, then they won't get the 10 murmurs from those who stabbed.

There's no real way to track this, since the odds of multiple lich spawns is pretty low no matter what. Nor is there any way to distinguish between the reasons for stabbing. There are a multitude of reasons for Not Stab (though they can be grouped into a much smaller number of categories), and basically none of them can be proven to constitute griefing or leeching. So it all comes down to social norms, and when it's appropriate to share vs when it's reasonable to expect bonus murmurs from someone else's lich

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