Revenant's Thralls

[Flannoit]

PLEASE for the love of everything, make Revenant's Thralls more easily identifiable. The energy colored puppet strings overhead is not a good enough indicator, and causes players to grief him by killing his thralls so he can't even benefit off them whenever he uses any of his other abilities. (Which, to remind you, get stronger when he hits a thrall with them)

Why do they not get an energy color coat or effect? Nekros's undead summons have a visual eroding effect, Inaros's Devour victims have a sand palette applied over them.

I know you hate pet frames, DE, but at the very least make it harder to accidentally grief Revenant.

[Leqesai]

Yes! 

The ability works fine outside of how hard it is to identify affected targets with the Warframe chaos. I think an easy solution would be to do a glow ephemera effect similar to the spore ephemera that the Revenant can see. Other players wouldn't necessarily need to see this but it can be a major pain trying to figure out who is enthralled when trying to reave a group.

[Shade_Kaname]

I personally believe they should make it like Nyx's mind control ability where only nyx can kill them, Same with Revenant, Revenant putting some energy out just for his thrall to get killed is quite annoying as a rev main, Even if you communicate with teammates people are bound to kill them anyway because alot of popular weapons/frames have AoE so other wise its just wasted energy. I personally believe that's how DE should do it honestly, Make it so only Rev can kill them or until the duration of the ability ends then everyone can kill them. Its only fair to be honest

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

16 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

I personally believe they should make it like Nyx's mind control ability where only nyx can kill them, Same with Revenant

IMO, they should actually work Enthrall to be more like another ability of Nyx's: augmented Chaos. I've had some good enough use out of Enthrall in a high Duration build, giving some 20s lifetime to the pillars which spawn when a first generation thrall dies. You basically end up creating multiple lasting zones where enemies constantly get mind controlled. Coupled with the spreading control, I've frequently created scenarios where my team, me included, cannot make me drop below max thralls for more than a few seconds, without recasts. This fiesta can last a good minute or more.

So yeah, what I would love to change is instead of Rev directly casting on an enemy, he could manually create a pillar with longer duration that could create first generation thralls, making it more of a "I want CC in this general area" ability. Alternatively, bump up the base pillar lifetime so that you don't need to run a stat otherwise more niche on Rev.

[ChaoticEdge]

maybe dev should add special effect to let know players that is rev's thrall unit by not only HAVE A ROCK FLOATING ON TOP THEIR HEAD but give "Ghostly vib" or like Rev's cool stream light thing to let the players know it is a thrall.

[Shade_Kaname]

51 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

IMO, they should actually work Enthrall to be more like another ability of Nyx's: augmented Chaos. I've had some good enough use out of Enthrall in a high Duration build, giving some 20s lifetime to the pillars which spawn when a first generation thrall dies. You basically end up creating multiple lasting zones where enemies constantly get mind controlled. Coupled with the spreading control, I've frequently created scenarios where my team, me included, cannot make me drop below max thralls for more than a few seconds, without recasts. This fiesta can last a good minute or more.

So yeah, what I would love to change is instead of Rev directly casting on an enemy, he could manually create a pillar with longer duration that could create first generation thralls, making it more of a "I want CC in this general area" ability. Alternatively, bump up the base pillar lifetime so that you don't need to run a stat otherwise more niche on Rev.

Thats fair, I just think rather than reworking the ability they should fix the problem from the main source, Because ALOT of times People will accidently kill thralls, Id rather it just be so ONLY revenant can kill them until the duration of the ability ends, It feels like wasted energy when Im trying to make thralls and have them spread but they just die because of AOE damage from weapons/guns 

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

IMO, they should actually work Enthrall to be more like another ability of Nyx's: augmented Chaos. I've had some good enough use out of Enthrall in a high Duration build, giving some 20s lifetime to the pillars which spawn when a first generation thrall dies. You basically end up creating multiple lasting zones where enemies constantly get mind controlled. Coupled with the spreading control, I've frequently created scenarios where my team, me included, cannot make me drop below max thralls for more than a few seconds, without recasts. This fiesta can last a good minute or more.

So yeah, what I would love to change is instead of Rev directly casting on an enemy, he could manually create a pillar with longer duration that could create first generation thralls, making it more of a "I want CC in this general area" ability. Alternatively, bump up the base pillar lifetime so that you don't need to run a stat otherwise more niche on Rev.

I agree.

Furthermore it would be nice for visual differentiation between first gen and second gen thralls. So it is clear whether or not it targets are affected by our cast or other thralls. 

[Leqesai]

18 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

Thats fair, I just think rather than reworking the ability they should fix the problem from the main source, Because ALOT of times People will accidently kill thralls, Id rather it just be so ONLY revenant can kill them until the duration of the ability ends, It feels like wasted energy when Im trying to make thralls and have them spread but they just die because of AOE damage from weapons/guns 

I dont really understand the fixation people have with leaving thralls alive. The point of enthrall is to prep for reave, not to make an army of minions. But even if it were, an ally killing a thrall ends up making more thralls so how is that an issue?

[Shade_Kaname]

18 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I dont really understand the fixation people have with leaving thralls alive. The point of enthrall is to prep for reave, not to make an army of minions. But even if it were, an ally killing a thrall ends up making more thralls so how is that an issue?

Not always, Alot of the time the thralls are good and can do decent damage against other enemies, You don't ALWAYS have to reave them. Thats the point of the ability to make an army, OR to reave them. Id just prefer it if only Rev himself could kill them. Its unfair that Im wasting energy on an ability just for them to die IMMEDIATELY because someone else "accidently" killed them

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

Not always, Alot of the time the thralls are good and can do decent damage against other enemies, You don't ALWAYS have to reave them. Thats the point of the ability to make an army, OR to reave them. Id just prefer it if only Rev himself could kill them. Its unfair that Im wasting energy on an ability just for them to die IMMEDIATELY because someone else "accidently" killed them

They really don't do much damage though. They pull agro, which is nice, but they don't do much damage. Enthrall isn't about making an army. This is simply a misunderstanding of what the ability is. It is not mind control nor is it supposed to work like mind control. It is best understood as a plague that causes confusion in enemies, and the plague opens them up for OHKO with reave. The fact that Enthrall was changed to create the pillars that continue infecting enemies is testament to the fact that these enemies are not expected to survive long. 

I've seen numerous threads/arguments for what you're describing and from my own time using revenant across multiple builds I have come to the conclusion that it is simply ineffective to think of the thralls as having any utility (damage-wise). The augment does give Revenant bonuses for living thralls but personally I find this to contradict his intended gameplay. If you're just using Enthrall to make incompetent minions then you are simply not playing Revenant effectively IMO. 

This is a similar argument to the one where some people feel Xaku's Grasp of Lohk is intended to be a CC-disarming tool (it does do this but this is not the point of the ability). Enthrall does convert enemies but this is a side-effect of the more important interaction with Reave. Revenant is a confusing frame for a lot of players due to some of the weird interactions (mesmer skin + enthrall. Disco-laser with Mesmer skin etc.) but Enthrall being used as a way to build an army is very ineffective. Case and point, DE were given the option to make enthralled enemies immune to damage or increase the spread. They increased the spread because the enemies are intended to be killed (usually killed quickly). There is a relatively small hard cap on the number of thralls you can have which encourages using Reave to make more pillars and to continue the spread of Enthrall to more enemies. 

Used in Steel Path infested survival missions you can see the intended gameplay loop pretty easily. Used in missions with low enemy-count it is less obvious the benefit of killing thralls. 

TL:DR

Enthrall is useful as a small CC ability but overshadowed by Mesmer Skin's total immunity. Using Reave to kill Thralls helps spread Enthrall to more enemies. Enthralled enemies do not contribute much damage (especially when you consider Reave is a OHKO for almost everything, which makes the tiny damage they deal irrelevant).

[Shade_Kaname]

8 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

They really don't do much damage though. They pull agro, which is nice, but they don't do much damage. Enthrall isn't about making an army. This is simply a misunderstanding of what the ability is. It is not mind control nor is it supposed to work like mind control. It is best understood as a plague that causes confusion in enemies, and the plague opens them up for OHKO with reave. The fact that Enthrall was changed to create the pillars that continue infecting enemies is testament to the fact that these enemies are not expected to survive long. 

I've seen numerous threads/arguments for what you're describing and from my own time using revenant across multiple builds I have come to the conclusion that it is simply ineffective to think of the thralls as having any utility (damage-wise). The augment does give Revenant bonuses for living thralls but personally I find this to contradict his intended gameplay. If you're just using Enthrall to make incompetent minions then you are simply not playing Revenant effectively IMO. 

This is a similar argument to the one where some people feel Xaku's Grasp of Lohk is intended to be a CC-disarming tool (it does do this but this is not the point of the ability). Enthrall does convert enemies but this is a side-effect of the more important interaction with Reave. Revenant is a confusing frame for a lot of players due to some of the weird interactions (mesmer skin + enthrall. Disco-laser with Mesmer skin etc.) but Enthrall being used as a way to build an army is very ineffective. Case and point, DE were given the option to make enthralled enemies immune to damage or increase the spread. They increased the spread because the enemies are intended to be killed (usually killed quickly). There is a relatively small hard cap on the number of thralls you can have which encourages using Reave to make more pillars and to continue the spread of Enthrall to more enemies. 

Used in Steel Path infested survival missions you can see the intended gameplay loop pretty easily. Used in missions with low enemy-count it is less obvious the benefit of killing thralls. 

TL:DR

Enthrall is useful as a small CC ability but overshadowed by Mesmer Skin's total immunity. Using Reave to kill Thralls helps spread Enthrall to more enemies. Enthralled enemies do not contribute much damage (especially when you consider Reave is a OHKO for almost everything, which makes the tiny damage they deal irrelevant).

That's fair enough but if I as the rev main can't OHKO the enemies what's the point of using the ability is everyone else is just killing them for me? It's like why am I trying to enthrall enemies for me to one hit when I can't be the one OHKO'ing them because everyone else is accidently AOE'ing them

[Leqesai]

14 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

That's fair enough but if I as the rev main can't OHKO the enemies what's the point of using the ability is everyone else is just killing them for me? It's like why am I trying to enthrall enemies for me to one hit when I can't be the one OHKO'ing them because everyone else is accidently AOE'ing them

Hmmm. This is a good point. I think I see where you're coming from now.

[sunderthefirmament]

19 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

That's fair enough but if I as the rev main can't OHKO the enemies what's the point of using the ability is everyone else is just killing them for me? It's like why am I trying to enthrall enemies for me to one hit when I can't be the one OHKO'ing them because everyone else is accidently AOE'ing them

That's a problem that isn't just unique to Revenant though.  It's the reason (well, one of them, at least) that you don't see a lot of Harrows in random games.

 

Revenant's thralls are already immune to a lot of Warframe abilities.  I love Revenant as a frame, but hate when I get him on my team when I'm playing Saryn, for instance.  Thralls can't be Magnetized either, which throws a wrench in Mag's gears too.

[Shade_Kaname]

24 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Hmmm. This is a good point. I think I see where you're coming from now.

Thats why I say it, Its like Im wasting energy to make a OHKO combo but I cant even get OFF my combo because someone else accidently killed my thrall, Example I have a high strength build with rev, It costs me 31 energy to enthral and 62 to reave thats 93 energy to do a one shot and 31 just to enthrall, If Im enthralling and someone kills the enemy I JUST enthralled its wasted energy

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, Shade_Kaname said:

Thats why I say it, Its like Im wasting energy to make a OHKO combo but I cant even get OFF my combo because someone else accidently killed my thrall, Example I have a high strength build with rev, It costs me 31 energy to enthral and 62 to reave thats 93 energy to do a one shot and 31 just to enthrall, If Im enthralling and someone kills the enemy I JUST enthralled its wasted energy

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I completely overlooked that in my rant. 

[Andele3025]

Just make thralls properly propagate (no first vs second gen infection, simply any enemy hit by 1 influenced damage = thralled) and remove 4 popping the jizzfountains. If DE wants 4 to generate shield particles, let it be by hitting knocked down enemies or pop shards when it ends based on its stored damage amp or something generally related to eidolons.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Just make thralls properly propagate (no first vs second gen infection, simply any enemy hit by 1 influenced damage = thralled) and remove 4 popping the jizzfountains. If DE wants 4 to generate shield particles, let it be by hitting knocked down enemies or pop shards when it ends based on its stored damage amp or something generally related to eidolons.

Yes, all of that, please. If nothing else, make the 2nd gen thralls become 1st gen after X seconds. As long as the thralls spread effectively enough, it won't matter if teammates kill them. Or make 2nd gen thralls killed by the 4 also drop beams or something, but definitely remove the 4 fountain popping, because that is a damn anti-synergy.

[Shade_Kaname]

19 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I completely overlooked that in my rant. 

Its cool, I just want revenant to be able to do the one thing he's MEANT to do which is OHKO'ing enemies, Otherwise if I can't Im just a press 2 and shoot weapons frame and occasionally press 4, maybe if they'd make it so Rev's 3 could one shot enemies at all times that'd be nice but that might be too broken just using 1 ability to one hit, But it's just the point if I can't kill the enemies Im MEANT to kill as revenant Im unplayable at that point and it sucks cause I LOVE the character so much because of how fun he can be when he's ABLE to get his one shot off cause its so satisfying, I understand thralls are meant to die but if I CAN'T kill them as "REVENANT" I literally become as I said in the beginning a Press 2 and 4 character and that's it, Most weapons can't keep up with super high SP enemies and Rev is one of those few characters in the game that can one hit 9999's which is awesome 

[Leqesai]

33 minutes ago, Shade_Kaname said:

Its cool, I just want revenant to be able to do the one thing he's MEANT to do which is OHKO'ing enemies, Otherwise if I can't Im just a press 2 and shoot weapons frame and occasionally press 4, maybe if they'd make it so Rev's 3 could one shot enemies at all times that'd be nice but that might be too broken just using 1 ability to one hit, But it's just the point if I can't kill the enemies Im MEANT to kill as revenant Im unplayable at that point and it sucks cause I LOVE the character so much because of how fun he can be when he's ABLE to get his one shot off cause its so satisfying, I understand thralls are meant to die but if I CAN'T kill them as "REVENANT" I literally become as I said in the beginning a Press 2 and 4 character and that's it, Most weapons can't keep up with super high SP enemies and Rev is one of those few characters in the game that can one hit 9999's which is awesome 

Yep. Sign me up to the boat that makes it easier to pull off his combo