Revenant's Thralls Buff

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

If you don’t think Revenant has a theme issue you’re just wrong. It’s not some conspiracy theory that vampires and Eidolons are not the same thing and that making an Eidolon Warframe into a vampire makes zero sense.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it's wrong. A frame can have multiple themes.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, p_silveira said:

I haven't seen anyone in this thread except you who cares about that theme discussion electric boogaloo yet. I know for certain I don't. And it isn't the topic of the thread, if discussing that is your objective I suggest you either find a thread where this topic is pertinent or make a new one yourself.

Shadow is a re-spawned enemy with a Tenno faction label timer and some buffs/debuffs. Rumblers are their own thing, with their own set of stats and abilities, whereas Shadows use the same base stats (with buffs/debuffs depending on Nekros's build) and abilities as the enemies Nekros killed. That makes thralls way more alike to shadows than to Rumblers. End of that.

Except Revenant can't enthrall 20 enemies at a time and in a second, everyone knows he is limited to 7 and it takes at least some seconds before he can reach max number. So this potential argument about "potential trolling" on invulnerable thralls just rolls out the window as well. By the way, the discussion here is about Revenant, not Nidus or Garuda (which you brought earlier), it's about Revenant.

Still waiting for an argument to prove that this would happen. Based on the last topic in this response, it doesn't.

OP didn't even mentioned that gimmick. I mean, I really don't care  if you like or hate it and it isn't the topic here either. The topic here is that people want to keep their thralls around for their reasons (not pertinent if they're good or bad tactics, it's their gameplay), and the fact that they die to friendly fire makes that nigh impossible. Keep to the topics at hand in the thread, or go make another thread about them if you so want.

Well I didn’t really want to completely derail the thread into a full blown Rev argument. I only keep bringing up his theme because you keep bringing it up.

I was really hoping you weren’t going to just default to “but they’re enemies therefor they are like Enthrall and mind control”. While Shadows are derived from enemies, the shadows themselves are not the enemies themselves. They are effectively a separate unit that has the stats of whatever enemy that was skilled filled that slot. Thus putting them closer to something like Rumblers. Or maybe a better comparison would be to Inaros sand shadow. Either way it’s rather ignorant to say that Shadow is similar enough to enthrall simply due to parts of the abilities involving interacting in enemies. Despite those interactions being completely different.

Hey man you wanted me to provide a reason as to why Thralls shouldn’t be made unkillable. You can’t complain about the reason I gave regarding another frame who had a similar issue in the past. Especially when you had zero hang ups discussing Nekros in the paragraph above.

Correction. OP did complain about being unable to one shot enemies because his squadmates are killing them first.

On 2021-08-06 at 10:52 PM, Shade_Kaname said:

 

I'm not asking for a rework, I just want Revenant to be able to do what he's SUPPOSE to which is OHKO'ing enemies with his 1,3 combo but he can't due to the fact that others are "accidently" able to kill his thralls, I don't see an issue with thralls only being accesible to Rev

So me talking about it is well within the parameters of the topic.

[p_silveira]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well I didn’t really want to completely derail the thread into a full blown Rev argument. I only keep bringing up his theme because you keep bringing it up.

I was really hoping you weren’t going to just default to “but they’re enemies therefor they are like Enthrall and mind control”. While Shadows are derived from enemies, the shadows themselves are not the enemies themselves. They are effectively a separate unit that has the stats of whatever enemy that was skilled filled that slot. Thus putting them closer to something like Rumblers. Or maybe a better comparison would be to Inaros sand shadow. Either way it’s rather ignorant to say that Shadow is similar enough to enthrall simply due to parts of the abilities involving interacting in enemies. Despite those interactions being completely different.

Shadows and thralls are almost the same thing, both are enemy units with the same AI, with Tenno labels sticked onto them, the difference is that one was despawned and respawned with some % buffs, and the other just had it's label temporarily rewritten and got no buffs. Both still the same enemy unit, using enemy AI and having enemy base stats. Rumblers are completely different units that have their own stats and AI, different from the enemies we encounter in most levels. Therefore, thralls are way more similar to shadows, and could benefit from friendly fire invulnerability the same way.

 

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hey man you wanted me to provide a reason as to why Thralls shouldn’t be made unkillable. You can’t complain about the reason I gave regarding another frame who had a similar issue in the past. Especially when you had zero hang ups discussing Nekros in the paragraph above.

Except that as stated before, his Shadows and Enthrall share a lot of similarities, which makes the comparison and relation to one another way more easy to bring. Plus the Nekros thing was going on for a long time, whereas Garuda's thing was brought up from thin air.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Correction. OP did complain about being unable to one shot enemies because his squadmates are killing them first.

On 2021-08-07 at 12:52 AM, Shade_Kaname said:

 

I'm not asking for a rework, I just want Revenant to be able to do what he's SUPPOSE to which is OHKO'ing enemies with his 1,3 combo but he can't due to the fact that others are "accidently" able to kill his thralls, I don't see an issue with thralls only being accesible to Rev

Ah, so that's what OHKO means. I'm getting too old for this sh*t. In any case, both OP with his one hit kill mechanic AND other people who want to keep thralls alive for other reasons would benefit a lot from them having friendly fire invulnerability, and it wouldn't troll squadmates at all because thralls are limited to 7 simultaneous thralls.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 hours ago, p_silveira said:

Shadows and thralls are almost the same thing, both are enemy units with the same AI, with Tenno labels sticked onto them, the difference is that one was despawned and respawned with some % buffs, and the other just had it's label temporarily rewritten and got no buffs. Both still the same enemy unit, using enemy AI and having enemy base stats. Rumblers are completely different units that have their own stats and AI, different from the enemies we encounter in most levels. Therefore, thralls are way more similar to shadows, and could benefit from friendly fire invulnerability the same way.

 

Except that as stated before, his Shadows and Enthrall share a lot of similarities, which makes the comparison and relation to one another way more easy to bring. Plus the Nekros thing was going on for a long time, whereas Garuda's thing was brought up from thin air.

Ah, so that's what OHKO means. I'm getting too old for this sh*t. In any case, both OP with his one hit kill mechanic AND other people who want to keep thralls alive for other reasons would benefit a lot from them having friendly fire invulnerability, and it wouldn't troll squadmates at all because thralls are limited to 7 simultaneous thralls.

No, Nekros shadows are Ally units that have the same AI as the enemies. He doesn’t convert an enemy that’s currently present on the map into a shadow. He kills and enemy and that enemy gets summoned back as an ally when Shadows of the dead is cast.

And Nidus had the same issue Revenant currently does. Where enemies affected by one of their abilities were killed by team mates before they could take advantage of it. I just mentioned Garuda because that’s the frame I default to when talking about frames who’s powers are reliant on enemies being present.

And again, if you want Thralls to be unkillable to squadmates the more logical solution is just turn Thralls into summonable Vomvalysts that Revenant can interact with with his abilities. That way they won’t get killed by squadmates and would honestly be a more reliable ability overall.

[p_silveira]

On 2021-08-13 at 11:28 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, Nekros shadows are Ally units that have the same AI as the enemies. He doesn’t convert an enemy that’s currently present on the map into a shadow. He kills and enemy and that enemy gets summoned back as an ally when Shadows of the dead is cast.

Yeah, like I said earlier, one is a respawned converted enemy unit and the other one is just a converted unit. Pretty much the same.

On 2021-08-13 at 11:28 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And Nidus had the same issue Revenant currently does. Where enemies affected by one of their abilities were killed by team mates before they could take advantage of it. I just mentioned Garuda because that’s the frame I default to when talking about frames who’s powers are reliant on enemies being present.

Nice for Nidus. Revenant's thralls on the other hand are completely useless 99% of the time because they don't live long enough. Which could be fixed by giving them friendly fire immunity.

[TheGrimCorsair]

On 2021-08-12 at 2:22 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean that it's wrong. A frame can have multiple themes.

Seriously, all GearsMatrix does is troll about Revenant. You're best off blocking it, makes the forums a better place overall.

[LillyRaccune]

1 hour ago, p_silveira said:

Yeah, like I said earlier, one is a respawned converted enemy unit and the other one is just a converted unit. Pretty much the same.

37 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Seriously, all GearsMatrix does is troll about Revenant. You're best off blocking it, makes the forums a better place overall.

I can't comment on your experiences with that player, but they are correct about Revenant Thralls and Nekros Shadows using different AI protocols.

Example: A Nekros Shadow will occupy nearby Ramparts and deploy Blunts. Sometimes the AI will "hunker down" and camp in a certain area and refuse to follow Nekros if he leaves the room.

Spoiler

A single Revenant Thrall will prioritize engaging a group of enemies to spread the thrall effect. A group of thralls follow the engagement patterns similar to a companion pet, they will attack high-aggro enemies and focus on following along if Revenant leaves the room.

How they function in combat is different, therefore the AI protocols are different.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, p_silveira said:

Yeah, like I said earlier, one is a respawned converted enemy unit and the other one is just a converted unit. Pretty much the same.

Nice for Nidus. Revenant's thralls on the other hand are completely useless 99% of the time because they don't live long enough. Which could be fixed by giving them friendly fire immunity.

Ok if you recognize that then why did you spend the last several posts arguing that despite their differences in minion creation, Shadows way of doing things justifies making Revenants Thralls unkillable?

And DEs not going to give a frame the ability to lock off enemies from being killed. If you want Revenants Thralls to only be available to him then his Thralls have to be changed from an enemy directly converted into an ally into a minion that is directly summoned like Rumbers or Celestial twin.

[p_silveira]

9 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

Example: A Nekros Shadow will occupy nearby Ramparts and deploy Blunts. Sometimes the AI will "hunker down" and camp in a certain area and refuse to follow Nekros if he leaves the room.

As far as I remember, thralls do the exact same thing, don't they?

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok if you recognize that then why did you spend the last several posts arguing that despite their differences in minion creation, Shadows way of doing things justifies making Revenants Thralls unkillable?

Recognize what? My point was the same since the start, they are the same thing except one was despawned/respawned and the other wasn't. You were the one comparing them to Atlas's rumblers for some reason (lol wut)?

10 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Seriously, all GearsMatrix does is troll about Revenant. You're best off blocking it, makes the forums a better place overall.

 

Still makes for good traffic in the post, bringing it back to top. So there's that. Still makes the discussion way longer than it should, but hey, free traffic is free traffic. Maybe it helps to bring the issue to DE's attention (my hopes are super low, but we never know...).

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And DEs not going to give a frame the ability to lock off enemies from being killed.

It already has. Garuda's blood altar, Nyx's mind control, Nidus's parasitic link, just to name a few. And to make things worse, both Garuda and Nidus's abilities don't change the enemy faction, allowing them to troll in Defense. Revenant's thralls don't even have this problem

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

21 hours ago, p_silveira said:

As far as I remember, thralls do the exact same thing, don't they?

Recognize what? My point was the same since the start, they are the same thing except one was despawned/respawned and the other wasn't. You were the one comparing them to Atlas's rumblers for some reason (lol wut)?

 

Still makes for good traffic in the post, bringing it back to top. So there's that. Still makes the discussion way longer than it should, but hey, free traffic is free traffic. Maybe it helps to bring the issue to DE's attention (my hopes are super low, but we never know...).

It already has. Garuda's blood altar, Nyx's mind control, Nidus's parasitic link, just to name a few. And to make things worse, both Garuda and Nidus's abilities don't change the enemy faction, allowing them to troll in Defense. Revenant's thralls don't even have this problem

Your argument is because summoned allies that are created through dead enemies are unkillable to squadmates that enemies that are temporarily converted to allies should also be unkillable to squadmates.

There’s a difference between making a singular enemy unkillable and making several enemies unkillable.

[p_silveira]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your argument is because summoned allies that are created through dead enemies are unkillable to squadmates that enemies that are temporarily converted to allies should also be unkillable to squadmates.

That's not the reason for it, it's just the most closely related in-game comparison. The causes for it, as you probably know by now, is that people want to keep their thralls around because they want them to be around in order to play a certain playstyle (be it CC, or dmg boost through Thrall Pact, etc).

15 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There’s a difference between making a singular enemy unkillable and making several enemies unkillable.

Yeah. The number. 😆 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 hours ago, p_silveira said:

That's not the reason for it, it's just the most closely related in-game comparison. The causes for it, as you probably know by now, is that people want to keep their thralls around because they want them to be around in order to play a certain playstyle (be it CC, or dmg boost through Thrall Pact, etc).

Yeah. The number. 😆 

The problem is the comparison doesn’t work in your arguments favor due to the difference between a summoned ally and a converted enemy. If you want the Thralls to be only usable by Revenant than it’s more reasonable to give him a summonable ally instead of just giving him the ability to make enemies unkillable.

Exactly, and the number of enemies affected by an ability dictates it’s impact in gameplay. 1 unkillable enemy is fine, several is going a tad too far.

[Beas7ie]

Possibly unpopular opinion but I think the thralls thing needs to be scrapped and replaced with summoning something like the sentient vomalysts.

[p_silveira]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The problem is the comparison doesn’t work in your arguments favor due to the difference between a summoned ally and a converted enemy. If you want the Thralls to be only usable by Revenant than it’s more reasonable to give him a summonable ally instead of just giving him the ability to make enemies unkillable.

 

The difference which we already went back and forward being minimal? Nah, hard don't agree there. Invulnerable thralls would be way easier to implement, and would work wonderfully. If DE make it a mechanic inside the Thrall Pact augment it would be perfect. People who want their thralls around would get it, and people who want them killed all the time could have that as well.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 hours ago, p_silveira said:

The difference which we already went back and forward being minimal? Nah, hard don't agree there. Invulnerable thralls would be way easier to implement, and would work wonderfully. If DE make it a mechanic inside the Thrall Pact augment it would be perfect. People who want their thralls around would get it, and people who want them killed all the time could have that as well.

The difference is pretty major. Enthrall has more in common with Mind control than Shadows of the Dead.

Except DE explicitly said that Thralls are supposed to die. That’s part of their whole mechanic. I mean they’ve already responded to this complaint by giving Enthralls damage pillars the ability to enthrall enemies too.

Also it wouldn’t be that hard to change Revenants Thralls from converted enemies to summoned allies. Warframes compromised of copy/paste spaghetti code. It’s as simple as deleting Enthralls code, copying Atlas 4s code, pasting it to Revenants 1, changing the 2 to a different number and change the summoned entity from Rumblers to Vomvalysts.

[p_silveira]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except DE explicitly said that Thralls are supposed to die. That’s part of their whole mechanic. I mean they’ve already responded to this complaint by giving Enthralls damage pillars the ability to enthrall enemies too.

We know. That's why we want them changed. 

10 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also it wouldn’t be that hard to change Revenants Thralls from converted enemies to summoned allies. Warframes compromised of copy/paste spaghetti code. It’s as simple as deleting Enthralls code, copying Atlas 4s code, pasting it to Revenants 1, changing the 2 to a different number and change the summoned entity from Rumblers to Vomvalysts.

Compare that to just slapping ally invulnerability to the existing thralls, and it's clear that it is a lot easier. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 hours ago, p_silveira said:

 

Compare that to just slapping ally invulnerability to the existing thralls, and it's clear that it is a lot easier. 

But that then leads to people being able to engage in toxic behavior with Revenant. 

[Pizzarugi]

On 2021-08-20 at 8:18 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that then leads to people being able to engage in toxic behavior with Revenant. 

The only toxic behavior that could be done this way would be freezing waves in defense, which can easily be remedied by making thralls not count towards enemies in the wave.

[p_silveira]

On 2021-08-20 at 11:18 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But that then leads to people being able to engage in toxic behavior with Revenant. 

No it doesn't. We already went through that.  Active thralls don't stop Defense waves from progressing, and they don't have numbers enough to not let other people use their abilities (you know, since in any given moment you will have more than 7 enemies).

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The only toxic behavior that could be done this way would be freezing waves in defense, which can easily be remedied by making thralls not count towards enemies in the wave.

Yeah, and that is already implemented in the game. If you have active thralls on a given Defense round and kill the last non-thrall enemy unit, the Defense round will progress normally. Thralls do not troll defense waves.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

The only toxic behavior that could be done this way would be freezing waves in defense, which can easily be remedied by making thralls not count towards enemies in the wave.

Just gonna ignore the numerous times I mentioned that make Thralls unkillable gives Revenant the ability to just stop allies from being able to kill enemies, and all because you want to kill them instead.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just gonna ignore the numerous times I mentioned that make Thralls unkillable gives Revenant the ability to just stop allies from being able to kill enemies, and all because you want to kill them instead.

Just gonna ignore the fact that Revenant already has a system in play that converts new Thralls for you when 1st gens are killed. But sure, go on for a few more pages about this non-issue.

[Pizzarugi]

On 2021-08-21 at 1:16 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Just gonna ignore the numerous times I mentioned that make Thralls unkillable gives Revenant the ability to just stop allies from being able to kill enemies, and all because you want to kill them instead.

Just gonna ignore the fact that 7 thralls isn't magically going to allow Revenant to troll, in a mission where you could be fighting 30+ enemies all at once.

Trolling requires deliberately following victims around and interfering with their game. For Revenant to effectively troll, he'd need to constantly enthrall and kill one enemy at a time which is whatever the victim was trying to interact with. That is extremely slow compared to simply mass murdering the room as Saryn or Mesa or even just using Danse Macabre and following the victim around. The strategy is also unviable, because you can't guarantee that a pillar you left behind didn't create thralls somewhere else and took you to your cap, thus interfering and trolling yourself.

Seriously, if you want to troll players who need to interact with enemies, you're much better off playing a nuke frame. Revenant can only control 7 thralls, Saryn or Mesa or Equinox or Volt can wipe out 30+ enemies with a single button. Limbo, despite the nerfs he received to his griefing potential, is a far more effective troll than Revenant will ever be. All he has to do is follow someone and keep spamming 1. You think a troll cares if someone can roll out when he can just tap 1 again?

6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Just gonna ignore the fact that Revenant already has a system in play that converts new Thralls for you when 1st gens are killed. But sure, go on for a few more pages about this non-issue.

The pillars only spawn on 1st gen thralls, and knowing teammates, they already murdered all the enemies near the pillars so no new thralls are being made anyway.

Even if a pillar did create a 2nd gen thrall, teammates are also going to murder them as well.

[Xionor]

As a Revenant main I would agree with OP that it's often a waste of energy to use his 1 as you could just kill the enemies faster without using it or your teammates in Steel Path are just gonna nuke your thralls 0,1 second after you've created them.

47 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The pillars only spawn on 1st gen thralls, and knowing teammates, they already murdered all the enemies near the pillars so no new thralls are being made anyway.

Even if a pillar did create a 2nd gen thrall, teammates are also going to murder them as well.

 

That is exactly the big problem wtíth his 1. The pillars are supposed to infect new enemies but the range is too small to infect a NEW GROUP of enemies.

Everything inside the pillars homing range has already died through your meta AOE team mates.

They would have to increase the homing range by a lot and also make the balls fly through textures and reduce the damge as a compensation.

Or the pillars could also aim at Rev and charge him up. If enemies come within x meters range, the charges could automatically seek out nearby enemies.

 

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

34 minutes ago, Xionor said:

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

The pillars only spawn on 1st gen thralls, and knowing teammates, they already murdered all the enemies near the pillars so no new thralls are being made anyway.

Even if a pillar did create a 2nd gen thrall, teammates are also going to murder them as well.

That is exactly the big problem wtíth his 1. The pillars are supposed to infect new enemies but the range is too small to infect a NEW GROUP of enemies.

A reply to you both.

Speaking as someone with 30s duration pillars, and 18m seek radius, I can say that it's very hard for my teammates to keep my thralls consistently dead. If you're unable to get any thrall kills despite that, it sounds more like you're too slow on the killing front. And if teammates can kill your thralls that easily, why would you even need the one shot combo? If teammates are camping your thralls, kill stuff elsewhere. Convert and nuke your own thralls to create pillars everywhere.

But sure, I could see a buff to the base duration and range of the pillars, or something. A thrall survivability buff would be misguided and overkill, tho.

[Maryph]

Le 04/08/2021 à 01:52, Shade_Kaname a dit :

I know DE is quite not too hefty on giving buffs but I believe as someone who mains Revenant that his thralls need just a small fix, Its quite annoying when people just kill my thralls just because they CAN, I personally wish that his thralls should be like Nyxs' mind control ability but instead where only Revenant can kill the thralls until the duration of his ability ends. Especially with AoE Weapons/Warframes being popular most people often kill the thralls on accident even with communication with a team just for that reason. It honestly feels like my energy is wasted every time I press 1 on my keyboard because of how OFTEN it happens where they just die and the thralls aren't able to do anything at all. Please DE make it so only Rev can kill his thralls until the duration ends otherwise please, I genuinely feel like I'm just spewing out energy because of how often people kill them on accident

Like other said, they have to die (don't look at the augment, it's S#&$).
What I would like, is the capacity for beta thralls created by pillars or hits from alpha thralls, to be able to create enthralling pillars.
This way it would be a lot more simpler, you enthrall one guy, and the chain keeps repeating until the ability runs out of duration.
You could have pillars everywhere and Protea's shrapnel nades are now a thing, so yeah, it's no harm to the game at all.
I don't know why that isn't already a thing.
And an up on his 1 duration too.
I also don't like the counter synergy where 4 detonate pillars. You need pillars to stop babysitting you thralls everytime they die, why would I want the pillars to be detonated by my 4, only to see the explosion deal 4K damage to lvl 5K ennemies ?
Again, a mystery, they should stop testing things in god mode and at lvl 1

Aside from that, he's fine since he's invincible, I guess. You need to play it around it's wall thing to deal damage.
Thralls are just the fuel for mesmer skin, that's it, they have no other purpose.