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Dev Workshop: Corrupted Holokey Changes


[DE]Rebecca

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3 minutes ago, quxier said:

Read what I've written. 21 mission IF it drops Holos every 3rd mission.

Having 100 void traces doesn't mean you get a rare or an uncommon part.

But it doesn't, so this point is just completely vacuous. It'd be like saying "Opening 100 Relics would give you 16 Rares and 34 Uncommons IF they dropped that often".

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Haven't read all comments, tldr. Easy fix for guaranteed weapon every 2 days, do Steel Path alert style mission. Have 5 alerts, 4 keys reward, resets every 24hrs. Simple, easy and dont change anything else. Well, maybe Sevagoth to the key shop looked good(10-15 keys per part depending on DE choice)

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Wow ! I have been busting my arse on holokeys completely unaware of these changes. Oh well. I found a pattern that started to payout much better than the most ridiculous odds I was having. Voidstorms are superfun except the super fun Volitile mode is too risky to lose it all, especially w a squad. I have suggestions for volitile in void storm but that will be another day

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17 hours ago, quxier said:

Nope. You know what's probability is? You have a box with 10 balls. 9 balls are blue and 1 ball is red. You put your hand (not seeing colors of the balls) and pick one. You have 10% chance to get red. You put the ball back. What's your chance of getting red ball? It's still 10%.

Now, next problem is 40% of getting uncommon. Sure, it's 40% of getting one uncommon part... OR UNCOMMON FORMA (which I consider common stuffs). You get 20% chance to get uncommon part.

Summing it up you get 30% to get uncommon or rare part.

Sure, that's a change but it's so small that I haven't seen any change in 26 runs.

Of course RJ is harder for some of us (I don't have good gear and, for example, Veil Storm took me ~1 hour) but I mean how certain you are to get a weapon. You need to farm relics, then Void traces. If I gave you 100 radiants to do solo can you tell me that you will get at least 1 uncommon and 1 rare stuff? No, you cannot.

Now take Holos. It drops 1/3 of missions. If you do 21 you should get 42 Holos. That's 1 weapon guaranteed. Sure, it can takes more than 21 runs but you still get that weapon guaranteed. Of course if it takes much more missions per drop then I consider it as a bug.

 

So....you seem to be selectively interpreting reality here.  I do not often agree with a lot of the people who are levelling questions here, but they have a point.

 

Let's look at some basic examples, and then maybe you can understand.  Before this though, we can start with some basic statements of fact.

1) 99.99% drop chance is not an assurance.  It by definition means that 1/10,000 instances does not have a drop.  If there is rounding, it could mean that 15/100,000 instances don't have a drop.

2) Holokeys are a 37.5% chance drop on missions.  This is defined by DE's drop tables.  

3) For all relics you have 3 common, 2 uncommon, and 1 rare drop item.

4) Standard relics have a 25.33%-11%-2% drop ratio for each item.

5) Radiant relics convert this to 16.67%-20%-10%.

 

 

So, let's talk about things here.  Relic drops are defined to be 100% RNG.  That means that your probability of not getting a rare drop is 1-.9n where n represents the amount of radiant relics rolled.  This means, because xn approaches but never equals zero, you can mathematically run an infinite number of radiant relics and never get a rare reward.  This holds true for all outcomes, because each of them by definition creates a situation where the probability of getting any drop never reaches 100%, because the mathematical equation precludes this.

So, answering your earlier statements there is no guaranteed outcome.  To say so is fundamentally misunderstanding the math.  It's probably you reading the wiki and not understanding the qualifier that "guaranteed" there means they decided to choose an arbitrarily high percentage, and call it guaranteed.

 

Now, what about specific outcomes?  This may be stone stupid to state, but any outcome is simply a subset of the potential outcomes.  Expressing this for a radiant relic, 50% of people get a common on the first run, 40% get an uncommon, and 10% get a rare.  There is mathematically a person that gets a rare on each of 100 outcomes.  That person managed 0.1100 odds, or 1/(1*10100).  More realistically, with a pool of millions of users, somebody out there got that rare drop 6 times in a row.  This is an outcome assuming that DE's drop tables are right, and you have a sample size which arbitrarily can be defined to be capable of being large enough to represent a truly RNG selection.

 

 

So...we've debunked the argument about void key drops, but what about void traces?  Well, that's not a true RNG system.  What it is, is a guaranteed base and an additional RNG quantity.  Basically, assume that the reward is 5+n, where n represents everything for 0 to 45.  The unluckiest person out there is guaranteed to have n equal zero every time, but because you start with a base of 5 guaranteed you get enough to make a relic radiant after just 20 runs.  The luckiest soul gets that same 100 after 2 runs.  This is what people are asking for with holokeys to some extent.

 

 

Taking that cue, let's discuss holokeys.  The obvious statement is that no mission is guaranteed to drop them.  This is established above in the definition of rewards, and explaining how RNG rewards based on probability work.  So, what's the big deal?  37.5%, with a drop quantity of  5 currently and 10 eventually.  That means on average you get 0.375*5 = 1.875 holokey per run, and after 22 runs you on average earn a single tenet melee weapon, right?  

Well, yes.  Assuming you are willing to grind a functionally limitless amount of missions you'll on average get 1.875 keys for each mission.  The problem then lies with the subset of outcomes, not the superset which you use as an average.  If I run the mission 10 times the likelihood of getting no keys is 0.62510 or 0.9%.  Yes, 9 in 1000 people will run the mission 10 times and literally never see a holokey.  If you run it the full 22 times, 3 in 100000 see no holokeys.  If your user base is millions, this represents somewhere in the range on 30-100 people who literally never see a holokey after 22 runs.

Not that there's also the opposite thing going.  You've got a 37.5% chance of getting the drop, so 0.37510 have 50 holokeys, or 5 in 100000 have gotten 1.25 tenet weapons worth of holokeys.

 

 

This is the problem with a 100% RNG reward, scaled to mission levels, that has no "pity factor."  It's why DE decided on a guaranteed single key drop from the sisters as a "guaranteed" item.  In this way you can't be angry, because there's always a way to get a key.  The issue of course is that the sisters require grinding out requiem mods, grinding out granum tokens, grinding out requiem relics for the mods, and then grinding out the sister to get a single key.  You of course need 40 of the things....which represents 120 requiem mod charges.  That's not 40 drops of requiem mods, because 4 expended requiem mods can be turned into a new one, but with RNG drops from the relics it represents literally hundreds of them ground out.  If you then quadruple this for multiple weapons, and further increase it to cover the fact that multiples of each weapon are needed to max the elemental bonus, it becomes a near infinite grind non-starter.

So, DE is making the RNG slightly less terrible by significantly increasing the drop on one of four types of missions...but keeping the same low drop rates.  They are adding guaranteed drops...but it's behind an even more sheer grind wall.  All of this is predicated on "fixing" the system that people are already calling broken, but instead of understanding what is broken they've slightly increased rewards....that some may literally never see because of the bad drop rates.

This is what I'd like to call an insulting fix, because it ignores the root of the problem and assumes we are idiots.  The problem is securing these drops, given the rate.  The solution proposed in not to offer different viable paths, but to give us slightly more if we can ever get the drops.  Seriously, WTF?

 

 

 

So, let me guarantee you a solution.  Let me also base this upon existing solutions present in the game.  Each side objective drops a guaranteed number of holokeys.  They also have a range.  This is a 1-3 quantity per side objective.  This means that on Venus where there is one side objective you earn between 1-3 keys, if you engage with railjack and do more.  This peaks in the Veil, where you're guaranteed 4 keys for doing the objectives, but can earn up to 12.  

Why is this a solution?  Well, side objectives are doing railjack, which is what DE wants.  Right now, the incentive is to bomb through a minimum of content and get that 37.5% roll before repeating as quickly as possible.  That's reinforcing to players that side objectives get ignored, and Railjack can languish.  This is trying to sell railjack, and giving us the worst it has to offer.  In short, stupid.

Likewise, why 1-3?  This means a good Venus run can outstrip the guaranteed Neptune run, because 3>1+1.  Well, this is your RNG.  3>2, but 3<<6.  Likewise, 4 is your minimum in the Veil, which is less than the 6 potential for Neptune, but if you weight the outcomes as well (50%, 30%, 20%) the large outcomes will make people disregard the bad impressions of a run with low rewards.

Finally, why secondary objectives?  Why do I want to force a minimum of 10 completed runs in the Veil to get a tenet weapon?  The goal here is to expose people to railjack, right?  The rewards then should be about engagement, and not RNG.  If you want to not engage with the content that's fine, just be warned that you'll be doing a lot more of it.  Likewise, if people discover stuff they like they should be rewarded for grinding it out.  You give players the option to engage, and highlight that engagement means rewards, they're likely to engage and discover something fun without even realize they're being dragged by the nose to a system that largely is still a content island.

 

Why even propose the above?  Yeah, it's a hybrid RNG and guaranteed reward that is based upon engagement.  It's exactly what a competent company would want to stimulate engagement, but also make sure people don't burn out with bad RNG rolls.  Most assuredly it isn't going to be implemented.  

Yeah, I agree.  DE just doesn't do this sort of thing anymore.  I'm speaking hypothetically in a feedback thread, and it'll get buried under a mountain of people screaming about other related but tangential things and taking offense.  Whatever.  I'm burned out.  This system should get a real overhaul....but I'm not holding my breath.  This level of grind has managed to burn out partners....so why do I expect DE to do anything?  I already know that they are planning on this underwhelming garbage, and this feedback thread will be ignored.

 

 

 

Sigh.  I wish DE cared anymore.  I wish I could care.  I'm about 5 weeks from logging off for a while...and maybe coming back.  The five weeks is simple, 4 nightwave levels a week, 8 current levels, I'll max out in about 5....and there'll be nothing to earn and nothing new.  That'll be the time to punch out with 5 weapons not mastered (4 tenet and the Ambassador).  It's fun to think that after 31 mastery ranks it'll all end in apathy...and the attempt DE is making to fix this are minor number tweaks and getting everyone onto one platform so they can experience things together...hopefully including the bugs.

I have to chuckle here....because console and PC players are often at odds because PC is the buggiest platform with the earliest content launches.  It will be surreal to see how consoles react when the day one launch breaks as much content as is added.  I say this in the feedback thread for holokey changes, thinking of the railjack 3.0 system as a whole.  Boy, is it a buggy mess, and PC was the tester for this.  Seeing someone on a Wii stuck loading and unable to close the processes without a hard reset is...somehow making it more amusing.  

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23 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

I have to chuckle here....because console and PC players are often at odds because PC is the buggiest platform with the earliest content launches.  It will be surreal to see how consoles react when the day one launch breaks as much content as is added.  I say this in the feedback thread for holokey changes, thinking of the railjack 3.0 system as a whole.  Boy, is it a buggy mess, and PC was the tester for this.  Seeing someone on a Wii stuck loading and unable to close the processes without a hard reset is...somehow making it more amusing.  

Yeah, welcome in "on all platforms" thing.

29 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So...we've debunked the argument about void key drops, but what about void traces? 

If you mean I should use "nearly" guaranteed then yes.

33 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Why even propose the above?  Yeah, it's a hybrid RNG and guaranteed reward that is based upon engagement.  It's exactly what a competent company would want to stimulate engagement, but also make sure people don't burn out with bad RNG rolls.  Most assuredly it isn't going to be implemented.  

Yeah, I agree.  DE just doesn't do this sort of thing anymore.  I'm speaking hypothetically in a feedback thread, and it'll get buried under a mountain of people screaming about other related but tangential things and taking offense.  Whatever.  I'm burned out.  This system should get a real overhaul....but I'm not holding my breath.  This level of grind has managed to burn out partners....so why do I expect DE to do anything?  I already know that they are planning on this underwhelming garbage, and this feedback thread will be ignored.

They don't do "pity system". Like with Orphix Event. In the event we got shop where we can buy stuffs or those stuffs could be dropped by Orphix. Now it's just RNG.

35 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Sigh.  I wish DE cared anymore.  I wish I could care.  I'm about 5 weeks from logging off for a while...and maybe coming back.  The five weeks is simple, 4 nightwave levels a week, 8 current levels, I'll max out in about 5....and there'll be nothing to earn and nothing new.  That'll be the time to punch out with 5 weapons not mastered (4 tenet and the Ambassador).  It's fun to think that after 31 mastery ranks it'll all end in apathy...and the attempt DE is making to fix this are minor number tweaks and getting everyone onto one platform so they can experience things together...hopefully including the bugs.

Yeah... I'll probably do Nightwave, maybe void storms and that's all. All boring stuffs. At least we get 3 Energize.

37 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So...we've debunked the argument about void key drops, but what about void traces? 

You need to take into account few things:

- Relic acquisition -> random from Syndicates or some mission

- void traces -> as you explained

- getting uncommon/rare-> same as above

You may get enough Relics and Void traces so you can just run radiants. What if you don't have them? It's RNG on top of RNG. I don't want to calculate average number of runs/time needed for this but I think solo Radiants are worse than Holos (assuming 0.5x - 1.0x of stated drop chance 37%).

 

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Am 12.8.2021 um 10:36 schrieb TaricTheHealer:

I did 6 missions and got 36 holokeys i kid you not.

IF you are such a lucky guy then changes towards guaranteed drops or higher drop chances won't negatively impact you. Maybe you start to support the people with less luck instead...

People have shared their experience and the current system is burning out these players. A game should motivate players to play... not demotivate them non-stop.

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9 minutes ago, quxier said:

I wonder which one are still running.

The relic system, for example. Unless your definition of a "pity system" is another case of

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

selectively interpreting reality

either the relic system will have some, or what @master_of_destiny proposed is not a "pity system".

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42 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The relic system, for example. Unless your definition of a "pity system" is another case of

What I heard about this term is in case of bad RNG you are guaranteed to get certain item (e.g. after 10 runs you get an item OR you can buy it in the shop for some currency).

So I don't consider Relics as or having pity system because there is no guarantee that I will get certain item.

Edit:

I guess you could sell stuffs but:

- item may be unavaible

- item may be very expensive

So even it's "pity system" it's bad one, so I don't consider it as such.

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4 minutes ago, quxier said:

What I heard about this term is in case of bad RNG you are guaranteed to get certain item (e.g. after 10 runs you get an item OR you can buy it in the shop for some currency).

So I don't consider Relics as or having pity system because there is no guarantee that I will get certain item.

That lands us in option B:

42 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

what @master_of_destiny proposed is not a "pity system".

Because a constant drop rate of, for example, 1-3 Holokeys per objective is not "in case of bad RNG" - it's merely a guaranteed reward, detached from RNG in all but its amounts, just like the 6-30 Void Traces you get from acquiring 10 Reactants. And no, "guarantee to get certain item" by itself does not count as a "pity system", though feel free to argue that it does. That just makes the entirety of Warframe full of them.

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I misunderstood this Workshop and thought this was going live with the Prime Vault. Whoops. That was a bit disappointing to find out.

Since we're here, can I suggest maybe frontloading the Holokeys on downing Sister Candidates instead of when you slay the Sister? Kuva Lichlings have small quantities of Kuva, and its a nice bonus but definitely not an efficient farm. We could do the same with Holokeys here instead of having no comparable drop. Maybe even on hitting the Sister with the Parazon, too, so its a one to one comparable thing.

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4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, let me guarantee you a solution.  Let me also base this upon existing solutions present in the game.  Each side objective drops a guaranteed number of holokeys.  They also have a range.  This is a 1-3 quantity per side objective.  This means that on Venus where there is one side objective you earn between 1-3 keys, if you engage with railjack and do more.  This peaks in the Veil, where you're guaranteed 4 keys for doing the objectives, but can earn up to 12.  

Why is this a solution?  Well, side objectives are doing railjack, which is what DE wants.  Right now, the incentive is to bomb through a minimum of content and get that 37.5% roll before repeating as quickly as possible.  That's reinforcing to players that side objectives get ignored, and Railjack can languish.  This is trying to sell railjack, and giving us the worst it has to offer.  In short, stupid.

Likewise, why 1-3?  This means a good Venus run can outstrip the guaranteed Neptune run, because 3>1+1.  Well, this is your RNG.  3>2, but 3<<6.  Likewise, 4 is your minimum in the Veil, which is less than the 6 potential for Neptune, but if you weight the outcomes as well (50%, 30%, 20%) the large outcomes will make people disregard the bad impressions of a run with low rewards.

Finally, why secondary objectives?  Why do I want to force a minimum of 10 completed runs in the Veil to get a tenet weapon?  The goal here is to expose people to railjack, right?  The rewards then should be about engagement, and not RNG.  If you want to not engage with the content that's fine, just be warned that you'll be doing a lot more of it.  Likewise, if people discover stuff they like they should be rewarded for grinding it out.  You give players the option to engage, and highlight that engagement means rewards, they're likely to engage and discover something fun without even realize they're being dragged by the nose to a system that largely is still a content island.

I've been thinking about including an amount of Holokeys for doing the other objectives as well, so I think that would be pretty nice if DE were to implement it. Even if it was just 1-3 Holokeys for any / each single secondary objective in any of the Proxima regions I think that would still be an improvement toward getting them, hypothetically; Compared to the unfortunate situations where some haven't gotten them much at all.

 

Similarly, considering that you receive an amount of Kuva each time you Parazon a Lich (& Larvling), perhaps a Sister of Parvos (& Sister candidate) could drop 1 Holokey each time? I'm not the first to suggest it, but the thought crossed my mind awhile back when I first read the main post, and went through the thread. It may not be a very fast way to get keys, but giving some Holokeys for the objectives would still remain a more efficient way to go about it while allowing those who don't prefer to use the Railjack an alternative method to get keys for a time, until they succeed the Requiem sequence.

  • That being said, as I wrote this I did realize that those who choose the Sister-method for Keys could hypothetically keep failing the sequence on purpose in order to get more keys (Unless Keys stopped dropping on Lv5 onward), but the counter to it may be how slow those keys would come in compared to just doing Railjack side objectives, hypothetically. Since you'd have to keep doing missions for a period of time until they show up.

 

All in all, I do like the thought of adding more places to get Holokeys, and you laid out some good details on it. Hopefully it could be considered.

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50 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

And no, "guarantee to get certain item" by itself does not count as a "pity system", though feel free to argue that it does. That just makes the entirety of Warframe full of them.

Then what is it?

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On 2021-08-04 at 10:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Corrupted Holokey drop amounts have been increased in Void Storms! Void Storms in the Veil Proxima will now drop 10 (vs 6) to make the hardest content the most rewarding. The rest have all had their amounts increased by 1. 

Please make them guaranteed missions rewards so that at least one instance of RNG is completely eliminated. It is already total goddamn garbage to wait upto several weeks for a weapon you actually want to pop up. In a perfect situation, we should be able to choose the element while the game rolls the value between 25% and 60% bonus damage.

Also don't tie the rewards to void storms. Those missions give headache and migraines. to everyone.

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Is there any chance to add comma to damage number value for the playstation 

In this update/hot fix

 

Also despite the fix for people going to dojo for trade spawn inside rail jack its still happening, after supposed fixed

 

Any plan to change the kuva amount required to roll riven or amount collected

Rolling mechanics 

Restore % of kuva spent on riven rolled

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12 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

DE does know this, and they do it because it furthers their interests. Unfortunately for us, those interests only occasionally overlap with ours as players.

yes sorry I was being sarcastic as DE do it every time .. you're correct though DE dont have the same interests or even play the same game :)

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