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Dev Workshop: Corrupted Holokey Changes


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We don’t need a gauranteed drop for one second the drop rate is actually in a good spot and I agree with this change and if your still incessantly whining about drop rate maybe you should stop playing the missions with the lowest drop chances if you actually check the table they provide you’ll see that the highest rate of drop is what 12 percent and that’s actually pretty significant even more so than relic rare piece drops and since the majority of things in this game have significantly lower drop rates than this doing on average 10 missions really isn’t that bad and as de said the reason they decided to go with this route upon release is that they wanted to have people have a goal to work towards that would take time so those who are on don’t get grinded out from having no content hence stretch the content so to those of you that expect everything handed to you I say one thing this. Is an mmo it’s meant to have a grind if you can’t invest the time to farm you really shouldn’t be using your time to play an mmo

Edited by (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r
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On 2021-08-05 at 3:59 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno,

Our Sisters of Parvos Update launched earlier this month, and was quickly followed by TennoCon 2021. We Hotfixed a lot of essential things before we held our event, and we’ve had ample time to read feedback, review stats, and see how players are engaging with all things Proxima regions. The feedback has been great, and we intend on making a change to Corrupted Holokeys.  

When it comes to introducing new avenues for gear in Warframe, our intention is always striking a balance of recognizing all players ‘start from 0’ when it comes to new systems. In the case of Tenet Melee weapons and Corrupted Holokeys, there are two things in play - 4 day inventory rotations, and Corrupted Holokey acquisition. Because of the 4 day rotation, we agree that the Corrupted Holokey acquisition can be increased so players have an easier time earning them while they play, and also connect them more to the Sisters of Parvos.

Corrupted Holokey Changes: 

  • In the final Railjack Showdown node for a Sister of Parvos, each Sister will give each squad member 1 Corrupted Holokey at End-of-Mission whether you Vanquish or Convert them! This means a Squad of 4 can leave with 4 Corrupted Holokeys each on Showdown mission complete! 

  • Corrupted Holokey drop amounts have been increased in Void Storms! Void Storms in the Veil Proxima will now drop 10 (vs 6) to make the hardest content the most rewarding. The rest have all had their amounts increased by 1. 

 

See you in the next few weeks with these changes on all platforms, Tenno!

 

I see this changes is not today but a few weeks, looks another patch again

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On 2021-08-04 at 9:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

See you in the next few weeks with these changes on all platforms, Tenno!

Is it going to take few weeks just to do this fix? I don't get why we cannot get this "as soon possible". I may be wrong but for some time we have to wait for simple fixes.

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19 minutes ago, quxier said:

Is it going to take few weeks just to do this fix? I don't get why we cannot get this "as soon possible". I may be wrong but for some time we have to wait for simple fixes.

It’s because in order to add this it require a change to in game code which means for consoles that has to be put through very process and de reb also stated there will be other qol changes added at the same time which since it requires cert it most likely means buffs and possibly nerds among other drop rate changes to certain frames weapons among other possible stuff

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2 minutes ago, (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r said:

It’s because in order to add this it require a change to in game code which means for consoles that has to be put through very process and de reb also stated there will be other qol changes added at the same time which since it requires cert it most likely means buffs and possibly nerds among other drop rate changes to certain frames weapons among other possible stuff

PC doesn't have to wait for any of that. That's not a compelling reason why they couldn't have gotten it this week.

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On 2021-08-06 at 6:40 AM, master_of_destiny said:

Did you think this through?  I ask because if you hover over a node beyond earth it lists a required intrinsics level.  That's the barrier to entry.

 

Now, there is the opportunity for a new player to power rank one of the segments, and through taxis and random groups be able to access high level areas without having equipment.  That said, you haven't really defined what the issue is here.

 

Is the "duck tape" a function of someone not having multiple forma applied to the ship, and thus not having the capacity for a full complement of avionics?  Is the issue that they don't have fully upgraded side and primary guns?  Is the issue perhaps that they don't have a meta build?  Beyond the simple statement that "duck" is a brand and duct tape is the shiny silvery stuff people use to stick everything together, you've done a poor job of giving DE a reason to fix things when they've already got a grind cap on this content.

 

 

Now...let's sleuth a little.  You shouldn't be bemoaning the avionic situation....given the harness lets you use your own.  You shouldn't be bemoaning the side weaponry or primary weaponry...because even by going down tiers you lose almost nothing.  It's not exactly rocket science to see that guns with infinite ammo aren't really hurting for damage output.  What remains is the four ship based pieces of equipment; hull, shields, engine, and reactor.  They have the potential to be low tier and make the railjack easy to kill.  Of course, DE has a limited capacity for equipment, and requires you buy more slots.  This means that players are still incentivized to not build anything until they get the best thing...given that even with fusions you are blowing resources to build one and upgrade.  

So.  With that sleuthing we come to a cross roads.  DE has designed the system to be a real money sink, so you can buy equipment slots.  They then chose to make the access to areas based upon intrinsics...which require no standard level of railjack items to be built.  This means they have tacitly stated that building anything until you get the best things is stupid, and that because access is only based upon how much you've been able to grind there's no reason to spend the hours of grind getting materials and crafting intermediary equipment.

 

If I were to be rational, I'd say you already have your answer.  DE has designed the system with grind caps, and without regards to equipment.  They therefore believe that players are qualified to do content up to the level cap in a basic railjack.  This will be tempered not by improving the railjack, but by expanding player power through the bonuses offered by intrinsics.  You may not agree with this, but it's 100% in-line with Mastery Rank locks.  MR doesn't tell you if a person is good at the game, only that they've invested a lot of time into the grind.  If you'd like an example, I'm MR 31.  If tomorrow I was forced to play as Octavia I'd be absolutely crap at it.  Despite all the grind time, I have not mastered the spaghetti of systems crammed into Warframe.  

 

 

 

If you'd like my recommendation for change, then I'd be glad to offer it.  Link the access to areas to having crafted a specific piece of gear.  If this were, say a reactor, you'd be able to link it with lore to suggest that you needed more power around certain bodies to be able to function.  While this would not prevent people from blazing through the content, and crafting whatever dropped, it would give them pause to consider building and installing other things.  It'd also force them to engage with the valence system, and show them how to make a mark one and a blue print for a mark 2 form a stronger item.  This would demonstrate the value in expending those resources, and give us a reason to grind the levels rather than ignore them.

Of course, DE is dead set on this.  They've linked a miserable railjack grind (holokeys) to this...and the holokey rewards are core content melee weapons.  Once you see this, it's apparent that DE is going to ride Railjack into the ground.  Players will grind as required, people will hate it because the experience is akin to drinking bleach.  Experienced players are forced to bouy newbies, newbies get curb stomped and the mechanics remain obtuse, and all the while this becomes a whole new content island that will be rejected once the content is finished.  Oof.

 

Yes, I did. I've been thinking about this for about a month now. Intrinsics has nothing to do with the quality of your ship. I've even seen a Legendary player with a terrible Railjack. I think the one who hasn't thought this through is you.

 

Quote

Now, there is the opportunity for a new player to power rank one of the segments, and through taxis and random groups be able to access high level areas without having equipment.  That said, you haven't really defined what the issue is here.

At no point did I suggest barring PLAYERS from nodes. You don't need a Railjack to play Railjack nodes.

Quote

Is the "duck tape" a function of someone not having multiple forma applied to the ship...

 

I'm going to stop reading there. You don't put forma on your ship. You clearly have no idea how Railjack works. To be absolutely clear, this has nothing to do with Avionics or the Plexus (which is where you put Forma, but there really isn't a good reason to) and everything to do with the Railjack hardware.

 

I'm thinking perhaps the issue is that players (such as yourself) don't realize that the Railjack needs to be equipped with gear itself and that it's not just about the Plexus and Avionics.

 

I for one enjoy Railjack a lot... so long as I'm not patching hull breaches every 3 seconds (that is not hyperbole, that is something I've had to endure).

Edited by EiraRozen
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2 hours ago, (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r said:

and if your still incessantly whining about drop rate maybe you should stop playing the missions with the lowest drop chances if you actually check the table they provide you’ll see that the highest rate of drop is what 12 percent

Just had to point out it's actually 37.5% across all void storm proximas, only thing that changes is amount of keys, a basic wiki search would've told you that.

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I love how the fact that this workshop even exists is because Brozime absolutely trashed the system. He releases his video and not 6 hours later we have a workshop?

DE only makes changes it seems these days when it may effect their bottom dollar. And if big content creators start saying something is too grindy, people wont play.

And they said being acquired by Tencent wouldn't make it more grindy...

 

im-very-disappointed-by-you-but-not-surp

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Any eta on when this going to be implemented? (I'm assuming it's not yet, as i've vanquished and converted 2 sisters since this post solo).  Thanks in advance, because I've had literally zero luck on farming corrupted holo keys with 20+ attempts, soi stopped wasting my time and started pursuing things that aren't based on a random number generator that seems to have it for me lately ;)  Much like my several months of attempts at a 2nd khora BP... 

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It's a start. As others have said, having a key or two as a guaranteed drop from from void missions would also soften things a bit as that's basically the only reason people would be doing void storms at this point.

Most people dont mind slow progression so long as there is progression and not feeling like they're wasting time.

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On 2021-08-06 at 12:55 AM, sitfesz said:

Personally I don't know anyone who would say "goddamn DE" if they did a hotfix to change to the mentioned holokey drop.

Personally, I have no doubt in my mind, that you didn't ask a single person you know, so don't speak for them. 

In case you decide to ask them, also ask if they would say "goddamn DE" if they were forced to restart every hour or so for every fix (not just the good game changing ones), including minor ones(like a typo, minor graphical glitch, UI bugs, minor adjustments, etc).

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My advice is that I believe instead of increasing the number of loot per drop, how about a guarantee drop per veil missions? Holokeys are scattered across the system, but the the “hotspot” is located in Veil Proxima/ Veil Voidstorms, guaranteeing a reward of a Holokey up to 4 in a full squad per say. No where else except the Veil. It kinda brings an interesting lore to it too. The key problem is that people complain about getting sevagoths due to unforgiving RNG, when their target are the holokeys. While the Veil will gaurentee a holokey or 4 per voidstorm mission, it can also drop bonus holokeys, people would get a dopamine boost since they consider that they hit a “Jackpot” of holokeys. The veil holokey “bonus drop” can range up from 5-10 holokeys, while the gaurentee drop can be 1-4 holokeys within the Veil Voidstorm. 

Edited by GeoenerG
Some grammar adjustments
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I won't comment on sister dropping keys since it doesn't effect me.

 

Increase the quantity of keys looks good on the surface , and probably helps in someway , but still didn't changed it's RNG nature and the problem with it .

This problem is the same with all RNG base loot , from frames in old times to Arbitration arcanes and gears like Ambassador .

Some can get lucky and collect enough key in 20 minutes , while someone are bound to farm a whole week without good results .

And the uncertainty of rewards also wear down players patience and joy really quick , making them frustrated. It's like a marathon with no clear end .

 

I really like the reward structure of OP Orphix Venom , where player can make steady and visible progress if they just participate , and RNG just there to give some boost . This kind of RNG is way better since they actually gave player a sense of surprise , kind of like finding extra nuggets in your meal.

 

So please consider make the mission drop based amount of keys , while having the chance to get some more.

 

(Also apply this to most RNG reward if possible? Farms like Ambassador grind is probably worse then this...)

Edited by Bakahung
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I may be asking for too much but could you guys possibly look into changing the bonus roll refresh for tenet melee cause waiting 4 days for a possible chance at a roll you want is unfair to your players time. Maybe reduce the time to like 24 hours or just add a way for us to reroll the bonuses our selves.

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8 hours ago, PSYKOSIS101 said:

I love how the fact that this workshop even exists is because Brozime absolutely trashed the system. He releases his video and not 6 hours later we have a workshop?

DE only makes changes it seems these days when it may effect their bottom dollar. And if big content creators start saying something is too grindy, people wont play.

And they said being acquired by Tencent wouldn't make it more grindy...

 

im-very-disappointed-by-you-but-not-surp

guess who cried the most about melee being op and how they changed that

seems like DE only listens to their friends

Edited by addamrobin2
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9 hours ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Just had to point out it's actually 37.5% across all void storm proximas, only thing that changes is amount of keys, a basic wiki search would've told you that.

So higher than I thought that’s an extremely good drop rate and comparitively easy to obtain even with the buff so thank you for making my point even more valid

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vor 14 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r:

We don’t need a gauranteed drop for one second the drop rate is actually in a good spot and I agree with this change and if your still incessantly whining about drop rate maybe you should stop playing the missions with the lowest drop chances if you actually check the table they provide you’ll see that the highest rate of drop is what 12 percent and that’s actually pretty significant even more so than relic rare piece drops and since the majority of things in this game have significantly lower drop rates than this doing on average 10 missions really isn’t that bad and as de said the reason they decided to go with this route upon release is that they wanted to have people have a goal to work towards that would take time so those who are on don’t get grinded out from having no content hence stretch the content so to those of you that expect everything handed to you I say one thing this. Is an mmo it’s meant to have a grind if you can’t invest the time to farm you really shouldn’t be using your time to play an mmo

The drop chances are irrelevant when players have non-stop bad luck and spend days without even seeing a single key.

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On 2021-08-04 at 12:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Corrupted Holokey Changes: 

  • In the final Railjack Showdown node for a Sister of Parvos, each Sister will give each squad member 1 Corrupted Holokey at End-of-Mission whether you Vanquish or Convert them! This means a Squad of 4 can leave with 4 Corrupted Holokeys each on Showdown mission complete! 

  • Corrupted Holokey drop amounts have been increased in Void Storms! Void Storms in the Veil Proxima will now drop 10 (vs 6) to make the hardest content the most rewarding. The rest have all had their amounts increased by 1. 

Seems to have been decreased by 1 not increased.

Yesterday I was faring a Neo Survival and kept getting 3 keys instead of the normal 4 from Neo Storms.
I've only ben doing Neo Storms, they used to give 4 keys, and since the update they've only been given 3.

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Yeah, go on, DE, remove my comments again would you.  

Just saying for the second time that IT IS FAR BETTER TO PUT HOLOKEYS AS DROP FROM SPECTERS AT GRANUM VOID OR FROM CREWSHIP ON VOID STORM THAN DOING THE CURRENT SYSTEM.  

 

Reason why Granum drop is a better system:

1: Like it or not, if you're doing Sisters you'd enter Granum Void anyway. (Not going out of your way just to farm 1 resources)

2: You cannot endlessly farm Specters. Each tries will give you about 75-85 Specters (if you're using Mesa), and even if you put Holokeys as 1% chance drop on each Specter that cannot be boosted by resource booster/Smeeta buff like Void Traces, players would've farmed at least 20-30 times for a single Tenet weapon. Not to mention you'd need to get Coins from Treasurers.  

3: It is still lore friendly. Corrupted Holokeys originated from Parvos' ship, which IS in the Granum Void anyway.

 

Reason why Crewship drop is a better system:

1: Like it or not, you're gonna kill Crewships to complete the RJ mission anyway. (Same reason, not going out of your way to farm 1 resources)

2: Crewship is Limited Entity, meaning you only have so much to kill in one stage. That way you can't farm them unless you've restarted the stage; but to balance you'd need to put the dropchance on at least 25-30% per crewship to make it worthwhile. This is ON TOP of the Void Storm reward.

3: It makes sense per lore. Corpus and Grineer would definitely pick up those Holokeys for auction/research.

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5 hours ago, (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r said:

So higher than I thought that’s an extremely good drop rate and comparitively easy to obtain even with the buff so thank you for making my point even more valid

Not really, core issue still remains that the drop table is weighted towards the upper tier rewards because it's filled with so many potential drops.

If you'd looked at the actual drop tables you'd see that for yourself too.

Lorewise, apparently hundreds of thousands of keys are lost across the void, and we encounter a measly 6 after a good 10 mins or so, that's if you get the common reward, and there's no cap for how "unlucky" one can get, only that it gets more statistically unlikely to not get a drop, theoretically, one can go on playing void storms for an indefinite amount of time and never get a single key drop.

 

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You have taken the enjoyment from my Railjack Missions. After trying 6 missions and. Recieving 0 keys I have quit playing it. With the drop rate i should received some keys.  Until you fix the drop rate problem you, DE, can just keep your Tenet Melee Weaons!!!!

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Not really, core issue still remains that the drop table is weighted towards the upper tier rewards because it's filled with so many potential drops.

If you'd looked at the actual drop tables you'd see that for yourself too.

Lorewise, apparently hundreds of thousands of keys are lost across the void, and we encounter a measly 6 after a good 10 mins or so, that's if you get the common reward, and there's no cap for how "unlucky" one can get, only that it gets more statistically unlikely to not get a drop, theoretically, one can go on playing void storms for an indefinite amount of time and never get a single key drop.

 

 

You see, this is the problem.  

 

DE isn't proposing a fix to the 37.5% drop rate.  It's an entire mission, and at best we've got about a 1 in 3 chance of getting the rewards.  I'm sure that they're looking at the math of averages, and the extremes here.  Note, not the extremes that make it bad for players.

At 10 keys dropped, 37.5 percent of the time, the average per run reward is 3.75.  That's an average of 11 runs.

At 10 keys dropped, there's a chance you only need 4 runs.  That's 1.98%.  So 1 in about 50 people gets 40 keys in 4 runs.

At the average of 11 runs, the chance of never getting a single key is 0.62511 or 0.568%.

 

This means that you run 11 and get anywhere from 110 keys (0.002%) to 0 keys (0.568%).  The average player gets enough for one weapon, with about 6 in 1000 players getting literally nothing for all that time investment.  If there are truly millions of registered loosers, this represents literally thousands of players who spend hours grinding and get nothing for their troubles...especially when the drop tables are littered with one and done rewards.

 

 

I'm not proposing a fix.  I'm tired of doing DE's work, and then getting ignored.  What I will offer is that with the recent string of bad decisions relating to the veteran players, combined with the push to consolidate players to cross play when this was previously deemed impossible, and with this kind of tone deaf response of a workshop obviously made in response to several recent creators stating in video that this was an utterly borked grind I'm not seeing DE as being worth talking to anymore.  If I don't win the lottery, and have a random twitter posting that matches what the developers believe highlighted as the primary motivation to get a change I want, then it's talking to a brick wall.

 

Funny though.  Players are having issues with keys and Yareli.  Keys get a review a month later.  Yareli's still in the cold.  The funny part is that this year's post-tennocon distorted bliss seems to not even have lasted a month.  Maybe it's finally time?  Maybe DE will take 15 pages of feedback and significantly alter their plans?  I'm not holding my breath.

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