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Dev Workshop: Corrupted Holokey Changes


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On 2021-08-16 at 7:14 AM, _COY_ said:

I know its unpopular, but I have to say it: The drop rates are OK
Saturn skirmish missions can be rushed in 2-3minutes.
For a mission that long, the 4 holos at the end are OK, too.
I got 12-20 holos per hour this way.
There is much heavier grind in the game, compared to that.

All you need to do is optimize the mission and split the tasks between the players.
1 pilot only
2 front artillery only
3+4 slingshot to the objective and do the mission

The only problem here, is to find 3 others who know what to do.

-c0y
 

 

Been doing that since holokey release. Everyone is doing it because speed farm is the only viable method to make holokey farm bearable.

Basically you are acknowledging that holokey grind is awful so everyone has to resort this type of speed run, rather than trying to fix the whole RNG system.

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On 2021-08-04 at 3:27 PM, AntawnMary said:

Obviously you never did or did not spend much time on extermination missions (not the skirmish) and never had the loadout to do them.

Corpus exter gave me hundreds of holokeys.

So "4 very fast missions", with hk, is indeed conceivable.

You’re hilarious. I literally run with Baruuk, a proboscis cernos, nukor, and zaw with a full tier 3 ship and specialized crewmates. Nothing you’ve said changes the fact that the VEIL has lower drop rates than it should.

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Just ran 20 missions and got keys on only the 20th mission (and 22nd and ~25th). Ooofta rng hates me. Four different sectors... second run like this too. Only Ice Mines dropped them.

Can you reduce sevigoth and epitaph drops? Or can you put differing amount of keys in the table (like endo in other missions). The only reason I'm running these is keys, endo, and to level k.grattler (latter doesn't feel like its holding up in Veil btw). Everything else railjack is done. I'm ok w grinding the game but this feels worse than Destiny raids for armor in terms of time/progress. My 2c

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Please change the base rate of Holokeys in Void Storm missions to at least 1 guaranteed Holokey, with the chance being for additional ones. Even if I get no additional holokeys at all, that's still 160 missions to get 4 weapons. Surely that is at least somewhat fair.

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On 2021-08-16 at 10:14 AM, _COY_ said:

I know its unpopular, but I have to say it: The drop rates are OK
Saturn skirmish missions can be rushed in 2-3minutes.
For a mission that long, the 4 holos at the end are OK, too.
I got 12-20 holos per hour this way.
There is much heavier grind in the game, compared to that.

All you need to do is optimize the mission and split the tasks between the players.
1 pilot only
2 front artillery only
3+4 slingshot to the objective and do the mission

The only problem here, is to find 3 others who know what to do.

-c0y
 

 

So...I've read through this about a dozen times...and my response after waiting this long is that you must also like the drop for Harrow's Systems, right?  I mean, the drop rate there is only 11.28%,  but you've only got to get a single drop.  Given that this is about 1/3 as likely as a holokey drop, but of course you need only a single drop rather than 8 or more drops, the Harrow's systems blue print should be a breeze.

 

I say this with Bile in my mouth, and you'll hopefully understand why.

 

This example highlights that your "2-3 minute" mission grind is a joke.  I say that because back when tether could wipe anything and we had 5 forward artillery charges it was possible to wipe one of these missions in about five minutes...but now you're saying that you can do all of the fighters, all of the crewships, and complete the internal objective while collecting al of the required void traces within 3 minutes.  I call shenanigans.

I also view this as terrifyingly bad math.  12 holokeys an hour means that for 60 minutes you get 3 drops.  If that is to be believed, you're looking at a 1:3 drop rate, meaning 9 missions completed.  9*3=27....so either you're looking at an average of 6+ minutes per run or the 37.5% drop rate is inaccurate.

 

Of course, this is just basic math to check your anecdotal statements that is failing...but the real issue is your core premise.  If the drop rates were fine you'd not have to wait for a specific type of mission on a specific planet to get what you're looking for.  If the rewards were decent it'd be trivial to recommend that people go out and engage with railjack to earn keys without the huge caveat of what mission types suck the chrome out of stainless steel.

 

 

Of course...you could compare this to other grinds.  Yeah.  My go-to is the Braton Vandal being a 2.01% drop chance from ESO rotation C.  That sucks.  That anecdotally took me two months to get...and the weapon is mastery rank fodder for anyone capable of getting to rotation C by themselves....as rando groups almost never go that deep.

I could also cite the drop rate on things like Bite.  Yeah....a 0.0066% chance drop from feral kubrows and drahk.  That means that for every million of these enemies you slaughter on average you'll get 66 whole mods.  I have been playing for years, and in all that time and thousands upon thousands of enemies slaughtered (of this type) I've seen 2.  Yeah.

 

Of course, this is an exercise in rewarding DE with praise for not being absolute jerks.  By that logic, everything in this game shy of literal years of grind is something to be lauded...and that's silly.  

If you've got the time to waste grinding these, are willing to determine the most efficient method of earning, and are willing to force yourself through this content it's tolerable.  For most people, as defined by the requirement for this change, this rewards structure is inadequate and will not be engaged with.  As DE wants us to play all of their content, this is a lose-lose they need to rectify.  Telling them otherwise may be fine for you, but not everybody can plow 4+ hours into this game to maybe get enough items to get one weapon, with RNG stats, that then requires 5 forma, and has to be ground to peak level multiple times just to apply those forma, with the potential at being either not useful for a player's style, or otherwise not enticing.  Joy.

 

 

 

I preface these statements with "of course" because the fundamental premise is flawed.  Garbage in, garbage out.  It's meant to highlight why your statement is so frustrating, as you've given DE a free pass to give us a bad grind because previously they've given us a miserable insult.  Why is it that people act like this happening at a service industry job is worth stiffing someone on a tip, that they're getting a base wage reduction on "because of the tips," but when it's their video games it's fine?  Ahhh....that good old "at least this isn't a loot box" response.  Sigh.

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The proposed changes wont mean a thing if the Holokey Drops are so inconsistent. Wiki says they have a 37.5% drop rate tho i did 9 Void Storm runs in the last 48 hours , me and my teammates got ZERO keys after doing 5 Veil Proximas, 2 Pluto Proximas and 2 Saturn Proximas.

At this point might as well just scatter the Holokeys along the map as pickups like Syndicate Medallions and obtaining them will be worth more our time.

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I've been doing a lot of holo-key farming the past week, and so far If I get a good hour and 20 minutes to burn through a Veil exterminate, I can do about 11 or 12 runs (solo, so YMMV)

 

So far the most I've gotten in 11/12 runs is 4 holo-key drops (usually 3 holo-key rewards in the hour and a half span). which seems more like a 25-30% drop rate.

6 keys is not a bad number to get if you were getting them consistently every 1/3 tries, but perhaps there could be a way of increasing the odds of a drop by adding them to a bonus drop? I've gone 8 rounds with no holo-key drops, and THAT is the major issue here. Not necessarily the drop number, but the chance.

Getting 2 endo rewards and another sevagoth part is really underwhelming for the time investment in a railjack mission. At least the relics are usable parts at the very least for Ducats or formas,

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vor 16 Stunden schrieb FA22_RaptoR:

I've been doing a lot of holo-key farming the past week, and so far If I get a good hour and 20 minutes to burn through a Veil exterminate, I can do about 11 or 12 runs (solo, so YMMV)

 

So far the most I've gotten in 11/12 runs is 4 holo-key drops (usually 3 holo-key rewards in the hour and a half span). which seems more like a 25-30% drop rate.

6 keys is not a bad number to get if you were getting them consistently every 1/3 tries, but perhaps there could be a way of increasing the odds of a drop by adding them to a bonus drop? I've gone 8 rounds with no holo-key drops, and THAT is the major issue here. Not necessarily the drop number, but the chance.

Getting 2 endo rewards and another sevagoth part is really underwhelming for the time investment in a railjack mission. At least the relics are usable parts at the very least for Ducats or formas,

Agreed, the Endo reward is just terrible and I really start hating the Sevagoth parts I get quite consistently, more often than holokeys.

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Great so now that I've done all the Sisters and new Lichs, you will start rewarding holokeys for beating Sisters/Lichs. Cool. Cool.
Meanwhile since the Sisters content has dropped, I've managed to acquire a grand total of 8 holokeys. Yes, I got 6 of them today. This is going grrreat.

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Yeah, I'll admit, I did like 4 missions in the Railjack Void Fissure missions and didn't see a single holokey at all. Honestly, I'd rather go fight Steel Path missions because at least then there's some consistency for the drop of Steel Essence from the Acolytes. Here, it's either Endo and a Sevagoth part you get, or something else that you'll never use or need by that point. The harder missions should have the more useful look, and right now... Void Railjack missions just aren't cutting it.

Hell, at the very least, make each Void Fissure Railjack mission drop 1-2 keys for completing it... and reduce the amount of bonus keys in the "37.5%" by the same amount, and I wouldn't be so upset. At least then, I'd feel like my time isn't being wasted constantly. If I'm lucky, I get the full amount of keys I'd normally get 37.5% of the time, and if not... at least I'm making a little bit of progress and not wasting time.

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On 2021-08-17 at 5:47 PM, master_of_destiny said:

 

 

So....I ask this knowing the answer, but neither of you read the last hotfix notes did you?

I ask because they specifically called out that they had found some bugs in getting them to drop from the Sisters.  Thus, their "coming soon" became the usual "primed soon" response.

the voidstorm changes, not the sister drops

they don't have to be packaged together

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On 2021-08-20 at 4:12 AM, DarkQuill said:

Please change the base rate of Holokeys in Void Storm missions to at least 1 guaranteed Holokey, with the chance being for additional ones. Even if I get no additional holokeys at all, that's still 160 missions to get 4 weapons. Surely that is at least somewhat fair.

i like this idea 1 in the lower tiers and 2 in the higher tiers, chance to get the other 4-8

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14 hours ago, tomwork27 said:

the voidstorm changes, not the sister drops

they don't have to be packaged together

'

The team is still working on those to ensure multiplayer functionality doesn't have issues (came across a couple).

 

 

The point is that DE stated there were issues, holding this up.  They did not quantify sisters, or other changes.  

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On 2021-08-20 at 11:28 AM, master_of_destiny said:

This example highlights that your "2-3 minute" mission grind is a joke.  I say that because back when tether could wipe anything and we had 5 forward artillery charges it was possible to wipe one of these missions in about five minutes...but now you're saying that you can do all of the fighters, all of the crewships, and complete the internal objective while collecting al of the required void traces within 3 minutes.  I call shenanigans.

If you don't believe me, why don't you try to optimize your group and test it yourself?
Tether is useless now, use Rockets only!

I wrote how to do it, it is not that complicated in Saturn skirmish:
1 piloting, 1 in the artillery all the time - both don't leave their position!
(I recommend to use Lavos because of energy management to use battle avionics)
The other 2 jump out of air-lock and fly straight to the objective and clear the room.
The pilot fly to the objective after a minute to clear the outside nodes, while the other 2 stay inside

Our best time was 1:58 but most times somewhere between 2-3 minutes.
Though, the first 3 runs usually take half a minute longer, because my front artillery has only 3 shots in the beginning.
So I needed to port to the forge and back one time during the first few missions.

Give it a shot, you'll see it works

-c0y

 

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3 hours ago, _COY_ said:

If you don't believe me, why don't you try to optimize your group and test it yourself?
Tether is useless now, use Rockets only!

I wrote how to do it, it is not that complicated in Saturn skirmish:
1 piloting, 1 in the artillery all the time - both don't leave their position!
(I recommend to use Lavos because of energy management to use battle avionics)
The other 2 jump out of air-lock and fly straight to the objective and clear the room.
The pilot fly to the objective after a minute to clear the outside nodes, while the other 2 stay inside

Our best time was 1:58 but most times somewhere between 2-3 minutes.
Though, the first 3 runs usually take half a minute longer, because my front artillery has only 3 shots in the beginning.
So I needed to port to the forge and back one time during the first few missions.

Give it a shot, you'll see it works

-c0y

 

 

I don't need to believe you or not believe you.  It's kind of funny that you should tackle this as a belief thing.  It's also fundamentally wrong-headed.

 

If the drop rate is 37.5%, and you round a bit, that's about one drop every 3 runs.  You reported a 12-20 per hour reward rate.  That's trivial to do the math with....because 12/4 = 3.  3*3=9.  You are thus stating that you are completing 9 runs in 60 minutes.  None of this is about belief, it's about hard math.

 

Now, the optimization bit is also fundamentally wrongheaded.  If you did run a mission every three minutes....which I will give you as a basic ship destruction and exterminate, you'd be running at 20 runs per hour.  OK....what's the reward rate then?  Well, that's also trivial math.  4/20 = 1/5 = 20%.  Hmmm....so you're saying the effective reward rate is 20% instead of the 37.5% advertised.  That doesn't jibe.

 

Well, maybe instead of this you want to claim an edge case.  Maybe you're looking at 20 runs in an hour...and you can earn between 0 and 80 corrupted holokeys.  Of course, your average is still listed as between 12 and 20...so you're at less than 25% of the potential...which also indicates that your math is either terrible or you've not reported things out correctly.

 

 

 

Why have I run down every potential, when at the end of the day I could have just called shenanigans on your numbers?  Why also am I not compelled to "try it myself."  Well....when every single attempt to run the numbers is driving me to either a substantially lower drop rate than advertised, or absolutely terrible math, and my anecdotal experience tells me that this is not possible with even basic missions then I've got to question the provided premises.  Considering I got to rank 10 on all five of the intrinsics, my experience in the systems is non-trivial.  Considering I've got multiple Sevagoths, Nautilus, and still haven't earned a Tenet melee (full disclosure, because the grind sucks it's not being pursued) my experience is non-trivial.

Now...let's tally this up.  Your drop rates do not match with the advertised in any meaningful way.  Your times are trivial to cite as either fabricated, or extremely optimistic.  Your premise is to have a super dedicated grind group...when the first step of each mission is to spend the 30-60 seconds of simply getting near a corpus pillar to know what the objectives are...and then completing them and completing your void storm objective in the remaining 30 to 120 second to have a total 2-3 minute window is...baffling.  Despite this, the advice of "you should spend your time to prove me wrong by grinding this" is the retort.

 

 

Let me do this colorfully, and to the extreme.  I do not have to know how it will feel to not stick my hand into a blender.  I know that the blender is capable of liquefying meat.  I know my hand is made out of meat.  Thus, hand in blender is stupid.  You're telling me that everything is fine, sitting there with a mangled mass of meat at the end of a stump...because you're fine with it.  I pity that you've so little respect for yourself, but that's not my problem to fix.  Mine is to petition the blender maker to restrict the speed of the blades, so that I can extricate my hand before it gets mangled.  That's the goal here...  Grind, and the blender, is not inherently bad.  What is bad is when things become a complete toss-up as to whether they're rewarding for how much effort is put in...especially when your time is at a premium...  If you have little value for your time that's fine....but if that's the case I recommend you go and farm the mod Bite...

 

Once you've got about 10 of those, I'll listen.  Otherwise, what you've demonstrated here is not "fine."  You've adequately demonstrated cognitive dissociation with reality.  Being crass, it's almost Stockholm's syndrome.

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48 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

If the drop rate is 37.5%, and you round a bit, that's about one drop every 3 runs.  You reported a 12-20 per hour reward rate.  That's trivial to do the math with....because 12/4 = 3.  3*3=9.  You are thus stating that you are completing 9 runs in 60 minutes.  None of this is about belief, it's about hard math.

This discussion here is about the odds of these specific holos and how hard/easy they are obtainable.
I got 12-20/hour but I don't know exactly how much runs I did, we had bio breaks in between, switched teams.

You calculate the numbers and possibilities in a pure RNG game, but this is not how it works.
If you calculate, than the percentage must be calculated by ALL runs from ALL Tenno on this mission, over a longer period of time.
You can run this mission 100+ times without getting holos, this is by design.
This design is exactly the same with all other farms in this game to keep you busy and/or spend plat.
I am OK with that, otherwise I wouldn't play this game for that long.

I understand RNG can be annoying sometimes, especially because the TENET melee weapons are the only ones, you cannot buy for plat.
All I said is that it worked for me to get a good amount of holos per hour, if you do it the way I described.
I was happy with the result and simply shared my unpopular opinion.

-c0y

 

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I'm astonished that changing a couple numbers in the reward tables takes so damn long. Was the rewards person finally fired and now there is no one that can put the final signature under such an important reward change?

Edited by 60framespersecond
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4 hours ago, 60framespersecond said:

I'm astonished that changing a couple numbers in the reward tables takes so damn long. Was the rewards person finally fired and now there is no one that can put the final signature under such an important reward change?

I mean, it's taking them even longer to acknowledge that Yareli needs moddable damage reduction, so you're probably on to something there.

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6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I mean, it's taking them even longer to acknowledge that Yareli needs moddable damage reduction, so you're probably on to something there.

If I get changes right she doesn't need modable damage reduction. It's like Xaku - Void-status/Grasp-of-Lol. Well... not bonus evasion from Carnis set (cannot equip melee on Merulina).

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3 hours ago, quxier said:

If I get changes right she doesn't need modable damage reduction. It's like Xaku - Void-status/Grasp-of-Lol. Well... not bonus evasion from Carnis set (cannot equip melee on Merulina).

Yeah sure, they could just set her damage reduction to something flat in the 90-100% range, comparable to Warding Halo or Iron Skin. In either case, 75% unmoddable is way too little.

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8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

75% unmoddable is way too little.

It's not. Consider other sources of evasion/damage reduction:

- from infested foxes

- rolling & rolling guard

And probably some another one that I've forgotten.

Of course you may not like some stuffs (I hate lots of companions that are not Carrier and that's includes foxes). However from their perspective you can achieve something close to 100%..

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11 minutes ago, quxier said:

It's not. Consider other sources of evasion/damage reduction:

- from infested foxes

- rolling & rolling guard

And probably some another one that I've forgotten.

Of course you may not like some stuffs (I hate lots of companions that are not Carrier and that's includes foxes). However from their perspective you can achieve something close to 100%..

The thing with Warframe enemies is that in higher levels, they get strong enough to one-shot you in higher levels (unless you're abusing shield gating). Evasion doesn't guarantee any safety, it just gives you a chance to not get one-shot. As for damage reduction, sure, on paper it might seem enough when you just look at the numbers. Merulina + full Adaptation means you only take 2.5% of the damage. "See, that's not a lot", I hear someone think. Except now we consider Warding Halo + full Adaptation, or Shatter Shield + full Adaptation: 1% and 0.5% of the damage taken, respectively. With Merulina, Yareli takes 250% the damage Nezha takes with Warding Halo, and 500% the damage Mesa takes with Shatter Shield. Put in another way, the damage reduction of Merulina is only 2/5ths as good as Warding Halo, and 1/5th as good as Shatter Shield. Looking at the numbers, it's clear as day that 75% unmoddable damage reduction is indeed way too little.

tl;dr: It is.

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25 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The thing with Warframe enemies is that in higher levels, they get strong enough to one-shot you in higher levels (unless you're abusing shield gating). Evasion doesn't guarantee any safety, it just gives you a chance to not get one-shot. As for damage reduction, sure, on paper it might seem enough when you just look at the numbers. Merulina + full Adaptation means you only take 2.5% of the damage. "See, that's not a lot", I hear someone think. Except now we consider Warding Halo + full Adaptation, or Shatter Shield + full Adaptation: 1% and 0.5% of the damage taken, respectively. With Merulina, Yareli takes 250% the damage Nezha takes with Warding Halo, and 500% the damage Mesa takes with Shatter Shield. Put in another way, the damage reduction of Merulina is only 2/5ths as good as Warding Halo, and 1/5th as good as Shatter Shield. Looking at the numbers, it's clear as day that 75% unmoddable damage reduction is indeed way too little.

tl;dr: It is.

Both abilities requires 75 energy VS Merulina's 25. You have to take that into account ass well.

While evasion won't guarantee you safety it's very good. But you need to make it very high.

 

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