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Dev Workshop: Corrupted Holokey Changes


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5 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

No, it was a good direction a month ago. Now it's just too little too late.

This is going to be the way of the future for Warframe.  Crossplay will reduce DE's agility, leading to longer periods of broken/poorly balanced content before updates can be pushed out, at least if the current state of QA remains.

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On 2021-09-05 at 3:22 AM, master_of_destiny said:

Now....why take umbrage with your point?  "The feels" is not an argument. 

"The feels" is in fact an argument when your game risks losing players because they don't like "the feels". As long as "the feels" are awful, a good number of players won't be touching that grind with a 10ft pole, and if said "the feels" start showing up in too many parts of the game, then the game will become less fun (which is one of many "the feels") and players will ditch. Example of "the feels" in action:

On 2021-09-05 at 3:22 AM, master_of_destiny said:

Then again, DE had about 18 pages of this before they promptly ignored all of it....because.  F it.  This is talking to a company that actively hates me.  I hope the cross play explodes.

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18 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

If you've actually managed to read, thanks.  TL;DR.  I agree that holokey drop rates need review, but not with presenting that argument as an appeal to emotion.  I especially don't agree with an appeal to emotion when it comes to DE.  

TL;DR

I wonder why you people still even argue. DE will just increase Holos by 1 or 4 (on last RJ) and they will give every player (some RJ requirements... I don't remember details) 40 Holos. Unless I've seen some post by them.

Yeah, 40 free holos were joke... but would be nice.

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2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You know, it's amazing that so many people can put together words in a string, add punctuation, and make good quotations.  That's not the amazing part though.  The amazing part is that they can do this and still not understand basic facts.

You seem to think you've cited an inconsistency in my argument....but you've managed to miss the forest for all those trees.  Kinda pesky, isn't it?

Let me short this...because you seem to not understand how a person could have criticism from emotional argumentation, but still somehow agree with the premise.  

You know, it's amazing that you can open with such snide comments and still be wrong.

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

1) When you argue with emotion, it doesn't require facts.  It also doesn't spring from them.  An argument borne from nothing is worth nothing.

Except when the survival of your game to a large part depends on said emotions remaining mostly positive. This argument of yours is pure rhetoric and is not grounded in the reality of the situation.

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

2) If I agree with your premise, but not your core assertions, I don't have to lick your boots.  This is largely a permutation of Godwin's law...where inappropriately equating things destroys arguments.  

Whether or not you agree with my assertions doesn't change their truth value. You're too stuck in "Internet argument" mode to actually study the facts of the matter.

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

3) If I spend hundreds of sentences demonstrating the mathematics as to why a thing is not acceptable, it has infinitely more weight than a single anecdotal experience.  This is not up for debate, as given RNG there is always a winner and a loser out there...and poling both does not demonstrate the system's function.

Nice strawmanning, there. It's not a matter of a single anecdotal experience, but of wide range of common anecdotal experiences. It's the difference between 0.00001% of the playerbase having a bad experience, and, say, 35% having a bad experience. Just because there's always a winner and a loser doesn't mean that the distribution thereof is irrelevant.

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

4) DE has the tendency to ignore all problems until there's a catastrophic event.  Please note, this is something they must respond to.  Case in point, day one players were complaining about drop rates day one.  They had to respond to this when their marketing arm, youtubers, came out in several videos and stated "the grind sucks."  This is a matter of people who have a literal financial stake in playing the game deciding that it isn't worth it.  It's almost like the passionate frustration from the players didn't matter until DE saw a bunch of their most watched streamers state that the system sucked.  Hmmm....

In other words, DE became aware of there being a strong voice in the community regarding bad "feels", and thus they "had to respond".

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

"The feels" is in fact an argument when your game risks losing players because they don't like "the feels". As long as "the feels" are awful, a good number of players won't be touching that grind with a 10ft pole, and if said "the feels" start showing up in too many parts of the game, then the game will become less fun (which is one of many "the feels") and players will ditch.

Thanks for giving me that bootlicking you mentioned.

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

5) Let me go political for just a moment.  I support artists making money off of their art...but SOPA was a thing I didn't support.  The Stop Online Piracy Act should have been a slam dunk, right?  Well, no.  Names don't mean anything.  Case in point, this feedback thread about changes.  Both have names that people would logically assume to be good.  Both are also a word soup hiding their real intention.  DE had a change in mind, and ignored feedback.  SOPA was about piracy less as a goal and more as a platform so that their true goals might not be assailed under the guise of good.  It's almost like reading the fine print is necessary to understand a nuanced point.  Maybe a nuanced point, like "I agree with your endgame but the way you've presented the argument allows its deconstruction so easily that the opposing view couldn't have constructed a better strawman to tear apart.It's almost like that's my point.

Considering you're already strawmanned the argument presented and think it to be so complete that no better could be made, it only goes to show that your whole point is woefully off-base.

3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

6) Let me close on a really simple point, when you start arguing emotions you lost.  That is not a point for debate, it's an axiom to live by.  Let me be blunt, while building a case for Godwin's law.  The one functional absolute evil within living human memory, and present inside text books (seriously, African dictators don't make it there but they are truly evil in so many cases) is Nazi Germany.  It was ruled by a political party that did unspeakable things.  The decision, under Godwin's law, to refer to someone with that moniker is meant to attack their character...but it's pyrrhic victory.  You killed the conversation, and demonstrated that your side has no argument...while winning the argument for those who agree with you because you "spoke truth" to the opposition.  That's....not a response which can build anything.  While it's an insanely specific and extreme version of arguing emotions rather than logic, it's the same irrational response that I implore those arguing on my side not to make.  By making it, you damage your own credibility...and that's a shame.  Maybe I hold to an unreasonable standard here, but if my only response to opposition is to cite emotions, then I don't have a point.  I need to rationalize the emotion, and understand where it came from.  That's the only way I can ever argue a point, because anything short of understanding the emotional root leaves my point open to being stripped bare by simple facts...and that's just not acceptable.

You speak of understanding where the emotions come from, but fail to see that in matters such as these, it is of equal value to understand what said emotions may, or possibly will, result in. While I could certainly take a chapter from your book and stretch this simple fact to a paragraph or more, and likewise doing it in a way that does not contribute any meaningful information although its broad and extravagant vocabulary would give the illusions of such, I see little point in humoring such an unnecessary exercise, save for, of course, for the simple joy that comes with making apparent the underlying childishness of that practice and thus possibly earn myself some ultimately valueless Internet currency - not the least seen so in proportion to the additional seconds it would take one to put the excessive characters down on virtual paper, so to say - from whatever poor soul would take their time to actually read said drivel in its entirety, which is precisely the reason for why I shall here imitate your habit. There are certainly many fallacious tools to employ for those who seek to win an argument they otherwise couldn't, and I would lie if I said that parody is not one of them, but I vaguely recall that spouting less than tangentially related sentences one after another in order to try and confuse or position oneself as a knowledgeable authority by means of word count alone is certainly one of those strategies that may be used for said goals. As such, know that rhetoric is the art of persuasion and thus a part of debate that builds upon emotions rather than facts, and thus I suggest that if you truly seek to live by that axiom you mentioned, you ought to tune down on that rhetoric of yours, lest you be branded a hypocrite. Though, as said, in this very case, the consequences the emotions of the playerbase may bear is of importance to the topic at hand, and thus those emotions must be taken into account through the lens of the vast majority of players. Should this group be displeased enough, merely an emotion as it might be, then that will result in harm to the factual situation of the game itself.

Or, in short, as you've already pointed out yourself, emotions do matter when there's enough of them that it can **** over your game.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)RATHURUE said:

Maybe you guys can take this personal fight somewhere else? This is STILL about holokey changes, DE listening to feedback or not.

Not trying to be rude on you or against them, but put them on ignore list.

This is how some users behave and nothing will change that, on ignore list those lengthy endless paragraphs about an opinion that could be done in 2 sentences won't appear anymore when you enter on the thread again, only the message "You've chosen to ignore content by <username>". 

Don't try to reason, they won't listen.

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Literally the description

"A corrupted decryption key dating back to the founding of the city of Corposium. Millions of these Holokeys were lost to the Void when Parvos Granum's flagship was bombed. Strongly desired by Ergo Glast."

20 void storm runs = 0 keys

what a joke

 

 

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2 hours ago, addamrobin2 said:

Literally the description

"A corrupted decryption key dating back to the founding of the city of Corposium. Millions of these Holokeys were lost to the Void when Parvos Granum's flagship was bombed. Strongly desired by Ergo Glast."

20 void storm runs = 0 keys

what a joke

Assuming that lot of players do void storms (even base one) then Millions means nothing. There are millions of players. It's like few Holos per player.

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10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So...let me summarize your entire argument.  If people get emotional and leave the game dies.

So, right off the bat, you make yet another strawman of my argument, and then proceed to go on a 1092 word rant about it. With quite the frustrated tone, too. Remember this bit?

20 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me close on a really simple point, when you start arguing emotions you lost.  That is not a point for debate, it's an axiom to live by.

Maybe take a page from your own book and try to be calm before launching into an essay of an off-the-mark reply? As said, what you state as a summary of this argument of mine - which isn't even my entire argument, mind you - is awfully wrong. Were I to edit your summary, I would add in the one key word you're missing, whose presence is of utmost importance. I would likewise need to correct the blatant strawman of that last word, as I merely said it would "**** over your game".

10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

If enough people get emotional and leave the game gets **** over.

The state of Corrupted Holokeys alone isn't going to end the game. The state of Yareli alone isn't going to end the game. The state of various Railjack bits lone isn't going to end the game. The abandon of old open world maps alone isn't going to end the game. The state of [insert warframe/weapon in need of buffs/rework here] alone isn't going to end the game. Et cetera. Despite people getting emotional over various ones of them.

A continued accumulation of such individually, relatively small flaws, however, is eventually going to reach a tipping point for enough people that the leave the game in such numbers that it will **** over it. In your personal anecdote, that tipping point was Archwing plus Conclave. For me, it will be Yareli in combination with a continued lack of reworks post New War, hastened if Caliban ends up being undertuned as well. For someone else, it will be something else. In summary:

Quote

With enough flaws, enough people will find a combination that hits their emotional tipping point and leave that it affects the game. Thus, it is of importance to work to keep the number (and severity) of these flaws to what minumum one's work force allows.

That is the summary of this particular argument of mine, not my entire argument. Looking forward to see you misrepresent it yet again.

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  • Corrupted Holokey drop amounts have been increased in Void Storms! Void Storms in the Veil Proxima will now drop 10 (vs 6) to make the hardest content the most rewarding. The rest have all had their amounts increased by 1. 

 

:facepalm:

If I could pop off a "What we have here, is a failure to communicate" meme, I would. Seriously DE, it's Drop Chance , not Drop Quantity. 

How difficult is it for you to comprehend that?

You know what? Because it will be entertaining ( and you folks are obviously entertained after so much feedback, that you went the complete opposite route), I think I'll watch a Youtube vid or 3 on making meme's, find a pic from the Gunny from Full Metal Jacket, and have fun creating stuff. At least it will give me something to do while you fix a buggy launch, controller issues, and all other problems that continuously happens when you launch content.

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52 minutes ago, Old_Fogie said:

Seriously DE, it's Drop Chance , not Drop Quantity. 

How difficult is it for you to comprehend that?

Apparently, quite. Imagine if the Acolytes didn't drop 2 SE 100% of the time, but instead 300 0.5% of the time. The majority of users (about 52.8%) would still get 300 SE in 150 runs, but it would be absolute torture for all but the lucky, and even worse for the unlucky - 460+ runs for those in the unluckiest 10th of players. That's the problem with Holokey drop chance taken to the extreme. The higher the drop chance, the more balanced the experience becomes, with a guaranteed drop being complete balance. A guaranteed drop of X plus/minus 4 would probably give the best experience, with X and prices adjusted as needed for desired minimum and maximum farm time.

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Just tried farming holokeys again.

I give up. It doesn't matter if the quantity is increased to 25 per drop if it never seems to drop.

This is particularly discouraging because of much time adds up when you consider what it takes to get the weapons to +60 and the element you want.

I guess I'll just have to live without the Tenet melee weapons. I'm not bothering ever again as long as the drop chance and lack of duplicate protection for sevatrash remain as they are.

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Just ran some Axi Veil void storms on PC. Also got 6 corrupted holokeys, like the guy above me. I also got a bunch of Neo relics. 

6 keys and Neos aren't supposed to be in the Axi Veil void storm pool. Has anybody else noticed this yet? Has anyone played a void storm since the update? 

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Hi, I would like to give some feedback based on my own in game experience.

I've tried to farm some holokeys before the changes by doing some Void Storm mission on Veil Proxima and even thogh I could get some (37,5% is not that bad), only 6 Holokeys each time it dropped was not enough.

After the changes, I got 80 Holokeys in just one day. So, for me, it was a very good change. Drop chance is really not bad at all. I think the problem farming Holokey (and every other item on Railjack missions) is the time you spend doing the mission itself : it's much longer than ordinary missions, but even though it's longer, I really think it was a very nice change and I don't have any farming problem anymore.

Thanks DE. 👍

Edited by (NSW)AegisFifi
Orthographic correction
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11 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Hi, I would like to give some feedback based on my own in game experience.

I've tried to farm some holokeys before the changes by doing some Void Storm mission on Veil Proxima and even thogh I could get some (37,5% is not that bad), only 6 Holokeys each time it dropped was not enough.

After the changes, I got 80 Holokeys in just one day. So, for me, it was a very good change. Drop chance is really not bad at all. I think the problem farming Holokey (and every other item on Railjack missions) is the time you spend doing the mission itself : it's much longer than ordinary missions, but even though it's longer, I really think it was a very nice change and I don't have any farming problem anymore.

Thanks DE. 👍

Just because you are lucky doesnt mean everyone is, I am around 16 runs in and didnt drop a SINGLE holokey from void storms......

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11 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Hi, I would like to give some feedback based on my own in game experience.

I've tried to farm some holokeys before the changes by doing some Void Storm mission on Veil Proxima and even thogh I could get some (37,5% is not that bad), only 6 Holokeys each time it dropped was not enough.

After the changes, I got 80 Holokeys in just one day. So, for me, it was a very good change. Drop chance is really not bad at all. I think the problem farming Holokey (and every other item on Railjack missions) is the time you spend doing the mission itself : it's much longer than ordinary missions, but even though it's longer, I really think it was a very nice change and I don't have any farming problem anymore.

Thanks DE. 👍

Even post-changes I've run a total of around 50 or so Void Storms, I have 16 Holokeys at last count. RNG is quite clearly a factor in both of our cases but you are well within the minority with luck such as that.

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il y a 41 minutes, iPathos a dit :

Even post-changes I've run a total of around 50 or so Void Storms, I have 16 Holokeys at last count. RNG is quite clearly a factor in both of our cases but you are well within the minority with luck such as that.

16 holokeys at 50 void storm missions ? I can barely belive that.

Anyway, 16 means that you are not doing Veil Proxima Void Storms, that gives you 10 holokeys each time it drops.

The great change DE made consists on a bigger amount of holokeys dropping on Veil Proxima Void Storm missions. Not a surprise one cannot get more holokeys than before, if he's not making the good missions for it.

Edited by (NSW)AegisFifi
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10 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

16 holokeys at 50 void storm missions ? I can barely belive that.

Anyway, 16 means that you are not doing Veil Proxima Void Storms, that gives you 10 holokeys each time it drops.

The great change DE made consists on a bigger amount of holokeys dropping on Veil Proxima Void Storm missions. Not a surprise one cannot get more holokeys than before, if he's not making the good missions for it.

Believe it or not, that's how many I have ever gotten since their introduction. I alternated between regions because I got tired of the exact same thing with literally no return - and I have gotten none from Veil Proxima post-update anyhow so the quantity boost has made no difference in my situation.

Burnout is a thing and failure to get something with a drop rate that high expedites that immensely, so no need for the snarky overview.

Edited by iPathos
Used the incorrect word for what I meant.
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il y a une heure, Culaio a dit :

Just because you are lucky doesnt mean everyone is, I am around 16 runs in and didnt drop a SINGLE holokey from void storms......

I'm not really lucky, it's just the way the game works. Many friends and clan mates get as much holokeys as me.

I'm sorry, but à 37,5% drop chance is not bad at all and you should have got at least one holokey drop. Perhaps there is a glitch.

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