Dev Workshop: Corrupted Holokey Changes

[AegidiusF]

il y a 6 minutes, iPathos a dit :

You missed the part where I said I'd been running Veil post-changes. The number of holokeys I have hasn't changed.

I didn't missed it. You did some Veil Proxima and you got none. I did only Veil Proxima and I got 80.

That's the difference.

[iPathos]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I didn't missed it. You did some Veil Proxima and you got none. I did only Veil Proxima and I got 80.

That's the difference.

Clearly it didn't come across with enough meaning. I've done at the very least 17 runs since the update dropped with increased quantities, with all but two of those runs being in the Veil. It's not for lack of effort, it's simply bad luck - but that doesn't make me like the situation any better.

Also you either misunderstood what I meant in the post above or it didn't translate very well, my issue is nothing to do with difficulty or effort required - I put in almost the same effort in Earth Proxima as I do in Veil Proxima because I have spent the time to kit out my Railjack, crew and loadout. That doesn't at all change the fact that the same thing gets boring to do over and over without a shred of tangible reward afterwards. Yes, the Storms rotate - they still remain the exact same for longer than I and others choose to bear. There is no underlying system which decides to give me Holokeys if I run something other than Veil Proxima, my luck is just as bad regardless.

I say again; burnout is real and this only serves to make it worse, faster.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 8 heures, iPathos a dit :

Clearly it didn't come across with enough meaning. I've done at the very least 17 runs since the update dropped with increased quantities, with all but two of those runs being in the Veil. It's not for lack of effort, it's simply bad luck - but that doesn't make me like the situation any better.

Also you either misunderstood what I meant in the post above or it didn't translate very well, my issue is nothing to do with difficulty or effort required - I put in almost the same effort in Earth Proxima as I do in Veil Proxima because I have spent the time to kit out my Railjack, crew and loadout. That doesn't at all change the fact that the same thing gets boring to do over and over without a shred of tangible reward afterwards. Yes, the Storms rotate - they still remain the exact same for longer than I and others choose to bear. There is no underlying system which decides to give me Holokeys if I run something other than Veil Proxima, my luck is just as bad regardless.

I say again; burnout is real and this only serves to make it worse, faster.

I really undersdtand your point, belive me.

i was not talking about your personal effort, but about the effort  Railjack Missions demand to every player. It's intrinsic to this kind of mission, which makes the fact of making it over and over much more boring than normal missions. If you have tried to farm Bullet Dance mod, or any other rare item, you know that you'll have to do certain missions a lot of times over and over again, but, as they are much faster to finish, it's not as horrible as Railjack missions farm.

Statistics don't lie. If there is a 37,5% of drop chance, you'll get it for sure. I got it, and many others too. Just don't make an obsession on it.

[DoomFruit]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Statistics don't lie. If there is a 37,5% of drop chance, you'll get it for sure. I got it, and many others too. Just don't make an obsession on it.

Statistics don't lie, but you're reading them wrong. Getting something for sure is a 100% drop chance. That is literally what it means - that 100% of the time, you get it. 35% drop chance means that 65% of the time, you get nothing. Each try is independent, so you have the exact same chance of getting nothing the next time around.

Someone posted in another thread a very good analogy - how would you like it if instead of getting paid normally each month, you have a 25% chance of getting 5x your salary and a 75% chance of getting nothing? That's the problem here.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Statistics don't lie. If there is a 37,5% of drop chance, you'll get it for sure. I got it, and many others too. Just don't make an obsession on it.

Statistics don't lie but it's useless with just % chances.

Why? Take Holos. Let's simplify it from ~37 to 30% for simplicity.

Runs from 1 to 70 user gets 0 holos. Run from 71 to 100 user get Holos.

Another user: every ~3rd mission gets holo.

 

Both are, more or less, same "statistic". However user have to run 70 runs without single Holo. From gamer's perspective its HORRIBLE. From statistics' perspective it's ok.

 

There are probably other "stuffs" from statistics that describe this things better. However using only % chance is not enough.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 2 heures, DoomFruit a dit :

Statistics don't lie, but you're reading them wrong. Getting something for sure is a 100% drop chance. That is literally what it means - that 100% of the time, you get it. 35% drop chance means that 65% of the time, you get nothing. Each try is independent, so you have the exact same chance of getting nothing the next time around.

It's true that you have the same drop chance each round, but the more you try the more your chance to have at least one drop will be increased, so I'm not reading them wrong, it's just the way it works. 

Everyone who's been playing Warframe for a long time knows that very well.

And the analogy with salary is very bad. It's not a work you're doing to be paid for, It's a game with chances to win. It's much more like a casino.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 53 minutes, quxier a dit :

Statistics don't lie but it's useless with just % chances.

Why? Take Holos. Let's simplify it from ~37 to 30% for simplicity.

Runs from 1 to 70 user gets 0 holos. Run from 71 to 100 user get Holos.

Another user: every ~3rd mission gets holo.

 

Both are, more or less, same "statistic". However user have to run 70 runs without single Holo. From gamer's perspective its HORRIBLE. From statistics' perspective it's ok.

 

There are probably other "stuffs" from statistics that describe this things better. However using only % chance is not enough.

Sorry, but this isn't the way it works. Every run you do increases the chance to get at least one time the drop.

Just think about the way relics work. If you're on a squad and everybody puts the same relic, even though each relic gives you the same drop chance, the four together give you a higher chance to have at least once of each drop. As an exemple, one radiant relic gives you only 10% chance to get a rare drop, but four identic radiant relics vive you at about 34% chance to get a rare drop.

It's just the same statistics for holokeys, the more you try, the more you'll increase your chance to get them.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

And the analogy with salary is very bad. It's not a work you're doing to be paid for, It's a game with chances to win. It's much more like a casino.

The outcome is the same - 1x guaranteed vs. 1.25x but not guaranteed.

It's also quite a good analogy - because people who gamble for a living generally end up bankrupt because they don't have anything to rely on. That there is the crux. Something reliable. Gambling for holokeys is not reliable. If something isn't reliable, it's frustrating.

So again: why exactly is it a good thing to get 10 items 35% of the time as opposed to getting 3 items 100% of the time? Over a large number of trials, those two outcomes converge. It's the same, statistically. But the difference is that a lesser drop rate at 100% has much less frustration because each run guarantees progress.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, DoomFruit a dit :

The outcome is the same - 1x guaranteed vs. 1.25x but not guaranteed.

It's also quite a good analogy - because people who gamble for a living generally end up bankrupt because they don't have anything to rely on. That there is the crux. Something reliable. Gambling for holokeys is not reliable. If something isn't reliable, it's frustrating.

So again: why exactly is it a good thing to get 10 items 35% of the time as opposed to getting 3 items 100% of the time? Over a large number of trials, those two outcomes converge. It's the same, statistically. But the difference is that a lesser drop rate at 100% has much less frustration because each run guarantees progress.

No, sorry, it's not a good analogy. An analogy is a relational similarity, and it requires four terms

On the case of a salary, you have a legal obligation due to an employment contract, but this obligation does not exists on the case of a game drop, which is much more like lottery (but with a much greater chance to win).

So salary/worker has no similarity with drop/player. And that's why this analogy does not work at all.

It's up to the devs to chose how it will work and it works very well for most of us. The only thing we can do is to give them feedback based on our in game experience, so they will be able to change those things that doesn't work.

I gave my feedback and you too. They were not the same and it's normal. Both can help the devs to make Warframe even better. But I don't agree with some analogies that can mean that the devs are not giving to the players something they should give by a legal obligation, and that's what the salary analogy actually says. If you look carefully, my friend, this analogy is not very respectful.

[Culaio]

18 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm not really lucky, it's just the way the game works. Many friends and clan mates get as much holokeys as me.

I'm sorry, but à 37,5% drop chance is not bad at all and you should have got at least one holokey drop. Perhaps there is a glitch.

I did finally drop it on my very next run(17)  but the fact that it taken so long is unresonable, chance of that happening is 0.05%, with how many people I talked having similar problems shows that there is clearly something wrong  with this system, I mean I NEVER had such back lack even with getting rare  things from relics(full team with rad relics gives 34.39% chance of droping)

 

doing 17 runs for it to drop once which at best is 1/4 of needed for weapon is unacceptable, DE should  add somekind of rubberbanding system where  it shouldnt take more then 10 runx MAX  to drop it at least once, and thats with current number of melee weapons, as number increases it would be very annoying for new players to do HUNDREDS of runs to max all weapons, at that point system should guranatee that that you drop holokeys once in 5 runs.

[DoomFruit]

30 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

So salary/worker has no similarity with drop/player. And that's why this analogy does not work at all.

Except it does have a similarity. It's a comparison between guaranteed income at X per unit time (or mission in this case) versus sporadic income of either zero at fraction A of the time or Y at fraction B of the time, where B = 1-A and Y = X/B. The final income is only identical given an infinite number of trials.

It's an analogy and not a direct example because the two situations are not exactly 100% the same but are close enough to compare. That's what an analogy is. You'll notice that at no point I said anything about legal obligations. You're the one who brought that in. The comparison was between income rate and that alone. Frankly, you're just nitpicking.

Again, explain why getting 10 keys 35% of the time is better for the playerbase than getting 3.5 keys 100% of the time. The former has frustration. The latter does not.

Justify that.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 2 minutes, DoomFruit a dit :

Except it does have a similarity. It's a comparison between guaranteed income at X per unit time (or mission in this case) versus sporadic income of either zero at fraction A of the time or Y at fraction B of the time, where B = 1-A and Y = X/B. The final income is only identical given an infinite number of trials.

It's an analogy and not a direct example because the two situations are not exactly 100% the same but are close enough to compare. That's what an analogy is. You'll notice that at no point I said anything about legal obligations. You're the one who brought that in. The comparison was between income rate and that alone. Frankly, you're just nitpicking.

Again, explain why getting 10 keys 35% of the time is better for the playerbase than getting 3.5 keys 100% of the time. The former has frustration. The latter does not.

Justify that.

First, you have clearly not understood what an analogy is. Of course it is not exact the same, it's the meaning of an analogy,  simpliciter diversa, secundum quid eadem. Sorry, but I know what I'm saying, I've studied for many years analogy from Aristotle to modern analytic philosophy to be able to identify a bad analogy, and the salary one is a very bad analogy. And what you said is just nonsense, sorry. 

secondly, I don't have to justify nothing, and nobody else does. It's just what the devs chose to the game and nothing more. You can hate it, but it's just like that.

Read @Culaio's text,  what he says is perfectly  reasonable, clear, and a very nice feedback of his experience. He does not need to make bad analogies to force game changes. 

[quxier]

12 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Sorry, but this isn't the way it works. Every run you do increases the chance to get at least one time the drop.

I would say "yes and no". I guess it's cumulative probability (I may be horribly wrong about used term, I remember someone used it but it was long time ago). Every run increase your likelihood of getting at least one drop but it doesn't mean that next run has different %. Every run has the same has the same chance.

Quote

Just think about the way relics work. If you're on a squad and everybody puts the same relic, even though each relic gives you the same drop chance, the four together give you a higher chance to have at least once of each drop. As an exemple, one radiant relic gives you only 10% chance to get a rare drop, but four identic radiant relics vive you at about 34% chance to get a rare drop.

I've run solo 27 radiants. At 27th run I've got uncommon/rare stuff. All 26 radiants were common stuffs or uncommon forma. That's around 6 radshare runs without uncommon/rare parts. Chance increased but I've got the same loot.

12 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

It's just the same statistics for holokeys, the more you try, the more you'll increase your chance to get them.

Of course that's true. That's true for most thing*. That's doesn't take into account other stuffs. Very important stuffs.

* there might be a bug where you cannot drop stuffs even you have tried infinite number of times

[(NSW)freedycurie]

Le 17/09/2021 à 10:32, (NSW)AegisFifi a dit :

Hi, I would like to give some feedback based on my own in game experience.

I've tried to farm some holokeys before the changes by doing some Void Storm mission on Veil Proxima and even thogh I could get some (37,5% is not that bad), only 6 Holokeys each time it dropped was not enough.

After the changes, I got 80 Holokeys in just one day. So, for me, it was a very good change. Drop chance is really not bad at all. I think the problem farming Holokey (and every other item on Railjack missions) is the time you spend doing the mission itself : it's much longer than ordinary missions, but even though it's longer, I really think it was a very nice change and I don't have any farming problem anymore.

Thanks DE. 👍

My experience was almost the same as @AegisFifi.

I really wanted to get that beautiful Tenet Agendus Hammer and Shield weapon and I started farming holokeys for a couple of hours, I did perhaps 7 or 8 missions on Veil Proxima and it was enough to get the 40 Holokeys I needed.

So, for me the changes worked very well and I'm pretty glad with them.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 8 heures, quxier a dit :

I would say "yes and no". I guess it's cumulative probability (I may be horribly wrong about used term, I remember someone used it but it was long time ago). Every run increase your likelihood of getting at least one drop but it doesn't mean that next run has different %. Every run has the same has the same chance.

That's what I'm saying. Every run increases your chance to get at least one drop, even though each run has the same drop chance.

 

Il y a 8 heures, quxier a dit :

I've run solo 27 radiants. At 27th run I've got uncommon/rare stuff. All 26 radiants were common stuffs or uncommon forma. That's around 6 radshare runs without uncommon/rare parts. Chance increased but I've got the same loot.

In a solo Relic run, a Radiant relic gives you 10% chance to get the rare item. So, even though it's a high number of runs (and it's very boring) it's normal to have to do almost 30 runs to get it. Chances increases, but it's still a chance and it's not sure. To be nearly guaranteed, with a 10% drop chance, you need at about 55 runs, I think.

 

Il y a 8 heures, quxier a dit :

* there might be a bug where you cannot drop stuffs even you have tried infinite number of times

I really think it can happen. As an exemple, I had a really hard time trying to get a complete Zephyr prime set, but all the other sets, including Nidus prime with his two rare parts, were pretty easy. Very hard time to get Quellor, Shedu Barrel, Aklex Prime link, even though I've one more than enough runs. Very hard time to get all Pathocyst parts (I got the same parts more than 25 times, and they all have te same drop chance).

Sometimes, it is hard to explain how is it possible to have to do so many runs to get a part that is not that rare. I really think sometimes a drop chance glitch can happen, but it didn't happen to me while I was farming Holokeys, perhaps it happened to you.

Thnak you very much for your answer.👍

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

In a solo Relic run, a Radiant relic gives you 10% chance to get the rare item. So, even though it's a high number of runs (and it's very boring) it's normal to have to do almost 30 runs to get it. Chances increases, but it's still a chance and it's not sure. To be nearly guaranteed, with a 10% drop chance, you need at about 55 runs, I think.

That's correct from statistic's point of view.

However think as a player for a second. I've upgraded and run 26 relics and I haven't seen ANY CHANGE. Statistic requires to run as fair I remember at least 100 runs to say that's probability is (more or less) correct (e.g. that 30% chances is near 30% of the results, hence around 30 drops from 100). Player won't run that many rounds.

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Sometimes, it is hard to explain how is it possible to have to do so many runs to get a part that is not that rare. I really think sometimes a drop chance glitch can happen, but it didn't happen to me while I was farming Holokeys, perhaps it happened to you.

That hasn't happened for me (I've got probably 15-30%, which is not so good but ok). However some people have been farming for hours (assuming they are not bad at it) and got very little or no Holos.

[Tenno72876]

Firstly, RJ missions are long by themselves.

Then, on top of it, RANDOM REWARDS.

Make it 20, make it 100 per run, nobody will like it as long as it's RANDOM.

Some ppl just want to play for 20-30 min and get SOME HOLOKEYS. Currently you can get 0 in 30 min.

So basically you play 30 min to get NOTHING. Because other rewards are bad.

So just make them 2-3 on veil.

But GUARANTEED, or at least over 70 percent chance.

[Jarriaga]

On 2021-09-18 at 11:40 AM, Culaio said:

I did finally drop it on my very next run(17)  but the fact that it taken so long is unresonable, chance of that happening is 0.05%, with how many people I talked having similar problems shows that there is clearly something wrong  with this system, I mean I NEVER had such back lack even with getting rare  things from relics(full team with rad relics gives 34.39% chance of droping)

doing 17 runs for it to drop once which at best is 1/4 of needed for weapon is unacceptable, DE should  add somekind of rubberbanding system where  it shouldnt take more then 10 runx MAX  to drop it at least once, and thats with current number of melee weapons, as number increases it would be very annoying for new players to do HUNDREDS of runs to max all weapons, at that point system should guranatee that that you drop holokeys once in 5 runs.

Not to mention the time you have too keep doing this if you want to have one of the weapons at +60% with the element you like. I mean, what are the odds of the store giving you exactly that so you'd only need 160 Holokeys in total (40 for each weapon) because they are exactly what you're arming for? I'd wager you have more chances of being struck by actual lightning.

[Culaio]

20 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Not to mention the time you have too keep doing this if you want to have one of the weapons at +60% with the element you like. I mean, what are the odds of the store giving you exactly that so you'd only need 160 Holokeys in total (40 for each weapon) because they are exactly what you're arming for? I'd wager you have more chances of being struck by actual lightning.

Thats true, currently best strategy is to get each weapon twice, once with right element and then wait and get one with high enough bonus which when combined with first weapon gives you 60% bonus, which means second weapon has to be at least 54.6%, which when multiplied by 1.1 will give you 60%, of course you may be waiting a LONG time to get such big bonus, I saw heat element tenet agendus with 54.3% bonus few days ago, its still not enough to max it out with another weapon unless that weapon has 54.6% bonus....

[Jarriaga]

14 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Thats true, currently best strategy is to get each weapon twice, once with right element and then wait and get one with high enough bonus which when combined with first weapon gives you 60% bonus, which means second weapon has to be at least 54.6%, which when multiplied by 1.1 will give you 60%, of course you may be waiting a LONG time to get such big bonus, I saw heat element tenet agendus with 54.3% bonus few days ago, its still not enough to max it out with another weapon unless that weapon has 54.6% bonus....

Which makes these drop rates beyond unreasonable. 

[quxier]

23 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Thats true, currently best strategy is to get each weapon twice, once with right element and then wait and get one with high enough bonus which when combined with first weapon gives you 60% bonus, which means second weapon has to be at least 54.6%, which when multiplied by 1.1 will give you 60%, of course you may be waiting a LONG time to get such big bonus, I saw heat element tenet agendus with 54.3% bonus few days ago, its still not enough to max it out with another weapon unless that weapon has 54.6% bonus....

This is what I've wanted to post.

ps. you don't need exact 60%. Around 50% will give you ~55%.

 

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Which makes these drop rates beyond unreasonable. 

Take into account that you don't need all weapons just because they have additional element. I've got Exec with wrong element (I've got electricity but I want Heat) with just ~25%. I don't feel like doing Void storms for Heat exec. Rest Tenet weapons are clunky or "meh" (just little bit stronger). I probably could beat Sisters but I don't want any weapons.

Of course it's very subjective.

[(XBOX)Pipolo]

Increase the probability. Still very, very low.

[IR4_IR4]

Theres no reason to increase more the drop chance, now it's perfect.

 

Maybe, what if it would be necessary is to enable the possibility of being able to exchange the ones that you have left (for those who already have everything), for other items.

 

Maybe in the future an NPC with a shop with railjack stuff? and maybe the possibility to buy VOID TRACES in that shop?

 

The same in TheTicker, the possibility of buying crew members also for keys, in addition to the usual resources?

[Culaio]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

This is what I've wanted to post.

ps. you don't need exact 60%. Around 50% will give you ~55%.

People who are completionists will want 60% so they will have to farm more, not to mention that 5% can help you if you are doing event and want to achieve gold trophy for your solo clan.

47 minutes ago, IR4_IR4 said:

Theres no reason to increase more the drop chance, now it's perfect.

No its not perfect, it still can take 17 runs to drop holokeys ONCE, and just because you didnt have such problem doesnt mean many others didnt have.