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Mandatory Mods Shouldn't be replaced


thats_rudiculous_07
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Mandatory mods Shouldn't be replace with other forms of damage that rely on fodder units kills , which damage has to ramp up each every time, if you don't kill a fodder unit with that small time remain it loses damage. If you're trying to replace damage mod for example like serration with arcanes. you should give those arcanes a base damage so it would be more convincing. Going against bosses those mods and arcanes have no real effect unless you kill fodder units. So we would have to rely on killing units and enjoy the boss games play. Plus you should rework some of the boss an improve the boss like the one Venus. Give the boss stages.

Plus serration has 165 damage your Arcane deal 360 which isn't much. How about you give the Arcane at least base damage then it ramps up like the galvanized mods . Increase Arcane damage to 400. Give it base damage of 120. That goes the same for secondary arcanes.

Or Improver modding ui!!!! To account for essential (mandatory) mods, elemental damages, and  perks.

Edited by thats_rudiculous_07
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il y a 42 minutes, thats_rudiculous_07 a dit :

Plus serration has 165 damage your Arcane deal 360 which isn't much.

360% VS 165%  is actually more 1.7x more damage (considering you only have one source of base damage increase).
This big increase at the cost of pontential damage loss if you don't use it correctly seems like a fair trade.

As for bosses, most of them have random enemies around you can kill to keep your stacks up.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb SneakyErvin:

The on-kill effect is the only thing that needs to change, so the galv mods and arcanes work better versus bosses. Not that we actually need them versus any of the current bosses, but might aswell plan ahead for future potential boss releases.

I don't think there is a bos, which doesn't spawn additional enemies.

So it's more of a managment thing, to kill the adds at the right time,

either kill them before attacking the boss to deal damage,

or kill them as early as possible to reduce incoming DPS.

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This guy... if he had a list of 9999 tags, he would add all 9998 in a vain attempt to increase visibility to something that everyone knows its false when the supposed "mandatory mods replacement" is concerned...

 

... It didn't replace a single thing in my builds, nor my builds changed because of it...

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Amalgam Serration gives +25% Sprint Speed which makes it irreplaceable, and as you said, the arcane has to ramp up before it is useful, so it seems you are arguing against yourself there.

More bosses being like Jackal would be a PITA and that's something I will never agree with, don't extend the time it takes to kill a boss with platformer mechanics and quick-time events that cannot be skipped, if a boss is too bullet spongy then it's simply not efficient to farm him at the moment, which will change as the game receives more updates and you gain more DPS, but if the boss has long invincibility periods then he will always be annoying.

I agree that the new arcanes are less effective against bosses because of how they ramp up, but the "on kill" doesn't bother me anywhere else, so perhaps bosses could be given an aura that adds stacks to your arcane gradually, or stop them from decaying.

 

Something else that bothers me is that these arcanes discourage you from switching between primaries and secondaries, I think that twin arcanes like Primary Merciless and Secondary Merciless should share the same stacks, otherwise these arcane just encourage you to stick to one weapon.

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3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

I don't think there is a bos, which doesn't spawn additional enemies.

So it's more of a managment thing, to kill the adds at the right time,

either kill them before attacking the boss to deal damage,

or kill them as early as possible to reduce incoming DPS.

The problem comes in groups though, only one person can get the kill on an enemy. And with all the AoE we have that may mean those mobs all get wiped at once. This also applies to non-boss missions. And depending on the arcane, killing adds needs to be done each 4 to 24 seconds depending on the trigger of the arcane. None of the 3 arcanes are really suited for boss fights since you have one that triggers from melee, the other from headshot kills and the third from kills and only lasts 4 seconds.

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On 2021-08-05 at 6:47 AM, Uhkretor said:

This guy... if he had a list of 9999 tags, he would add all 9998 in a vain attempt to increase visibility to something that everyone knows its false when the supposed "mandatory mods replacement" is concerned...

 

... It didn't replace a single thing in my builds, nor my builds changed because of it...

I don't think it trues and there are YouTubers who are discussing it. those Arcane shouldn't be an incentive to replace mandatory mods. Plus they aren't as good at the actual mods due giving unreliable damage. Since depends on spawning and  the quantity. The people are using those arcanes are replacing that mod with factions mods which doesn't increase damage a whole lot. Modding sytem should be improved for diversify not restrictions or a loss in the essential mods

 

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On 2021-08-05 at 5:00 AM, lukinu_u said:

360% VS 165%  is actually more 1.7x more damage (considering you only have one source of base damage increase).
This big increase at the cost of pontential damage loss if you don't use it correctly seems like a fair trade.

As for bosses, most of them have random enemies around you can kill to keep your stacks up.

Unreliably... is that games play for the boss or enemies. Boss aren't that engaging either way. Are you gonna put your attention on killing fodder units while someone else with an actual build that doesn't rely on kill affect will kill it faster either way

Edited by thats_rudiculous_07
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2 hours ago, thats_rudiculous_07 said:

I don't think it trues and there are YouTubers who are discussing it. those Arcane shouldn't be an incentive to replace mandatory mods. Plus they aren't as good at the actual mods due giving unreliable damage. Since depends on spawning and  the quantity. The people are using those arcanes are replacing that mod with factions mods which doesn't increase damage a whole lot. Modding sytem should be improved for diversify not restrictions or a loss in the essential mods

Honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, what you think doesn't really matter to anyone else other than you. And whatever youtubers discuss isn't written in stone, nor is anything of value that you should consider as a remote possibility...

There are two ways of being a youtuber with Warframe in order to keep, and potentially increase, their entire viewer base:

  1. Be flawless when playing it.
  2. Find reasons that don't exist in order to complain about it like there's no tomorrow and, for added aggravation, add all the entire roll of previous complaints to the mix just to spice it up even more.

 

Arcanes do NOT replace a thing. That's a fact that I took the trouble of confirming... Player choices do. Its entirely up to the player to choose if they want to make that mistake... And that choice is, as its already working as intended for thousands of years in real life, subjective to the person with whatever consequences that come up with it.

 

Again, and I cannot stress this enough, Arcanes do NOT replace a thing, but player choices do.

Edited by Uhkretor
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On 2021-08-05 at 7:24 AM, Kripnex said:

Amalgam Serration gives +25% Sprint Speed which makes it irreplaceable, and as you said, the arcane has to ramp up before it is useful, so it seems you are arguing against yourself there.

More bosses being like Jackal would be a PITA and that's something I will never agree with, don't extend the time it takes to kill a boss with platformer mechanics and quick-time events that cannot be skipped, if a boss is too bullet spongy then it's simply not efficient to farm him at the moment, which will change as the game receives more updates and you gain more DPS, but if the boss has long invincibility periods then he will always be annoying.

Too true. My primary is a rifle or a bow 99% of the time specifically for the sprint buff. Well, that and because Ignis Wraith is a quality of life wonder, and Proboscis Cernos is a beast.

Agreed on Jackal. It pulls in some of my least favorite boss fight tropes:

  • Invincible until you do the thing, which you can't do until the boss does it's long, unskippable, uninterruptible thing.
  • Speaking of which, hay guyz, we heard you like shmups!
  • Oh, and it's also an excuse to use this thing that's barely a gameplay mechanic except for parts we (re)wrote around it.
  • Animation time. Put the controller down for a sec, and take a sip of your drink. Riveting.
  • That thing you did? Do it again and again. That's it. That's the fight.

When I did this a bunch to get normal Rhino to feeed meee, seymour, I just took a loadout that can facetank its spam and saunter over like a locksmith paid by the hour to gank it with the parazon.

 

Edited by ArmsForPeace84
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On 2021-08-05 at 2:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

The on-kill effect is the only thing that needs to change, so the galv mods and arcanes work better versus bosses. Not that we actually need them versus any of the current bosses, but might aswell plan ahead for future potential boss releases.

Nah. Both provide benefits other than their on kill effects so its entirely player choice if they want to potentially minmax in best conditions vs reliable or a average between the two. Only if a mod does nothing and only has on kill should it not be so as then its dead in design.

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5 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Nah. Both provide benefits other than their on kill effects so its entirely player choice if they want to potentially minmax in best conditions vs reliable or a average between the two. Only if a mod does nothing and only has on kill should it not be so as then its dead in design.

They really dont, not when it comes to potential new boss fights, which is my main point. Skipping Galv mods for instance to gain 10% more constant multishot or slightly more constant damage (instead of CO Galv) will not allow DE to push bosses much further. There just arent any mods to trade in to perform better versus something like a boss while reducing your horde clear potential as a trade off. If there were such options I'd agree with you, but there arent.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

They really dont.

You are sacrificing around 10% supplementary base stats or a base damage mod for potential higher damage. Literally the definition of what i said.
If you think its not worth it thats on you and a point of modding in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

You are sacrificing around 10% supplementary base stats or a base damage mod for potential higher damage. Literally the definition of what i said.
If you think its not worth it thats on you and a point of modding in the first place.

That isnt what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about how the new mods wont be usable versus bosses, which means new bosses needs to follow the old "max" i.e pre-galv and arcanes for "balance". They cant base them around the galv mods/arcanes since there are no replacements that give the same output in a different way. It isnt about having an AoE setup and a single target one, since we simply dont have those choices.

No one cares about the current trade off since it is insignificant.

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2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about how the new mods wont be usable versus bosses, which means new bosses needs to follow the old "max" i.e pre-galv and arcanes for "balance". They cant base them around the galv mods/arcanes since there are no replacements that give the same output in a different way. It isnt about having an AoE setup and a single target one, since we simply dont have those choices.

No one cares about the current trade off since it is insignificant.

To be frank, any new boss DE introduces is guaranteed to have some form of damage attenuation which will make the difference negligible.

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9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about how the new mods wont be usable versus bosses, which means new bosses needs to follow the old "max" i.e pre-galv and arcanes for "balance". They cant base them around the galv mods/arcanes since there are no replacements that give the same output in a different way. It isnt about having an AoE setup and a single target one, since we simply dont have those choices.

No one cares about the current trade off since it is insignificant.

It is if you dont max out the stacks. Idk how you dont get it, You are risking not getting max value of of the mods (and technically arcanes due to dex letting melee focus) but instead only the 80% status, 80/110% multi or low base damage but higher max potential vs reliability by still adding serration adding another multishot mod or in place of gun CO going for something that adds damage with no stacks.
Thats literally base definition of a choice during modding.

Edited by Andele3025
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On 2021-08-05 at 5:00 AM, lukinu_u said:

360% VS 165%  is actually more 1.7x more damage (considering you only have one source of base damage increase).
This big increase at the cost of pontential damage loss if you don't use it correctly seems like a fair trade.

As for bosses, most of them have random enemies around you can kill to keep your stacks up.

100% agreement

The big issue as far as i am concerned is players were complaining about a non issue.

Primary and secondary weapons were already in a good place outside of steel path and the galvanized mods with arcanes are a huge, mostly unnecessary buff.

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13 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

100% agreement

The big issue as far as i am concerned is players were complaining about a non issue.

Primary and secondary weapons were already in a good place outside of steel path and the galvanized mods with arcanes are a huge, mostly unnecessary buff.

The new arcanes are just something to negate the 2.5x health, armor and shields they decided to slap onto the Steel Path last minute for some reason. 

It's just weird because someone at DE knows numbers.

Corrosive was capped in such a way to match the new scaling. 4500 initial Ferrite armor is where the New capped Corrosive and Old full strip Corrosive broke even. Lower than 4500 Ferrite and the capped Corrosive is better. Above 4500 Ferrite and the Old Corrosive was better. Of course 4500 armor is what a level ~74 Heavy Gunner sports, which isn't very far away from level 80, where the gentler armor scaling kicks in. All of that logic goes out the window with 2.5x health and armor.

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13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Nah. Both provide benefits other than their on kill effects so its entirely player choice if they want to potentially minmax in best conditions vs reliable or a average between the two. Only if a mod does nothing and only has on kill should it not be so as then its dead in design.

Plus they only out perform in specific condition like survival and disruption

Then defence, mobile defence, and sabotage, open worlds

Then exterminate spy  capture

Then bosses. The eidolons (all 3) are good example where those arcanes and mods are completely worthless. I actually enjoy playing those bosses (or exploiter orb mother not profit taker) but back to the issue your gonna being going back forth just to retain those stack which is annoying game play.

Edited by thats_rudiculous_07
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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

100% agreement

The big issue as far as i am concerned is players were complaining about a non issue.

Primary and secondary weapons were already in a good place outside of steel path and the galvanized mods with arcanes are a huge, mostly unnecessary buff.

Only certain type of frames. Plus the arcanes weren't necessary. I would have preferred galvanized serration over the Arcanes. DE  just wanted people to farm for acolytes as in incentive . Rather than providing weaker version of serration that wouldve been galvanized mods.

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3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It is if you dont max out the stacks. Idk how you dont get it, you you are risking not getting max value of of the mods (and technically arcanes due to dex letting melee focus) but instead only the 80% status, 80/110% multi or low base damage but higher max potential vs reliability by still adding serration adding another multishot mod or in place of gun CO going for something that adds damage with no stacks.
Thats literally base definition of a choice during modding.

The problem isnt galvanized mods . Those mod have base stats which increases with kills . Their good points to those mods where they make sense however your still relying hordes of enemies kills for arcane to even be efficient but galvanized mods are more forgiving than those arcane. 

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16 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

To be frank, any new boss DE introduces is guaranteed to have some form of damage attenuation which will make the difference negligible.

That is true. Which is also sad.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It is if you dont max out the stacks. Idk how you dont get it, You are risking not getting max value of of the mods (and technically arcanes due to dex letting melee focus) but instead only the 80% status, 80/110% multi or low base damage but higher max potential vs reliability by still adding serration adding another multishot mod or in place of gun CO going for something that adds damage with no stacks.
Thats literally base definition of a choice during modding.

You dont need to max the stacks out for anything. You need a single kill to make the mods significantly better than the regular. And that isnt what I'm talking about anyways. I'm talking about the poor interaction with single targets. And that there is no real reason to have on-kill because in the settings we play mostly, the kills are constant so the stacks are always maxed. Which makes me wonder why they went with on-kill to begin with. To frustrate players in groups? That is the only reason I see.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2021-08-10 at 6:38 AM, SneakyErvin said:

That is true. Which is also sad.

You dont need to max the stacks out for anything. You need a single kill to make the mods significantly better than the regular. And that isnt what I'm talking about anyways. I'm talking about the poor interaction with single targets. And that there is no real reason to have on-kill because in the settings we play mostly, the kills are constant so the stacks are always maxed. Which makes me wonder why they went with on-kill to begin with. To frustrate players in groups? That is the only reason I see.

 

Fyi this wasn't about the galvanized mods most of them are great.

accept for the crit ones since their stacks are dificult to keep up and the shotgun beam length which also should have  been available for the other primaries.

Edited by thats_rudiculous_07
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