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Nidus: The slowest tank in the fastest game


OnlyLyricsNow

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Hello, I am OnlyLyricsNow, and I was a former Nidus main. Given his prime is coming right around the corner I think now is the best time to discuss him. Nidus is a Warframe that is fundamentally designed to grow stronger throughout the mission, so I will mostly ignore his use cases in non-endless missions as his use in non-endless missions is something I’d rather put aside momentarily to permit discussion. My two issues with Nidus are that he can feel weird in terms of stack accumulation (which can fluctuate based on your teammates’ and enemies levels) and most importantly some of his abilities’ execution don't seem to fit Warframe. To help dissect these issues I'm going to break it down ability by ability.

 

Let's quickly skim over virulence. It's fine. It does what it needs to. It wouldn't hurt to get stacks slightly faster and wouldn't hurt if it didn't. Its accumulation is based on the durability of your enemies and how quickly your teammates kill them, which can be frustrating to the point of giving up on using it entirely.

 

Larva on the other hand is one of the best skills in Warframe in my opinion, as it's clumps people together and let's you turn a lot of PEOPLE into a lot of PIECES in very little TIME. It's awesome. My only issue with it is it will occasionally grab people in other rooms and behind weird doorways, which can be annoying and bewildering at times. I've resorted to having 72.5% duration to help overcome this issue.This could be easily remedied by allowing us to manually cancel and recast the ability.


 

Parasitic link and Virulence are interesting abilities and my issues with them are similar, so I'll talk about them together for a bit. Warframe is a game about movement and power at its core. You spend most of this game whizzing around bullet jumping, and evacuating all life from those beautiful boxes we call rooms, before we run to the next red blips on our mini maps to clean them too. We are rarely stationary and that's the problem with these two abilities. Parasitic link converts an enemy into a temporary anchor or tethers you to an ally and Virulence spawns a maggot nest, which only provides regen in its area and only spawns maggots in its area. These two abilities encourage you to hunker down and discourage movement.  If you do want to move, you have to recast your abilities and establish another nest only to leave and recast again. It feels counter intuitive to the game flow/design. 

 

If we were to compare Parasitic Link to other damage mitigation abilities in Warframe, eg. Scarab Swarm, Null Star, Shatter Shield, Warding Halo, etc we would notice a consistent trend. Parasitic Link doesn't follow. It's the only ability that isn't tethered to the Warframe, but attached to a point in the map and I don't think anyone enjoys recasting Parasitic Link whenever they have to move or switch to the next round in Defense/Interception. If I could make one of two changes to Nidus, I would make Parasitic Link horrifyingly absorb its victim, turning their EHP into the respective damage absorption for its level. When casting on teammates I would make it cast a separate gross parasites to Nidus and teammate that boosts damage.

 

My second proposed change would be to make Virulence turn Nidus into the nest itself, provide the regen in an AoE and spawn the maggots from himself.I hear some arguments that his Virulence is an “objective defending” ability, but if it is, it is genuinely one of the worst abilities in the game. It can only CC a max of 9 targets and it doesn't block projectiles, where as Snow Globe, Mass Vitrify, Strangle Dome, etc do substantially better defensive things. Why would I want to cast Virulence to CC when I have Larva? It’s simply a better, more efficient ability. Why would I want to cast the heal whenever I enter the room when I already have damage mitigation from Parasitic Link?

   

TLDR;

1. Virulence- It's perfect and fine and functional the way it is (wouldn't hurt if it got stacks quicker).

2. Larva- A bit buggy, but overall fine conceptually. Needs to stop pulling enemies in other rooms/behind walls. We should be able to cancel and recast this ability

3. Parasitic link- Should absorb an enemy and turn them into EHP that absorbs 90% damage. Ally interaction should spawn separate amping parasites that latch onto Nidus and said ally.

4. Ravenous- Should turn Nidus into a mobile nest with heal radius, with maggots that auto explode when they get too far, but if it were to remain as some stationary “defensive” ability it would need further rework.

   

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope you find something at least interesting about what I said. If you have something to add, then I would love to hear it. 

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I would love to see all of these in game. If his 4th worked as you described I wouldn't have to replace it with Gloom all the time. And just the idea of him becoming a nest and mobile hub for his infestation sounds like something amazing.

All these great ideas make me sad as well, because during the Tennocon, DE stated that they are not interested in looking at or reworking old frames, instead implementing community ideas into new ones. I guess that's where the money are to them.

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because of how fast Parasitic Link is, the low cost, and Nidus generally being encouraged to have high Range anyways - i really don't mind having to recast to move my benefits to a new area. sure, it's not as convenient as Shatter Shield, but it's sill one of the best defensive Abilities in the game, and it's simultaneously basically the best offensive support buff in the game.

additionally it sounds like you want to change Parasitic Link into being a modified Iron Skin - that would generally be a downgrade, surely, unless it has a truly insane Health value, which is very unlikely to happen.

 

however, Ravenous, yeah. i could see it being worth adjusting it to be less location restricted in some way. maybe a simple avenue is to make it like Shooting Gallery? Nidus gets a thing around him always, and something to place at a fixed location.
oh, as for the Maggots, it would be nice if it was more consistent over time. if it Spawned Maggots fewer at a time, like just one at a time, but did so at a consistent rate. at first i'd say one per 5 Seconds, but that doesn't quite work out as that's a base nerf and means low Duration also gets nerfed. so maybe as simple as a base amount plus one per 5 Seconds. say, 3 plus one per 5 Seconds.

and it would be nice if Virulence gained a little bit of Width with Ability Range. it can be just a smidge skinny sometimes.

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3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

because of how fast Parasitic Link is, the low cost, and Nidus generally being encouraged to have high Range anyways - i really don't mind having to recast to move my benefits to a new area. sure, it's not as convenient as Shatter Shield, but it's sill one of the best defensive Abilities in the game, and it's simultaneously basically the best offensive support buff in the game.

additionally it sounds like you want to change Parasitic Link into being a modified Iron Skin - that would generally be a downgrade, surely, unless it has a truly insane Health value, which is very unlikely to happen.

 

however, Ravenous, yeah. i could see it being worth adjusting it to be less location restricted in some way. maybe a simple avenue is to make it like Shooting Gallery? Nidus gets a thing around him always, and something to place at a fixed location.

and it would be nice if Virulence gained a little bit of Width with Ability Range. it can be just a smidge skinny sometimes.

By EHP I mean including armor so this might be ridiculously broken. Like look how long it lasts linked with Bombardiers and Heavy gunners compare to say infested or lesser Grineer units

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2 minutes ago, OnlyLyricsNow said:

By EHP I mean including armor so this might be ridiculously broken. Like look how long it lasts linked with Bombardiers and Heavy gunners compare to say infested or lesser Grineer units

can you describe it a bit more? rough numbers can also help a lot with understanding what you're trying to convey.

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Just now, taiiat said:

can you describe it a bit more? rough numbers can also help a lot with understanding what you're trying to convey.

Let's say you there's a level 150 Grineer bomber. It has 39,206.92 cloned flesh, but also 8,900.3 alloy armor. You parasite it. This would give Nidus 1,202,384.5 buffer hp.
Also, I like your idea of Virulence having a greater AoE, I considered adding that one, but I was worried that, if it were to hypothetically exist, it would just crash a lot of games given how big we might make it xD.

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8 minutes ago, OnlyLyricsNow said:

Let's say you there's a level 150 Grineer bomber. It has 39,206.92 cloned flesh, but also 8,900.3 alloy armor. You parasite it. This would give Nidus 1,202,384.5 buffer hp.

Also, I like your idea of Virulence having a greater AoE, I considered adding that one, but I was worried that, if it were to hypothetically exist, it would just crash a lot of games given how big we might make it xD.

oh, directly adding the Enemy Health to yours as a barrier. i guess that could work. i don't know whether i'd specifically want it but it could work.

i did say a little bit of width, there are Abilities which scale with Range directly in one Axis but at a much reduced rate in the other. Virulence could simply do that. length direct Range, and Width like Range divided by 5 or even 10. so that max Range would end up being perhaps +66% Width compared to unmodded, or so. 

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I agree with the suggestions stated thus far.  If they could return Nidus's stack accumulation to the rate it was when Nidus originally released I feel would help out his current state.  Also maybe make it so that whatever Larva is currently holding onto, if it dies, that it also contributes to Nidus's stack accumulation.  There've been so many times I'm stomping the Larva ball with Virulence but gets cut short because someone decided to nuke it cutting off the amount of stacks I could have gained.  Also finally, it may kind of cross into Oberon or Frost's territory but yes, I feel maybe increasing Virulence's width would help immensely.  Ravenous as well it would be nice if it got a radius increase if not making it mobile version as stated originally.

I can't really decide what I'd change with Parasitic Link.  I don't normally use it on enemies for the EHP.  I've always preferred linking it to another warframe in the party that could use the Power Strength increase.

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41 minutes ago, VenerealNidus said:

I would love to see all of these in game. If his 4th worked as you described I wouldn't have to replace it with Gloom all the time. And just the idea of him becoming a nest and mobile hub for his infestation sounds like something amazing.

All these great ideas make me sad as well, because during the Tennocon, DE stated that they are not interested in looking at or reworking old frames, instead implementing community ideas into new ones. I guess that's where the money are to them.

You have a beautiful name and you deserve to know that. I also hope Digital extremes doesn't commit to ignoring reworkframes ;__;

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Wait... does the damage from parasitic link not get reduced by armor values?

I saw something on here that said add EHP to Nidus directly but if the EHP of linked targets is what gets damaged (damage reduced by damage reduction) then isn't this kind of already happening?

I suppose the 10% of damage that bypasses the link is mildly problematic but this is just one of many issue I have with nidus being a true tank. In my experience he is pretty flimsy compared to real tanks (inaros, hildryn, nova etc.)

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The change to the 4 would be alot of work but could always be compromised by having the nest as is but being able to resummon it at no cost while its durations still active.

Maggot utility definitely needs a boost though, the explosions to enemies they cling to are neat but not worth the dedication of 1 of 9 ai. Wouldnt mind a kind of "tagging" system where the maggots just leave an infested pay load inside targets triggered by the same methods as the maggot explosions are now, play the cc animation on one loop upon infection, then the maggot moves on to other untagged targets just to help the ability feel wider spread as it is lackluster for an ultimate. Would also really help bring out the apparent intended focus of this ability in its design of strengthening his whole kit i.e Ravenous, maggot latches, virulence, boom. Not sure if maggots can latch to larva targets currently either but if that isnt the case a tagging system would also allow larva to become a useful part of this combo as it means no special animations have to be made for a maggot to cling to a ragdoll the enemy just needs that tagged status.

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8 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Wait... does the damage from parasitic link not get reduced by armor values?

I saw something on here that said add EHP to Nidus directly but if the EHP of linked targets is what gets damaged (damage reduced by damage reduction) then isn't this kind of already happening?

I suppose the 10% of damage that bypasses the link is mildly problematic but this is just one of many issue I have with nidus being a true tank. In my experience he is pretty flimsy compared to real tanks (inaros, hildryn, nova etc.)

No, his Parasitic Link functions like a Warding Halo, so 10% of the damage still goes through, but the rest is absorbed by the infected target. His armor does alter the final 10% damage taken. The only difference between the two is Link has a duration, Warding Halo theoretically doesn't. He's tanky if you have 180% power strength and the target can absorb enough damage throughout its duration.

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5 minutes ago, OnlyLyricsNow said:

No, his Parasitic Link functions like a Warding Halo, so 10% of the damage still goes through, but the rest is absorbed by the infected target. His armor does alter the final 10% damage taken. The only difference between the two is Link has a duration, Warding Halo theoretically doesn't. He's tanky if you have 180% power strength and the target can absorb enough damage throughout its duration.

This is not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is whether or not the 90% of damage that is transferred to the linked target gets reduced by the target's damage reduction. IE if you link a steel path heavy gunner does their massive armor reduce the damage they receive by like 98% or whatever, or does this damage count as true damage (bypassing any damage reduction the target might have)?

I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I was asking in my initial response.

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25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

This is not what I'm asking. What I'm asking is whether or not the 90% of damage that is transferred to the linked target gets reduced by the target's damage reduction. IE if you link a steel path heavy gunner does their massive armor reduce the damage they receive by like 98% or whatever, or does this damage count as true damage (bypassing any damage reduction the target might have)?

I didn't do a very good job of explaining what I was asking in my initial response.

That's fine, I misread your question too my bad >.<
I believe it is reduced as when I tested heavy gunners shooting me and my linked heavy gunner took 14 as the crit whereas my bombardier took 11 as crit damageunknown.png

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13 minutes ago, OnlyLyricsNow said:

That's fine, I misread your question too my bad >.<
I believe it is reduced as when I tested heavy gunners shooting me and my linked heavy gunner took 14 as the crit whereas my bombardier took 11 as crit damageunknown.png

So the linked target does end up using EHP for the available HP pool of the enemy. This is what I thought but the suggestion to add the enemy's EHP to Nidus's health pool (100% damage converted instead of 90%) it threw me off for a minute.

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I have never felt particularly immobile as Nidus, but if it was a concern, I might consider something like discounting his area ability by remaining duration on the previous one. My main frustration with Nidus is collecting stacks in multiplayer. My consolation is it's mostly just a problem in content where the atacks don't matter. Steel Path baddies usually survive long enough to stack up.

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A change to 3 and 4 would be welcome. I replace 4 with gloom so I can keep healing functionality while supplying team support and slows. Not that its a proper fix, but it works better than his ultimate.

If link victims could maybe work like a Nyx mind control and teleport to catch up to you in mission, I think it would be better.

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