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New player hand holding needed.


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I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

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3 minutes ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

Uhhhh, if you honestly believe this then you have done your friend a disservice.  The Codex is easily accessible and goes over how to use the Foundry, you should have directed your friend to check it out.

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The Junctions are self explanatory, if you bother to read what's there.  As to how to access them, the missions unlock in a forward progression that forces you to them.

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If you take the time to read what's in the Codex and the Junction descriptions, this really isn't that much of an issue and doesn't require hand holding. 

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12 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Uhhhh, if you honestly believe this then you have done your friend a disservice.  The Codex is easily accessible and goes over how to use the Foundry, you should have directed your friend to check it out.

  Reveal hidden contents

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The Junctions are self explanatory, if you bother to read what's there.  As to how to access them, the missions unlock in a forward progression that forces you to them.

  Reveal hidden contents

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If you take the time to read what's in the Codex and the Junction descriptions, this really isn't that much of an issue and doesn't require hand holding. 

Listen 100 hours of my life ago I'd agree with you on a of it, but having literally just helped a player through I am telling you that on paper it sounds great in practice it's not working. 

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1 minute ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

Listen 100 hours of my life ago I'd agree with you on a of it, but having literally just helped a player through I am telling you that on paper it sounds great in practice it's not working. 

I have to disagree with you, I have dozens of new players that I've helped over the years and first thing I direct them to is the Codex.  The only ones who still didn't understand the game were the ones that wanted hand holding and simply didn't read what was in front of them.

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Teach them how to fish and not just give them a cooked one... when you are not around, they will just starve to death... (A.k.a. quit the game or come to the forum complaining about trivial stuff).

Edited by DarkSkysz
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48 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Uhhhh, if you honestly believe this then you have done your friend a disservice.  The Codex is easily accessible and goes over how to use the Foundry, you should have directed your friend to check it out.

  Hide contents

unknown.png

The Junctions are self explanatory, if you bother to read what's there.  As to how to access them, the missions unlock in a forward progression that forces you to them.

  Hide contents

unknown.png

If you take the time to read what's in the Codex and the Junction descriptions, this really isn't that much of an issue and doesn't require hand holding. 

First thing newbies should consult is wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki . In about a month I learned everything I needed to know how to progress, acquire and improve.

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Just now, Hayrack said:

First thing newbies should consult is wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki . In about a month I learned everything I needed to know how to progress, acquire and improve.

Game isn't doing its job well which is educating players if they must use sources that are outside of the game.

 

I have to agree with @MagPrime. Most information is right under your nose if you look carefully enough. Your friend learns nothing if you don't leave him/her explore the ship and look at Market, Codex, Foundry etc for 2-5minutes each. 

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@Tuli_Donitsi it's really no big deal tho, I'm not particularly smart but never felt overwhelmed or lost. Difficult part is RGN, bugs, limits and timers.

Edited by Hayrack
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In my experience, I have notice that new players don't stay long in the game after receiving helps from veterans players. Perhaps it is because the sense of the hardship and achievement being taken away, resulting very little thrill left.

Some of new players also get really attach and needy after getting help. That's why I stopped helping new players. New players and veteran are hard to make friends because they don't play the game at the same level.

IMO the best way help new players is just point them to Warframe wiki.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

I agree with you.  The game does need more guidance and hand-holding for a bit longer after Vor's Prize.  I think the current amount of introduction might have been sufficient 20 years ago, but with so many new games competing for our attention and with so many games with comprehensive and carefully designed tutorials, it's just hard to retain new players with just what we have.

I also tried pulling some friends into the game, and kept pointing them to the first tab on the Star Chart on "what to do next", while passively answering any questions they have.  I went with the minimal hand-holding approach to see if they can develop intrinsic motivation to progress in the game like I somehow did.  It did not work out.  There was too much "what am I doing", "why am I doing this", "what is all this stuff" and "why is there so much grinding" that they quickly moved on to other games.

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two parties are at fault: DE and the newer players themselves.

- DE needs to do more in terms of interactive tutorials, there is no question about that. when I started I was fortunate enough to have someone to teach me the game's fundamental systems like modding, nav console, acquiring items etc. people who don't have that luxury end up hitting a wall right after doing the awakening quest and Vor's Prize. as soon as the game says "right, now do whatever you want", it tends to overwhelm people. IMO all they need to do is make short interactive tutorial segments for the fundamental systems, and maybe create a recommend objectives list that clearly tells players what activity would most benefit them at that point. I know a lot of people are gonna just defend DE and say "use the wiki/codex" etc, but not everybody retains information well in that regard: ever heard of Visual, Physical and Auditory learning? different people learn best using different techniques and what works for one person will not work for another. some people will learn the systems faster if given a proper interactive tutorial, while others need only read or watch a video to gain the same knowledge.

- newer players are also at fault in some regards: I know not everybody is particularly lazy or entitled or anything like that, but in my experience, there aren't many people who want to commit to warframe with the level of dedication the game demands: I have no qualms about grinding things for days or even weeks, but many people are just turned off at this prospect. I have personally helped newer players in the past, and just about all of them are gone after a week or so, no matter how friendly and forthcoming I try to be. I run missions with them, answer their myriad of questions, and trade them whatever resources I can spare, but the truth of the matter is that even if I hold their hand the entire way, something occurs that makes them leave, be it a resource grind, or not reaching a certain milestone they've set themselves. and then of course, there is that minority that expect everything handed to them, but they never last, usually leaving sooner than the few who are actually willing to put in a little effort.

essentially, DE needs to step up and help newer players more, but newer players must also be willing and able to accept that help and at least try to farm stuff now and then, because at some point or another, it's inevitable that they will have to grind something, be it resources, a certain weapon or frame, etc. both of these problems have to be addressed or otherwise any additional tutorials will be wasted, and/or newer players will continue to remain confused and just move on to other games instead.

 

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What I write isn't necessarily to agree or disagree with any ones views, but to just share my personal experiences. So. I can still roughly remember my new player experience and helping others with their new experience in WF as well. I did have a mentor of sorts, but we weren't that close, different countries, different timezones. I played more than them etc but I am also the personality and player type, to look up lots of info. Not just in game, but external sources as well, videos, wiki, forums. I had a lot of questions and misconceptions, sometimes my mentor would help, more often than not, I would google and find out, or at least find out enough to struggle through before just getting enough personal experience to know. Similar tends to help when I have tried to help others. If I can't play with them directly and give advice with voice communications, I'll send replies to text questions when asked, and tell them about certain resources to give them a general idea until they can refine and apply their own knowledge and preferences. 

I still play Warframe, so personally, I didn't find the experience more negative than positive, but again, thats just my personal experience. As a singular game philosophical point, we can ask, should this game be internally reliant? Meaning that a player can get the full experience and understanding without any external sources? Or should it be externally reliant? Meaning for the full experience and understanding, you need external sources? Different people and players opinions will differ, and how a game accommodates such players will differ as well.

Some people will play a game, hit a disconnect or wall, and be frustrated and leave, some people hit a disconnect or wall, and look for ways to bypass, or overcome etc and either fail or succeed, but find the experience, time, effort involved etc unsatisfying and either leave or persist but with a negative point, which may add up depending on other experiences, and some people will hit a wall or disconnect, look for ways to bypass/overcome, succeed and with an overall positive experience (even if not every step of the process was positive). 

Personally I am the latter kind of player. Also I keep emphasising personally, because not all games should be designed to cater towards how I play, and even amongst players that are like myself, we have different thresholds and preferences. There are a lot of games like Warframe, that I don't play, even though they could be better or I might find them personally more enjoyable, but it would require more energy and time than I can invest. Thats the downside of games that go with this type of entry level philosophy. There are lots of games I have played, which are also way more internally intuitive and welcoming of new players, that I also appreciate and enjoy, so its not like I personally need every game to be this grand mess of mystery and confusing ready for me to try and decipher. 

What I get from Warframe creators design philosophy... is that, to an extent, they do want players to use external resources to help them find their way in the game (so less hand holding). To an extent, because there is a sorts of balance that can be achieved to try and appeal to as many players as you can, whilst trying to hold on to certain aspects players like/prefer. This might sound weird to some people... but there are some people who like to be a little bit intimidated by a daunting amount of info, systems, and mechanics. Their is joy to be had in figuring out junk. Of course some people are immediately turned off, and a lot of people, are some where in the middle, depending on other certain relative factors. So what I also know about the Warframe creators design philosophy is that they have tried improving the new player experience many times, and continue to try and refine and improve it. So its about balance between those two philosophies. 

Then in terms of how this applies in practice? Well lets take OP's friend. If OP didn't exist, would his friend stop playing? Or would his friend end up on Youtube, the wikia, the forums, looking up stuff, immersing themselves in external sources about the game, using the in game Q&A Chat, and would they enjoy that experience or despise it? would they eventually come to enjoy the game, even if they found the beginning varying degrees of confusing? Then depending on the answers to those questions, how does the early game balance around that, and other new players (but also in respect to energy/resources applied to the rest of the game.)

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8 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

Really, it’s your fault. Your friend didn’t need to discover anything, or figure anything out. You’ve deprived them of their early game chance to learn and experiment. Now, they are the most inexperienced MR10 player in the game.

New players don’t need their hands held, the early game is for them to explore and experiment with the mechanics in the game. Obviously a new player doesn’t have the foresight of a veteran. That’s the point of being new, of starting a new game.

You’ve just elevated them above what they understand and now they’ll be dependent on your generosity and items in order to advance further.

The nodes on the star chart are literally connected by lines, junctions are the gates between the planet. If you had left your friend alone for a single night they would’ve started figuring it out by themselves. You’ve done their intelligence a huge disservice.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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7 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

Listen 100 hours of my life ago I'd agree with you on a of it, but having literally just helped a player through I am telling you that on paper it sounds great in practice it's not working. 

It works perfectly fine in the game. How else did I manage to make it through the game all alone when I started? And I did pretty much what @MagPrimesuggests along with having an ounce of common sense. I checked up 2 things outside of the game and that was Krill and Sargas.

And imo you didnt do your friend any favors.

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It's like Josh Strife Hayes says in his review, Warframe has amazing gameplay but the onboarding is terrible.

This could all be changed by improving the new player experience in a way that actually involves more than just the opening cinematic and a new setting for the introductory mission.

Digital Extremes doesn't seem to realise that the tutorial doesn't actually finish with arriving on your orbiter, but, after that systems are just glossed over with a couple of lines of text. This is despite the fact that the next handful of missions are introducing more new aspects to the starting game.

People will say that this is good, that it encourages people to search out the information they need, but not all of them do, a large portion of them give up in frustration because the information isn't there in game to help them.

I've lost count of the amount of people I've introduced to Warframe who have given up because of either the lack of information given in game or the huge amount of contradicting information out there on the internet.

It shouldn't be like that.

The information that a new player needs should be suppled in game. Isn't that what the Codex is for?

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Relevant thread:

I have to agree with OP based on my own experience and after watching the "Worst MMO Ever? Warframe" Josh Hayes video. The in-game codex is simply not robust-enough or hinted-enough as to be relevant. For example, it tells you the abilities Excalibur has, but not the mechanics of each of them. It tells you "X mission drops Y relic", but not the drop chance or rotation.

And having to go through the codex to find out there is a questline structure was a rather weird discovery for me when I was a new player. I think all quests should have a dedicated section in the Star Chart with the main quest DE thinks you should be focused on being automatically selected while highlighting pending progression requirements. 

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Its not even hand-holding, most things you just cant learn from the game itself - you might stumble into them randomly but considering how vast WF has become you might never do. There is no direction whatsoever and WF is unplayable without wiki. And its not just for new players - returning old players will not find some of the new content without others telling them. You open the game as see the same dull navigation screen which may seem like there is still nothing to do. Thats why WF cant grow playerbase.  DE burns millions on creating content that most people will not even find, because they cant string it all together and make it easily discoverable via the game itself.

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7 hours ago, Tuli_Donitsi said:

Game isn't doing its job well which is educating players if they must use sources that are outside of the game.

 

I've heard this argument repeated and it's BS. It's simply being lazy. 

Any game with any degree of complexity is going to require you to do some research if you want be good at it--that or a whole lot of individual experimentation. 

At some point you have to want to play the game and if you don't then you don't play. 

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3 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

I've heard this argument repeated and it's BS. It's simply being lazy. 

Any game with any degree of complexity is going to require you to do some research if you want be good at it--that or a whole lot of individual experimentation. 

At some point you have to want to play the game and if you don't then you don't play. 

Theres a difference about being good at the gema and uderstandting how some basic core system or what to do next. The later is the big problem that require more tutorial in game and shouldn have you to go to a wiki to understand. 

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