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New player hand holding needed.


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8 hours ago, Hayrack said:

First thing newbies should consult is wiki https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/WARFRAME_Wiki . In about a month I learned everything I needed to know how to progress, acquire and improve.

Wiki is awesome source of information how to play the game even better youtube
Problem is that we dont play wiki or youtube we play warframe

When you buy vacuum cleaner and its not enough self explanatory to the point you need to look online how to use it because no manual was included then something is wrong here

But on other hand do we really want a game that tells you "press space to jump" old games didnt have tutorials and there was no internet and somehow we managed
Problem with warframe is not with lack of information or that they are covered under menus but that its not enough intuitive 

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If one needs someone to hold their hand to play a video game, I postulate that individual needs to find a video game more their speed, vs having someone else rush them through the game, holding their hand.

How is basically thinking for someone else so they don't have to bother a good thing, at all?

The entire premise is totally flawed.

Edited by Zimzala
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27 minutes ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

You could at least credit the correct person.  Valentina Paz

9gag is just a site where random people repost things.

Completed. Thank you! I was running on auto-pilot and didn't think about it :facepalm:

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6 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

In my experience, I have notice that new players don't stay long in the game after receiving helps from veterans players. Perhaps it is because the sense of the hardship and achievement being taken away, resulting very little thrill left.

Some of new players also get really attach and needy after getting help. That's why I stopped helping new players. New players and veteran are hard to make friends because they don't play the game at the same level.

IMO the best way help new players is just point them to Warframe wiki.

I learned this as well. Warframe is about experience and the game is MASSIVELY rewarding in that sense. Just pointing to the codex and telling them to focus on clearing the junctions has been a remarkable success with getting the new kids started. In contrast, showing them stuff quickly turned them into gear hunters, ignoring the journey and leading them to the youtuber end gamers and guiders. They regret knowing the full game before actually discovering it.

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19 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I learned this as well. Warframe is about experience and the game is MASSIVELY rewarding in that sense. Just pointing to the codex and telling them to focus on clearing the junctions has been a remarkable success with getting the new kids started. In contrast, showing them stuff quickly turned them into gear hunters, ignoring the journey and leading them to the youtuber end gamers and guiders. They regret knowing the full game before actually discovering it.

This is my direct experience.

I had a player try and treat my like their new chew toy and explain, at length with multiple paragraphs, tons of data I could just read in the Internet if I chose over having to stop actually playing to read chat and act nice.

I left the game for months, because every time I logged on "Hey have not seen you in a while, how can I bother you today, I am bored"...

Vets stalking newbies is a plague here IMO.

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10 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

 he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are

I'm starting to wonder if new players have a thing called an eyesight. For real, i never had trouble progressing through the starchart because you literally just have to l o o k. 

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12 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I learned this as well. Warframe is about experience and the game is MASSIVELY rewarding in that sense. Just pointing to the codex and telling them to focus on clearing the junctions has been a remarkable success with getting the new kids started. In contrast, showing them stuff quickly turned them into gear hunters, ignoring the journey and leading them to the youtuber end gamers and guiders. They regret knowing the full game before actually discovering it.

being confused about what to do after ranking a frame to 30, then figuring out ways to increase my power through experimentation and self research is what got me initially hooked to warframe. It was so fulfilling to feel like i hit a wall progression wise, then have my eyes open up to a ton more possibilities without it being spoonfed to me. 

I think most of the basics are already covered in the game. A player will discover the depth when they are ready. 

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The biggest problem is that after Vors Prize, which is a solid tutorial and introduction to the various systems, All guidance just stops dead. 

Something DE could consider is making the Starchart itself a Quest. Not a deep cinematic one, Just one that leads the player through clearing nodes and junctions. Even something as simple as Lotus popping up and saying "more information can be found in the Codex, should you require it" would help. 

Yes, There is a ton to discover and the enjoyment of finding new things is great but the game needs to do a better job in telling people there is something out there to discover at all. 
Having system tutorials take the form of guided quests introduces new players to the system in a way that isn't just a boring infodump in the codex they aren't told has the information they need. 
And telling someone to go read a wiki before playing the game is the absolute worst thing you can do for player retention. Who really enjoys reading a game manual these days?

Upgrading mods for example. This could be done as a short questline where Ordis asks if you remember how to upgrade mods, then guides you to a quest where an Endo cache can be found, then using it to upgrade a mod. 
This does 2 things. It organically introduces Mod Upgrading and the Resource you need to find in order to do it. 

On reaching Rank 30 in a Frame or Weapon, Ordis could pipe up with a Quest introducing Forma and how it can be used to increase your power as well as providing a hook for a player to begin Void Missions by providing a pile of Relics containing Forma Blueprints and directing them to the Void Missions. 
Teaches the new player how to Polarize, what purpose it serves and how to obtain more Forma outside the market with the side effect of showing them the way to get Prime Parts.  

Speaking of the market, an early introductory quest that asks the player to open the market and purchase a weapon blueprint with credits to organically introduce a player to the fact that the Market can be used to buy weapons and frame blueprints with Credits, despite the Platinum indicators.
Not all f2p shops work like that. At first glance, it appears that ALL new gear comes exclusively from Platinum, which drives people away. 

By making such tutorials into quests, you give players the option to do the quest to learn or ignore it and figure it out themselves. 

The early game needs to be easily understood in order to hook the player into reaching deeper. As it stands, 60% of people who've tried Warframe on Steam have quit by the first hour. Thats not an asspull number, Those are the steam stats for the 2 Hours Played Achievement.

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Lol.

Honestly surprised at the number of veteran players in this thread who seem to think the new player experience is OK, based purely on their own personal experience of them finding it OK.

The NPE in wf is awful.  Saying "just use the codex" is daft considering how lacking it is in content.   Saying "stop playing and go look up the wiki online" is not helpful, players want to play.   

Dont get me wrong, I dont think it's possible for the game to explain everything.  And having some self discovery is really great.   But wf dumps you in your orbiter at the end of the starter mission with pretty much no direction whatsoever. 

There's a number of reasons why the majority of new players quit early on, and the feeling of being completely lost is a big one.    It would benefit everyone if more new players stuck with the game - easier to get squads, more vibrant community, better trading, more money for de so more/better updates and more.  Telling them to basically go read stuff and stop whining isn't good for anybody. 

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I've held the hand of a few players before. 3 to be exact.

I've explained briefly, just the starting systems like Bullet Jump and modding and fusion cores (yes, it was that long ago). Helped with the first starting planet, gave them a Goldtato as a gift and let them be.

They didnt play since that day.

Havent given any "handholding" since. Just the basics.

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14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Telling them to basically go read stuff and stop whining isn't good for anybody. 

Neither is basically taking them by the hand and playing the game for them just because you want a buddy to play with...

Again, to many of us, puzzle solving how things work in a virtual world is an important part of a good game, because it's engaging our brains, over just being told how it all works leaving no mystery with no effort at all on the players part over clicking.

@Reitrix, that Steam data means nothing, none of that data is reliable. This is a F2P game as well as no game can cater to all players, it's not possible.

Just because the game does not cater to players that want to be told what to do does not mean there is anything wrong, it just means the game does not appeal to those who want more direction.

My wife does not play open world games like Skyrim for this very reason, she prefers to have more rails. She does not ask for Skyrim to be changed, she just finds games that appeal to her tastes.

Of course all things have room for improvement, WF included, but the fact players have to figure things out is not inherently bad, it simply does not appeal to all gamers.

It not matter of 'go read, stop whining' it's a matter of 'part of this game is figuring things out, if that does not appeal to you, find a game you like'.

There is nothing wrong in that. No game can cater to all playstyles.

Edited by Zimzala
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6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Neither is basically taking them by the hand and playing the game for them just because you want a buddy to play with..

I agree, but you're taking it to the extreme.   There's a vast area in between where more could be done.

I also agree part of this game is figuring stuff out, and I like that tbh.   But there's too much to figure out all at once when you're new.   Having a better early level tutorial system of some kind would only be beneficial for the game.

And of course no game can cater to all playstyles.   That's a rather silly, typically forum-esque response that often gets trotted out whenever someone points out a shortcoming with the game.  Its basically saying, if you don't like it how it is, f off.  Instead of, hmmm, there's a bit of a problem here where a few things could be improved, let's see what we can do.

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37 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

The early game needs to be easily understood in order to hook the player into reaching deeper. As it stands, 60% of people who've tried Warframe on Steam have quit by the first hour. Thats not an asspull number, Those are the steam stats for the 2 Hours Played Achievement.

That still means that around 8 million players that have tried WF on Steam have stayed past the 2 hour mark, And that is if we use the old data from 2018 as the total Steam number. And this is if we should even find any interest in those 2 hours in a F2P game that anyone can simply download and test. It is no indication that it is because of the NPE, since the game can simply just not be for those players. It can be anything from the  controls, combat, leveling system, enemies, mods or whatever that can have turned them off from it as a whole.

Then there is the question regarding how many quit during which "era" of WF? Since WF has changed alot since 2013.

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4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That still means that around 8 million players that have tried WF on Steam have stayed past the 2 hour mark, And that is if we use the old data from 2018 as the total Steam number. And this is if we should even find any interest in those 2 hours in a F2P game that anyone can simply download and test. It is no indication that it is because of the NPE, since the game can simply just not be for those players. It can be anything from the  controls, combat, leveling system, enemies, mods or whatever that can have turned them off from it as a whole.

Then there is the question regarding how many quit during which "era" of WF? Since WF has changed alot since 2013.

I agree, the number who quit before the 2 hr mark doesn't really mean anything, there's just too many variables that could cause it.   I'd wager a huge number of players download it simply because it's free and are curious, then find it's not their cup of tea.   I doubt if a lack of an early tutorial system is that big a factor at this point cos its just too early to realise its even an issue.

It would be much more useful to know, say, how many quit before 40 hours, as by that point the complete lack of any tutorial system would likely be a larger factor.  Of course, its not possible to know a players reason for quitting for sure.

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Just now, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

I agree, the number who quit before the 2 hr mark doesn't really mean anything, there's just too many variables that could cause it.   I'd wager a huge number of players download it simply because it's free and are curious, then find it's not their cup of tea.   I doubt if a lack of an early tutorial system is that big a factor at this point cos its just too early to realise its even an issue.

It would be much more useful to know, say, how many quit before 40 hours, as by that point the complete lack of any tutorial system would likely be a larger factor.  Of course, its not possible to know a players reason for quitting for sure.

Yep, very true.

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20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

I agree, but you're taking it to the extreme.   There's a vast area in between where more could be done.

I also agree part of this game is figuring stuff out, and I like that tbh.   But there's too much to figure out all at once when you're new.   Having a better early level tutorial system of some kind would only be beneficial for the game.

And of course no game can cater to all playstyles.   That's a rather silly, typically forum-esque response that often gets trotted out whenever someone points out a shortcoming with the game.  Its basically saying, if you don't like it how it is, f off.  Instead of, hmmm, there's a bit of a problem here where a few things could be improved, let's see what we can do.

But 'too much' is just your opinion, not a 'fact'.

Would a segment of the population perhaps play the game longer with more hand holding by the game? Possibly.

Someone not liking a part of the game is just an opinion, it's not a definitive short coming.

I will never stop telling people "if you don't like a game, then don't play it, find another you do like" because that's just common sense.

Games are not social justice wars where the goal is to force the game maker to cater to every playstyle.

Let the game maker make their Art, enjoy it, or not, and move on...is that so hard?

I have typed several times that of course WF can improve, just like anything.

It remains to be seen that adding more hand holding is objectively an improvement, because the metrics by which that is defined do not exist, besides moving the bottom line ROI...the fiscal health of the game is what matters...if revising the NPE increases the bottom line, great!

I am telling no one to 'f off' - I am suggesting that if a game is not fun for them, rather than starting a SJW, perhaps they should just look for a more suitable game for themselves.

How is that 'bad'?

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Imagine needing to pitch hand holding in today's Warframe... LOL! 

Back in my day we got a "tutorial" that explained nothing, picked from 3 weapons you had no idea what some were and picked cause they look cool, and dumped into the game with a "good luck" wave.

And don't get me started on the inability to practice MR tests either. 

No login bonus, no teaching cyphers, no hints, no guides, and a very wacky UI. And flying with swords... 

 

Trust me, this version is SIGNIFICANTLY more new player friendly than days of old... just learn to read and you succeed. 

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1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

But 'too much' is just your opinion, not a 'fact'.

Would a segment of the population perhaps play the game longer with more hand holding by the game? Possibly.

Someone not liking a part of the game is just an opinion, it's not a definitive short coming.

I will never stop telling people "if you don't like a game, then don't play it, find another you do like" because that's just common sense.

Games are not social justice wars where the goal is to force the game maker to cater to every playstyle.

Let the game maker make their Art, enjoy it, or not, and move on...is that so hard?

I have typed several times that of course WF can improve, just like anything.

It remains to be seen that adding more hand holding is objectively an improvement, because the metrics by which that is defined do not exist, besides moving the bottom line ROI...the fiscal health of the game is what matters...if revising the NPE increases the bottom line, great!

I am telling no one to 'f off' - I am suggesting that if a game is not fun for them, rather than starting a SJW, perhaps they should just look for a more suitable game for themselves.

How is that 'bad'?

You seem to be getting a tad worked up, there's no need, I'm just trying to have a discussion.

I'm not stating anything as being "fact".  Of course its my opinion, just like what you've said is your opinion.  Thats all good.   Literally no one is starting a social justice war about this, thats ridiculous. 

I just find it odd that obviously experienced players don't think there's any need to improve the early experience players have, thereby helping player retention.   Not everyone will like wf, of course not, and if you don't like a game it's of course correct to play something else, thats so blindingly obvious it really doesn't need to be stated ad nauseum. 

I think the issue is that wf is losing a lot of players who may otherwise have become long-term, invested, players at an early stage because of the lack of direction.   After all, there's a lot of competition out there.  

If you don't agree, thats fine, all good.  But I would hope you'd agree that adding a few tutorials to aid players in understanding some of the core systems and mechanics wouldn't harm the game.  In my "opinion", that would only be a positive overall.

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

If you don't agree, thats fine, all good.  But I would hope you'd agree that adding a few tutorials to aid players in understanding some of the core systems and mechanics wouldn't harm the game.  In my "opinion", that would only be a positive overall.

"Could more tutorials provide more ROI for WF?"

That's the question, IMO.

You, personally, may not raise the SJW flag, but I see it raised all the time, from my POV, on these forums, by people who think since they play the game, the game runners should follow their designs and that DE 'does it all wrong' for not allowing mob rule, with this topic.

I have seen this topic raised constantly for the entire time I have played the game, while player numbers continued to increase.

It's not a matter of being for or against any improvements, it's matter of trying to link specific improvements to actual ROI.

As for the 'play another game' angle, I have been told I am a coward, a loser, and a failure at life in general for not wanting to take up the SJW against DE to 'force' them to obey the mob, over just telling that same mob to just play another game if WF does not please them, as if they have a universally assigned right to have DE cater to their whims, and anyone that does not fight DE is a life-coward-loser-sheep.

I totally agree WF can improve - but what metric do we use? Fiscal health? Personal outlook? Total player numbers?

To improve, we have to have a metric to measure...

I don't understand why people think passion and blunt honesty = 'worked up', but w/e.

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All I have to say to this is; think about the times when gamers didn't have access to guides and couldn't just pop some keywords to google to get help in matter of seconds when they were stuck. Part of the joy of gaming was to finally figure out the solution, get to the next part and start figuring that out.

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2 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

All I have to say to this is; think about the times when gamers didn't have access to guides and couldn't just pop some keywords to google to get help in matter of seconds when they were stuck. Part of the joy of gaming was to finally figure out the solution, get to the next part and start figuring that out.

I remember when Nintendo Power was basically our wiki ;)  Warframe is pretty easy to pick up with some time investment and logical thinking. I think as a new player it is pretty easy to get overwhelmed with the amount of stuff that’s thrown in your face fairly quickly, especially with the addition of the open worlds and railjack thrown in there now. 
 

I’m not sure how they would even go about implementing tutorials for everything. At some point, once the player has a basic grasp on things, you have to cut the cord 

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3 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

All I have to say to this is; think about the times when gamers didn't have access to guides and couldn't just pop some keywords to google to get help in matter of seconds when they were stuck. Part of the joy of gaming was to finally figure out the solution, get to the next part and start figuring that out.

Ah, pre-internet gaming.

Being someone who was around back then, I remember it well.  One of the things I also remember is that games were a lot simpler.  They also usually (but not always) game with little booklets that explained the few mechanics they did have.  On top of that, there was quite an industry in selling official guide books that went into a lot more depth.

Take a game like Half Life for example (not really pre Internet, but certainly not part of the gaas era either) (also, Half Life 3 when ffs).  One of the best games in history imo.  Very immersive, great story, great gameplay, great everything really.  Exceptionally easy to get into though, simple systems, and even despite its relative simplicity,  there were a plethora of guides published.

My point is, games have evolved and become drastically more complicated than those good old days.  And with that evolution comes the need for better explanation of how the games work.   Back then we had guide books, now we have google, same thing really.   However, the more a game can explain itself without expecting players to go off and do research in the wilds of the interwebs the better imo.

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25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

 

I think the issue is that wf is losing a lot of players who may otherwise have become long-term, invested, players at an early stage because of the lack of direction.   After all, there's a lot of competition out there.  

i dont know. I think if you need much more direction than whats given, you're probably NOT going to enjoy Warframe. There is ALWAYS going to be a wall a new player will slam against. At some point, if you arent the kind of player that likes to discover the game on their own, you're going to have to drop Warframe. 

Dont most players skip or in general hate tutorials anyway? 

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