New player hand holding needed.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Ah, pre-internet gaming.

Being someone who was around back then, I remember it well.  One of the things I also remember is that games were a lot simpler.  They also usually (but not always) game with little booklets that explained the few mechanics they did have.  On top of that, there was quite an industry in selling official guide books that went into a lot more depth.

Take a game like Half Life for example (not really pre Internet, but certainly not part of the gaas era either) (also, Half Life 3 when ffs).  One of the best games in history imo.  Very immersive, great story, great gameplay, great everything really.  Exceptionally easy to get into though, simple systems, and even despite its relative simplicity,  there were a plethora of guides published.

My point is, games have evolved and become drastically more complicated than those good old days.  And with that evolution comes the need for better explanation of how the games work.   Back then we had guide books, now we have google, same thing really.   However, the more a game can explain itself without expecting players to go off and do research in the wilds of the interwebs the better imo.

nah, games had complexity to them back then. We just bough guides instead of using Wikis. It wasnt uncommon to NOT know something about a game for years until a friend told you or you saw a "tip" in a magazine. 

[Kaotyke]

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)ZDragonLord X said:

Back in my day we got a "tutorial" that explained nothing, picked from 3 weapons you had no idea what some were and picked cause they look cool, and dumped into the game with a "good luck" wave.

Back in MY day, it was WORSE:

FEAST your eyes on the WHITE, BLINDING background.

 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i dont know. I think if you need much more direction than whats given, you're probably NOT going to enjoy Warframe. There is ALWAYS going to be a wall a new player will slam against. At some point, if you arent the kind of player that likes to discover the game on their own, you're going to have to drop Warframe. 

Dont most players skip or in general hate tutorials anyway? 

I agree to a point.  The self discovery in wf is great, I'm not advocating removing that really.  Everything shouldn't be explained.

As for tutorials not being liked, depends how its done really.  It doesn't have to be a quest, or some long list of tasks.   But a bit of an explanation would be good, for example when you open your relic station.  I.e., this is what a relic is, you get stuff when you open it, different parts have different drop chances, you can increase the drop chance using void traces which you get as a by product of opening them.  Now lets go look at your nav console and well show you where to find the missions you can do to open them.....etc.   A couple of minutes and its done and that new player now knows everything they need in order to find, refine, and open relics.   That might all seem bloody obvious to us, but it isn't necessarily obvious to a complete newbie.  And it does no harm.

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

12 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

nah, games had complexity to them back then. We just bough guides instead of using Wikis. It wasnt uncommon to NOT know something about a game for years until a friend told you or you saw a "tip" in a magazine. 

Oh yes they had complexity, but nothing like we have now, come on.   

You seriously can't compare the complexity of a game like Half Life, with a game like warframe - the technology simply didn't exist to create that complexity.

And yeah, sometimes you may not know something for ages like you said, but that happens in every walk of life.  You don't know what you don't know.

[Hypernaut1]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

I agree to a point.  The self discovery in wf is great, I'm not advocating removing that really.  Everything shouldn't be explained.

As for tutorials not being liked, depends how its done really.  It doesn't have to be a quest, or some long list of tasks.   But a bit of an explanation would be good, for example when you open your relic station.  I.e., this is what a relic is, you get stuff when you open it, different parts have different drop chances, you can increase the drop chance using void traces which you get as a by product of opening them.  Now lets go look at your nav console and well show you where to find the missions you can do to open them.....etc.   A couple of minutes and its done and that new player now knows everything they need in order to find, refine, and open relics.   That might all seem bloody obvious to us, but it isn't necessarily obvious to a complete newbie.  And it does no harm.

I agree. More intuitive tool tips would definitely help people. There are tons of things without even a basic description anywhere in game. This they need to work on, I'm not too sold on straight up tutorials though. 

[smashedwookie]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I agree. More intuitive tool tips would definitely help people. There are tons of things without even a basic description anywhere in game. This they need to work on, I'm not too sold on straight up tutorials though. 

Tutorial don't have to be that long to be good, they can just be a 1-2 sentence description of the different element being shown.

Like for example on the star chart they could just be an explanation of the mission type being shown in the different tabs. Yes its stuff that pretty obvious now, but when you just completed Vor's Prize and your basically asking yourself what now, there's still a few part of the systems on the ship that were never explained.

Don't need an essay on what they do but just making you go through each of the station you have not already interacted with as part of Vor's Prize and telling you what they do would already be better than what we have now.

Also could give them the uportunity to had some updated tutorials later down the road to explain stuff like kuva siphon/flood or /gasp kuva liches....

[LillyRaccune]

@[DE]CoreyOnline and/or @[DE]Megan Do you have any statistics you could share with us about new player usage?

I'm curious about the results of your NPEx experiment from a while ago too...

 

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, smashedwookie said:

 explain stuff like kuva siphon/flood or /gasp kuva liches....

I will say that figuring out kuva siphons as a community was a lot of fun. We didn't know what was going on and groups were just trying anything. 

That time has passed though, I'm not saying it would still be fun to a new player today. 

[smashedwookie]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I will say that figuring out kuva siphons as a community was a lot of fun. We didn't know what was going on and groups were just trying anything. 

That time has passed though, I'm not saying it would still be fun to a new player today. 

i wound give a full explanation on those siphon/flood, more something along the line of  "these mission have been added to this tab and are way to obtain kuva and kuva relics"

and for lich i would make it a warning that these are high lvl enemies that get progressively harder to begin with and explain the way they are spawn as clearly as possible. So many ppl still pop on even after the they made it so you need to hold to mercy the lichling...

Don't need full wiki page on each element being added as tutorial, but a bit of description wouldn't hurt.

[(XBOX)SwiftBMF]

14 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

Blasphemy...DE & Warframe are perfect in every way.

[[DE]CoreyOnline]

1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

@[DE]CoreyOnline do you have any statistics you could share with us about new player usage?

I'm curious about the results of your NPEx experiment from a while ago too...

 

Hi! We had hoped to be able to share the results of this experiment sooner, but we decided to extend it and run it on consoles as well. We can share learnings once it's 100% wrapped up. Thanks~ 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

15 hours ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I recently finished carrying a friend from mastery one to mastery 10 and all I can say is the game kind of needs hand holding like I get that it has tutorials and junctions and all that other stuff but like just a serious disconnect that a new player has an a veteran in terms of knowing what to do is just unbelievable. For example my friend didn't know that he had to craft items with blueprints you could buy in the marketplace, he didn't have any idea how to even reach junctions or what they are, there was really nothing telling him where to go or what to do so I'm wondering do you think the game could use just kind of a forced story like for example is just some kind of arbitrary storyline that helps you get from the beginning of the game all the way to the end of sedna while explaining mechanics as they come up and holding players hands essentially the entire way through. Any veteran player can say that the starting crunch is basically unbearable and it needs some kind of push.

You are correct. It does. At the same time, DE doesn't care and a segment of the playerbase doesn't either. The fact that they bring up a third party resource (e.g., the wiki) shows how flawed their own arguments are. This is the playerbase DE listens to so nothing will change. Also, in regards to DE, they don't really work on things unless they can monetize it somehow. So unless they can monetize revamping the early game of Warframe they won't really bother.

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

You've done more harm than good with hand holding, inform them what to do if they're confused not carry them everywhere

People already pointing to the codex or discovering things yourself which is more fun I think, it's what I did.

My friends said that if I didn't help them they wouldn't be playing. 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

My friends said that if I didn't help them they wouldn't be playing. 

You did good. The game did bad.

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

You did good. The game did bad.

I mean on ps4 80% of players don't even make it to 10 hours... Maybe they need help right? 

[Sazero]

Sounds to me more like people just don't like playing warframe. Which is fine. No one should be forced to play something they don't like. There is nothing about beginner warframe that is particularly complex.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.

[Unerbroken]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I mean on ps4 80% of players don't even make it to 10 hours... Maybe they need help right? 

Well... more or less, since warframe does give "alot" of content, isn't feels like content for new players, take Helminth like an example, peope back in the first update needed to drop ALOT of resources to use it, it took some time to DE realize that wasn't the best move, then it got reajusted for new players, my only concern is, warframe it is... they're making content that pleases some, and leaves a sour taste in others, but most of all, they're overwhelming new players, and that's bad for any kind of game that wants to attract new people.

That may explain why 80% of players don't make 10 hrs, well... that and plat, since at start, there's no players giving tips.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

I mean on ps4 80% of players don't even make it to 10 hours... Maybe they need help right? 

Yup. 19% of players have the play for 10 hours  "It Keeps Getting Better" trophy. For finishing The Sacrifice: 3.3%.

[(XBOX)theKINGdra01]

Kinda just want to add my 2 cents to this conversation. I'm very lucky I'm a huge Wiki nerd and happened to find the Warframe wiki trying to look things up, but I know other people aren't that interested in learning all there is to know about a game; both my sister and brother hate looking up guides, for example, so they fell out of Warframe after a while and are only invested when new story quests release. Regardless tho, I think a good first step would be for the game itself to direct you to the Warframe Wiki, because in the game's current state, the Wiki is required.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, (PSN)EmilsTekcor said:

My friends said that if I didn't help them they wouldn't be playing. 

That sounds more like the game simply may not be to their liking to start with and changing it to include more hand holding wouldn't change that. 

I don't mean that in a negative way, some games just don't pull a person in for a variety of reasons.  

[Caobie]

i think the biggest thing that warframe doesnt do for new plays is explain the systems like at all. if you ask a new player what mods are and how to use them theyll probably be able to tell you but if you ask them how to make their mods better you might get a reaction to the effect of "you can make them better?!" this is how its been for any new player ive helped through the early stages and thats just 1 system that doesnt get explained and that one is a BIG part of the game. another system that while not as essential to the game as mods are is still quite valuable is the gear wheel. pretty sure theres nothing that actually explains that.

these 2 problems are easily solved by giving a new player a simple quest much like the ascaris negator one that at least teaches that the foundry exists and how it works in theory. a simple mission of go get this fixed amount of endo, use said endo to upgrade a mod, equip mod (bonus points for having them equip the mod into a specific polarization or having them equip the mod and then move it to a specific polarization). boom mod system shown and taught to the point that at the very least it is no longer 100% the games fault for them not knowing that it at least exists. no it doesnt get very deep but it would teach what endo is, what its used for, and what upgrading mods does which are all things the game currently doesnt do a very good job of.

 

and this goes for any and all new systems that are implemented. as a veteran player i have the luxury of taking in information and systems as they come out but i would not be against a tutorial for each system even if its short and text based. it just needs to be in the game and not outside of it like following the dev streams when they show off a new system. we get a tutorial then but then where is that in game and if you missed it its not like those streams are categorized by anything other than number and the further from release you get the harder they get to dig through to find the one thing....i dunno maybe ive gone off on a tangent but im done now lol

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

4 hours ago, MagPrime said:

That sounds more like the game simply may not be to their liking to start with and changing it to include more hand holding wouldn't change that. 

I don't mean that in a negative way, some games just don't pull a person in for a variety of reasons.  

Dude, I love this game; you are being ridiculous though. They are playing the game still and very much enjoy it 

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

5 hours ago, Sazero said:

Sounds to me more like people just don't like playing warframe. Which is fine. No one should be forced to play something they don't like. There is nothing about beginner warframe that is particularly complex.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink.

They like Warframe, but if I hadn't helped them they would've stopped playing as they didn't know how to proceed.

[Sazero]

Do your friends not have agency of their own? I have never heard of this. Anyone who takes an interest into something will pursue it on their own.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

I agree to a point.  The self discovery in wf is great, I'm not advocating removing that really.  Everything shouldn't be explained.

As for tutorials not being liked, depends how its done really.  It doesn't have to be a quest, or some long list of tasks.   But a bit of an explanation would be good, for example when you open your relic station.  I.e., this is what a relic is, you get stuff when you open it, different parts have different drop chances, you can increase the drop chance using void traces which you get as a by product of opening them.  Now lets go look at your nav console and well show you where to find the missions you can do to open them.....etc.   A couple of minutes and its done and that new player now knows everything they need in order to find, refine, and open relics.   That might all seem bloody obvious to us, but it isn't necessarily obvious to a complete newbie.  And it does no harm.

Everything you said about the relic system is displayed in game. The relics show you what they contain, and their relative rarity. One of the early junctions literally instructs you to upgrade a relic. One early even makes you open 3.

For people that aren’t equipped to understand the system, a single pop up is going to do anything to clear up that confusion.

When i started Warframe, I started with friends who were also new. There was very little that stumped us, it’s all laid out quite intuitively.

Steve addresses this in the No clip documentary actually;

Steve explains that they’ve retooled the new player experience over and over again, and that it’s never affects their wash out rate.

He talks about how a friend of his even told him “I tried playing your game, but I got to the bench with the mods and stuff and I’m just not smart enough to play this game.”

Steve rounded that off with saying;

”Players are smart. They see these systems, they see the complexity and they know it’s going to take some research-“

There really isn’t anything in warframe that is that complicated, and the early game is designed to facilitate experimentation and discovery.

DE already know their is nothing they can do to onboard more players, they’ve tried. DE know there’s little they can do to teach the game to people who don’t understand it, again they’ve tried.

What you’re advocating for, is just going to turn away the prospective players that would’ve appreciated a game that respected their intelligence.

The early games served as a fitting pilot episode for everything that comes next. It lets the players know they will actually have to use their brains. Which, while some of them might not be used to it, they are completely capable of doing.