I feel Wukong has a worse rep than Limbo now

[Skye_Archer]

Wukong is no way close to having a bad rep as Limbo...

Wukong you can play badly and no one will care. You play Limbo badly, people will leave your group mid mission if not at the very moment they see a Limbo at a start of a mission. The only time I don't see people leaving a group immediately when playing Limbo, is on excavations or on a mission to find caches. Otherwise I would probably see around four in five people joining a group which contains a Limbo leave! I've yet to notice anyone leave a group because someone has played Wukong badly

[TARINunit9]

21 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

As for Wukong my dislike towards it is because its a very overpowered frame after its rework, having the ability to self revive multiple times, a almost permanent lasting specter with double damage and that allows for easy afk play, a mobility skill that allows players to complete skip the whole map and a skill that grants him invulnerability.

Its so easy to acquire and became so heavily encrusted into the meta that you can easily find new players using him and ignoring the rest of the arsenal to just use weapons like the Acceltra or Bramma.

Wukong is the new Rhino

In the past, Rhino was a stereotypical "new player crutch" thanks to Iron Skin and Roar supposedly falling off at higher levels. Wukong is all of that and then some. I can tell you firsthand playing with newbie clanmates (they use exactly what you said, Wukong + Acceltra) his free "cheat death three times" passive makes for VERY bad habits among early-game players

And the worst part, is that Wukong is still a good frame. He does everything Nyx can do but better. His absorb is better, his AI companion is better, basically his entire kit is better. All Nyx has going for her is armor strip, which Hildryn Helminth can give to any frame now

[Kraethius]

Cloud Walker is more or less the reason Wukong's by far the most played frame. It is:

1. An invulnerability ability

2. A healing ability

3. A movement ability

4. An invisibility ability

5. And passes through barriers as well.

That's just way too much for a single ability. Add an afk-enabling clone and you get threads like this.

[PsiWarp]

I see Wukongs everywhere like I saw Rhinos everywhere once upon a time. As long as their Wuclones leave some enemies for me to kill, I don't mind them being my squadmates.

Leechers I can't stand however. Limbos, it depens on what the player does in mission.

[Azamagon]

I honestly don't get the bad rep for Wukong at all. Actually, I don't think I've ever encountered a single afk Wukong (and even if they would, the clone would make it less of an issue anyway).

But a bad Limbo player, moreso if used in a mission where he has no real strength, those can grind my gears a tad. At least if I also happen to be using a Warframe with no/weak directly damaging abilities. But if they do play poorly, just asking them nicely to please stop spamming his 1 and/or 3 has helped in almost every case - as most players aren't trolls, just ignorant of how Limbo works (which honestly I can't really blame them for). In fact, most people seem to be so gentle with Limbo's powers that I've had to ask them to Banish me if I'm using a Warframe which can use it well (Like Mesa, Titania, Ash etc).

TL;DR: Wukong is totally fine. Limbo just needs some teamplay-changes, that's it.

[_junguler]

i only started playing wukong (prime) again because i recently farmed my first kuva weapons (nukor) and went thru the trouble of getting it to 60% (5 nukors later) and it's quite fun seeing it in action used by the clone. it's still less capable of killing stuff than my protea or octavia prime but it's not always about efficiency.

as for limbo in my experience playing 1500 hours there was only one instance of someone giving the team an issue and it turned out to be a new player which wasn't familiar with the powers yet and what they do and to his credit he stopped doing it as soon as we told him about it. i'm sure your experience is different than mine but i never had any issues with someone deliberately wanting to give us a bad time.

[Sloan441]

4 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

You're describing a generic situation with semantics covered not only by several other frames far more efficiently, but by helminth and operators as well. He bring nothing to the table other than "I don't feel like actually playing today, let's just limbo it"

Nevertheless, that stuff works. 

Not particularly interested in efficiency. As Elmer Keith said, "Efficiency be damned, it's results that count."

The rest has no bearing on the results. 

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

You're describing a generic situation with semantics covered not only by several other frames far more efficiently, but by helminth and operators as well. He bring nothing to the table other than "I don't feel like actually playing today, let's just limbo it"

This isn't entirely accurate, just like, 3/4 accurate. Maybe 4/5ths

Limbo does have some genuinely fun and dynamic play with his low-duration playstyle, and it's even less disruptive than his regular rift durations because if a Limbo misses a target, it's at worst riftside for 6-ish seconds.

The main problem with that is that it has all the utility of a dead fish and about as much stopping power too. Annoyingly, it's the complete opposite to Stasis Limbo. In that low duration is fun, but really, it has so little purpose that it's barely more than a gimmick, as opposed to Stasis highly effective if you can avoid dying of boredom. You can't even spice low-duration up with Helminth powers because the overwhelming majority of them benefit from long duration - and those that don't are, like, Shock for the most part.

[Tuli_Donitsi]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's to get the timer started. We already know there will be stragglers. We just need 2 people to start the timer. Plus it's just fun to speed. You memorize the tileset to avoid bad curves lol

Even then you may win 5-10 seconds at best. I don't see any point because usually last player reach the extraction before timer ends.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Tuli_Donitsi said:

Even then you may win 5-10 seconds at best. I don't see any point because usually last player reach the extraction before timer ends.

When you run enough it's about being prepared for that 1 out of 10 chance you get the afk person or really slow person. But yea most of the time it's fine.

[Cmdr-A]

I'm usually a solo only / friends only player. But the past two or so weeks I've been doing Steel Path publicly to farm out arcanes. Every Wukong player I've seen just brings explosive weapons and lets their Celestial Twin do everything. Then when theres no enemies they just Cloudwalk to the next batch let their Celestial Twin do the killing and move on. In normal non endless missions they tend to speed through missions leaving nothing alive leaving it pointless for them to even pub since the same effect can be achieved by them playing solo. Most people play the game to actually..you know, kill things? If their aimbotting CT is just killing everything and they rush through the mission, it kills the fun. Just as much as Mirages with their Hall of Mirrors up with explosive weapons as well. But this is about Wukong and the players I've experienced with them the past several nights, not Mirage.

Doing Steel Path Incursions publicly since I've been having bad luck getting them to spawn in solo. And my experience is I've seen more Wukongs than you can shake a stick at. They let their CT do the work and rush to the end and sit there waiting for everyone to join to leave instead of trying to bring out one Acolyte before extracting. Had one just tonight everyone in squad kept asking to get out of extraction zone after a second person activated extraction timer but stepped out. The Wukong player just sat there afk and timed the extraction timer out before an Acolyte could spawn. I already dislike seeing Wukongs in missions because from my experience so far, its the same result every time I've encountered any the past few nights now. Seems going back to playing solo/friends only exclusively in all of WF seems the likeliest of cases.

The other night had a defense Steel Path Incursion. Me and another player asked for the kills to be slower to give the Acolyte time to spawn. Two Wukongs fill slot 3 and 4 and have explosive weapons and finish the waves so fast. The Acolyte starts sending their spawn messages after Mission Complete pops up because it went too fast. Neither of the players acknowledged our pleas to quit killing so fast so we could also get an Acolyte before the mission ends since its only 5 short waves on the Ceres defense tile.

So I'd definitely say this is a thing thats happening. I've experienced it multiple times in multiple missions in a row. Ones an anomaly, twos a trend. This goes above and beyond that. This kinda thing is what'll force me back into playing solo only again.

[Soy77]

Banshee's job is to highlight enemies weakness so the team can do more damage and eventually kill them enemies.

Trinity's job is to buff the team, keep health and energy topped up so they can kill enemies.

Some dps frames like mesa or saryn works on-site, real time, actually killing the enemies. These are the easiest jobs to understand.

 

I see wukong player's job is to make a good build and weapons so the twin can actually contribute good damage to kill enemies. Think of them like the logistics in the army. Most of their job is not during the war itself, but actually on preparation before the war.

But of course there are also suck wukong players who just want to afk with trash builds.

No worries, though. He's vaulted now so that number will eventually go down.

[Wolfwaffe]

As a jaded and tired veteran player who wants nothing more than to grab his converted liches and sisters, his railjack and rail the yay out of the Origin system to who-knows-where because yay that noise, I don't give a yay about wukong players.

Oh no, wukong just carried us through non-endless steel path incursion mission and sits on the extraction. What horror. We didn't even had the acolite spawn. Oh no. Whatever we're going to do without 2 rubick-cubicks and a cancercane.

Oh no, wukong and/or his clone are killing everything. What am I going to do. I guess I'll do exactly what I did when mesa and ash were killing everything.

Oh no, wukong is gotta go fast. Oh no, wukong no dies. Oh no, wukipong self-heals. Don't care.

Hell, I once had a fight against exploiter orb. Four wukongs. Four clones. With wings. Insert Oz reference here.

[GPrime96]

On 2021-08-08 at 3:44 PM, WH1735S0W said:

Limbo tends to have a very bad rep in Warframe for being obnoxious to play with. Nowadays I've been saying more negativity towards Wukong. While I personally do not have have a bias towards Wukong or Limbo. I can understand seeing the same Warframe over and over again can rub people the wrong way, and I have been seeing more Wukong than Limbo.

 

The common complaints I see are that the people playing him are toxic (which is subjective), being afk and his twin getting in the way. Though I've only met two toxic Wukongs and I feel that is a fault of the player not the Warframe. I would also not say they are AFK unless they are 100% not moving. As for his twin, it killed my synthesis target once but I often forget it is even there.

 

As for what I actually think of Wukong and his players. I mean he does... stuff. He shoots things and cloud walks, other than that I do not see anything too crazy. I almost never see him use his stick though. The only thing I do not like about Wukong is the sound of his cloud walker ability, which I find kind of annoying. Yet I understand this is out of the player's control. I can't just ask them to stop moving fast since that is silly.

 

How do you feel about this?

Wukong is something i wouldn't mind if the Player used his CloudWalker Augment for Squads. Besides that, he's pretty much the same as a Limbo spamming his passive rift while using FireWalker.

[Sammonoske]

Are we running out of ideas on what warframe to complain about? It's like saying Rhino has a bad rep because he used stomp and forced you to aim up a little. Wukong's kit is literally incapable of bothering anyone, besides maybe afk Wuclone.

[0_The_F00l]

I personally dislike Wukong as he is right now for multiple reasons,

Encouraging brain dead AFK playstyles is one of them ,

But i do not blame the players that use it (unless they use explosive weapons with bright lights , then i hate the player for different reasons),

i blame DE for making a game that is so grind heavy with multiple obstructions and then enabling a means to completely bypass most of it with barely any cost.

 

Whenever i see a wukong in a squad (usually accompanied by an explosive weapon), i always get this opinion of "oh great, this guy is just gonna rush ahead and leave others to play catch up" , i dont like this feeling, So i play public very rarely on missions that are not a quick in and out, too bad for those players that want to enjoy an actual squad experience i guess.

If i can choose a public lobby that is NOT speed running i would pick it , but since i cant then Solo it is.

 

In short i dont hate Wukong so much as players dependency on him, almost like a crutch.

[-Vahagn-]

1 hour ago, Sammonoske said:

Are we running out of ideas on what warframe to complain about?

Care to show me where I complained?

  

1 hour ago, Sammonoske said:

It's like saying Rhino has a bad rep

Even though he kind of does, he is considered by many to be a "noob" frame. Which is definitely not a good stigma to have.

Yet if someone actually calls someone a noob for using Rhino that is immature and I do not agree with it. Just like I find people calling Wukong afk to be silly.

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Whenever i see a wukong in a squad (usually accompanied by an explosive weapon), i always get this opinion of "oh great, this guy is just gonna rush ahead and leave others to play catch up”

I feel the same for random Gauss except they do that with Mach Rush and their 3rd Ability.

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

If wukong player afking  hes copy stopping also. 

[Fallen77]

This really doesn't make sense.

Wuclone getting in the way ? How ? When does that EVER happen ?

Wukong players afk ? I have seen exactly the same amount of afkers all frames included. The wastes of air that afk generally don't have the investment nor the intelligence to be efficient while afking.

Finally, people being annoyed at seeing the same frame all the time ? Really ? I have not seen a single guy complaining something like that in game, and I play a lot of wukong, and I have seen my share of idiots.

 

And saying that he has the same rep as limbo.... Limbo ??!!??!! Do you really understand the magnitude of what you're saying op ?

We're talking about a frame that has several tools to stop his teammates from playing. I will quit everytime I see an idiotic max range limbo in defense and such, meanwhile I can't even think of a situation that would make me leave because of a wukong...

[(PSN)Visdomsord]

When I was new (well I'm still pretty new compared to a lot of players) he was my first Prime frame and he made me really enjoy the game, loved playing without melee weapon. Now I hardly use him anymore as he is not much of a team player. IMO he is probably one of the best Solo frames, he makes the game easy. That said I understand why players dislike him, I do too sometimes he is quite egoistical since he is faster than everyone else with his cloud paired with a Kuva Brama for his Celestial Twin not much can stand in his way.

All of his abilities are solo based and he doesn't buff others unless he got his staff helminthed. I'd say he is the perfect newbie character, very versatile can do pretty much anything except sharing the fun. I enjoyed playing him but nowadays my preference is definitely wisp as she is much more team friendly.

[KnightOwl_]

14 hours ago, Sammonoske said:

Are we running out of ideas on what warframe to complain about? It's like saying Rhino has a bad rep because he used stomp and forced you to aim up a little. Wukong's kit is literally incapable of bothering anyone, besides maybe afk Wuclone.

I think the OP is less complaining than insinuating that Wukong with a meta weapon like Bramma is the warframe equivalent of the squidsworths ordering meme.  Which to be honest, is true.  

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Never seen an obnoxious Wukong. Limbo on the otherhand can send a mission to a screeching halt. 

The comparison is extremely poor. Limbo needs a rework, badly. Wukong is a credit to his team. 

[(XBOX)ScooterLaroo]

I play Wukong Prime a lot, rarely, if ever, do I sit back and let my clone do any damage on it's own, cause frankly, it loves to reload more than it can shoot. I can put the Trumna on it, it fires 3 shots, then reloads, it's extremely ineffective in combat.

A lot of people are claiming he is an AFK frame, he isn't. If people have such an issue with AFK frames then why not hate Octavia who's only thing she does is spam two buttons? Or Vauban who just spams one? Wukong's Clone is only as OP as you can make it and depends entirely upon your build. If I'm in a high level mission my clone gets killed near instantly since I build him to have armor and not health because my Wukong needs the armor and not the strength (the more strength you have the more health your clone will have).

So Wukong hate seems very subjective as I've rarely seen any Wukong players just sitting there letting their clone do all the work. In fact, of all the Wukong players I've met, all of them move around a lot and rarely stay in the same spot at once.

As for his 3 bonuses after dying, it makes sense why he has that. He's basically meant to be one of the most aggressive Warframes in the entire game. Other Warframes can sit back most of the time and deal with enemies from afar because they don't have healing or something similar to help with survivability. Wukong on the other hand...

1. His first ability is the clone, which everyone seems to hate because they think it's the "AFK" button, when it isn't, you really need to focus on that clone because it has the intelligence of the defense target in Sorties. But other than that, they gain a weapon with your mods on it, so if you run something like the Kuva Zarr with a good build, you're good to go.

2. Cloud Walker: Health and a few seconds of invulnerability once you actually turn into the cloud. Quick movement and fast healing. Perfect for a frame meant to be up-close and personal with the enemy.

3. Defy: Armor and damage output. Once again, perfect and basically requires Wukong to be in the front lines against a large group of enemies to gain the best of his buff.

4. Primal Fury: A melee weapon, like for a Warframe meant to be up close and personal and on the front lines with the enemy.

All of his abilities make him basically perfect to be in front of the enemy and in the action.

Much like Valkyr.

So I guess people play him wrong (Play him like Vauban or Protea or Saryn or Frost or Defensive Gara or Octavia)

But of course, this is just my theory and how I play him. I play him like I think he should be played, very aggressively, constantly moving and taking the enemy by surprise. Hit and run, that sort of thing.

As for Limbo... yeah he is a very complicated Warframe. Amazing for defense, but if there is no communication (like 90% of all Warframe lobbies) then he is going to sour a lot of people's opinion on the Warframe if they're not good at it.

[Joezone619]

With limbo his tediousness comes down to game mechanics and how the quest introduces him.

The quest says little to nothing about how his abilities actually work, leaving new players confused, and as they grow more experience, the confusion of limbo stays with them, unless they've gone out of their way to understand and/or play him.

And you have the game mechanics, limbo needs a lot of small tweaks to make him more "environment friendly" in game. The biggest of which being that they need to give enemies/allies a better indication that they are in the rift, small black fire that isn't visible 99% of the time doesn't cut it, nor does a slight lighting saturation change.
The second biggest would have to be nullifiers and cataclysm. Nullifiers shouldn't just instantly pop the cataclysm the moment it brushes up against it, it should be able to overlap the cataclysm and unbanish the enemies in the nullifier's bubble.

Limbo also needs a lot of smaller things to make him practical enough to be worth trying for new players, such as picking up items through the rift, and a method of entering/exiting the rift without moving (without needing to roll and lose your aim, missing your target).

There are also enemies and objects that aren't affected/can't enter the rift, when they should like rampards, blunts, and probably even arbitration drones, at least in a cataclysm, as they can't be damaged in the rift, even if they are in a cataclysm, leading the squad to hate on the limbo for trying to use whats suppose to be his ultimate ability.

In short, DE needs to go fix up some of limbo's stuff for him to be up to speed with new frames. Not a rework, just fixing problems hes had almost, if not, since his release.