Bane mods , are there any plans to make them universal?

[Parcialsobriedad]

We have the option to equip them individually but why not make them universal as to not make them much of a hassle to equip them regardless of mission.

Blah blah blah , mandatory mods ,blah blah blah , little changes like these will add to a better modding experience overall for new and veteran players alike and it makes sense rather than being unconvenient to keep switching between loadouts depending on faction.

 

tl dr:

We have banes , we can equip them , therefore we have access to its damage increase if we choose to, therefore hiding them behind an inconvenience is that , unconvenient . 

Editerino added tldr and some spelling mistakerinos

[DarknessNightshade]

Personally, I'm against this idea. Faction mods are calculated as damage bonuses after every other calculation, making them pretty overpowered. The little effort it takes to swap your config is well worth the damage increase, and on paper, the increase is not strictly necessary for most powerful weapons. 

Faction mods are accessible to all players too, they drop pretty regularly from trash mobs, and even Baro offers an upgrade for practically free. 

They're not strictly mandatory for optimal DPS, either, I've made a previous post detailing exactly how it would affect a Kuva Bramma vs a Braton, Braton suffers because it lacks the base stats to take advantage of the Faction mods, and so would most early game guns new players have access to (outside of maybe Bows that have decent CC/CD).

As far as I'm concerned, the modding scene regarding faction mods should stay as it is.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

As far as I'm concerned, the modding scene regarding faction mods should stay as it is.

But why? It is 100% pointless to keep them seperate as the game is because you only face more than 1 faction at a time in trivial missions like crossfire and in fissures.

They can simply make a single Bane mod and call it a day since it would have the exact same effect and not require pointless arsenal interaction over and over. If anything, keep the seperate bane mods and then when you have all you can fuse them into Bane or Primed Bane depending on which mods you have all of. It would be a massive QoL that really changes nothing out of a gameplay or power perspective.

[-skimmer-]

29 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

We have the option to equip them individually but why not make them universal as to not make them much of a hassle to equip them regardless of mission.

Blah blah blah , mandatory mods ,blah blah blah , little changes like these will add to a better modding experience overall for new and veteran players alike and it makes sense rather than being unconvenient to keep switching between loadouts depending on faction.

You are describing Serration.

[Am_Sha3gar]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why? It is 100% pointless to keep them seperate as the game is because you only face more than 1 faction at a time in trivial missions like crossfire and in fissures.

They can simply make a single Bane mod and call it a day since it would have the exact same effect and not require pointless arsenal interaction over and over. If anything, keep the seperate bane mods and then when you have all you can fuse them into Bane or Primed Bane depending on which mods you have all of. It would be a massive QoL that really changes nothing out of a gameplay or power perspective.

Because really powerful things gotta have a drawback, and a unique multiplier is so powerful that having to juggle them between missions is a suitable drawback.

On a separate note we just got rid of needing to put base damage mods on everything, do we really want to replace them for literally the exact same thing two seconds later?

[DarknessNightshade]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why? It is 100% pointless to keep them seperate as the game is because you only face more than 1 faction at a time in trivial missions like crossfire and in fissures.

They can simply make a single Bane mod and call it a day since it would have the exact same effect and not require pointless arsenal interaction over and over. If anything, keep the seperate bane mods and then when you have all you can fuse them into Bane or Primed Bane depending on which mods you have all of. It would be a massive QoL that really changes nothing out of a gameplay or power perspective.

Because adding every Bane mod to a weapon would simply be a universal damage increase rather than the intended per faction damage increase, which isn't exactly great for balancing when early game weapons are meant to be sort of "lesser" than their more powerful counterparts, and locked behind Mastery Rank and time investment. 

While usually it's pointless stat-wise to use these mods in said "lesser" used/ranked weapons, I feel like a system that makes it so that you get a per faction damage increase would still have to be toggled to be...well..per faction.

Plus, as an early player, these mods also function as a replacement for Corrupted Mods had they not farmed them from Deimos, and still offer a damage increase vs certain enemies.

With the utility of being able to equip them on both your Primary, Secondary and Melee weapons (as well as some Exalted abilities) there's little reason to be expected to have an adaptive weapon bonus like that.

As I've said before, it wouldn't really provide anything for early players and weapons, and would probably have the most effect on powerful lategame weapons, such as the Kuva/Tenet variants, and whatever weapons are currently used in today's meta.

Thus, I feel they're more than worth the one mod slot it takes to have that bonus damage (which again, isn't super necessary for lategame guns either, as other, more powerful mods exist, such as Rivens, the Galvanised Mods, Warframe abilities that boost damage, etc)

[Quimoth]

This is what loadout slots are for.

[DarknessNightshade]

2 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

This is what loadout slots are for.

+1 And forgot to touch on this, every weapon has 3 free configs, and you have many, many loadouts from Mastery Tests that I rarely even utilise, there's ways around manually swapping these mods. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

That's funny, I was just using this as an example of how players are the problem.

[Parcialsobriedad]

50 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Personally, I'm against this idea. Faction mods are calculated as damage bonuses after every other calculation, making them pretty overpowered. The little effort it takes to swap your config is well worth the damage increase, and on paper, the increase is not strictly necessary for most powerful weapons. 

 

They're not strictly mandatory for optimal DPS, either, I've made a previous post detailing exactly how it would affect a Kuva Bramma vs a Braton, Braton suffers because it lacks the base stats to take advantage of the Faction mods, and so would most early game guns new players have access to (outside of maybe Bows that have decent CC/CD).

 

Ignis wraith /amprex exist and greatly benefit from bane when using viral slash , ungalvanized weapon is suddenly SP capable early on and very usable against liches .

I was not talking about the damage i know that they are real good but i dont get why hide their benefits behind a slight inconvenience of switching them and worrying if you have the correct bane when you start a mission.

28 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

This is what loadout slots are for.

You forgot to switch loadout?

Back to Orbiter pleb lmao.

Please dont make me feel like im talking to a wall.

37 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

You are describing Serration.

Serration is flat damage , bane is multiplicative damage added after the fact, vaguely disclosed on the mod itself.

[Parcialsobriedad]

53 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why? It is 100% pointless to keep them seperate as the game is because you only face more than 1 faction at a time in trivial missions like crossfire and in fissures.

They can simply make a single Bane mod and call it a day since it would have the exact same effect and not require pointless arsenal interaction over and over. If anything, keep the seperate bane mods and then when you have all you can fuse them into Bane or Primed Bane depending on which mods you have all of. It would be a massive QoL that really changes nothing out of a gameplay or power perspective.

Also some wonky stuff happens on fissures , you take corrupted bane or faction specific bane?

As of now i dont know the answer because warframe.

[DarknessNightshade]

27 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Ignis wraith /amprex exist and greatly benefit from bane when using viral slash , ungalvanized weapon is suddenly SP capable early on and very usable against liches .

Beam weapons in general benefit from it due to the insane rate of fire. Hence why Tenet Cycron has become a massive hit, and why Kuva Nukor is also a fan favourite, the addition of Galvanised mods just improves upon an already insanely overpowered way of filling your enemies with status.

28 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Serration is flat damage , bane is multiplicative damage added after the fact, vaguely disclosed on the mod itself.

This was in reply to making them universal, defeats the point of them being per faction bonuses, as I've pointed out previously.

30 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

ou forgot to switch loadout?

Back to Orbiter pleb lmao.

Please dont make me feel like im talking to a wall.

Again, it's a matter of tradeoff. Even with the wrong faction mod equipped, most endgame weapons really don't need the boost. Taken from my own comment made on another thread that I pointed out here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1276436-are-normal-smite-mods-sufficient-or-should-i-go-for-the-primed-smite-mods/?do=findComment&comment=12255682

Most early weapons don't benefit from them, and most lategame weapons deal so much damage the boost hardly matters. 

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

We need less unconditional multipliers in the game. Our builds are already saturated with them.

Too many mods in this game give free damage without changing how a weapon functions.

Banes have a legitimate drawback like Fire Rate, but it is still boring.

To me, Banes should have been better off as weak, combined element mods. The option for Rainbow damage at the cost of raw numbers of base element mods.

Bane of Grineer:

+30%/55% Corrosive

Something like that would at least bring variety to the Viral Slash meta we find ourselves in.

Corrosive+Viral

Toxin+Viral

Gas+Viral

Maybe not. Viral's just too good with everything.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Am_Sha3gar said:

Because really powerful things gotta have a drawback, and a unique multiplier is so powerful that having to juggle them between missions is a suitable drawback.

On a separate note we just got rid of needing to put base damage mods on everything, do we really want to replace them for literally the exact same thing two seconds later?

Being tedious isnt a drawback though, it is just tediousness.

1 hour ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Because adding every Bane mod to a weapon would simply be a universal damage increase rather than the intended per faction damage increase, which isn't exactly great for balancing when early game weapons are meant to be sort of "lesser" than their more powerful counterparts, and locked behind Mastery Rank and time investment. 

While usually it's pointless stat-wise to use these mods in said "lesser" used/ranked weapons, I feel like a system that makes it so that you get a per faction damage increase would still have to be toggled to be...well..per faction.

Plus, as an early player, these mods also function as a replacement for Corrupted Mods had they not farmed them from Deimos, and still offer a damage increase vs certain enemies.

With the utility of being able to equip them on both your Primary, Secondary and Melee weapons (as well as some Exalted abilities) there's little reason to be expected to have an adaptive weapon bonus like that.

As I've said before, it wouldn't really provide anything for early players and weapons, and would probably have the most effect on powerful lategame weapons, such as the Kuva/Tenet variants, and whatever weapons are currently used in today's meta.

Thus, I feel they're more than worth the one mod slot it takes to have that bonus damage (which again, isn't super necessary for lategame guns either, as other, more powerful mods exist, such as Rivens, the Galvanised Mods, Warframe abilities that boost damage, etc)

It already is universal given how the game work, it just requires us to stop, go into arsenal and swap loadout. Which in the end there is no actual point to. It is just outdated. And if they solve it by the example given i.e requiring all then fusing them into one, the early game problem you somehow see would be avoided. Or they simply make a completely new mod called Bane which is tied to a higher MR rank. So many solutions for such QoL improvements.

And where do you get the idea from that they somehow magically wouldnt take a mod slot just because they are merged? Of course the mod would still require the same slot, it just wouldnt require you to swap loadout whenever you swap mission. Simply a QoL change and nothing else.

Since it wouldnt increase power and only bring QoL to the game, there is no reason to say no. In the end all it does is remove tedious interaction with the arsenal. Something that also isnt accessible from everywhere when you wanna switch missions these days. For instance, swapping mission in RJ does not allow you to access your arsenal, so you need to head to a relay or dojo in order to fix the loadout. The game has changed alot, so certain other things like the bane mods should imo follow to make their ease of use applicable to new systems aswell.

[DarknessNightshade]

3 minutes ago, DarknessNightshade said:

Most early weapons don't benefit from them, and most lategame weapons deal so much damage the boost hardly matters. 

Just to elaborate on this, I also went ahead and looked up what the toughest scaling is for the star chart, a typical Grineer Lancer at Lvl 175 (the highest the wiki slider goes: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Lancer), they have 110k something effective health, which is a fraction of the damage dealt by an endgame weapon can do without the Bane mods, while a Braton would take about 50 or 60 bullets to kill a single target, even with the Bane mods equipped (also taken from my own earlier post on another thread)

Generally, you aren't going to encounter that on the regular star chart unless you're maybe a couple hours into a Survival run, which is generally an extreme amount of time to spend on one mission.

[Parcialsobriedad]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Being tedious isnt a drawback though, it is just tediousness.

It already is universal given how the game work, it just requires us to stop, go into arsenal and swap loadout. Which in the end there is no actual point to. It is just outdated. And if they solve it by the example given i.e requiring all then fusing them into one, the early game problem you somehow see would be avoided. Or they simply make a completely new mod called Bane which is tied to a higher MR rank. So many solutions for such QoL improvements.

And where do you get the idea from that they somehow magically wouldnt take a mod slot just because they are merged? Of course the mod would still require the same slot, it just wouldnt require you to swap loadout whenever you swap mission. Simply a QoL change and nothing else.

Since it wouldnt increase power and only bring QoL to the game, there is no reason to say no. In the end all it does is remove tedious interaction with the arsenal. Something that also isnt accessible from everywhere when you wanna switch missions these days. For instance, swapping mission in RJ does not allow you to access your arsenal, so you need to head to a relay or dojo in order to fix the loadout. The game has changed alot, so certain other things like the bane mods should imo follow to make their ease of use applicable to new systems aswell.

QOL changes , i've discovered the bane of warframe players. Pun intended.

[DarknessNightshade]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

t already is universal given how the game work, it just requires us to stop, go into arsenal and swap loadout. Which in the end there is no actual point to. It is just outdated. And if they solve it by the example given i.e requiring all then fusing them into one, the early game problem you somehow see would be avoided.

So...every other mod is a pointless system too? I'm not understanding the logic there. Every mod has their own benefits, Bane mods especially are niche. And it's not an "Early game problem" as I've pointed out too. Literally no early game gun benefits from bane mods.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And where do you get the idea from that they somehow magically wouldnt take a mod slot just because they are merged? Of course the mod would still require the same slot, it just wouldnt require you to swap loadout whenever you swap mission. Simply a QoL change and nothing else.

Not really QoL, I've pointed out the compounding evidence of just how little they actually matter to a build, so I'm not sure why it would require its own change.

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since it wouldnt increase power and only bring QoL to the game, there is no reason to say no.

Actually, I've pointed out the opposite, if you hadn't already read it:

1 hour ago, DarknessNightshade said:

As I've said before, it wouldn't really provide anything for early players and weapons, and would probably have the most effect on powerful lategame weapons, such as the Kuva/Tenet variants, and whatever weapons are currently used in today's meta.

Reasoning against that specific point is that endgame weapons definitely would have a damage increase for little to no effort involved, upsetting the balance of end-game content and the difficulty of Arbitrations and Steel Path.

Also, another point I hadn't brought up, is that usually it takes more than just slapping a different Bane mod on your weapon to have effectiveness, for example, a Viral/Slash build would do bugger all to Corpus targets, which is where you build for Toxin/Magnetic, justifying the loadouts/configs.

 

[Am_Sha3gar]

Quote

Being tedious isnt a drawback though, it is just tediousness.

It's time you have to spend to get your weapons to do more damage, it's just that the time is sprinkled between missions instead of all before (grinding rare mods, grinding the endo) or all during the mission (using buffing/debuffing abilities, etc). Just because a particular drawback is tedious to you it doesn't mean it should be removed from the game, it just means you shouldn't bother with it, and like DarknessNightshade is saying you aren't required to do that at all. I personally don't like a lot of things, like arcane farming, focus farming or switching schools, so i just don't bother with those mechanics, and not ask for the drawbacks to be removed, cause there isn't anything wrong with them inherently, they are just tedious to me.

[SpringRocker]

49 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

Serration is flat damage , bane is multiplicative damage added after the fact, vaguely disclosed on the mod itself.

Serration is it's own multiplier, just like the bane mods. It's not flat damage that's being added, it's part of an equation that gets multiplied with everything else. To be honest it doesn't even matter if it added "first" or "last" in the equation, it's multiplier get multiplied regardless.

Only thing specifically special about bane mods are that they also factor into dots in a different way and are faction specific. Other than that it's the exact same as serration, except it has a different value and it's own multiplier.

Making a universal bane would just make it a mandatory mod. Might as well ask for a buff to serration for more damage.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, DarknessNightshade said:

So...every other mod is a pointless system too? I'm not understanding the logic there. Every mod has their own benefits, Bane mods especially are niche. And it's not an "Early game problem" as I've pointed out too. Literally no early game gun benefits from bane mods.

Not really QoL, I've pointed out the compounding evidence of just how little they actually matter to a build, so I'm not sure why it would require its own change.

Actually, I've pointed out the opposite, if you hadn't already read it:

Reasoning against that specific point is that endgame weapons definitely would have a damage increase for little to no effort involved, upsetting the balance of end-game content and the difficulty of Arbitrations and Steel Path.

 

You must have a very hard time grasping the concept of QoL, since it is 100% seperated from whatever power we get from something. QoL is all about ease of use, nothing else matters in that discussion. I dont give a flying rats ass about how much or little the mod provides or how useful it is, I care only about the tediousness of equipping it or not.

Me using a bane mod now, or using a bane mod after easier access to it i.e not having to swap between loadouts, would add zero extra power since the bane mod would grant the same exact damage % prior to and after it's accessibility change.

It wouldnt increase power if it is accessed at all times, since we only ever face one faction. So me changing it manually between missions or the game simply having a simple bane mod applying to all the factions doesnt matter. The % damage is the exact same in both cases, all it does is remove steps to access it between mission swaps.

 

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Am_Sha3gar said:

It's time you have to spend to get your weapons to do more damage, it's just that the time is sprinkled between missions instead of all before (grinding rare mods, grinding the endo) or all during the mission (using buffing/debuffing abilities, etc). Just because a particular drawback is tedious to you it doesn't mean it should be removed from the game, it just means you shouldn't bother with it, and like DarknessNightshade is saying you aren't required to do that at all. I personally don't like a lot of things, like arcane farming, focus farming or switching schools, so i just don't bother with those mechanics, and not ask for the drawbacks to be removed, cause there isn't anything wrong with them inherently, they are just tedious to me.

That is the most silly reasoning I've ever read.

[Parcialsobriedad]

God forbid if we make min-maxing damage slightly more accesible and less unconvenient. 

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Serration is it's own multiplier, just like the bane mods. It's not flat damage that's being added, it's part of an equation that gets multiplied with everything else. To be honest it doesn't even matter if it added "first" or "last" in the equation, it's multiplier get multiplied regardless.

Only thing specifically special about bane mods are that they also factor into dots in a different way and are faction specific. Other than that it's the exact same as serration, except it has a different value and it's own multiplier.

Making a universal bane would just make it a mandatory mod. Might as well ask for a buff to serration for more damage.

No it matters a whole lot when serration is added. Serration only increases base damage of a weapon i.e the innate stats. Bane multiplies total damage, after all other mods are added into the equation. On a weapon with 100 base damage, serration only scales with those 100 base damage.

[Parcialsobriedad]

Also some points i forgot to add , endo sink. If for some reason you want to have all 4 primed banes maxed , although not personally recommended , i mostly level them up to r8 instead of 10 , but if you wanted to max those it would be 160kish per weapon class , adding up to 480k endo and a few credits sprinkled in. Thats , uhm , lot of endo 120 anasas or nearly 1300≈ platinum. Yeah..

[DarknessNightshade]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

You must have a very hard time grasping the concept of QoL, since it is 100% seperated from whatever power we get from something. QoL is all about ease of use, nothing else matters in that discussion. I dont give a flying rats ass about how much or little the mod provides or how useful it is, I care only about the tediousness of equipping it or not.

Ok so, between how easy it is to just click and drag the mod, how you have 3 different weapon configurations, you have many Loadouts you could use, switching between mods needs a QoL change? There's only so much DE can do to make it easier for players to engage in certain systems, though I would like to hear how you think such a system would work. If a mod that had the bonuses of all factions was a thing, why is that not just a better Serration?

6 minutes ago, Parcialsobriedad said:

God forbid if we make min-maxing damage slightly more accesible and less unconvenient. 

My main problem with this statement is the lack of tutorials rather than the plentiful access to something you'd really only consider to be a factor in lategame, you can just at any time slot that bad boy in and et voila.

Pointless making a change like that as the mod station as a whole is not explained at all, I had to learn everything virtually through other people or through the Wiki (even if it is outdated at times), thus, having the option to have an increase in damage if you really wanted to mod for specific factions is there if you want it.

If it was a matter of making modding easier, it should be considered as the entire experience of modding, in my opinion.