Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[ThePresident777]

Fine! just go do all that fun by yourself on solo and no one has a problem,

 

Balance in an online team game is all about fun for all who play in that team! not just the selfish children.

 

Mprime enables the entire team to do this, except for the ones who can't use abilities while off the ground(which should be fixed).

[Cwierz]

1)  You don't support an opinion.  It is what it is.  You like something, then you go looking for a sales pitch to convince others that they will like it to.  I wouldn't call a sales pitch a support as if it were on par with supporting evidence.

 

2)  The hell with the game.  It's the players that matter.  I'm not a slave to abstractions.  You really do speak like a cultist.

 

3)  I know fun and balance are unrelated.  As I've stated before, the purpose of a game is to entertain, not to balance.

 

4)  Nothing is based on mathematics.  Math is a descriptive language.  It does not create.  It is something created by people.  The universe does not calculate.  People calculate, or have machines do it for them.

 

irrelevant /snip

1.) This isn't a sales pitch. This is a debate about changing M Prime where we support our sides, and you have refused to do that.

 

2.) Balance is not abstract, she is bad for the game, and there are a lot of people who suffer from it, and a lot of content that is rendered useless by it. The solution is not to band-aid it, nor is it to make everything similar in hopes of drowning out parts of the problem. I repeat once more, no content is exempt from balancing. M Prime can be balanced, and still retain its trademark characteristics while being balanced in a proper sense. You refuse to see past your blinders, refuse to see the problem, and if you do you damn well do not know how to fix it. 

 

You do not fix something that has an issue with it by not acknowledging it, making other things like it, or dismissing it because you happen to like it. I am going to apply this scenario to a similar problem (A car that has a recall, but you paid good money for and enjoy using), to hopefully get you to see some flaws with your logic. 

 

A car with a recall on it:

You do not ignore it, because that faulty accelerator could cause you to hit another person. You do not make other cars have the same problem. You do not decide to dismiss the problem just because you like the car a lot.

 

 

3.) I actually semi-retract this point because it is true a portion of the time. If a game is unbalanced the chances of it being fun are low, likewise if a game is balanced and entertains all strategies then it is more likely to be fun.

 

4.) I guess I was using the improper wording here. Math (our word for an objective system) is something we use to describe relations between values. However, I ask for you to not be a nitpick and realize that they might as well be the same thing. Our music, is heavily influenced by mathematical principles. The musical keys is probably the best example of this, and at the time of their creation we didn't realize it. We chose to establish those, because the mathematical relations between those frequencies was interpreted as "good" in our brains. It is the reason that unmathematical noise is also not considered music. 

 

Cryptography is another good example.

 

5.)And that entire spheal about reasoning. 

 

Ill let you in on reasons that is irrelevant.

 

a.) A problem has been recognized

b.) Instead of convincing me why it isn't a problem (I do not have a huge confirmation bias about this and I have changed opinions numerous times, so this should be easymode if it isn't) you have chosen to try to justify why it doesn't need attention. (I realize that these are similar, but this is the best way I could find to word it)

 

 

Here are some other things I feel is relevant from a nice little article myself that Ill attempt to shorten out.

Before reading the second part I want a fundemental thing drilled in-

Nova lacks any major weaknesses. (She can reduce enemy DPS, that is defensive... also in the way this game scales low level enemies will never scratch past the shields, and the high enemy levels will shred anything that isn't immune to CC and has blessing)

Know that imbalance is actually bad. The first thing that I think everyone has to do is to internalize the idea that balance is good, and imbalance is bad. I've actually heard people try to argue that a little bit of imbalance is necessary for a fun game. Someone who says this is failing to see one factor:

 

That a game can be "fun" whether or not it's balanced -- the word "fun" is a notoriously crappy metric. Anything "can be fun" with the right attitude -- flicking a dust-ball around on the floor, brushing your teeth, anything.

If a game is fun despite being imbalanced, that's great, but do not make the mistake of thinking that it's fun because it's imbalanced.

Cherish Weaknesses. Valve's Robin Walker, designer of Team Fortress 2, said that the most important aspect of the classes in the game was actually their weaknesses, not their strengths. It's somewhat counterintuitive to think this way, but making sure that all of your game elements have a distinct weakness can be a great way to help you avoid dominant strategies.

Sometimes these weaknesses manifest in really interesting ways, creating interesting situations. One of my favorites is the super-destructive Demoman class in Team Fortress 2. Loaded with two types of explosives, he can quickly turn masses of foes into small barbequed chunks of flesh, and he's great at taking out sentry guns.....

So how is the Demoman balanced? Because he has no bullet-type weapons whatsoever. This means that besides using melee, the only way for him to kill anyone is to predict where they'll be, whereas every other class can attack by shooting where you are...

Edited December 30, 2013 by Cwierz

[Kyphe]

My GF and I have had long talks about M-prime, we both play nova.

She is far less critical of MP than I, though she acknowledges tweaking is needed to share out the fun factor.

one idea we bounced about last night was limited chain MP not total cascade.

So MP goes off as normal debuffing everyone as normal, but only a few of the effected bots are primed to blow! perhaps the closest 3 to the nova or perhaps random.

however when each one blows up it has the chance to prime up to 3 more which have to be set off separately, only primed bots will blow as part of a chain, if the first 3 bots blow on the first kill they have the chance to prime 9 more if they are in range but each time the prime passes on the blast zone gets smaller.

Nova can not set another prime off while there are still bots primed.

whomever sets off the explosion gets the kills and the kill share of the XP

[-CM-Syein]

 

 

Convenient because I consider rhino to be unbalanced.

 

But seriously SEIZE, I do not think you understand the slightest of what you are talking about.

 

I consider Bastille, Snowglobe, Blessing, M Prime, Rhino, the vanguard helmet, and soma to be pretty stupid at this point. The fact that survival needs desecrate for air is also dumb. There are so many problems with this game, and these represent some of the worst problems with the game. I feel that trying to tell people the actual problem in futile, and the better solution is to remove the mask over them and let people realize it themselves.

If you say I don't understand what I'm talking about, say it why instead of stating it there without any logical reasoning to say it against mine. And I'm pretty sure most people here agree that rhino is balance, he's a little op compared to most other frames in all area, but he set a bar to buff the other frames, not nerf them. But didn't I say that once you nerf Nova, I think with people like you, all you do is scream nerf on everything YOU consider op. Some players stating that :"Once you nerf Nova then what? Nerf Rhino, then after Rhino then what? Frost, then Trinity, then nekros!?? (are you kidding) etc. They all had their own unique abilities. And you are here, stating the things that those players already predict. So Rhino is not balance to you, as well as blessing, snowglobe etc. Congratulation, you're a Nerfer. . 

[-CM-Syein]

My friend and I got into this game roughly a little more than a week ago, and were introduced to a Nova farming on Xini as we were clearing out the nodes there. We experienced pretty much the same thing that's been brought up before in this thread.

 

We sat there.

 

I have never felt more absolutely useless in terms of what I brought to the table (at the time, my Volt and peashooter Braton) than at that moment. My friend over vent had similar reactions - why do anything? Just let the Nova run in there and blow everything up while the Vauban keeps Bastille running. Those two players literally carried us to wave 30 while we browsed the forums and listened to music. We did nothing.

 

This is just the perspective of someone who is very new to the game, but it just seems to me that Nova's ultimate brings a lot to the table. It really only matters so much how low her shields and health are when you're given an ability that allows you to clear an entire map. It's a CC, damage amp, and mass AoE all rolled into one package - it's the perfect ability.

 

To be frank, the concept of 'don't nerf, buff!' is normally one that sits well with me - but I think if every damage frame was as good as killing things as Nova was, the game would be very, very, boring. (notthatIwouldn'tmindVolt'soverloadbeingasgoodasMP...>_>)

Obviously if you're just here 1 week ago, then ofc a max out nova capable of killing everything, not only a max out nova, other frames will do. 

Also, let me guess, you left at around wave 20 or less? Because Xini in itself is easyy. At early level of every survival and defense mission, no matter what frame you bring into, you just don't feel any challenge. Also if you're gonna just bring a braton, at wave 30, you will wish a Nova is there to spam m-prime for you. 

[-CM-Syein]

1.) This isn't a sales pitch. This is a debate about changing M Prime where we support our sides, and you have refused to do that.

 

2.) Balance is not abstract, she is bad for the game, and there are a lot of people who suffer from it, and a lot of content that is rendered useless by it. The solution is not to band-aid it, nor is it to make everything similar in hopes of drowning out parts of the problem. I repeat once more, no content is exempt from balancing. M Prime can be balanced, and still retain its trademark characteristics while being balanced in a proper sense. You refuse to see past your blinders, refuse to see the problem, and if you do you damn well do not know how to fix it. 

 

You do not fix something that has an issue with it by not acknowledging it, making other things like it, or dismissing it because you happen to like it. I am going to apply this scenario to a similar problem (A car that has a recall, but you paid good money for and enjoy using), to hopefully get you to see some flaws with your logic. 

 

A car with a recall on it:

You do not ignore it, because that faulty accelerator could cause you to hit another person. You do not make other cars have the same problem. You do not decide to dismiss the problem just because you like the car a lot.

 

 

3.) I actually semi-retract this point because it is true a portion of the time. If a game is unbalanced the chances of it being fun are low, likewise if a game is balanced and entertains all strategies then it is more likely to be fun.

 

4.) I guess I was using the improper wording here. Math (our word for an objective system) is something we use to describe relations between values. However, I ask for you to not be a nitpick and realize that they might as well be the same thing. Our music, is heavily influenced by mathematical principles. The musical keys is probably the best example of this, and at the time of their creation we didn't realize it. We chose to establish those, because the mathematical relations between those frequencies was interpreted as "good" in our brains. It is the reason that unmathematical noise is also not considered music. 

 

Cryptography is another good example.

 

5.)And that entire spheal about reasoning. 

 

Ill let you in on reasons that is irrelevant.

 

a.) A problem has been recognized

b.) Instead of convincing me why it isn't a problem (I do not have a huge confirmation bias about this and I have changed opinions numerous times, so this should be easymode if it isn't) you have chosen to try to justify why it doesn't need attention. (I realize that these are similar, but this is the best way I could find to word it)

 

 

Here are some other things I feel is relevant from a nice little article myself that Ill attempt to shorten out.

Before reading the second part I want a fundemental thing drilled in-

Nova lacks any major weaknesses. (She can reduce enemy DPS, that is defensive... also in the way this game scales low level enemies will never scratch past the shields, and the high enemy levels will shred anything that isn't immune to CC and has blessing)

Know that imbalance is actually bad. The first thing that I think everyone has to do is to internalize the idea that balance is good, and imbalance is bad. I've actually heard people try to argue that a little bit of imbalance is necessary for a fun game. Someone who says this is failing to see one factor:

 

That a game can be "fun" whether or not it's balanced -- the word "fun" is a notoriously crappy metric. Anything "can be fun" with the right attitude -- flicking a dust-ball around on the floor, brushing your teeth, anything.

If a game is fun despite being imbalanced, that's great, but do not make the mistake of thinking that it's fun because it's imbalanced.

Cherish Weaknesses. Valve's Robin Walker, designer of Team Fortress 2, said that the most important aspect of the classes in the game was actually their weaknesses, not their strengths. It's somewhat counterintuitive to think this way, but making sure that all of your game elements have a distinct weakness can be a great way to help you avoid dominant strategies.

Sometimes these weaknesses manifest in really interesting ways, creating interesting situations. One of my favorites is the super-destructive Demoman class in Team Fortress 2. Loaded with two types of explosives, he can quickly turn masses of foes into small barbequed chunks of flesh, and he's great at taking out sentry guns.....

So how is the Demoman balanced? Because he has no bullet-type weapons whatsoever. This means that besides using melee, the only way for him to kill anyone is to predict where they'll be, whereas every other class can attack by shooting where you are...

balance: where every frames are the same. same dps power, same usefulness, good at the same things

Unbalance: Trinity good at healing, Rhino good at tanking, Loki good at survival, Nova good at dps, Frost good at defense and so on etc. 

Every frames had it's own uniqueness. 

So the balance that you suggesting is making other frames had similiar dps, similar def, similar survival rate. That is BORING. Each frames need each other in order to pass a high end survival/def mission. And now you suggesting that, let they be the same as each other. If that is the case, a team with the same frames together is enough to pass high level mission, no need to put different frames combination in/ smack that yo. 

You don't get what fun is. Fun need different varieties. One frame had to be good at something others don't, which is why we got frosts snowglobe, Rhino's iron skin, Nova's m-prime, Trinity's healing, Nekros's desecrate, and so on etc. 

Other frames who are so weak at their special uniqueness need a buff!

[NikolaiLev]

My GF and I have had long talks about M-prime, we both play nova.

She is far less critical of MP than I, though she acknowledges tweaking is needed to share out the fun factor.

one idea we bounced about last night was limited chain MP not total cascade.

So MP goes off as normal debuffing everyone as normal, but only a few of the effected bots are primed to blow! perhaps the closest 3 to the nova or perhaps random.

however when each one blows up it has the chance to prime up to 3 more which have to be set off separately, only primed bots will blow as part of a chain, if the first 3 bots blow on the first kill they have the chance to prime 9 more if they are in range but each time the prime passes on the blast zone gets smaller.

Nova can not set another prime off while there are still bots primed.

whomever sets off the explosion gets the kills and the kill share of the XP

 

It's nice you're coming up with ideas.  But random chance should be avoided at all costs.

 

 

balance: where every frames are the same. same dps power, same usefulness, good at the same things

Unbalance: Trinity good at healing, Rhino good at tanking, Loki good at survival, Nova good at dps, Frost good at defense and so on etc. 

 

 

Wrong.

 

Balance: Where every frame is as useful as every other one at what they're intended to do.

Imbalance: Where frames are as good at or better than other ones, even at things they're not supposed to be.  i.e. Rhino having comparable (or better) direct damage output to Excalibur (charge deals more damage than slash dash) while having similar mobility (charge) and far more CC (charge and ult), more survivability (base stats, iron skin) and late game scaling (roar).

 

Balance is not the same as h omogeny.

 

Saryn and Ember have some niche uses, but their AoE gets dumped on by Nova who also has the utility of an effective (and team-wide) mobility tool.  While you could say Ember is strictly better against Infested, why bother when MPrime slows their move speed by 50% and allows your entire team to deal double damage?

 

Saryn and Ember's big AoE are centered around themselves and have inferior range (15m) to MPrime (25m).  Ember's ult travels with her, necessitating that she stay in danger while Nova can flit on the edges of the horde, mprime, and jump back out to safety.

 

For a mere 100 energy you get good damage, damage amp, and CC at a good range, all in one.  That's just too much.

 

P.S. The fact that the word "h omogeny" is censored because of the prefix is simply absurd.

Edited December 30, 2013 by NikolaiLev

[-CM-Syein]

Wrong.

 

Balance: Where every frame is as useful as every other one at what they're intended to do.

Imbalance: Where frames are as good at or better than other ones, even at things they're not supposed to be.  i.e. Rhino having comparable (or better) direct damage output to Excalibur (charge deals more damage than slash dash) while having similar mobility (charge) and far more CC (charge and ult), more survivability (base stats, iron skin) and late game scaling (roar).

 

Balance is not the same as h omogeny.

 

Saryn and Ember have some niche uses, but their AoE gets dumped on by Nova who also has the utility of an effective (and team-wide) mobility tool.  While you could say Ember is strictly better against Infested, why bother when MPrime slows their move speed by 50% and allows your entire team to deal double damage?

 

Saryn and Ember's big AoE are centered around themselves and have inferior range (15m) to MPrime (25m).  Ember's ult travels with her, necessitating that she stay in danger while Nova can flit on the edges of the horde, mprime, and jump back out to safety.

 

For a mere 100 energy you get good damage, damage amp, and CC at a good range, all in one.  That's just too much.

 

P.S. The fact that the word "h omogeny" is censored because of the prefix is simply absurd.

Yes every frames should be useful at their own unique abilities, I'm not against buff. Nova can keep her power, they can make her even more of a squishy frame. 

Saryn and Ember had their own survival abilities, It's regretful that they remove overheat on ember. 

you compared frames that need to be buff against a frame that is good at what they intend her for ; glass cannon. 

Nova had less shield compare to Saryn and Ember, she doesn't have Valkyr's high amount of armor to compensate for it. Also people wanted nova to spam m-prime at some point in the game. It's obvious she is not need at low level stuffs, I mean, who couldn't solo it. 

Why we doesn't buff when we have the option to do it. 

The number one thing people complained about Nova is not how op her power is, but because she stole kills from people more than other frames does. 

She is a frame that dependent on another frames. She suck at solo, survival, mobile def mission? I rather take frost, trinity, or rhino. 

People only care about dps in this game, and when they argue something, it's dps, not other traits such as survival, def etc. 

Such op dps from Nova is need for many high end mission, most demand frames when people ask for are usually: Frost, Rhino, Nova, Trinity, Vauban, Nekros. etc. You doesn't compare these frames to Nova, but saryn and ember? pff. It's obvious most people rather say saryn and ember are two of the "need to be buff" frames. 

[NikolaiLev]

 

Why we doesn't buff when we have the option to do it. 

 

Because power creep is bad.

[-CM-Syein]

Because power creep is bad.

that's not the answer. 

[J-Pax]

If there are so many threads on a daily basis about Nova from so many people....you don't think there might be a problem with the Nova warframe? I suspect you're one of those Nova players people are complaining about, play Nova

90% of the time and don't want it nerfed.

Nerf on DE, nerf on......

 

For every "NOVA IS OP!" thread there are 2 or more replies of equal measure within that same thread that make a decent case against nerfing Nova.

 

Just because a particular topic is highly visible does not make it a community issue. It just means the forums became more hazardous to judge on 'popular opinion' with the influx of players that exploded onto the forums throughout this open beta. What would be nice to see is the ability to add polls to your forum post.

[NikolaiLev]

For every "NOVA IS OP!" thread there are 2 or more replies of equal measure within that same thread that make a decent case against nerfing Nova.

 

 

That's subjective.  I really haven't seen any compelling arguments against nerfing Nova beyond "She's my favorite frame, and I have an irrational fear of balance!"

[-CM-Syein]

That's subjective.  I really haven't seen any compelling arguments against nerfing Nova beyond "She's my favorite frame, and I have an irrational fear of balance!"

nuh uh, I haven't see any compelling arguments against not nerfing Nova either. Haven't you read my post? Or did you just give up answering, since I haven't see much of your valid points. 

[NikolaiLev]

nuh uh, I haven't see any compelling arguments against not nerfing Nova either. Haven't you read my post? Or did you just give up answering, since I haven't see much of your valid points. 

 

Your points have been addressed in full.  Multiple times, actually.  But they were largely posted for the reader's benefit; you haven't really responded to them besides disagreeing.

 

Arguments for nerfing Nova will never be compelling to people who don't care about balance, because nerfing Nova is a balance decision.  The argument thus far has not been "Nova is not overpowered," it's that "Nova should be overpowered" or "We should buff every single other frame up to the level of Nova instead of nerfing her."

 

Which would result in power creep.  Also, it's just plain silly.  Why adjust everything else when just a few need to be addressed?  It's simply not logical to do.

[Cwierz]

1.)If you say I don't understand what I'm talking about, say it why instead of stating it there without any logical reasoning to say it against mine.

2.)And I'm pretty sure most people here agree that rhino is balance, he's a little op compared to most other frames in all area, but he set a bar to buff the other frames, not nerf them.

3.)But didn't I say that once you nerf Nova, I think with people like you, all you do is scream nerf on everything YOU consider op.

4.)Some players stating that :"Once you nerf Nova then what? Nerf Rhino, then after Rhino then what? Frost, then Trinity, then nekros!?? (are you kidding) etc. They all had their own unique abilities. And you are here, stating the things that those players already predict.

5.)So Rhino is not balance to you, as well as blessing, snowglobe etc. Congratulation, you're a Nerfer. . 

1.)You don't. I don't even need to explain it thats how badly you fail to understand anything you are talking about. You obviously cannot see the actual problems here, and refuse to think critically about anything.

2.) Appeal to majority is not a valid argument, it is better to nerf one then to buff others... and it is better (not even going to explain because I have before)

3.) Well no S#&$. If I think something is bad for the game and breaking it I probably will talk about it because I want my opinion to be heard and to provide feedback!

4.) I want to nerf to rhino and nova for the sole purpose that they are OP. However for the others I talked about you should have been able to tell that I wanted them nerfed so that people would actually see problems with tile design, enemy spawning, AI, and other things are are characteristics of defense and survival. I think that exempting the ridiculously long invulnerability in blessing, those skills are close to okay, but there are problems that people will never see because they exist.

5.) Why is wanting nerfs a bad thing? You would be surprised to know I want buffs to :O

 

 

balance: where every frames are the same. same dps power, same usefulness, good at the same things

Unbalance: Trinity good at healing, Rhino good at tanking, Loki good at survival, Nova good at dps, Frost good at defense and so on etc. 

Every frames had it's own uniqueness. 

So the balance that you suggesting is making other frames had similiar dps, similar def, similar survival rate. That is BORING. Each frames need each other in order to pass a high end survival/def mission. And now you suggesting that, let they be the same as each other. If that is the case, a team with the same frames together is enough to pass high level mission, no need to put different frames combination in/ smack that yo. 

You don't get what fun is. Fun need different varieties. One frame had to be good at something others don't, which is why we got frosts snowglobe, Rhino's iron skin, Nova's m-prime, Trinity's healing, Nekros's desecrate, and so on etc. 

Other frames who are so weak at their special uniqueness need a buff!

Balance is not the same as h omogeny like Lev said. Why don't you read his post for that. 

Did you really use "endgame" as part of your support for your position? I have said so many times in this thread why that isn't valid, wtf.

But yeah, nikolailev basically responded to this post with the equivalent of what I have, and you failed to counter-refute because you can't.

 

Yes every frames should be useful at their own unique abilities, I'm not against buff. Nova can keep her power, they can make her even more of a squishy frame. 

Saryn and Ember had their own survival abilities, It's regretful that they remove overheat on ember. 

you compared frames that need to be buff against a frame that is good at what they intend her for ; glass cannon. 

Nova had less shield compare to Saryn and Ember, she doesn't have Valkyr's high amount of armor to compensate for it. Also people wanted nova to spam m-prime at some point in the game. It's obvious she is not need at low level stuffs, I mean, who couldn't solo it. 

Why we doesn't buff when we have the option to do it. 

The number one thing people complained about Nova is not how op her power is, but because she stole kills from people more than other frames does. 

She is a frame that dependent on another frames. She suck at solo, survival, mobile def mission? I rather take frost, trinity, or rhino. 

People only care about dps in this game, and when they argue something, it's dps, not other traits such as survival, def etc. 

Such op dps from Nova is need for many high end mission, most demand frames when people ask for are usually: Frost, Rhino, Nova, Trinity, Vauban, Nekros. etc. You doesn't compare these frames to Nova, but saryn and ember? pff. It's obvious most people rather say saryn and ember are two of the "need to be buff" frames. 

no. no. no.

I am going to point out all of the logical fallacies instead of responding.

1.) One does not justify the other

2.) Why not buff?

3.) You are just mad because nova stole kills!

4.) Using surviveablity as an argument even though I outlined why that is not true.

5.) Not seeing the actual problem, nor knowing how to fix it. x3

Retry from start

 

that's not the answer. 

How? Powercreep is bad for games, both for marketing and longevity. Are you trying to say that you don't care, or are you trying to say that you disagree with his answer? Because both are wrong.

 

nuh uh, I haven't see any compelling arguments against not nerfing Nova either. Haven't you read my post? Or did you just give up answering, since I haven't see much of your valid points. 

 

Can you read? Have you seen my posts. Wow.... I have wrote so many, but you respond with bad grammar and a smirk on your face thinking you actually said something that is relevant and correct.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

1.)You don't. I don't even need to explain it thats how badly you fail to understand anything you are talking about. You obviously cannot see the actual problems here, and refuse to think critically about anything.

2.) Appeal to majority is not a valid argument, it is better to nerf one then to buff others... and it is better (not even going to explain because I have before)

3.) Well no S#&$. If I think something is bad for the game and breaking it I probably will talk about it because I want my opinion to be heard and to provide feedback!

4.) I want to nerf to rhino and nova for the sole purpose that they are OP. However for the others I talked about you should have been able to tell that I wanted them nerfed so that people would actually see problems with tile design, enemy spawning, AI, and other things are are characteristics of defense and survival. I think that exempting the ridiculously long invulnerability in blessing, those skills are close to okay, but there are problems that people will never see because they exist.

5.) Why is wanting nerfs a bad thing? You would be surprised to know I want buffs to :O

 

 

Balance is not the same as h omogeny like Lev said. Why don't you read his post for that. 

Did you really use "endgame" as part of your support for your position? I have said so many times in this thread why that isn't valid, wtf.

But yeah, nikolailev basically responded to this post with the equivalent of what I have, and you failed to counter-refute because you can't.

 

no. no. no.

I am going to point out all of the logical fallacies instead of responding.

1.) One does not justify the other

2.) Why not buff?

3.) You are just mad because nova stole kills!

4.) Using surviveablity as an argument even though I outlined why that is not true.

5.) Not seeing the actual problem, nor knowing how to fix it. x3

Retry from start

 

How? Powercreep is bad for games, both for marketing and longevity. Are you trying to say that you don't care, or are you trying to say that you disagree with his answer? Because both are wrong.

 

Can you read? Have you seen my posts. Wow.... I have wrote so many, but you respond with bad grammar and a smirk on your face thinking you actually said something that is relevant and correct.

this is in respond to NikolaiLev about the post. And in respond to your post as well, Because you, doesn't seem to have problem with Nova only, You stated clearly that you have problem with Rhino, Blessing, Snowglobe and other etc. Which is why I said you doesn't make any sense. All you wanted is nerf. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by SElZE

[-CM-Syein]

Your points have been addressed in full.  Multiple times, actually.  But they were largely posted for the reader's benefit; you haven't really responded to them besides disagreeing.

 

Arguments for nerfing Nova will never be compelling to people who don't care about balance, because nerfing Nova is a balance decision.  The argument thus far has not been "Nova is not overpowered," it's that "Nova should be overpowered" or "We should buff every single other frame up to the level of Nova instead of nerfing her."

 

Which would result in power creep.  Also, it's just plain silly.  Why adjust everything else when just a few need to be addressed?  It's simply not logical to do.

I already state the reasons why Nova shouldn't be nerf. Reasons does not equal disagreement. 

I'm curious what balance are you talking about, when her power is made up for her squishiness. 

Nova is not op because of her def, and survival. Reason why we should buff other frames because they're underpower not because Nova overpower. 

Also, may I list frames that equal Nova? Rhino, Frost, Trinity, Mag, Loki etc. They all can be on the same level as Nova. 

The other frames are underpower and need buffs. So basically if you gonna nerf Nova, you might have to nerf Rhino, Frost, Trinity, Mag as well. 

And don't start with me how mag not on par with Nova. One of the highest shield frame, if you mod her right + know how to use combination skill, she capable of defeat Nova in dps against void or corpus faction , Mag had a much higher survival than Nova. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by SElZE

[Cwierz]

this is in respond to NikolaiLev about the post. And in respond to your post as well, Because you, doesn't seem to have problem with Nova only, You stated clearly that you have problem with Rhino, Blessing, Snowglobe and other etc. Which is why I said you doesn't make any sense. All you wanted is nerf. 

Can you read. What the actual F***. I explained myself in there, read it again. 

I don't care if all I want is some god damn nerfs, that doesn't change a god damn thing if I am supporting my position! My posts do make sense, and I am supporting them, there are reasons if you would read my posts that I want changes... but you refuse to use your eyes and actually look at it.

I already state the reasons why Nova shouldn't be nerf. Reasons does not equal disagreement. 

I'm curious what balance are you talking about, when her power is made up for her squishiness. 

Nova is not op because of her def, and survival. Reason why we should buff other frames because they're underpower not because Nova overpower. 

Also, may I list frames that equal Nova? Rhino, Frost, Trinity, Mag, Loki etc. They all can be on the same level as Nova. 

The other frames are underpower and need buffs. So basically if you gonna nerf Nova, you might have to nerf Rhino, Frost, Trinity, Mag as well. 

And don't start with me how mag not on par with Nova. One of the highest shield frame, if you mod her right + know how to use combination skill, she capable of defeat Nova in dps against void or corpus faction , Mag had a much higher survival than Nova. 

SEIZE, please read that posts first two sentences. We have addressed your points before, but you flat out ignore them and say them again like a broken record. Please stop.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

Can you read. What the actual F***. I explained myself in there, read it again. 

I don't care if all I want is some god damn nerfs, that doesn't change a god damn thing if I am supporting my position! My posts do make sense, and I am supporting them, there are reasons if you would read my posts that I want changes... but you refuse to use your eyes and actually look at it.

SEIZE, please read that posts first two sentences. We have addressed your points before, but you flat out ignore them and say them again like a broken record. Please stop.

oh, please read my posts as well, and you have no right to tell me to stop. 

Also, don't go and start saying bad words now, it getting ugly. Let me remind you, this is an argument. 

Sure you wanted your overall nerf, I wanted my overall buffs. It also doesn't change a thing if I am supporting my position. 

[ThePresident777]

Meanwhile, Nova's ult, along with its other benefits, slows enemy move speed and attack speed by 50%

 

Attack speed is a movement speed.  You may as well argue that Mprime also slows the enemy's chewing speed, and farting speed, and ......   I know it doesn't slow down their vocalization speed.  But, we know it would take some work to do so.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't think there is a question about the fact that Nova trivializes low/mid level content. The same holds true for most of the 'frames in the game in regard to their #4 skill.

 

Those skills are also excellently balanced for high level content.

 

Everything else is just semantics.

 

That's not cause for nerfs. It's cause for a more reactive level design to be instituted.

Level 30 'frame farming Mercury? You do it against like level mobs with a like level group. You want to farm it at its' original level? It pushes you into solo/private/invite only mode.

 

Everyone gets to keep their definition of fun that way except for the trolls and e-peen strokers. And these are literally the groups people are complaining about when they scream, "<insert 'frame name> is OP!".

As those are the players willfully trivializing content at the press of a button.

Those are the players who are rushing through the missions to extraction or the boss leaving newer players lost, confused and/or overwhelmed in many cases.

 

Nova is fun for Nova players. (likewise Rhino, Volt, Mag, and all the other 'frames with a wide range/high DPS #4 skill)

That doesn't mean their definition of fun should be able to remove the fun and challenge from other players though. 

It also doesn't mean a nerf is in order. If that was the case you'd need to nerf the #4 of about half of the 'frames in the game.

The better way would be to separate the two groups from one another.

[Cwierz]

I don't think there is a question about the fact that Nova trivializes low/mid level content. The same holds true for most of the 'frames in the game in regard to their #4 skill.

 

Those skills are also excellently balanced for high level content.

 

Everything else is just semantics.

 

That's not cause for nerfs. It's cause for a more reactive level design to be instituted.

Level 30 'frame farming Mercury? You do it against like level mobs with a like level group. You want to farm it at its' original level? It pushes you into solo/private/invite only mode.

 

Everyone gets to keep their definition of fun that way except for the trolls and e-peen strokers. And these are literally the groups people are complaining about when they scream, "<insert 'frame name> is OP!".

As those are the players willfully trivializing content at the press of a button.

Those are the players who are rushing through the missions to extraction or the boss leaving newer players lost, confused and/or overwhelmed in many cases.

 

Nova is fun for Nova players. (likewise Rhino, Volt, Mag, and all the other 'frames with a wide range/high DPS #4 skill)

That doesn't mean their definition of fun should be able to remove the fun and challenge from other players though. 

It also doesn't mean a nerf is in order. If that was the case you'd need to nerf the #4 of about half of the 'frames in the game.

The better way would be to separate the two groups from one another.

The difference is, is that most frames can only do that to a certain part, or not even at all. 

Frost's nuke can't kill anything past level 30.

Reckoning without damage amps cannot kill past 30

there are a lot of nukes that don't make it past 30... and in my ODS I just hosted M Prime was still doing good at level 80.

[Rakosta_Kai]

The difference is, is that most frames can only do that to a certain part, or not even at all. 

Frost's nuke can't kill anything past level 30.

Reckoning without damage amps cannot kill past 30

there are a lot of nukes that don't make it past 30... and in my ODS I just hosted M Prime was still doing good at level 80.

 

And I'd wager that Nova helped your group tremendously in that mission without trivializing the content...

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not a personal fan of the Nova. I think it trivializes content in low/mid lvl missions and bad players exploit this.

Funny Story:

I literally just completed an invasion mission where a Nova joined and started Priming Rooms on entry. I asked the Nova to hold off on the Priming as I was leveling my melee weapon and the bonus for the mission was for melee kills.

 

Did the Nova stop? Nope... Instead, the Nova commented that I shouldn't have brought a weapon that needed to be leveled and continued to Prime every room.

 

Was the content trivialized? Yes.  Does that mean Nova's #4 needs to be nerfed? No.

 

That's the fault of the player, not the skill.

 

M. Prime is balanced for high level content not low/mid.

I don't argue that it's powerful, I argue that it isn't overpowered for it's intended use.

 

It's the players that need the nerf... The best nerf M. Prime could ever get is a player kick button.

 

While I get what you are saying about nukes not being effective after level 30...

If we really looked at which ones specifically and compared them to a list of the frames presently viewed as underwhelming or in need of love, the list would match up pretty close.

 

Ash

Banshee

Frost

Excalibur

Nekros

Ember

 

Would be my list (top of my head). Of those, I'd say Ash, Banshee, Excalibur, and Frost and Ember would probably be on your own.

 

Everyone's nukes should be making it past level 30ish. Merely due to the fact that content exists prevalently for that level range.

With respect, using that basis as an argument is fallacious. As it insists that there is absolutely nothing wrong with those 'frames #4 abilities.

We all know that isn't the case.

[Kyphe]

How about the devs make it so there are drones and such which have anti ability fields which protect bots from damage AOE attacks in a certain radius until you kill them.

Have more of these in lower levels.

Have sensors which set off alarms when high powered abilities are used which summon the drones or set off static field generators.

[-CM-Syein]

The difference is, is that most frames can only do that to a certain part, or not even at all. 

Frost's nuke can't kill anything past level 30.

Reckoning without damage amps cannot kill past 30

there are a lot of nukes that don't make it past 30... and in my ODS I just hosted M Prime was still doing good at level 80.

isn't that is frost's unique abilities? Sure his ability does not gear toward dps, but it gear toward other aspect. It's def. 

What do you ask for in frost? So if frost dps equal that of Nova, which mean frost will be a top notch in both def and dps, isn't that what opness is.