Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[ThePresident777]

I'm a boring person.  I hate fun and I write all over other people's posts, all sorts of vague jibberish that does not answer their questions.  Also, I hate Warframe.   I want to change it into D&Dframe.  And, I know better than you what you enjoy.  Everybody in the world enjoys what I say they enjoy.  They are deluding themselves if they disagree with me.  Because....LOGIC!

 

Took you 18 pages to confess.

Edited January 5, 2014 by ThePresident777

[MysteryNotes]

nova lets me solo stuff i shouldnt be able to or just couldnt with another frame

 

id would have no problem at all if DE decided to nerf her, then i could actually use other frames and enjoy some variation 

 

the recent event is a good example, if u want something done fast you automatically default to nova, she just blitzed thru the map on the event either solo or carrying the entire team lol 

 

So, you're saying that you use nova because she's strong.

And if DE nerfed your "strong" frame you'd use your "weak" frames to solo the ones you couldn't solo with them before...

 

Do you even know what you're saying?

 

Nerfing "overpowered" frames isn't what DE Should be doing. Its buffing up the weak frames and balancing mobs.

I started playing this game nearly 2 weeks ago as of today.

I now have every single frame except Banshee(And excalibur prime, obviously).

 

I enjoy playing with EVERY single frame except Saryn.

Why?

Saryn is the weakest, slowest frame i've ever used.

(Don't mention rhino, because with Vanguard he's not slow. Frost is slow, but he's got a I-win button for defense missions. Snow Globe.)

Why is Saryn weak?

Her Venom is pathetic.

Her Molt is useless.

Contagion? If i wanted to go melee i'd just go loki or rhino.

Miasma? A DOT skill with a small AOE that doesn't deal particularly high damage? No thanks.

[DaveC]

So, you're saying that you use nova because she's strong.

And if DE nerfed your "strong" frame you'd use your "weak" frames to solo the ones you couldn't solo with them before...

 

Do you even know what you're saying?

 

Nerfing "overpowered" frames isn't what DE Should be doing. Its buffing up the weak frames and balancing mobs.

I started playing this game nearly 2 weeks ago as of today.

I now have every single frame except Banshee(And excalibur prime, obviously).

 

I enjoy playing with EVERY single frame except Saryn.

Why?

Saryn is the weakest, slowest frame i've ever used.

(Don't mention rhino, because with Vanguard he's not slow. Frost is slow, but he's got a I-win button for defense missions. Snow Globe.)

Why is Saryn weak?

Her Venom is pathetic.

Her Molt is useless.

Contagion? If i wanted to go melee i'd just go loki or rhino.

Miasma? A DOT skill with a small AOE that doesn't deal particularly high damage? No thanks.

You started playing 2 weeks ago....but you haven't learned very much, which is not surprising considering your massive 2 weeks of experience!

If you want to go Melee, you would use Ash...which is a very, very powerful frame and will often be standing when nothing else is. I've revived many a rhino as ash in the higher levels.

Saryns not that bad and modded Miasma is much better than it was. Saryn has good health and is far faster than Vauban or Frost.

Vauban is now a very tough frame to play, especially since infested moved away from regular missions.

Frost is a good in defense at waves above 35, but other than that, a 1 trick pony. Newer players like it though because they feel secure in the globe.

When you talk about buffing frames and what DE should do, perhaps you ought to wait 3 months, or 1000 hrs, then your opinion will be worth something. What DE SHOULD do is balance Nova in the way I have suggested (see below):

he changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly reasonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

[ThePresident777]

You started playing 2 weeks ago....but you haven't learned very much, which is not surprising considering your massive 2 weeks of experience!

If you want to go Melee, you would use Ash...which is a very, very powerful frame and will often be standing when nothing else is. I've revived many a rhino as ash in the higher levels.

Saryns not that bad and modded Miasma is much better than it was. Saryn has good health and is far faster than Vauban or Frost.

Vauban is now a very tough frame to play, especially since infested moved away from regular missions.

Frost is a good in defense at waves above 35, but other than that, a 1 trick pony. Newer players like it though because they feel secure in the globe.

When you talk about buffing frames and what DE should do, perhaps you ought to wait 3 months, or 1000 hrs, then your opinion will be worth something. What DE SHOULD do is balance Nova in the way I have suggested (see below):

he changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly reasonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

 

When you talk about buffing frames and what DE should do, perhaps you ought to spend $150+ like I did then your opinion will be worth something.  What DE should do is make a lot more missions of all kinds, unleash Nightmare Mode from RNG, and funnel all the nerfs into nightmare mode.  DE should ignore all the internet wanna be game game designers like Extra Credits who have crafted all sorts of wonderful sounding theories that are great for ripping games apart but terrible for actually making games.  DE should take a big dump on industry standards and have the balls to make a game that's bold and fun to play instead of another lame &#! D&D clone in space.

[MysteryNotes]

You started playing 2 weeks ago....but you haven't learned very much, which is not surprising considering your massive 2 weeks of experience!

If you want to go Melee, you would use Ash...which is a very, very powerful frame and will often be standing when nothing else is. I've revived many a rhino as ash in the higher levels.

Saryns not that bad and modded Miasma is much better than it was. Saryn has good health and is far faster than Vauban or Frost.

Vauban is now a very tough frame to play, especially since infested moved away from regular missions.

Frost is a good in defense at waves above 35, but other than that, a 1 trick pony. Newer players like it though because they feel secure in the globe.

When you talk about buffing frames and what DE should do, perhaps you ought to wait 3 months, or 1000 hrs, then your opinion will be worth something. What DE SHOULD do is balance Nova in the way I have suggested (see below):

he changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly reasonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

Sure, i only started 2 weeks ago or so, but thats 268 hours of playtime i have in Warframe. Take a look at how many hours per day that works out to.

Sure, it may not compare to your "1000 hours" of playtime.

 

I do take offense at your claiming i haven't learned very much though, I probably know more than the majority of players who don't even use the forums.

For an experienced player, claiming that Saryn is far faster than Vauban and frost is plain wrong.

Maybe you're the one with something to learn?

Saryn is faster than frost, true.

Vauban on the other hand, is actually faster than Saryn, with a 1.0 movespeed compared to Saryn's 0.95, mr "i know more than you."

 

Vauban tough frame to play? I've never experienced any trouble with him in T3 defense or the other missions.(Don't bring up 4hours+ of survival or endless defense to ridiculous wave numbers, because the vast majority of players don't do hardcore stuff like that.

If the game is to be balanced, it will be balanced around the majority of the player population.

Perhaps a sidenote for the hardcore players.

 

Also, if i continue at the rate i am playing at now, i will reach 1000 hours of playtime in less than 46 days.

 

And in the beginning, i never even said anything about your idea of what Nova should be like. If you actually read my post, i was replying to HAYABU5A, so i have no idea why you seem so hostile towards me, and even inferring that since i only started "2 weeks" ago i have no or little experience.

 

Look me up.http://steamcommunity.com/id/MysteryNotes

 

 

 

 

When you talk about buffing frames and what DE should do, perhaps you ought to spend $150+ like I did then your opinion will be worth something.  What DE should do is make a lot more missions of all kinds, unleash Nightmare Mode from RNG, and funnel all the nerfs into nightmare mode.  DE should ignore all the internet wanna be game game designers like Extra Credits who have crafted all sorts of wonderful sounding theories that are great for ripping games apart but terrible for actually making games.  DE should take a big dump on industry standards and have the balls to make a game that's bold and fun to play instead of another lame &#! D&D clone in space.

 

That is the most ridiculous statement i have seen. You need to spend $150 to have an opinion worth something? So people who have spent more on this game have more valid opinions?

So if i can find someone who has spent more than you on this game, and tells you that the Lato is the most powerful gun in the game, you'll accept it because he spent more, and therefore his opinion is worth more than yours?

 

No.

 

The validity of opinions should be based on how feasible and reasonable it is. NOT on how much extra cash you have laying around.

 

Sure, founders have contributed alot to  the start of this game. But perhaps if DE releases the statistics, you might even find that the total amount of money that the founders have contributed may be dwarfed by the amount every other player has contributed.

Lets look at the peak number of players on Steam today for warframe.

15,798.

Well, according to the wiki the Grandmaster program contributed USD$388,000.

Lets say EVERYONE that participated in the program bought the best package for $250 each.

That works out to 1552.

 

And lets say that EVERY grandmaster is so fanatically devoted to this game that he's online every single bloody hour.

How many non founders are there now? Oh hey, thats 14246 players that AREN'T founders.

If every one of those players has contributed $27, that'd be equivalent to the grandmaster program alone.

And according to Warframe itself, the beta has seen over 1 million players.

As long as every one of them contributed at least 38 cents that would be equal to the grandmaster program.

So you supported the DEvelopers(Yes, DE is meant to be in caps because its an abbreviation.)

That doesn't mean that other people can't have valid opinions of their own.

 

I myself am not a founder, having just started last week, yet i have already purchased over 2500 plat.

Edited January 5, 2014 by MysteryNotes

[Xhominid]

There you go putting words into other peoples mouths.....how do you know this!

The changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly resonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

 

I honestly believe having those changes would honestly KILL Nova, not balance her in any meaningul way...

 

So you are asking to give only Nova a CD on her Ultimate...how does that honestly help her at all? Considering AMB from what I heard isn't all that easy to use, Wormhole is rarely used in battles from what I've seen from it and I have never seen Null Star used, you are severely limiting a huge part of Nova's abilities simply because.

And seemingly a maxed MP goes a very far away distance and can claim enemies from a room away(pretty much like how Crush could be) so that REALLY makes it lowered in abilities like that Nekros ability in anything not Defense.

 

And finally, if her Energy Pool gets reduced to the level of the tank-like Warframes...then what is the point of Nova having Low HP and Shields then? Because I thought that was supposed to make Nova more reliable on her skills due to her low health total in general.

 

And funny because in the end, you can say the same thing about those that abuse Pull in low level missions(even mid level in some cases), Ember's World on Fire, Oberon's Ultimate(forgot it's name for some reason), Saryn's Ultimate, etc. Yes, Nova's does all 3 but if you ask for a CD on her's, you honestly know everyone else is gonna get a CD on their Ultimates too for balance sake right?

 

As I stated before and possibly will plenty of times, Nova doesn't need to be nerfed, everyone else needs to be more buffed and tuned to what they are supposed to do(Hell, BUFF Nova's other abilities so MP won't be so spammed), problem solved.

[ThePresident777]

That is the most ridiculous statement i have seen. You need to spend $150 to have an opinion worth something? So people who have spent more on this game have more valid opinions?

So if i can find someone who has spent more than you on this game, and tells you that the Lato is the most powerful gun in the game, you'll accept it because he spent more, and therefore his opinion is worth more than yours?

 

No.

 

The validity of opinions should be based on how feasible and reasonable it is. NOT on how much extra cash you have laying around.

 

Sure, founders have contributed alot to  the start of this game. But perhaps if DE releases the statistics, you might even find that the total amount of money that the founders have contributed may be dwarfed by the amount every other player has contributed.

Lets look at the peak number of players on Steam today for warframe.

15,798.

Well, according to the wiki the Grandmaster program contributed USD$388,000.

Lets say EVERYONE that participated in the program bought the best package for $250 each.

That works out to 1552.

 

And lets say that EVERY grandmaster is so fanatically devoted to this game that he's online every single bloody hour.

How many non founders are there now? Oh hey, thats 14246 players that AREN'T founders.

If every one of those players has contributed $27, that'd be equivalent to the grandmaster program alone.

And according to Warframe itself, the beta has seen over 1 million players.

As long as every one of them contributed at least 38 cents that would be equal to the grandmaster program.

So you supported the DEvelopers(Yes, DE is meant to be in caps because its an abbreviation.)

That doesn't mean that other people can't have valid opinions of their own.

 

I myself am not a founder, having just started last week, yet i have already purchased over 2500 plat.

 

Relax, I was fighting fire with fire.

[Cwierz]

Apparently let me just remind everybody what is their definition of imbalance and balance is,  and my definition, and people's definition. 

Someone who op at everything, balance or imbalance

Someone who op at one thing but terribly weak in the other, balance or imbalance

Someone who suck at everything__

Someone who is the same as every other person, same rate of survival, same defensive ability, same damage.

Someone who is good at defense, the other good at survival, and another good at damage 

Here you go seize. If something is OP it is unbalanced.  If something can trivialize all content, it is OP.

 

Nova is OP, if somebody can refute my arguments and convince me otherwise you won, but as it stands nobody has done so in pretty much any thread about nova. They continually dodge posts, and often respond with "buff everything else, Nova is a glass cannon, and the infamous universality arguments". None of them are valid.

 

Using bad grammar and the broken record technique aint gonna cut it. 

 

 

Took you 18 pages to confess.

It is quite obvious you are incapable of a rational debate and have resorted to an ad-hominem. You have no place in trying to give feedback about the game at this point.

 

Also that wasn't vague, it directly answered your post, and refuted it in full. 

 

Mostly, you just can't bear to see your favorite pet frame be touched by anything. You see this more as a personal attack then statements about the game itself. You are afraid of change and what could happen if something like this happened. Most of all you refuse to see past your blinders and will kick and scream if somebody says the word nerf. You are ignorant about why game designing principles work in the first place, and you act illogical thinking an inherently good concept isn't. You lack knowledge about the one thing you are defending, and you have repeated the same arguments over and over again like a broken record.

 

I am done with you. You have basically stooped down to the level of name calling because you can't counter anything said to you. 

Edited January 5, 2014 by Cwierz

[ThePresident777]

It is quite obvious you are incapable of a rational debate and have resorted to an ad-hominem. You have no place in trying to give feedback about the game at this point.

 

Also that wasn't vague, it directly answered your post, and refuted it in full. 

 

Mostly, you just can't bear to see your favorite pet frame be touched by anything. You see this more as a personal attack then statements about the game itself. You are afraid of change and what could happen if something like this happened. Most of all you refuse to see past your blinders and will kick and scream if somebody says the word nerf. You are ignorant about why game designing principles work in the first place, and you act illogical thinking an inherently good concept isn't. You lack knowledge about the one thing you are defending, and you have repeated the same arguments over and over again like a broken record.

 

I am done with you. You have basically stooped down to the level of name calling because you can't counter anything said to you. 

 

I asked you for specifics on this "line" that you want to "balance" all warframes around, for your metrics, and you didn't offer them.  You attempt to pass yourself off as the reasonable one, who knows better than anyone else what is good for everyone, yet you offer no specific metric or method to implement your OPINION.  What's more you have admitted to being bored by Nova, which places you in the same boat as everybody else, i.e. biased.  You are attempting to rationalize your bias.  It's a farce.  You're no better than the rest of us, actually worse for your lack of honesty and consideration.

Edited January 5, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Cwierz]

I asked you for specifics on this "line" that you want to "balance" all warframes around, for your metrics, and you didn't offer them.  

 

There is no metric for balancing, but I can give you some metrics as to why something is overpowered-

1.) Trivializes all content

2.) Outshines all similar content in every way possible outside of a tiering based system

3.) Has an unbalanced positive:negative ratio with to many positives

4.)Wiki article-Overpowered (often abbreviated to OP) is a common term referring to a perceived lack of game balance. It is often used when describing a specific class in an RPG, a specific faction in strategic games, or a specific tactic, ability, weapon or unit in various games. For something to be deemed overpowered, it is either the best choice in a disproportionate number of situations (marginalising other choices) and/or excessively hard to counter by the opponent compared to the effort required to use it.

5.) And by the god damn way. If you didn't know... we were arguing why nova was overpowered in the first place, so I find it odd that you want to know what criteria makes something OP when you jumped in an argument where the pre-requisite was knowing what makes something OP.

 

You attempt to pass yourself off as the reasonable one, who knows better than anyone else what is good for everyone, yet you offer no specific metric or method to implement your OPINION.  

 

Because that isn't what this debate is about. It is about whether nova is OP or not. However to appease you, in my person opinion the best ways to nerf M Prime would be either

a.) removing the slowdown aspect of it

b.) implementing a power in use feature, with a timer placed on it.

Either works imo.

I do not attempt to pass off as the all knowing person, thats just simply your opinion of me. I might happen to know quite a lot about the subject because I consistently am usually in one of these about nova, but I am certainly not an entitled ****

 

What's more you have admitted to being bored by Nova, which places you in the same boat as everybody else, i.e. biased.  You are attempting to rationalize your bias.  It's a farce.  You're no better than the rest of us, actually worse for your lack of honesty and consideration.

 

I admit that I sold nova because I was bored with it, as I sell most frames after I level them to 30 and play a while with them... then move to the next. Everyone is biased, and considering that I can actually support my position and you can't refute it.... well, you get the idea. I am sorry that you believe supporting a position that you have a bias for makes you an evil person. But it hasn't changed the fact that you just resorted to ad-hominems and can't support your own.

Replies in body.

If you wish, I can re-outline my arguments from the 12+ pages of the debate, again.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

Here you go seize. If something is OP it is unbalanced.  If something can trivialize all content, it is OP.

 

Nova is OP, if somebody can refute my arguments and convince me otherwise you won, but as it stands nobody has done so in pretty much any thread about nova. They continually dodge posts, and often respond with "buff everything else, Nova is a glass cannon, and the infamous universality arguments". None of them are valid.

 

Using bad grammar and the broken record technique aint gonna cut it. 

 

 

 

You doesn't seem to answer my question in the last post, and I was talking to everybody how what's their definition of imbalance and balance. 

If something is op in one area and suck in the other, that uneven in abilities is what make the game interesting, so each frames had something unique that they good at. 

I convince you many times, but if you don't see it then too bad. Likewise you haven't convince me either. 

You can't decide which one is valid and which is not just by saying it's not valid. 

Being a grammar nazi in an argument doesn't make you a better person. Either you read it or you don't. 

[ThePresident777]

Replies in body.

If you wish, I can re-outline my arguments from the 12+ pages of the debate, again.

 

What is your problem with quotes?  You forgot how to use them?

[Cwierz]

You doesn't seem to answer my question in the last post, and I was talking to everybody how what's their definition of imbalance and balance. 

If something is op in one area and suck in the other, that uneven in abilities is what make the game interesting, so each frames had something unique that they good at. 

I convince you many times, but if you don't see it then too bad. Likewise you haven't convince me either. 

You can't decide which one is valid and which is not just by saying it's not valid. 

Being a grammar nazi in an argument doesn't make you a better person. Either you read it or you don't. 

Seize, if something is OP... it is op and unbalanced. 

What is so hard to understand?

 

Also, its not OP in one area, it is OP, period, stop being a broken record... there is no "different types of OP". Things can be too good at one area, but have negatives to balance them out, and are therfor balanced. You seem to not understand what balanced means, or how overpoweredness (is that a word?) relates to it.

[-CM-Syein]

Seize, if something is OP... it is op and unbalanced. 

What is so hard to understand?

 

Also, its not OP in one area, it is OP, period, stop being a broken record... there is no "different types of OP". Things can be too good at one area, but have negatives to balance them out, and are therfor balanced. You seem to not understand what balanced means, or how overpoweredness (is that a word?) relates to it.

Likewise, if by your definition of op, Nova is not the only one that op, trinity, rhino, frost, vauban, etc are op as well. 

"Things can be too good at one area, but have negatives to balance them out, and are therfor balanced" you said/ So isn't that's Nova you're talking about here.

When you deemed someone not understand something, but your valid points isn't there, obviously that's not a persuasive argument to the other party. Try again. 

[ThePresident777]

Seize, if something is OP... it is op and unbalanced. 

What is so hard to understand?

 

Also, its not OP in one area, it is OP, period, stop being a broken record... there is no "different types of OP". Things can be too good at one area, but have negatives to balance them out, and are therfor balanced. You seem to not understand what balanced means, or how overpoweredness (is that a word?) relates to it.

 

You brought up the issue of metrics and logic and balance but you fail to show any of that.  You continue to support your opinion with yet more opinion but act otherwise.

[zzang]

You brought up the issue of metrics and logic and balance but you fail to show any of that.  You continue to support your opinion with yet more opinion but act otherwise.

the core problem with Cwierz is he sees his own opinion as fact and logical what makes his arguments ridiculously trollish.

 

This and the fact that he got nothing better to do than play forum warrior for days.

Edited January 6, 2014 by zzang

[Cwierz]

Likewise, if by your definition of op, Nova is not the only one that op, trinity, rhino, frost, vauban, etc are op as well. 

"Things can be too good at one area, but have negatives to balance them out, and are therfor balanced" you said/ So isn't that's Nova you're talking about here.

When you deemed someone not understand something, but your valid points isn't there, obviously that's not a persuasive argument to the other party. Try again. 

Nova isn't a glass cannon if you are hinting at, M Primes slowing aspect indirectly increases her bulk by reducing enemy fire rate, and due to the nature of this games scaling in combination with her mobility and the slowing aspect of M Prime, she will never go down, unless she is actively trying to tank hits directly, or the content is so highly scaled that everything goes down without a blessing.

 

Also, if you were keeping up with the times, the vanguard helmet is dumb, trinity is OP, vauban is lazily designed, frost is a band-aid for poor defense map design, and nyx really isn't that overpowered now that chaos has a power in use limiter. So yeah, I do retract some and have changed my opinions about others. But I still believe nova and trinity to be OP, and vauban to be treading pretty close. Read my response to the next quote as well if you don't mind.

 

 

You brought up the issue of metrics and logic and balance but you fail to show any of that.  You continue to support your opinion with yet more opinion but act otherwise.

 

the core problem with Cwierz is he sees his own opinion as fact and logical what makes his arguments ridiculously trollish.

 

This and the fact that he got nothing better to do than play forum warrior for days.

Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far.

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Nova has an unbalanced skill:reward ratio

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

 

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance

 

 

Disclaimer: I am against buffing other warframes, however I do deem it a viable solution if many other core mechanics within the game are also fixed, but at this moment in time DE has not stated in doing so, nor have made any indication that they will do so.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Cwierz

[ThePresident777]

Nova isn't a glass cannon if you are hinting at, M Primes slowing aspect indirectly increases her bulk by reducing enemy fire rate, and due to the nature of this games scaling in combination with her mobility and the slowing aspect of M Prime, she will never go down, unless she is actively trying to tank hits directly, or the content is so highly scaled that everything goes down without a blessing.

 

Also, if you were keeping up with the times, the vanguard helmet is dumb, trinity is OP, vauban is lazily designed, frost is a band-aid for poor defense map design, and nyx really isn't that overpowered now that chaos has a power in use limiter. So yeah, I do retract some and have changed my opinions about others. But I still believe nova and trinity to be OP, and vauban to be treading pretty close. Read my response to the next quote as well if you don't mind.

 

 

 

Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far.

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Nova has an unbalanced skill:reward ratio

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

 

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance

 

 

Disclaimer: I am against buffing other warframes, however I do deem it a viable solution if many other core mechanics within the game are also fixed, but at this moment in time DE has not stated in doing so, nor have made any indication that they will do so.

 

That doesn't answer my question at all.  I asked for those metrics you mentioned.  Exactly what is the standard by which you would "balance" all the Warframes?

[-CM-Syein]

Nova isn't a glass cannon if you are hinting at, M Primes slowing aspect indirectly increases her bulk by reducing enemy fire rate, and due to the nature of this games scaling in combination with her mobility and the slowing aspect of M Prime, she will never go down, unless she is actively trying to tank hits directly, or the content is so highly scaled that everything goes down without a blessing.

 

Also, if you were keeping up with the times, the vanguard helmet is dumb, trinity is OP, vauban is lazily designed, frost is a band-aid for poor defense map design, and nyx really isn't that overpowered now that chaos has a power in use limiter. So yeah, I do retract some and have changed my opinions about others. But I still believe nova and trinity to be OP, and vauban to be treading pretty close. Read my response to the next quote as well if you don't mind.

 

 

Which is why I said m-prime contribute to her survival. And now you nerf it for a squishy frame? Oh yes, she will go down, why do you think Trinity, Rhino, Loki etc are most vote as one of the best frames for solo, while frost, vauban are most vote as best frames for defense? Why not Nova. 

And again, I said you seem to have problem with not only Nova but with almost everything in the game that you deem should be nerf while the reasoning is nothing else but "dumb/ lazily design/ op again/ band-aid/ hmmm? 

[-CM-Syein]

.Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far.

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Nova has an unbalanced skill:reward ratio

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

 

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance

 

 

Disclaimer: I am against buffing other warframes, however I do deem it a viable solution if many other core mechanics within the game are also fixed, but at this moment in time DE has not stated in doing so, nor have made any indication that they will do so.

Again, you only stating Nova's damage. Yes, her whole purpose is a damage frame.

I could pick out a random frame, carefully select out all the skills they best at, put every little detail about their abilities, and label that frame as "op" without mentioning the con of that frame. 

-She had largest damage is because she doesn't have high survival ability.

-Her ultimate is the best but her shield/health/def ability/solo/tanking/survival are all suck/ 

-What average nuker are you specific about? 

-Loki a better survival than Nova, and that radial disarm in some situations are more useful than m-prime since it permanently let you live for longer time in case chain no longer explode/ plus Nova health and shield is considered to be one of the lowest. Rhino with his helmet can be the top 4th fastest frame in the game.

-Every frames with the right mods capable of casting their energy at an efficient amount with no drawback, Nova is not an exception

-Shield polarize capable of dealing the same range with Nova, cost less energy, restore shield, took off shield from opponent. If use on the right faction, it can be far more op (it's a 2nd ability) . Nova's power is base on range, some power had different purpose that doesn't need range (such as trinity's well of life, or Rhino iron skin etc) can you imagine a frost had the same range as Nova and made a huge snowglobe in battlefield? That only make him at a disadvantage. 

-If you mean unbalance as in high damage but weak survival

-She outshine every frames in term of damage, Trinity/Ash/Loki outshine everyone in survival, Frost/Vauban outshine everyone at defense, Rhino outshine everyone at efficiency, Nyx outshine everyone at crowd control__so? 

-There are many frames capable of on par with Nova, not in damage, but in other areas. The frames that need to be buff are fewer than you think and those included Volt, Ember, Valkyr, Excalibur, and Banshee

[DaveC]

I feel if they do end up subtracting utility from her molecular prime, they'd best subtract the slowing effect of M Prime. It is massive (and easily the best) CC at this point in the game's development due to the triple-threat combination of AOE, Double Damage, and Slowing. If you take out one of the two extra effects (or reduce the magnitude), it would be more acceptable than per se, reducing the damage M Prime itself deals without the double damage.

The increased damage received is necessary to trigger Molecular Prime on higher levels, so slowing the enemies down should be the one thing to go, if they do end up nerfing it.

She certainly makes T3 defense a lot easier than it normally is.

This is the greatest twisted argument to nerf something that will make little if any difference. Nerfing the slow serves no purpose on low level content, because it dies so easy anyway and is no threat to the Nova. Were talking first 20-25 waves of defense or 15-20m of survival. In fact the slow is a real pain in the butt, because it doesn't help at all at low levels. Most Novas would prefer no slow in low level content.

In high level content, they are slowed so little it makes no real difference. When I last played my Nova, perhaps 3 months ago, high level content was hardly affected by slow.

So again the Nova players simply twisting things to suit themselves. I have just come from a few days of playing and NONE of the in game Novas were like the wonderful Novas described in this thread. They all spawn killed, spammed ulti every few seconds across the entire map (even for 1 enemy), ran off and did their own thing in Survival (with full rush only a loki can catch em). Then all leave around 20m or 15-20 waves. Trying to level something up is difficult and you end up wondering why you bothered.

Edited January 6, 2014 by DaveC

[zzang]

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

As long as you ignore the weaknesses and arguments of me and other people i dont feel any need to counter your "opinion"

i have my own opinion about whats balance and whats fun and i think its a better opinion about the game than you have.

 

Again we as a player base should thank the developer heaven that a person like you will never be in response of any good game because your opinion just gonna ruin it and make it a plain boring nerfed to crap game.

Edited January 6, 2014 by zzang

[Cwierz]

Again, you only stating Nova's damage. Yes, her whole purpose is a damage frame.

I could pick out a random frame, carefully select out all the skills they best at, put every little detail about their abilities, and label that frame as "op" without mentioning the con of that frame. 

Entire statement untrue.

 

-She had largest damage is because she doesn't have high survival ability.

Lies, M Prime, Her mobility, and nature of the games scaling make it so that she has more effective bulk then excalibur, and I don't see anybody calling him squishy.

 

-Her ultimate is the best but her shield/health/def ability/solo/tanking/survival are all suck/ 

No. Read above

 

-What average nuker are you specific about? 

Every warframe that is damage based. Volt, Mag, Ember.... you get the drift. Surprised you actually needed to talk about this.

 

-Loki a better survival than Nova, and that radial disarm in some situations are more useful than m-prime since it permanently let you live for longer time in case chain no longer explode/ plus Nova health and shield is considered to be one of the lowest. Rhino with his helmet can be the top 4th fastest frame in the game.

Loki with invis has high surviveability, she has the same health/shields as vauban and a couple other frames. Rhino is third, and shouldn't be there in the first place, and nova is faster regardless. The only frame that outspeeds nova is loki.

 

-Every frames with the right mods capable of casting their energy at an efficient amount with no drawback, Nova is not an exception

This is a lie. They will have a much smaller duration, and this can make or break some frames.

 

-Shield polarize capable of dealing the same range with Nova, cost less energy, restore shield, took off shield from opponent. If use on the right faction, it can be far more op (it's a 2nd ability) . Nova's power is base on range, some power had different purpose that doesn't need range (such as trinity's well of life, or Rhino iron skin etc) can you imagine a frost had the same range as Nova and made a huge snowglobe in battlefield? That only make him at a disadvantage. 

Shield polarize does not work against 3/5ths of enemy types by a rough fraction. It requires very high levels to start doing what you say... which are pretty dumb in general. Nuking frames always welcome more range, more range = more damage, in fact exempting a few circumstances there are very few frames that don't welcome range, and thats because their abilities are affected in a way they might not want or not affected at all. Don't blow that off because of a couple outliers.

 

-If you mean unbalance as in high damage but weak survival

She isn't weak in survival, she has more bulk then an excalibur, nyx, ember, mag and volt depending on faction, nekros, valkyr, and banshee if you consider all other relevant factors. Do you actually know what is separating her from the average bulk? 75 shields, that is it. That is near meaningless in the first place, let alone with a bunch of things that indirectly increase her survive ability.

 

-She outshine every frames in term of damage, Trinity/Ash/Loki outshine everyone in survival, Frost/Vauban outshine everyone at defense, Rhino outshine everyone at efficiency, Nyx outshine everyone at crowd control__so? 

That may be so, but those frames you mention cannot do anything else besides their own roles, they don't have the best soft CC in the game, or the 2nd highest movement rate. They are strictly regulated to their one role, and can barely hope to branch into anything else.

 

 

-There are many frames capable of on par with Nova, not in damage, but in other areas. The frames that need to be buff are fewer than you think and those included Volt, Ember, Valkyr, Excalibur, and Banshee

Most of the frames you listed do need to be buffed, but nova also needs to be nerfed... In the rhino rebalancing thread the guy told you exacatally why, and you responded with meaningless stuff. If we only buff we will go in a redundant cycle, and that is dumb. Don't be dumb.

Replies in body

 

As long as you ignore the weaknesses and arguments of me and other people i dont feel any need to counter your "opinion"

i have my own opinion about whats balance and whats fun and i think its a better opinion about the game than you have.

 

Again we as a player base should thank the developer heaven that a person like you will never be in response of any good game because your opinion just gonna ruin it and make it a plain boring nerfed to crap game.

Nova has no visible weakness besides not being the best frame in certain areas. I explained why in my post, maybe if you read it....

 

Side note: Calling something an opinion doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means it has to be proved to other people and you must convince them (sometimes this can be hard because they are incapable of seeing past confirmation bias, and I can assure you I have done so many a times on this topic alone)

 

It appears you are incapable of refuting the main post, and there are obvious flaws in your logic.

 

flaws in logic-

"My opinion is better than yours even though I haven't supported it!"

Thinking that nerfs are inherently bad

Using fun as a metric for game balance

Thinking that arguing is as simple as calling something an opinion and feeling good about yourself

Making personal attacks because you can't address the main argument.

Thinking that fully refuted arguments are still valid

 

 

That doesn't answer my question at all.  I asked for those metrics you mentioned.  Exactly what is the standard by which you would "balance" all the Warframes?

Really, I mentioned metrics once. I called fun a crappy metric, that doesn't mean I have to answer to your baseless grabs and a failed point. Fun is a crap metric period. Just to make sure you know as well... that doesn't even mean I am using metrics in the first place, and thinking so is illogical.  I am using one, but I don't feel like telling you because it will start a useless side topic that you will illogically relate back to the main topic.

 

This isn't relevant at all, and I am now fully convinced without a doubt you cannot and will not ever disprove my statement above.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

Replies in body

 

-You comparing Nova to Excalibur? Everyone know that he's one of the frame that need to be buff, a beginner frame recommend, and his shield is better than Nova. Also his radial blind is a survival ability. If radial blind actually been put to Nova, now she would be op. Also I copy and paste this about worm hole: 

"Worm hole had limit to where you going, worm hole also cost 75 energy (no extra mod) per use, and molecular prime is 100 energy (no extra mod) per use, so basically if you use more than 2-3 worm hole, you likely won't be able to use any m-prime at all. Worm hole travel at a straight distance, the map is not that easy (unless it's a spacious place such as void) with no obstacle so Nova likely drop somewhere in the map and have to use worm hole again to get out of that spot. I haven't seen many Nova spam worm hole during the fight unless they were heading toward extraction point. " 

If worm hole actually contribute to Nova mobility, then nope, it's an obstacle prevent her from spamming m-prime, and sometimes it teleported her somewhere and stuck there. So the other mobility you talking about is sprint speed, which I already explained about her speed. 

-Shield, Heath, survival ability are all suck. 

-So are you had problem with her sprint or her ultimate then?  Loki is the highest survival so he given that speed, Nova is weak in survival so she given that speed. She had the same health shield as Vauban, Vauban is a defensive frame, his bastile and vortex are rate highly. Nova's health is the lowest but higher than mag, but mag had a very high shield + shield polarize.. Armor actually contribute not much, the proof is from Valkyr, having 300 armor + max steel fiber and still a squishy frame.  I don't mind using a mag in survival mission while you use a Nova and spam constant m-prime, we'll see who survive longer and who dps higher against corpus, void faction. 

- umm, before saying this is a lies, prove why it's a lies. If I wanted to, I could put max fleeting expertise, steamline on mag and spam shield polarize all day for less than 12.5 energy cost and still deal higher dps than Nova in def/ survival mission for corpus or void faction. Considered my mag and Nova had the same maxing skill/ similar mods setup. 

-She isn't weak in survival? It's because of her m-prime, and why do you think people choose frames such as Rhino, Mag, Nyx, Trinity, frost for solo instead of Nova? Because the chain doesn't explode much with mobs who doesn't go in hordes. 

-Most other frames had one or the other that make up for them in term of low shield and low health, Valkyr is one example of low shield and low health but make up for her high armor. 

-The frames I mention can do their own roles, Nova's roles is damage. But that doesn't mean they can only stick to their role, Trinity is a healer as well for survival, solo, and tanking. Loki capable of survival, solo, and his radial disarm helped in all situation. Their abilities capable to help them in all area, it is up to you to be able to use it or not. 

-In the Rhino rebalance stuff, I already replied him back, it meaningless or not, does not up to you to decide it. Those frames need buff, and why Nova doesn't need nerf I already state why. 

Edited January 6, 2014 by SElZE

[Cwierz]

-You comparing Nova to Excalibur? Everyone know that he's one of the frame that need to be buff, a beginner frame recommend, and his shield is better than Nova. Also his radial blind is a survival ability. If radial blind actually been put to Nova, now she would be op. Also I copy and paste this about worm hole: 

Excalibur doesn't need a buff, there needs to a cap on endgame, and don't dodge the fact that nova has more bulk. Excalibur might be able to CC, but in my experience it helps your team more than you. You really can't shoot at all while blinding and it has a lengthy cast time. I just finished leveling up excalibur right now that I just farmed at pluto.

 

 

"Worm hole had limit to where you going, worm hole also cost 75 energy (no extra mod) per use, and molecular prime is 100 energy (no extra mod) per use, so basically if you use more than 2-3 worm hole, you likely won't be able to use any m-prime at all. Worm hole travel at a straight distance, the map is not that easy (unless it's a spacious place such as void) with no obstacle so Nova likely drop somewhere in the map and have to use worm hole again to get out of that spot. I haven't seen many Nova spam worm hole during the fight unless they were heading toward extraction point. " 

I wasn't going anywhere with wormhole, and even so it is the most powerful rushing tool to date if you know how to use it properly. (believe me I have seen it during the corpus void event). She is more maneuverable simply because she is inherently faster, there isn't anything else to say.. moving around faster = less hits.

 

 

-Shield, Heath, survival ability are all suck. 

Straight up lies at this point. Her health is right on the average, and her shield is slightly lower, with armor right on the average. Between Null Star/Wormhole for whatever they are worth, M Prime, her mobility, and the nature of the game scaling she will never ever go down unless she is actively trying to tank hits, or the enemies are scaled stupidly high.

-So are you had problem with her sprint or her ultimate then?  Loki is the highest survival so he given that speed, Nova is weak in survival so she given that speed. She had the same health shield as Vauban, Vauban is a defensive frame, his bastile and vortex are rate highly. Nova's health is the lowest but higher than mag, but mag had a very high shield + shield polarize.. Armor actually contribute not much, the proof is from Valkyr, having 300 armor + max steel fiber and still a squishy frame.  I don't mind using a mag in survival mission while you use a Nova and spam constant m-prime, we'll see who survive longer and who dps higher against corpus, void faction. 

Novas health is not the lowest, it is 300. The same as rhino no less. The difference between the armor values is much more prevalent the lower you go, but then again you never know what you are talking about anyways, let alone how scaling works in the game. Shield polarize is hardly valid, because it once again requires the dumb high levels to work, and doesn't even work on 3/5ths of all enemy types.  

 

- umm, before saying this is a lies, prove why it's a lies. If I wanted to, I could put max fleeting expertise, steamline on mag and spam shield polarize all day for less than 12.5 energy cost and still deal higher dps than Nova in def/ survival mission for corpus or void faction. Considered my mag and Nova had the same maxing skill/ similar mods setup. 

Read bold above, also I said most when talking about the impact of fleeting expertise. There are a few exceptions... but hardly enough to say "it doesn't even matter!". That is bullS#&$ and you know it, it matters quite a bit. Also, if we are going to cherry pick how about you take your mag to my infested defense mission and say you are doing better than a M Prime spam bot.

 

-She isn't weak in survival? It's because of her m-prime, and why do you think people choose frames such as Rhino, Mag, Nyx, Trinity, frost for solo instead of Nova? Because the chain doesn't explode much with mobs who doesn't go in hordes. 

-Most other frames had one or the other that make up for them in term of low shield and low health, Valkyr is one example of low shield and low health but make up for her high armor. 

Every frame can solo, with no difficulty at all. This game is not terribly difficult.  There are people who run to 15 on outer terminus with a volt, pre damage 2.0 and volt buffs.

 

 

-The frames I mention can do their own roles, Nova's roles is damage. But that doesn't mean they can only stick to their role, Trinity is a healer as well for survival, solo, and tanking. Loki capable of survival, solo, and his radial disarm helped in all situation. Their abilities capable to help them in all area, it is up to you to be able to use it or not. 

Every frame is capable of soloing, this argument is invalid. The other thing is, they can stick to their role, but they shouldn't be the best at more than one... which nova is. There is no excuse, and pointing to trinity, who is another blatantly OP frame doesn't help your case. 

 

-In the Rhino rebalance stuff, I already replied him back, it meaningless or not, does not up to you to decide it. Those frames need buff, and why Nova doesn't need nerf I already state why. 

Tell me why every time a new piece of content is introduced that is questionable, we move the baseline instead of moving it back. It wastes precious development time and is completely redundant. We don't need to push into higher levels, we need a more manageable power level and a structured endgame, not this happy go lucky buff everything route. It is so dumb, I don't understand why people think it will work.

The main point here, and this is the only thing I wan't you to respond to because your posts are a bit to long and hard to sit through is this.

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance

 

Nova has no weakness in bulk, she is better than a decent amount of frames. She has average health, armor, and less than average shields. However, this is completely offset by her mobility, M prime, and the nature of the games scaling predominately. There is no arguing this, it is fact. Every frame can solo, and every frame has decent survive-ability because of the mobility:bulk curve the game has, stop using them it just doesn't work. I don't realize why you think repeating fully refuted to the point of no return arguments supports anything you are saying. (here is a quote from far cry 3- The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting the results to change, that is what you are doing)

 

Really man, she shouldn't be so good at everything, and the only counter argument has been slightly valid is an extremely flawed response of "buff everything1!!". It doesn't work, you cannot just make everything more powerful and not expect a cycle of redundancy, and it breaks even the most simple game design principles.