Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[Xhominid]

Yeah didn't bother reading them after the first answer

 

Then there's no point in taking anything you say with any credibility now then.

 

 

I cannot dechiper half of this. This isn't me being a grammar nazi, but I literally cannot read through this correctly. You need to work on english if it isn't your first language... seriously.

 

I highlighted when I could understand and its all I am going to respond to.

 

25 energy out of a ~400 energy pool, do you really believe that she is going to run out of energy ever? Especially with orbs and siphon. Energy management does not exist for nova, that is a pretty dumb argument.

 

Actually, vauban  banshee, ember, and nyx all have less. Don't straight up lie. Also, don't respond with bullS#&$ like "they have survivability skills!!1!", because you obviously refuse to consider novas.

 

I want to simply point out these 2:

 

1. You go on and say that when you play a Nightmare mission that takes away Energy or the faithful time you DO run out of energy and say that. And secondly, unless there are other classes that goes spam happy with their energy like fools, they would hit the same level as Nova really fast with their energy usage(only a few classes need to expend their energy all the time to begin with).

 

2. They don't even have as "less" as Nova does, considering her Armor isn't all that high either. And then you say consider Nova's when the only one that can be used efficiently is her Ulti while everyone else you listed pretty much are free in that regard and even then, Nova barely has any Invicibility Frames during M-Prime to begin with as I have found out many times using her.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

 

 

Now I’m sure some of you say “Well, they can always choose not to, for the sake of not ruining other players’ gaming experience!” But that’s a pretty big assumption that said player actually gives a damn about your playing experience above their own. Yeah, it’s a choice, and some players choose their own enjoyment over others’. The problem is they are being given that choice in the first place because it is TOO EASY to spam powers, even the most expensive and devastating. Maybe it was intentional by DE, maybe not, but it is an aspect of the game that i, personally, disagree with strongly. I feel powers should not be spammable, but should be there for 'oh S#&$!' moments and for tactical purposes, but that sort of use is completely glossed over due to the abundance of energy.

 

So let’s put this all into perspective and this can be treated as the TLDR:

 

1. Players with large investments of time and gear into their warframes are able to join low level, inexperienced players in the same game/map/instance.
2. Most of the time, their reasons are for the rewards, such as mats, mods, and cores.
3. Energy is TOO plentiful, energy management is TOO easy. Powers are TOO spammable and most people choose to do so regardless of who disagrees because they are –able- to do so.
4. Something I haven’t iterated above, Novas are by far the most common of warframes, theres almost always 1 in every game, sometimes multiple. So naturally Nova is given the most exposure.

 

 

-Hammie

Let me give you a idea here. You should be able to use your abilities if you have certian mods equipped. I don't want to play a dried out FPS that really has no fun factor/ninja factor in it other than the abilities per say. They doubled energy cost sometime ago. So, really abilities aren't spammable even in end game situations considering how much of the mobs spawn and the damage they deal with the broken scaling. So you want to triple the cost and have abilities be rare as hell? No i reject the idea merely cause now you will end up making this game dry as it is already. It needs the ninja factor added to this and story line not a energy cost increase. They did this already. I find myself out of energy pretty frequently already with streamline equipped on frost. Don't make things worse please.

[Cwierz]

Then there's no point in taking anything you say with any credibility now then.

 

 

 

I want to simply point out these 2:

 

1. You go on and say that when you play a Nightmare mission that takes away Energy or the faithful time you DO run out of energy and say that. And secondly, unless there are other classes that goes spam happy with their energy like fools, they would hit the same level as Nova really fast with their energy usage(only a few classes need to expend their energy all the time to begin with).

 

2. They don't even have as "less" as Nova does, considering her Armor isn't all that high either. And then you say consider Nova's when the only one that can be used efficiently is her Ulti while everyone else you listed pretty much are free in that regard and even then, Nova barely has any Invicibility Frames during M-Prime to begin with as I have found out many times using her.

1.  2 energy siphons counteracts energy drain, however do not ignore the point that a nova will never run out of energy with the maximum spam build, it simply won't happen. 25 energy for the largest AOE ability, that stays with an enemy for a good 30-60 seconds.

 

2. Nova has the same armor as excalibur, which is 65 and is shared with most warframes. Vauban has the exact same stats as her except he has 15 armor instead. Also, because of the nature of warframe armor, the difference between lower values is vastly more recognizble, It is safe to presume that nova has more baseline bulk then the rest of the frames I mentioned. Also, it is safe to presume her mobility adds to her bulk (this is obvious, and if you deny it I doubt your intelligence).

 

M Prime slows enemies, which reduces DPS and is the main point, please lurk more. However if you are looking for invincibility frames there are a couple in null star that are fairly easy to time if you know what you are doing.

 

I am serious, the amount of people who refuse to lurk arguments and post in them anyways is so stupid. If you are not keeping track of the arguments and ideas presented, you shouldn't post unless you know every single thing possible.

[ThePresident777]

1.  2 energy siphons counteracts energy drain, however do not ignore the point that a nova will never run out of energy with the maximum spam build, it simply won't happen. 25 energy for the largest AOE ability, that stays with an enemy for a good 30-60 seconds.

 

2. Nova has the same armor as excalibur, which is 65 and is shared with most warframes. Vauban has the exact same stats as her except he has 15 armor instead. Also, because of the nature of warframe armor, the difference between lower values is vastly more recognizble, It is safe to presume that nova has more baseline bulk then the rest of the frames I mentioned. Also, it is safe to presume her mobility adds to her bulk (this is obvious, and if you deny it I doubt your intelligence).

 

M Prime slows enemies, which reduces DPS and is the main point, please lurk more. However if you are looking for invincibility frames there are a couple in null star that are fairly easy to time if you know what you are doing.

 

I am serious, the amount of people who refuse to lurk arguments and post in them anyways is so stupid. If you are not keeping track of the arguments and ideas presented, you shouldn't post unless you know every single thing possible.

 

Ultra rare mods are no reason to nerf anything other than the ultra rare mods.

 

And, again, If Nova with 75 shields has double survivability via Mprime, then so do all the other warframes who play with her, and possibly more if they have higher shields than her. So, it's not an advantage specific to her. It's a shared advantage so you can't say it makes her more powerful than another warframe on account of it. We are talking about the coop side of the game here, not PvP.

[NikolaiLev]

Ultra rare mods are no reason to nerf anything other than the ultra rare mods.

 

And, again, If Nova with 75 shields has double survivability via Mprime, then so do all the other warframes who play with her, and possibly more if they have higher shields than her. So, it's not an advantage specific to her. It's a shared advantage so you can't say it makes her more powerful than another warframe on account of it. We are talking about the coop side of the game here, not PvP.

 

Uh?  Yes you can, because Nova is the source of the survivability.

[Xhominid]

1.  2 energy siphons counteracts energy drain, however do not ignore the point that a nova will never run out of energy with the maximum spam build, it simply won't happen. 25 energy for the largest AOE ability, that stays with an enemy for a good 30-60 seconds.

Well then good luck getting that hard to get Aura, so can we seriously stop with "If Nova gets X, then it makes her X" crap? You can say the same about EVERY. OTHER. CLASS.

 

2. Nova has the same armor as excalibur, which is 65 and is shared with most warframes. Vauban has the exact same stats as her except he has 15 armor instead. Also, because of the nature of warframe armor, the difference between lower values is vastly more recognizble, It is safe to presume that nova has more baseline bulk then the rest of the frames I mentioned. Also, it is safe to presume her mobility adds to her bulk (this is obvious, and if you deny it I doubt your intelligence).

She only has that bulk because out of one move, she has no real way to get out of pressure situations. And sure, that helps at low-midgame content, but honestly, tell me how much that helps against high end Survival Monsters? Because I can easily see she's gonna be dead regardless of M.Prime spam.

 

M Prime slows enemies, which reduces DPS and is the main point, please lurk more. However if you are looking for invincibility frames there are a couple in null star that are fairly easy to time if you know what you are doing.

I have a Nova, I know that already and I even mentioned that numerous times, fail more. Secondly, Null Star barely has the invincibility frames to save your &#! from multiple enemies. You are still rooted to the spot and straight after that, high end enemies will most likely tank all of the hits and you will still be screwed.

 

I am serious, the amount of people who refuse to lurk arguments and post in them anyways is so stupid. If you are not keeping track of the arguments and ideas presented, you shouldn't post unless you know every single thing possible.

Funny because I actually did lurk and read the majority of the arguments present and most of it is complete hogwash. Plenty of stated that Nova's M.Prime loses it's damage usefulness at the endgame, leaving only the Slowness and Double Damage(which even the damage only comes from detonating the target by shooting at it and hoping that there are mobs right next to the affected one.

Secondly, If you are mainly account the low-midgame content, you can still say the same thing about every other high end Warframe! Rhino is one of the most used simply because his abilities are freaking ridiculous and you literally can't die if you even have the slightest bit of energy to begin with. Ember is absolutely ridiculous at the low-midgame content, have Max Focus, Fire Damage Mods and Accelerant and if all else fails, World on Fire. Mag Pull and Crush Spam, Nyx's Absorb, etc.

I've heard so many thing about how ridiculous X's ability is to Y Warframe and this really has to stop. DE hasn't done anything to Nova because to them, SHE IS BALANCED and I remember BlatantFool stating how certain Warframes and weapons are built for endgame and it honestly makes a hell of alot more sense than "M.Prime is broken and the main proof is the early-midgame content"...

 

Replies in bold

 

Uh?  Yes you can, because Nova is the source of the survivability.

 

That makes no sense...

You can say the same of Trinities spamming Well of Life(or their Ultimate if that isn't it), Varuban using that Net in ODD, Mag Pulls, Frost's Snow Globe and if they all had Energy Siphon, they would be capable of spamming those moves too so Nova is different because?

[ThePresident777]

Uh?  Yes you can, because Nova is the source of the survivability.

 

And the conclusion would be that they all bennefit therefore you can't say that Nova is deriving something from that power that other Warframes are not.  You can't say that this is a bennefit exclusive ot Nova because it is shared.  Therefore you can't say she has more of this one thing than other warframes because they all have it regardless of what the source is.

 

You want to say that she is not squishy because of mprimes slowing effect.  Well, the effect applies to the rest of the team so they are all not squishy because of mprime's slowing effect.  All the warframes get the bennefit therefore one is not more powerful than the others in this regard on account of mprime.

Edited January 10, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Zkorp]

After playing intensively my Nova frame, I can say that MP is powerfull at low level, but that the frame by itself is in no way overpowered when you reach semi-high level content : 40 minutes + in survival, wave 40 in ODS. At this point it's a good support frame usefull for the group but very frail and without any real defensive abilities, excepted his mobility. I don't feel OP at all when I reach this point...

 

We play a game to have fun time, I don't really get the point why some people get angry because some frame get more kill than them in the noobs playground. My most played frame was the Valkyr and for a lot of time I struggled hard to get high kill counts. Nova was refreshing for me at this point.

[Inez]

We play a game to have fun time,

Heretic.

[-CM-Syein]

I cannot dechiper half of this. This isn't me being a grammar nazi, but I literally cannot read through this correctly. You need to work on english if it isn't your first language... seriously.

 

I highlighted when I could understand and its all I am going to respond to.

 

25 energy out of a ~400 energy pool, do you really believe that she is going to run out of energy ever? Especially with orbs and siphon. Energy management does not exist for nova, that is a pretty dumb argument.

 

Actually, vauban  banshee, ember, and nyx all have less. Don't straight up lie. Also, don't respond with bullS#&$ like "they have survivability skills!!1!", because you obviously refuse to consider novas.

So what I'm saying is, you seriously underestimate Mag's damage. 

DE already nerf gameplay, make it harder for Nova to use m-prime against non-hordes mobs. Yes, she can run out of energy, every frames can. DE also nerf the drop rate in mobs, mean less energy drop on the ground compared to before. 

 Nova's mobility skill cost the most energy among all mobility skill. this isn't even about energy pool, it's about Nova. 

And the frames that you listed, I already stated on my other forum that those frames need buff. Vanban is an awesome frames to combine with other frames.

And drop your bad words, it's worst than my so called engrish. 

[zzang]

I am serious, the amount of people who refuse to lurk arguments and post in them anyways is so stupid. If you are not keeping track of the arguments and ideas presented, you shouldn't post unless you know every single thing possible.

well i count you into the amount of people as you still havent presented any acceptable "metric parameters"(solutions) as you call them

also i only can reply what you reply to other people's arguments when you refuse them or just completely ignore them and jump to a different point

to make you look better.

 

"You should look more into arguments" and not refuse or completely ignore them when trying to prove your opinion as "fact"

 

in this case i would gave you some credibility but as long as you continue your behaviour you dont deserve any.

 

Also everytime you called someone in your post stupid or their argument stupid without disproving it or just ignoring it does make your argument not even a little bit better but farther proves your incapability of having a normal conversation with opinions being discussed.

 

Achieving a acceptable level of balance in a coop game is fine and in my opinion the level of balance is acceptable for a coop game (only considering the good frames ofcourse the very weak ones like valkyre, volt, ash need buffing for end game content therefore i call them still unbalanced).

 

This is with no doubt not a pvp game and certainly there is not a mathematical or purely logical answer for what is 100% balanced and what is not you should start getting this by now (this is not teamfortress or chess) which obviously are player vs player based games where balance is what makes the game entertaining because people rely on balance to beat other people and find it fair.

The answer can be clear if it meets the requirements stated in https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53259-dont-even-nerf-thread-till-you-own-it-please-give-it-a-read/.

 

Keeping entertainment and balance in line without one side losing to much to the other side is much more important for a pve coop game like warframe(and you should know this if you know anything about game design like you claim)that should deliver entertainment through gameplay and useful weapons/warframes than just nerfing stuff into a useless placeholder. But i guess your "logic" didnt told you so.

Edited January 10, 2014 by zzang

[Cwierz]

well i count you into the amount of people as you still havent presented any acceptable "metric parameters"(solutions) as you call them

also i only can reply what you reply to other people's arguments when you refuse them or just completely ignore them and jump to a different point

to make you look better.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53259-dont-even-nerf-thread-till-you-own-it-please-give-it-a-read/.

 

I read the first paragraph and know you are talking out of your &#!, and refuse/are incapable of the ability to comprehend posts.

 

Also, I saw the link. I have owned nova, and I have thought quite a bit about her. Nobody at this point has disproved the list of arguments I had listed a couple (maybe more) pages back. Once somebody does that I will respond.

[-CM-Syein]

I read the first paragraph and know you are talking out of your &#!, and refuse/are incapable of the ability to comprehend posts.

 

Also, I saw the link. I have owned nova, and I have thought quite a bit about her. Nobody at this point has disproved the list of arguments I had listed a couple (maybe more) pages back. Once somebody does that I will respond.

I already does that, you haven't respond D: 

[Volume]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

[zzang]

I read the first paragraph and know you are talking out of your &#!, and refuse/are incapable of the ability to comprehend posts.

 

Also, I saw the link. I have owned nova, and I have thought quite a bit about her. Nobody at this point has disproved the list of arguments I had listed a couple (maybe more) pages back. Once somebody does that I will respond.

 

well of course they was disproved so no need to beat a dead horse but you just ignored the points like you did with my points.

And claiming the opposite makes your statement a false one. So the only one talking out of his &#! can be you.

You should look more into arguments instead of ignoring them to your advance but i know thats just strategy that contains refusing, ignoring and jumping to other arguments everytime you are not able to disprove anything. Your posts look like a incabability of reading comprehension although i know you just ignore points consciously to keep this topic alive.

 

 

just one thing nova is one of the best frames to deal damage with but thats not a argument thats her role she was designed for and she fits perfectly in that role.

 

And again your language make you look like a 15 year old keyboard warrior that want to brag with his intellect on the interwebs although this is a clear sign for a lack of it.

 

on a sidenote: a reduction in attack speed is beneficial for the whole group not just nova or is it what you want to imply that a group of 4 novas is the best team ever?

Edited January 11, 2014 by zzang

[Xhominid]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

Unless all of those enemies are all stuck exactly near each other, of course one M.Prime would defeat World on Fire, otherwise WoF is far better

[ThePresident777]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

 

Ember would detonate the Mprime so you could not say that one Warframe killed all those enemies.  The kill count algorithm that would alot all those kills to mprime is wrong.

Edited January 11, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Davoodoo]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

Now put lvl 200 enemies in same scenario and guess what. Ember wins. Though it wont bring any utility to team.

[Trikan]

Who CARES about the killing ability of M.Prime. It's not why it's good, only baddies care about mid level content.

[NikolaiLev]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

 

But at least Ember has tons of survivability with Overheat!

 

... Oh wait.

 

 

 

Now put lvl 200 enemies in same scenario and guess what. Ember wins. Though it wont bring any utility to team.

I'd like to see you try to explain how.  Because the only scaling ability Ember has is Accelerant, which requires her to be in the middle of the enemy to use it.

 

Meanwhile, MPrime scales in two significant ways; it lowers their damage output via attack speed slow, and makes them take double damage.

 

No, Nova's still winning that fight, especially when you get into efficiency, which matters a lot in high level.

Edited January 11, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[ThePresident777]

But at least Ember has tons of survivability with Overheat!

 

... Oh wait.

 

 

 

I'd like to see you try to explain how.  Because the only scaling ability Ember has is Accelerant, which requires her to be in the middle of the enemy to use it.

 

Meanwhile, MPrime scales in two significant ways; it lowers their damage output via attack speed slow, and makes them take double damage.

 

No, Nova's still winning that fight, especially when you get into efficiency, which matters a lot in high level.

 

Sounds like another argument for buffing other Warframes.

[-CM-Syein]

If you put a Nova and an Ember in the same room and said "Kill these 50 enemies, whoever clears first wins" one M-Prime will finish that MUCH faster than any ability Ember has.

this is one of the most ignorance post i saw. How many times people in this forum post it over and over that everyone agreed Nova's dps is the best out of all frames, possibly below some frames vs corpus factions or in some other situations. 

And everyone know that she is a pure dps frame. You obviously post a scenario where Nova would be at an advantage and take that as a valid comparison? 

[NikolaiLev]

Sounds like another argument for buffing other Warframes.

 

Or, you know, nerfing the couple that are outliers so we avoid power creep.

 

Nerfing Nova and Rhino leaves less room for error than buffing Saryn, Loki, Ash, Excalibur, Ember, Oberon, Nekros... you get my point (hopefully).

 

And once those are nerfed, we can look at the high-end of enemies and nerf those accordingly so the power level is maintained, instead of strewn about helter-skelter.

[-CM-Syein]

Or, you know, nerfing the couple that are outliers so we avoid power creep.

 

Nerfing Nova and Rhino leaves less room for error than buffing Saryn, Loki, Ash, Excalibur, Ember, Oberon, Nekros... you get my point (hopefully).

 

And once those are nerfed, we can look at the high-end of enemies and nerf those accordingly so the power level is maintained, instead of strewn about helter-skelter.

power creep is only an option if Nova and Rhino had absolutely no problem whatsoever in every situations without depend on any of their teammates at certain lvl. 

Hence the idea of 4 Novas in a run can't be compare to 4 different frames in that same run. 

I don't see problem with Loki and Oberon btw. 

[ThePresident777]

Or, you know, nerfing the couple that are outliers so we avoid power creep.

 

Nerfing Nova and Rhino leaves less room for error than buffing Saryn, Loki, Ash, Excalibur, Ember, Oberon, Nekros... you get my point (hopefully).

 

And once those are nerfed, we can look at the high-end of enemies and nerf those accordingly so the power level is maintained, instead of strewn about helter-skelter.

 

Outlier therefore nerf sounds like a very blind approach to me.  Do you see outliers every where you go in life?  I don't.  I'm not a computer programmed by Intel to calculate outliers non-stop.  I'm a human playing a game for fun.

 

If you don't find Nova fun, I can understand that.  But, outlier?  I don't feel that.  People such as yourself just talk funny as far as I'm concerned.  You have all these concepts that just don't mean anything in the context of a game.  I can see their importance in manufacturing.  Don't see that same importance in games.  It sounds like abstraction for abstraction's sake.

 

I could understand a developer on the first day of a game's developement saying something like, for example:

1)  100 DPS will be the base DPS

2)  1 second will be the base TTK(Time to Kill) because research shows this leads to greater profit.  The game will be advertised as fast paced and players consider this to be a fast pace and willing to meet our profit goals.

3)  Therefore the base enemy HP will be 100 DPS * 1 second = 100

4) .............................................

 

Then just proceed to calculate the rest of the game mechnics relating TTK to Affinity and Mastery and DPS and Weapon Tiers, and Mods and Loot and Plat and so on and so forth.  But, I don't see anyone doing that at all.  Yet, people want to talk about logic and outliers and use all sorts of technical speech.  It all comes across as rather arbitrary and phoney and really no better than someone that just says, "I'm bored."  It all sounds rather philosophical to a bunch of non-philosophers at a party.  The philosopher is philosphically attempting to convince us that this tasty dip is not tasty and that we should all boycott it.  We offer him another choice of dip, but, that's not good enough.  We must all eat the same dip.

Edited January 11, 2014 by ThePresident777