Jump to content

Difficulty in Warframe needs to be done differently


Teridax68
 Share

Recommended Posts

0. Introduction

Implementing a real challenge in Warframe has been DE's white whale for years now: time and again, we've received bits of new content promising some sort of endgame mod that would put veterans to the test, like Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Arbitrations, and the Steel Path. All of these have failed to make the game challenging, but have also had a few other negative effects. I won't go into too much detail as to why Warframe can't challenge us, because that's tied to a whole bunch of systemic issues (for example, our abilities letting us cheese our way through most challenges), but I think it's worth pointing out a few other, less discussed problems with how Warframe seeks to challenge us:

1. Why Warframe does difficulty wrong

DE's attempts at giving us challenges and more difficult gameplay have a range of issues:

  • They split up the playerbase: The common thread to ESO, Arbitrations, Steel Path, and even Nightmare missions before them (plus Lich/Sister missions) is that they all take place in their own sub-missions, separate from main Star Chart missions. Instead of truly building upon existing content, they create their own space to funnel in bored veterans looking for a challenge, away from a core game that ends up being cast away and ignored once progressed through. During low player counts, this dilutes player concentrations by putting them all in separate missions, which is impossible to not do when signing up for a specific challenge mode.
  • They clutter the game: Warframe is known for being plagued with feature creep, and these modes are a major reason why. DE has released a string of challenge modes that they then abandoned in favor of their new intended endgame, and every time the process repeats, the game becomes saddled with more and more game modes isolated from one another. For newer players, this creates an intimidating amount of different things that present themselves without much explanation, and for veterans, it fails to expand the game durably and add vital replay value.
  • They fail to satisfy everyone: If recent additions like Arbitrations and the Steel Path are any indication, it's that there is no one-size-fits-all mode of difficulty for players in Warframe. Implement a mode with instant death, and players will simply pick frames that can't die. Implement a mode where enemies are bullet sponges, and players will still one-shot them because our weapons can be modded to deal ridiculous amounts of damage. Most importantly: these modes are still trivial for many players to go through. It is impossible to tune these modes to be difficult for those players, because those modes then become inaccessible to everyone else.

Effectively, implementing difficulty as some sort of new mode in Warframe, with its own isolated space, is doomed to fail, and bound to only weigh the game down in the long-term, rather than expand it in a sustainable fashion. Something needs to be done differently.

2. A different take on difficulty

This is where this post gets more into suggestion territory, but I feel that in order to address the above, difficulty needs to be a personal setting, rather than a global setting: the key problem with difficulty modes, or even just enemy levels, is that they impose the same constraints upon everyone and thus have to accommodate everyone, which makes them fail. The following outlines one means of condensing the above into a personal difficulty setting, which one may recognize if one is familiar with the game Hades:

Spoiler

A rough sketch of a personal difficulty setting:

  • Past a certain early point, the player is introduced to Teshin, who challenges the Tenno to push themselves to their limit.
  • This milestone unlocks a menu that sits to the side of the Star Chart when the player navigates through:
    • In this menu, the player is given a choice of modifiers to apply to their warframe. These modifiers are negative, but only affect the player selecting them, and provide some sort of bonus, e.g. a stacking increase in resources earned, Affinity, Credits, etc. These bonuses are team-wide, and apply to every other Tenno in the mission (so they're rewarded for taking in a Tenno fighting at a deliberate disadvantage).
    • The list of available modifiers starts small, initially offering the player to halve damage dealt, and double damage received. As the player progresses through the game, such as by reaching certain milestones or obtaining certain collectibles, they unlock further options.
    • Additionally, certain modifiers have ranks, with no upper cap: successfully completing a mission with a modifier at its maximum rank unlocks its next rank. You could, for example, halve your damage dealt multiple times, or double damage received multiple times.
    • The list of modifiers should be comprehensive enough to include as many of the modifiers found in Nightmare mode, Sorties, Arbitrations, and Steel Path as possible (also Dragon Keys), while including new modifiers.
    • The menu also indicates a level, a number reflecting the difficulty the player is setting for themselves: the player starts at level 0 (no modifiers), and applying modifiers increases this level.
  • With this, challenge modes such as Nightmare, Sorties, Sanctuary Onslaught, Arbitrations, and the Steel Path would be removed. Going further, enemy levels could be removed as well, making enemy health, armor, shield, and damage values static. How tough these enemies are would depend entirely on the player (this would also require some rebalancing, particularly around warframe abilities).
  • In addition to the above, Teshin could set daily, weekly, and monthly challenges to players:
    • These challenges would allow the player to enter a mission on its own node with a list of obligatory (and sometimes mission-specific) modifiers, in exchange for an exclusive reward (e.g. Steel Essence, or perhaps a currency that may only last for a limited time like Nightwave credits). Each challenge could be run an infinite amount of times, but would only give their exclusive reward once upon the first success.
    • These challenges would vary in difficulty and reward:
      • Daily challenges should be mildly challenging and offer comparatively small rewards (e.g. Sorties).
      • Weekly challenges should be decently challenging to veterans and offer greater rewards.
      • Monthly challenges should be essentially impossible for all but the most experienced players to complete, and the modifiers should be selected by the developers to present a particular and extreme type of challenge (the equivalent of some of the level 9999 alerts we once received). Not only should completing this challenge offer a suitably massive reward, one could go further and reward the first ten clans who had any number of their players (which could be just one) complete the challenge with a bonus, plus recognition in a hall of fame. The clan that receives the most accolades in a year in this way gets an extra-special place in that same hall of fame, and an exclusive gift.
  • This difficulty setting should also plug into the world and various missions:
    • Mission types intended to be especially challenging, or quests that aim to push a type of challenge onto the player, may impose a minimum set of modifiers upon players who join (and any player who already has that or more wouldn't have anything more added on). Examples could include Kuva Lich missions, special mission types like killing Profit-Taker, or Mastery Rank challenges.
    • Endless missions may impose additional modifiers per rotation as their difficulty ramp-up, especially if enemy levels were to be removed.
    • Rather than require Dragon Keys, Orokin vault doors in Derelict tilesets may instead open only when at least one Tenno in the team is playing at or above a certain minimum level.
    • Because difficulty would be equal across the Star Chart, reward tiers for any given mission may instead depend on the level one plays the mission: playing at a higher level may unlock higher tiers of rewards, offering larger amounts of a reward or drops otherwise inaccessible to lower tiers.

TL;DR: let players set the game's difficulty for themselves using a choose-your-own set of personal debuffs (e.g. less damage dealt, more damage received), in exchange for team-wide loot bonuses. Remove all of the challenge modes cluttering the game thus far, perhaps even enemy levels, and instead have one set of challenges, with the top tier incentivizing clans to race to complete the most difficult tier for eternal recognition and exclusive rewards.

3. The aftermath

Making difficulty a personal choice, rather than a one-size-fits-all game mode would carry certain benefits:

  • Players would be able to choose exactly the difficulty they'd want for themselves, and how to implement it (and so without having to wait a long time in endless missions either).
  • Players would be able to play in the same missions at varying levels of difficulty, without interfering with one another. The playerbase would no longer be split (or at least not as much).
  • The game would be a lot less cluttered with different challenge modes, and because difficulty would be a progression feature, new players especially wouldn't be exposed to it until the right time, both avoiding overwhelming them and allowing them to set the challenge they're comfortable with as they get to grips with the game.
  • Difficulty in the game could be future-proofed to an extent, as implementing more challenges could be a matter of implementing more difficulty options, and there would be no upper limit to how difficult one could make the game for oneself (which helps in a game that has experienced a lot of power creep since its release).

Worth mentioning, however, that it would not be a panacea either, not even for difficulty, for the following reasons:

  • Difficulty settings would still not prevent us from cheesing said difficulty with certain abilities. This is a problem with ability design in Warframe that needs to be addressed separately.
  • Some weapons, frames, and general builds would be able to breeze through levels high above where other options would struggle. This is a problem with balance in Warframe that needs to be addressed separately, though the above would also set a more consistent benchmark for power that would make it a lot easier to compare performance between competing options.
  • The playerbase would still be split due to modes that aren't necessarily tied to difficulty (namely, invasions and fissures), as well as a whole host of content islands (e.g. the Plains of Eidolon, Railjack, etc.). These would have to be integrated in their own way.

TL;DR: Warframe continually tries and fails to give us a proper challenge in large part because it does so by creating new, one-size-fits-all modes intended to be challenging, which end up mostly just cluttering the game and splitting the playerbase without offering anything sustainable. One potential solution could be to make difficulty in the game a personal choice instead, and give the player a variety of options for challenging themselves, with no upper limit on how difficult gameplay can become.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 3 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

TL;DR: let players set the game's difficulty for themselves using a choose-your-own set of personal debuffs (e.g. less damage dealt, more damage received), in exchange for team-wide loot bonuses. Remove all of the challenge modes cluttering the game thus far, perhaps even enemy levels, and instead have one set of challenges, with the top tier incentivizing clans to race to complete the most difficult tier for eternal recognition and exclusive rewards.

TL;DR: Play without mods, using dragon keys and speedruning lmao.

Wipe the enemy level system and add enemies that force you to think, want an example? Doom Eternal's (non-boss) demons.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

... this is probably THE longest wall of text ever just to say "Players can choose to gimp themselves for meaningless rewards"...

 

I was doing my best to pretend this thread didn't appear... Now, I have to say that I kindly prefer what we have right now than whatever was suggested here... In fact, if I wanted difficulty back, it would be to define the Trash to Heavy units ratio and the spawn rate ratio, like we had before DE yeeted "difficulty" just to cater casuallly casual very casual extremely casual players...

 

... Oh, I'm sorry... I meant "because DE felt like it."

Edited by Uhkretor
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-10 at 11:56 PM, VoidArkhangel said:

TL;DR: Play without mods, using dragon keys and speedruning lmao.

Wipe the enemy level system and add enemies that force you to think, want an example? Doom Eternal's (non-boss) demons.

I agree that part of making the game more engaging would involve adding more interesting enemies, but as it stands, there's no incentives to partake in the challenges you speak of, which is why most players don't.

On 2021-08-11 at 12:02 AM, Uhkretor said:

... this is probably THE longest wall of text ever just to say "Players can choose to gimp themselves for meaningless rewards"...

You are the one who chose to define rewards in general as "meaningless", which is itself eminently subjective given that the above proposes hooking up the rewards we currently strive for to this new system.

On 2021-08-11 at 12:02 AM, Uhkretor said:

I was doing my best to pretend this thread didn't appear... Now, I have to say that I kindly prefer what we have right now than whatever was suggested here... In fact, if I wanted difficulty back, it would be to define the Trash to Heavy units ratio and the spawn rate ratio, like we had before DE yeeted "difficulty" just to cater casuallly casual very casual extremely casual players...

That's nice, except what I propose would let you ignore difficulty entirely if that was your choice. By its very nature, the proposed difficulty setting would only make the game as difficult as you'd choose it to. Meanwhile, I fail to see the benefit of fiddling with unit distributions, and question how beneficial or even possible it is to jack up the spawn rates when we obliterate enemies essentially as soon as they enter our awareness, all while the game does its best to crank out as many as it can already.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 4 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I agree that part of making the game more engaging would involve adding more interesting enemies, but as it stands, there's no incentives to partake in the challenges you speak of, which is why most players don't.

I cant speak for everyone else but I would play a lot more if the enemies were much more like Doom's. Having what you say... well I already have the system you speak of and it does nothing, increase the rewards all you want it wont make me want to play more since I stopped caring about that a long time ago.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I cant speak for everyone else but I would play a lot more if the enemies were much more like Doom's.

I can agree to some extent, in that I'd like it better if the game gave us enemies with attacks we could properly dodge, rather than hitscan weaponry we just have to soak up. However, what you are discussing is enemy design, which is a separate topic from what I'm bringing up here, and simply reworking enemies would not solve the game's difficulty problem.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Having what you say... well I already have the system you speak of and it does nothing, increase the rewards all you want it wont make me want to play more since I stopped caring about that a long time ago.

If the game has no rewards to offer you that you don't have or care about, then the problem is simply that either the game has run out of rewards to offer you, or you've lost interest in the game's rewards. The former is a problem solved by adding more rewards, which as the OP states would integrate into the proposed system, and the latter problem is unsolvable. The system I speak of does not exist in Warframe, though it certainly exists in games like Hades, where it's a core game feature and a major progression system too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a brief analysis:

By and large, the game is a gear checking "puzzle" of sorts. Take, for example, Arbitrations: there's a challenge in the "perma-death" concept, and the solution is to bring a Warframe that doesn't die. You figure out that Warframe with stat checks and testing. Likewise, enemy levels call for weapons that have sufficient power. You bring the right supplies to the right mission to win, and figuring out what supplies to bring is the (apparently) intended challenge.

That system runs into two problems:

1. Gear attachment. Our things are high on the uniqueness factor, unlike quasi-randomly-named weapons with marginally different stats in typical RPGs. We like our things and we don't like not being able to use them. If we're funneled into using certain things, satisfaction gets dunked on. That's the entire reason behind the gun buffs. Yet figuring out what to use and what doesn't work is the challenge.

2. Warframe is still an action game, and a major initial draw lies in active gameplay. That is, players pulled in are going to be the type to desire "skill-based" challenge - or at least engagement that involves the mission itself in some substantial way. It's like climbing a mountain where, rather than the challenge being in the actual climb, the challenge is working a job to get the gear that does the climb for you. That's a challenge, but probably not the challenge a mountaineer is looking for.

The problem I see with this proposed method of difficulty is that it has the same issue as the current one (albeit in a lighter format). We have challenges and we overcome those challenges by selecting the "right" gear. The benefit of this proposal is that you don't have to do the challenge and can just use what you normally do. But the problem-solving process is still identical to what we've got now, which would probably lead to the same (attempted or successful cheese in challenge + gear combinations. For example: let's say one challenge is a "no shield" modifier. The solution ends up being "use Inaros". Tada, I now get bonus goodies for free. Or if I can't use Inaros, I'll use Grendel, or bring the modifier down as low as possible and abuse shield gating. The issue isn't that that's possible, but that that's the exact same unsatisfactory problem-solving implemented in the current difficulty.

Basically: we're still going to look through our gear and seek out the path of least resistance and lower the challenge far below what it should be. If we're going to have satisfactory challenge, given the challenge we have now isn't satisfactory, that psychology needs to be broken in some way, and the onus on the player needs to shift into missions and away from the arsenal screen.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I cant speak for everyone else but I would play a lot more if the enemies were much more like Doom's. Having what you say... well I already have the system you speak of and it does nothing, increase the rewards all you want it wont make me want to play more since I stopped caring about that a long time ago.

While i love DOOM and all its violence, i dont play warframe for a challenge explicitly. I wouldnt really want doom enemies in warframe cause from my PoV they are such different games i cant see it working. 

Warframe has always felt like the old dynasty warriors games from like 2 decades ago, a hack and slash. I don't want to have to think about what enemies im fighting as im fighting while being aware of which enemies are producing which sounds indicating i need to reevaluate my threat assessment.

I very much enjoy logging in, picking a survival which hosts a resource i could use more of, then going to town for an hour of absolute and mindless slaughter.

 

I HATE acolytes in the steel path cause they arent fun and absolutely #*!% up my rhythms.

I LOVE DOOM and Warframe but i would not like to see them mixed in that way.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The problem I see with this proposed method of difficulty is that it has the same issue as the current one (albeit in a lighter format). We have challenges and we overcome those challenges by selecting the "right" gear. The benefit of this proposal is that you don't have to do the challenge and can just use what you normally do. But the problem-solving process is still identical to what we've got now, which would probably lead to the same (attempted or successful cheese in challenge + gear combinations. For example: let's say one challenge is a "no shield" modifier. The solution ends up being "use Inaros". Tada, I now get bonus goodies for free. Or if I can't use Inaros, I'll use Grendel, or bring the modifier down as low as possible and abuse shield gating. The issue isn't that that's possible, but that that's the exact same unsatisfactory problem-solving implemented in the current difficulty.

Basically: we're still going to look through our gear and seek out the path of least resistance and lower the challenge far below what it should be. If we're going to have satisfactory challenge, given the challenge we have now isn't satisfactory, that psychology needs to be broken in some way, and the onus on the player needs to shift into missions and away from the arsenal screen.

This is covered in the OP, specifically here:

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Worth mentioning, however, that it would not be a panacea either, not even for difficulty, for the following reasons:

  • Difficulty settings would still not prevent us from cheesing said difficulty with certain abilities. This is a problem with ability design in Warframe that needs to be addressed separately.
  • Some weapons, frames, and general builds would be able to breeze through levels high above where other options would struggle. This is a problem with balance in Warframe that needs to be addressed separately, though the above would also set a more consistent benchmark for power that would make it a lot easier to compare performance between competing options.

So long as the game continues to have cheese and gross imbalance, we will continue to run into cheesy and imbalanced situations, and the only way to address that is to address the cheese and the imbalance. As for optimizing using our gear, that is bound to happen to some extent, and happens for any game that throws challenges at the player along with a degree of personal customization. This even exists in Hades, the game from which I took inspiration for the above: it is entirely possible to choose a high difficulty setting whose component modifiers are perfectly adapted to the build one chooses, allowing one to make a run less difficult than indicated through optimization. This isn't a bad thing, so long as the optimization merely plays some small or moderate part in leveraging the difficulty we set for ourselves, instead of allowing us to bypass it entirely. This is why whichever modifiers exist in this hypothetical system should avoid being excessively specific, to the tune of "you can bypass this modifier entirely if you have healing/Inaros/whichever other specific thing". This is, once again, a problem where often the real culprit is our warframes and our rampant abuse of abilities that remove interaction from the game, which is its own can of worms that needs addressing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 50 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I can agree to some extent, in that I'd like it better if the game gave us enemies with attacks we could properly dodge, rather than hitscan weaponry we just have to soak up. However, what you are discussing is enemy design, which is a separate topic from what I'm bringing up here, and simply reworking enemies would not solve the game's difficulty problem.

Warframe's difficulty comes from enemies and enviroment but mostly enemies so reworking this is what the game really needs.

hace 50 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

If the game has no rewards to offer you that you don't have or care about, then the problem is simply that either the game has run out of rewards to offer you, or you've lost interest in the game's rewards. The former is a problem solved by adding more rewards, which as the OP states would integrate into the proposed system, and the latter problem is unsolvable. The system I speak of does not exist in Warframe, though it certainly exists in games like Hades, where it's a core game feature and a major progression system too.

It isnt a problem because its no job, its a game. The real reward is (or should be) on the middle, is the way you walk through to get somewhere else.

What you are suggesting is make grendel missions common-er, no enemy AI improvement, no enemy quirk, no enviroment hazards, just keep the current enemies but give players the option to... have the equivalent of removing mods and equipping dragon keys just to get more rewards. This would do the same as SP, arbitrations, nightmares, grendel's missions, sorties... they would be fun? maybe? everyone will love these? hmm unless these missions give a huge amount of platinum I will say they will be forgotten just as the ones I just mentioned.

TL;DR:

They already tried this, didnt work. If you want difficulty on Warframe then its either puzzles or "interesting" enemies and since internet exists and coding procedural/random puzzles is just a waste of time then the enemy rework is the best awnser.

Edited by VoidArkhangel
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 21 minutos, Zhoyzu dijo:

While i love DOOM and all its violence, i dont play warframe for a challenge explicitly. I wouldnt really want doom enemies in warframe cause from my PoV they are such different games i cant see it working. 

Warframe has always felt like the old dynasty warriors games from like 2 decades ago, a hack and slash. I don't want to have to think about what enemies im fighting as im fighting while being aware of which enemies are producing which sounds indicating i need to reevaluate my threat assessment.

I very much enjoy logging in, picking a survival which hosts a resource i could use more of, then going to town for an hour of absolute and mindless slaughter.

 

I HATE acolytes in the steel path cause they arent fun and absolutely #*!% up my rhythms.

I LOVE DOOM and Warframe but i would not like to see them mixed in that way.

While I think Warframe is somewhat similar to DOOM, I dont think they need to be the same. What I say is that introducing the weak points, Glory Kills (wich we kinda have already) and heavy units here and there to wake the player from time to time would be better.

An example would be Malice, imagine if you could blow the mechanical bits he has, debuffing him everytime you destroy one until the last that will allow you to perform a parazon kill right away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Warframe's difficulty comes from enemies and enviroment but mostly enemies so reworking this is what the game really needs.

I disagree completely. Warframe's difficulty stems from a much larger range of systems, including enemies and the environment but also the enemy level system, our own power, the mission conditions, and any game mode modifiers applied to the mission. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that enemies aren't even that big a part of our difficulty, because we mostly trivialize them and eliminate many of the differences they offer from one another. Giving us a host of diverse and interesting enemies isn't going to do squat if we can still dispatch them effortlessly at even the highest degree of difficulty the game has to offer.

9 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

It isnt a problem because its no job, its a game. The real reward is (or should be) on the middle, is the way you walk through to get somewhere else.

What you are asking for is intrinsic reward, which is light years away from the subject of discussion here. For the record, I'm absolutely with you that Warframe would be a lot better off if it focused more on making us play for intrinsic, rather than extrinsic rewards, but that's an entirely separate topic.

9 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

What you are suggesting is make grendel missions common-er, no enemy AI improvement, no enemy quirk, no enviroment hazards, just keep the current enemies but give players the option to... have the equivalent of removing mods and equipping dragon keys just to get more rewards. This would do the same as SP, arbitrations, nightmares, grendel's missions, sorties... they would be fun? maybe? everyone will love these? hmm unless these missions give a huge amount of platinum I will say they will be forgotten just as the ones I just mentioned.

I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that I'm asking players to remove their mods, given that none of the examples I gave related to that. Given that I am also proposing to hook almost any reward the game could offer into this system, I fail to see how one could "forget" such a system unless one has already gotten everything one wanted, at which point the real issue is just that you have nothing left to do.

9 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Conclussion:

They already tried this, didnt work. If you want difficulty on Warframe then its either puzzles or "interesting" enemies and since internet exists and coding procedural/random puzzles is just a waste of time then the enemy rework is the best awnser.

Please point to when DE tried to implement the personal difficulty system I proposed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont quite follow this reasoning. "Playerbase is split into all these modes across the map" as a fail point and then wanting to split it further win solo missions for "challenge". I agree there should be challenge in game but as you yourself have said when things tell us we only get one life for example players will pick something that doesnt die. Exact same scenario will happen here. A no mods equipped challenge for example, just turn into operator and clean house. 

Its the fundementals of the game that are inherently needing changes to provide adequate down time of our power as to threaten us. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 2 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I disagree completely. Warframe's difficulty stems from a much larger range of systems, including enemies and the environment but also the enemy level system, our own power, the mission conditions, and any game mode modifiers applied to the mission. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that enemies aren't even that big a part of our difficulty, because we mostly trivialize them and eliminate many of the differences they offer from one another. Giving us a host of diverse and interesting enemies isn't going to do squat if we can still dispatch them effortlessly at even the highest degree of difficulty the game has to offer.

This is easy to prove, remove the enemies from the game. What will stop you?

hace 3 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that I'm asking players to remove their mods, given that none of the examples I gave related to that. Given that I am also proposing to hook almost any reward the game could offer into this system, I fail to see how one could "forget" such a system unless one has already gotten everything one wanted, at which point the real issue is just that you have nothing left to do.

Im saying that the debuffs you say would be like telling them now to remove their mods and/or use the dragon keys. Look at new players, the moment they know how to bullet jump they speedrun the missions not caring for the resources at all.

hace 5 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

Please point to when DE tried to implement the personal difficulty system I proposed.

Here:

hace 18 minutos, VoidArkhangel dijo:

This would do the same as SP, arbitrations, nightmares, grendel's missions, sorties... they would be fun? maybe? everyone will love these? hmm unless these missions give a huge amount of platinum I will say they will be forgotten just as the ones I just mentioned.

Specially nightmares since you can choose (not with the freedom you want but still) wich debuffs you are running the mission with.

You can say that none of them are similar to your suggestion and whatever I got derailed anyways, this isnt difficulty since you are just directly nerfing the player and not even challenging him since you said:

hace 2 horas, Teridax68 dijo:

Difficulty settings would still not prevent us from cheesing said difficulty with certain abilities. This is a problem with ability design in Warframe that needs to be addressed separately.

I understand that the player is too powerful to make something really difficult without puzzles but this... I mean you would offer anything from the game just for completing a nightmare-like mission. You would need to deactivate everything (abilites, focus, shields, mods, damage) to really challenge the player but that wouldn't be Warframe, would it?

Difficulty should be overwhelming the player with in-game mechanics and not preventing him of using them.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

I dont quite follow this reasoning. "Playerbase is split into all these modes across the map" as a fail point and then wanting to split it further win solo missions for "challenge".

This is a disingenuous reading of the proposal when it lists condensing most of our separate modes into our main Star Chart missions, while proposing only a handful of time-limited challenges with one-time rewards in self-contained nodes.

29 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

I agree there should be challenge in game but as you yourself have said when things tell us we only get one life for example players will pick something that doesnt die. Exact same scenario will happen here. A no mods equipped challenge for example, just turn into operator and clean house. 

This misunderstands the optimization problem behind building for Arbitration and the like, in that those kinds of modes only need to be optimized around one or two factors. The system I propose, however, would propose a much larger number of factors one could optimize around. I agree with you that this would not solve the problem of certain frames cheesing certain missions and conditions, but it would not devolve into as rigid a meta as a designated endgame mode based around the same one condition (or small handful of conditions, if you factor in extra damage and EHP) each time.

29 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Its the fundementals of the game that are inherently needing changes to provide adequate down time of our power as to threaten us. 

I can agree to some extent, failed challenge modes are by no means the only reason behind the game failing to give us a proper challenge, but they are a problem nonetheless, which the above post tries to answer as one of many possible improvements to the game (and it need not exclude those other improvements from happening). It is pointless to make the perfect the enemy of the good, and if DE had refrained from implementing any improvements to the game until they came up with some imaginary update that would fix absolutely everything about it forever, Warframe would have died long ago.

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

This is easy to prove, remove the enemies from the game. What will stop you?

By this same asinine reasoning, one could argue that aspects of the game as basic as the lighting and floor are essential to its difficulty. Don't believe me? Take all the light out of the game, or take out the floor so that everyone falls endlessly. Truly, these are the bedrock of difficulty in Warframe!

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Im saying that the debuffs you say would be like telling them now to remove their mods and/or use the dragon keys. Look at new players, the moment they know how to bullet jump they speedrun the missions not caring for the resources at all.

You are merely restating yourself here instead of justifying your argument, while going on some bizarre tangent about bullet jumping. Again, how do these debuffs equate to removing our mods, or relate to bullet jumping in any way? You seem to be confusing rewards and resources too.

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Here:

Literally none of those come even close to the difficulty system I am proposing, as the difficulty there is not configurable and is not up to the player.

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Specially nightmares since you can choose (not with the freedom you want but still) wich debuffs you are running the mission with.

You do not get to choose the debuffs, you merely choose whether or not to enter the mission whose debuffs are preset. You are taking the concept of personal choice and stretching it to the mere act of choosing to start a mission, which is arguing on semantics.

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

You can say that none of them are similar to your suggestion and whatever I got derailed anyways, this isnt difficulty since you are just directly nerfing the player and not even challenging him since you said:

This fundamentally misunderstands how difficulty works, and arbitrarily excludes valid forms of difficulty with no justification. Why is "directly nerfing the player" not a valid form of difficulty? The fact that you brought up the point where I specifically mention that us cheesing the game is a separate issue that needs to be addressed separately makes this all the more confusing: what even are you trying to argue?

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

I understand that the player is too powerful to make something really difficult without puzzles but this... I mean you would offer anything from the game just for completing a nightmare-like mission. You would need to deactivate everything (abilites, focus, shields, mods, damage) to really challenge the player but that wouldn't be Warframe, would it?

Difficulty should be overwhelming the player with in-game mechanics and not preventing him of using them.

Again, where is this notion of disabling the player coming from? Please point to where I mentioned wanting to disable the player's use of abilities, let alone neutering them in your strange idea of what challenge in Warframe should look like. Not only should the game avoid overloading the player with mechanics, as that just leads to confusion, you are ultimately also undermining your own argument here, as your own proposal to make the game more difficult (more complex enemies) would itself be useless in the face of our cheese, more so than a difficulty setting with no upper limit.

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Personally I find the incentive to make weird builds enough to get my challenge (that, and I'm also looking for it).

Definitely curious to see where this topic goes though; there's a certain Deja Vu when phrases like "Choose your own challenge" come up.

"Personally I" being the operative term here. You may set your own incentives and deliberately handicap yourself for no extrinsic reward, but that is not a universal trait, which is why DE has repeatedly attempted to implement challenge modes in Warframe. Worth noting is that the system proposed in the OP would only benefit you in this respect, as you would have even greater control over how much challenge you'd get to set for yourself.

Edited by Teridax68
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

"Personally I" being the operative term here. You may set your own incentives and deliberately handicap yourself for no extrinsic reward, but that is not a universal trait, which is why DE has repeatedly attempted to implement challenge modes in Warframe. Worth noting is that the system proposed in the OP would only benefit you in this respect, as you would have even greater control over how much challenge you'd get to set for yourself.

“Personally I” is the crux of a system where challenge is a choice. I’m already playing DOOMframe, so I’m just here to watch you butt heads with the same people I have; players who claim to want challenge, yet don’t choose it for themselves. Easy as embracing Exilus mods, but those mods are taboo, and equipping a string of them instead of a string of overpower is unheard of.

edit: 🤔 Though there may also be some clever ideas to come out of this topic. I wouldn't say "No" to additional customization

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am neutral about your proposal. However you miss one key point, which is a very large part of the warframe player base have challenge phobia. They do not want to "think" while playing the game. They'll scream and whine when some new shiny is locked behind "challenging" content. DE always listens to them, so any attempt at challenging content is a fruitless endeavor until DE changes their target audience.

If we want this sort of challenge to be succesful it should not have exclusives.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

“Personally I” is the crux of a system where challenge is a choice.

Yes, one that incentivizes you to actually make that choice. Would you not want more players to choose to challenge themselves?

15 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’m already playing DOOMframe, so I’m just here to watch you butt heads with the same people I have; players who claim to want challenge, yet don’t choose it for themselves. Easy as embracing Exilus mods, but those mods are taboo, and equipping a string of them instead of a string of overpower is unheard of.

This sounds less like you wanting to have a discussion, and more like you wanting to feel superior to other people, as in your eyes anyone who doesn't enjoy aimless self-sabotage is irrational. I suppose this is why you keep entering discussions with the same people with the same position, as discussion to you seems to be less less a mutual exchange of ideas, and more a way to evangelize your self-proclaimed brilliance, as apparently you're the only person on Earth who ever conceived of equipping crappy builds as a way of challenging oneself.

7 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I am neutral about your proposal. However you miss one key point, which is a very large part of the warframe player base have challenge phobia. They do not want to "think" while playing the game. They'll scream and whine when some new shiny is locked behind "challenging" content. DE always listens to them, so any attempt at challenging content is a fruitless endeavor until DE changes their target audience.

If we want this sort of challenge to be succesful it should not have exclusives.

I think you missed the part where I suggested tying meaningful rewards, such as future mission drop items and relics, to this system, and making some exclusive to upper echelons of difficulty (and possibly also having their drop chance scale with difficulty level as well). A vocal minority of players may dislike the very notion of challenge (and I don't entirely blame them, as DE's attempts to introduce challenge to the game have almost invariably been poorly done), but players in general are nonetheless incentivized to take on greater challenges if there are rewards attached.

Edited by Teridax68
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Yes, one that incentivizes you to actually make that choice. Would you not want more players to choose to challenge themselves?

This sounds less like you wanting to have a discussion, and more like you wanting to feel superior to other people, as in your eyes anyone who doesn't enjoy aimless self-sabotage is irrational. I suppose this is why you keep entering discussions with the same people with the same position, as discussion to you seems to be less less a mutual exchange of ideas, and more a way to evangelize your self-proclaimed brilliance, as apparently you're the only person on Earth who ever conceived of equipping crappy mods as a way of challenging oneself.

I think you missed the part where I suggested tying meaningful rewards, such as future mission drop items and relics, to this system, and making some exclusive to upper echelons of difficulty (and possibly also having their drop chance scale with difficulty level as well). A vocal minority of players may dislike the very notion of challenge (and I don't entirely blame them, as DE's attempts to introduce challenge to the game have almost invariably been poorly done), but players in general are nonetheless incentivized to take on greater challenges if there are rewards attached.

Just here to watch, and learn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Just here to watch, and learn

Alright, then tell me what you've learned. If you've learned, perhaps try changing your tune from one thread to the next as well. So far, you have only come to this thread to speak positively about yourself and negatively about those who don't play like you do. The only time where you discussed the thread's subject matter at all was in an edit to a previous comment, and even then had strictly nothing to say about the discussion at hand. Tell me, what are your thoughts on the state of difficulty in Warframe? What are your thoughts on the above proposed rework to some of its difficulty systems?

Edited by Teridax68
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 1 minuto, Teridax68 dijo:

By this same asinine reasoning, one could argue that aspects of the game as basic as the lighting and floor are essential to its difficulty. Don't believe me? Take all the light out of the game, or take out the floor so that everyone falls endlessly. Truly, these are the bedrock of difficulty in Warframe!

Missed the point by a mile.

hace 4 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

You are merely restating yourself here instead of justifying your argument, while going on some bizarre tangent about bullet jumping. Again, how do these debuffs equate to removing our mods, or relate to bullet jumping in any way? You seem to be confusing rewards and resources too.

You asked:

hace 47 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea that I'm asking players to remove their mods, given that none of the examples I gave related to that

And I awnsered, also the bullet jump was an example of the other question:

hace 48 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

I fail to see how one could "forget" such a system unless one has already gotten everything one wanted, at which point the real issue is just that you have nothing left to do.

So Im not the one confusing.

hace 9 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

Again, where is this notion of disabling the player coming from? Please point to where I mentioned wanting to disable the player's use of abilities, let alone neutering them in your strange idea of what challenge in Warframe should look like. Not only should the game avoid overloading the player with mechanics, as that just leads to confusion, you are ultimately also undermining your own argument here, as your own proposal to make the game more difficult (more complex enemies) would itself be useless in the face of our cheese, more so than a difficulty setting with no upper limit.

Where did I said that you mentioned the removing of abilities? I said You would need to.... for making it hard. and its very obvious really, enemies cant even handle an unmodded warframe.

Yes, a game should avoid it at all costs, spelling mistake. The game should challenge you with the knowledge of the in-game mechanics meaning that you should need to know every single detail about everything to win on the hardest level.

Now, why nerfing the player is bad? Imagine this:

Two men have to climb a mountain, they do, one of them moves to another mountain and this one has more holes, ice and such things while the other climbs the same mountain from before but only relying on his theeth. One had to learn a new path, how to break ice and got better at climbing holes w/e while the other had to see a dentist.

Also, I dont see how I undermined my argument but ok.

Now, tell me, why are PvP games more entretaining than PvE?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Missed the point by a mile.

I didn't, I merely pointed out your argument was awful. Enemies are, for sure, one component to difficulty in Warframe, but they aren't a major one, and the game not functioning when one removes them entirely doesn't contradict this.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

You asked:

And I awnsered, also the bullet jump was an example of the other question:

So Im not the one confusing.

You visibly are, since as pointed out already you are apparently not making the difference between rewards and resources, the latter of which are a subset of rewards (and, as stated multiple times already, I'm suggesting to integrate rewards, and not just resources, into this difficulty system). As also similarly pointed out, your "answer" is a mere restatement of a claim I asked you to justify. Clearly, you do not have any justification for the false claim that my proposed difficulty setting equates to turning everything into a Grendel mission.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Where did I said that you mentioned the removing of abilities? I said You would need to.... for making it hard. and its very obvious really, enemies cant even handle an unmodded warframe.

Ah, so you are the one advocating to neuter our warframes, and yet still you want to project this onto me and my proposal. Yeah, no thanks. I don't want to remove the player's customization, but you do you if that's what you think is the only way of fixing the game.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Yes, a game should avoid it at all costs, spelling mistake. The game should challenge you with the knowledge of the in-game mechanics meaning that you should need to know every single detail about everything to win on the hardest level.

Now, why nerfing the player is bad? Imagine this:

Two men have to climb a mountain, they do, one of them moves to another mountain and this one has more holes, ice and such things while the other climbs the same mountain from before but only relying on his theeth. One had to learn a new path, how to break ice and got better at climbing holes w/e while the other had to see a dentist.

Have you ever heard of the expression "fighting with one arm tied behind one's back"? If you can successfully pull it off, it's a mark of great achievement, as would be scaling a mountain using only one's teeth. Not only are you failing to realize that having enemy health and damage scale up is equivalent to reducing one's damage dealt and increasing one's damage taken on a one-to-one basis (yet still made the reach that applying that was tantamount to removing one's mods), you seem to think that none of this is difficulty, which begs the question as to what you think difficulty is, given that you haven't even specified how your proposed enemies would challenge the player on in-game knowledge or mechanics. Really, it sounds like you just want to talk about how you want to rework enemies, which merits its own thread.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Also, I dont see how I undermined my argument but ok.

If we can cheese the game's current difficulty, including enemies at high levels, we can just as easily cheese whichever overly complex enemies you propose to insert into the game to challenge us. This has also already happened with the additions of enemies like Bursas, Combas, Eidolons, and so on.

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Now, tell me, why are PvP games more entretaining than PvE?

... they're not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 37 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

Ah, so you are the one advocating to neuter our warframes, and yet still you want to project this onto me and my proposal. Yeah, no thanks. I don't want to remove the player's customization, but you do you if that's what you think is the only way of fixing the game.

:facepalm:

hace 37 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

Have you ever heard of the expression "fighting with one arm tied behind one's back"? If you can successfully pull it off, it's a mark of great achievement, as would be scaling a mountain using only one's teeth. Not only are you failing to realize that having enemy health and damage scale up is equivalent to reducing one's damage dealt and increasing one's damage taken on a one-to-one basis (yet still made the reach that applying that was tantamount to removing one's mods), you seem to think that none of this is difficulty, which begs the question as to what you think difficulty is, given that you haven't even specified how your proposed enemies would challenge the player on in-game knowledge or mechanics. Really, it sounds like you just want to talk about how you want to rework enemies, which merits its own thread.

I did, Im a great fan of Oro, you know? the character that was so powerful that fought with only one arm and even holding a pet and yet he still won? the one that was so desperate to find someone that could challenge him because everything was so "boring"? yeah I wonder why he wasnt the happiest being on the entire universe...

I want to get the sweet spot, the best thing for everyone as a lot of people it just happens that the suggestion I came to is better. Remember how players were when the Wolf came? how they hated bullet sponges? how they hated challenges like grendel's? Thats why I say this suggestion will lead nowhere.

hace 37 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

If we can cheese the game's current difficulty, including enemies at high levels, we can just as easily cheese whichever overly complex enemies you propose to insert into the game to challenge us. This has also already happened with the additions of enemies like Bursas, Combas, Eidolons, and so on.

Indeed but ask any player about what would they preffer playing with debuffs or hunting Eidolons? both with friends and Im sure most of the players that are somewhat experienced will preffer Eidolons.

hace 37 minutos, Teridax68 dijo:

... they're not?

They are because they are harder, why are they harder? Because you need to adapt, you cant control what will happen at all the most noob player can wipe your a$$ and the most planified heist of all game's industry can be the worst on execution.

PvP games are entretaining not for the rewards, in fact, I would say that the rewards are useless, just look at DOOM from 1993.... I spoke too much about DOOM dont ya think? XD 

Look at Left for Dead 2, no rewards whatsoever but I can hear you say "on expert the player gets nerfed" now now how many players play it on expert? a lot huh? how many play versus?.... Im not saying that Warframe needs PvP, that is another topic but see I played both (expert and versus) and I can easily tell you that versus is more challenging and entretaining than expert just because the enemies are unique and everything depends on your knowledge and reflexes no pre-defined debuffs, no enemy level and no rewards apart from the entretainment.

Now, dont make a whirlwind on a glass of water, its just an example and Im not saying that we need to remove abilities (before I said you would need to remove them because I was following your logic) nor to remove anything, I still belive that the enemy rework would be way better because... well, I preffer quality over quantity.

Edited by VoidArkhangel
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-11 at 12:36 AM, Teridax68 said:

You are the one who chose to define rewards in general as "meaningless", which is itself eminently subjective given that the above proposes hooking up the rewards I currently strive for to this new system.

Sorry, had to correct you there... It didn't sound right before...

 

I like to fight for my rewards without gimping myself artificially by applying active penalties... If I want to play with active penalties, I'll just go play Skyrim in Legendary with my feet for the same effect...

On 2021-08-11 at 12:36 AM, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, except what I propose would let you ignore difficulty entirely if that was your choice. By its very nature, the proposed difficulty setting would only make the game as difficult as you'd choose it to. Meanwhile, I fail to see the benefit of fiddling with unit distributions, and question how beneficial or even possible it is to jack up the spawn rates when we obliterate enemies essentially as soon as they enter our awareness, all while the game does its best to crank out as many as it can already.

Yeah, I don't debate build preferences, even if the question's hidden behind a trick wall like that one.

... Nor am I going to debate "difficulty" semantics, or preferences regarding it. You had your idea, but no one is forced to agree with your idea.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...