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Liches/sisters and their anger & spawning


HunterDigi
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The problem:

Liches/sisters do not get angry on nodes they do not control, this means you can easily get tricked into playing a lot of missions and significantly slow down your progress if you're not always checking the planet and nodes when somone else votes, or not leave squad after every mission.

With premade groups of friends, the system shouldn't require micromanaging, like if one player gets their lich spawned and then they vote on the next planet, everyone else in the squad would get progression halted.

Also, when you stab your lich/sister in a mission, it will also not get any anger from thralls and other liches/sisters that spawn later in the same mission, because suddenly it's no longer controlled by them.

 

Solutions:

A. Make them get angry no matter what they control, this is the most flexible solution as it allows players to group together via recruiting or friends, with any rank lich or sister.

B. Make them control 2 planets after rank 2, the last planet and the next planet. For example, stabbing a lich on Earth would make them control Earth and Mars, then stabbing them again would make them control Mars and Ceres, and so on. This makes them gain anger in the same mission after they've been stabbed and also expands matchmaking options without deviating too much from the expected level range... this also helps the unlucky people who get their lich/sister to rank 5 and have no matchmaking people to help them.

C. A+B, you can play with friends at any lich or sister rank they have and 3 matchmaking groups instead of 5 per lich type.

Edited by HunterDigi
Added "solution C".
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50 minutes ago, HunterDigi said:

you can easily get tricked

How? Ive never 'got tricked' into playing a match. As the rule of thumb is generally to leave the party each match.

 

Then again, some prefer to do this so the dont level up their lich (idk why, making litches run is way more productive murmur gathering).

 

Also, option B undermines the ides that the new system implimented of focusing the matchmaking for each 'level' of lich to the same planet.

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1 час назад, chaotea сказал:

idk why, making litches run is way more productive murmur gathering

I can drop a guess of why. I do realize that this is an edge case and not covering everyone, but I met stuff like this.

In one word - gear. They may not have the gear to fight a lich on theirs own, e.g. low mr or new-ish player rushed through the war within (god knows how they did that) and getting a lich either by accident or not knowing. I saw a couple of such players in public squads, sometimes they can barely scratch the bastard on level 3 or even 2. And the fear to face that thing again can be motivating to not level them up. Not making the new one "is not an option" cause everyone and their. dogs on reddit/forums/youtube/chat a telling them that lich weapons are the sh*t and they should get all of them right here, right now.

Yet again - edge case. Can't explain mr30s doing that either than them being $&*^s.

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15 hours ago, chaotea said:

How? Ive never 'got tricked' into playing a match. As the rule of thumb is generally to leave the party each match.

Because you know the rule, but many people don't, I've seen people vote next planet and grab other people along with them that didn't have their lich/sister spawn that last mission, meaning they're still on the current planet.

Also, neither of the solutions negatively impact anything, it just allows more people to play more optimally with friends or recruit chat.

 

8 hours ago, Cris0407 said:

Agree with B, now You are forced to play public.

Can't do it with friends :/

Some of us get rank up and bayooo

Solution A would be better for friends/recruiting, you can play with a rank 1 lich with someone that has rank 5 sister and neither of you will have progress slowed down from not getting lich/sister angered.

This also doesn't break/prevent murmur-only farm (who knows why they do it), they can just ignore the lich/sister spawn and move on, heck they can even farm more murmur on liches if there's enemies nearby for it to convert... and sisters will spawn their hound if it didn't spawn with them (because another hound was active).

Edited by HunterDigi
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8 hours ago, HunterDigi said:

Also, neither of the solutions negatively impact anything, it just allows more people to play more optimally with friends or recruit chat.

Not quite true:

A: The point of exausting nodes is to prevent players running the same mission over and over and over just because its slightly more efficient than others.

You still earn murmurs though, so anger isnt a huge problem. (liches still spawn when not fully angry, but with a lower chance).

B: Just gonna quote what i said before: "Also, option B undermines the idea that the new system implimented of focusing the matchmaking for each 'level' of lich to the same planet. "

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@chaotea

But you'll still exhaust nodes, I think you're misunderstanding solution A, I'm not suggesting making the entire starchart available for thralls, I'm suggesting that no matter what thrall mission you join, you get not just murmur but also lich/sister anger... simply put: if you get murmur, you get anger, none of the hidden "does this mission anger my lich?" BS.

About mission efficiency, only defense is anti-efficient and capture/rescue/disruption can have little spawns because you can rush them, but apart from that I'm not sure what you mean there and how that is affected by my solution A.

 

Solution B doesn't undermine anything. Right now there's 5 isolated matchmaking groups per lich type, with solution B that becomes 3.

This gets even better if they add some "Join any lich mission" button.

5th rank is rarely reached so if you reach it you'll likely be stranded for matchmaking and have to ask people to basically do you a favor, because even if they have a lich/sister they won't gain anger towards them, effectively slowing their progress down to help you.

 

Also, these solutions aren't mutually exclusive, they can be both implemented to improve matchmaking and also allow friends/recruit-chat to play together with whatever lich type and rank they want without hindering progress.

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1 hour ago, HunterDigi said:

But you'll still exhaust nodes, I think you're misunderstanding solution A

If i can earn anger on any node, you just run it again via invites. I get what your solution implies, but it creates issues still.

I think the idea here anyway is that your lichs anger is based on your own liberating of their control, not on how many missions youve run.

1 hour ago, HunterDigi said:

but apart from that I'm not sure what you mean there and how that is affected by my solution A.

Captures can be compleated in under 60 seconds.

1 hour ago, HunterDigi said:

Solution B doesn't undermine anything. Right now there's 5 isolated matchmaking groups per lich type, with solution B that becomes 3.

This gets even better if they add some "Join any lich mission" button.

You missunderstood.

The missions are now segrigated so when your on the second planet, eveyone is facing the same level 2 lichs. You solution reverts this to the system it was before where someone with a more powerful lich can join in on a lower level mission where players arnt prepared to fight it. That player can then refuse to fight their lich, thus stopping any other lichs from spawning.

1 hour ago, HunterDigi said:

5th rank is rarely reached so if you reach it you'll likely be stranded for matchmaking and have to ask people to basically do you a favor, because even if they have a lich/sister they won't gain anger towards them, effectively slowing their progress down to help you.

Fortunatly with the current system everyone on level 5 is searching on one planet. Your solution would split this into two planets and as mentioned prior force those more powerful liches on players who may be unprepared for the harder fight.

1 hour ago, HunterDigi said:

Also, these solutions aren't mutually exclusive, they can be both implemented to improve matchmaking and also allow friends/recruit-chat to play together with whatever lich type and rank they want without hindering progress.

I understand that, however if you present them as seperate solutions you need to be prepared for them to be viewed seperatly.

As it stands, neither of these is a true solution, considdering the design intent. The current solution of backing out of a squad is solid at the moment, and like relics, invasions, ect you take the risk if you stay in the party. The backing out method is a core concept.

 

At the end of the day i dont think this is a non-issue, and your right to bring it up as it promotes discussion on the issue. But there are no quick fixes really.

Swapping anger from nodes cleared to missions compleated could be the best choice, but maybe not the perfect solution.

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6 hours ago, chaotea said:

<snip>

Swapping anger from nodes cleared to missions compleated could be the best choice, but maybe not the perfect solution.

you have a misconception, nemesis anger isn't based on nodes cleared it's on thralls killed.

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12 hours ago, chaotea said:

Captures can be compleated in under 60 seconds.

That's meaningless for liches because you must kill thralls to get anger and rushing missions does nothing (and I've tested it).

So I don't understand what these issues are, you're limited by thralls/hounds anyway. So why not let people play cooperatively with friends?

This lich system has always been bad to play with friends, and I should know I played the very first lich version with a friend. You had to play less efficiently if you wanted to play with friends because planets often didn't match, now planets always match but only if you got the same rank lich, which of course can desync easily because of how wildly the RNG is on their spawn, I've had to play several missions with a full anger bar until it spawned... and other times it spawned the very next mission.

 

12 hours ago, chaotea said:

You missunderstood.

The missions are now segrigated so when your on the second planet, eveyone is facing the same level 2 lichs. You solution reverts this to the system it was before where someone with a more powerful lich can join in on a lower level mission where players arnt prepared to fight it. That player can then refuse to fight their lich, thus stopping any other lichs from spawning.

No it doesn't revert anything, planets still aren't gonna be totally random and liches aren't gonna be anywhere from rank 1 to 5, they're gonna be at most 1 rank above or below yours.

If you can't down a rank 5 lich while having a rank 4 lich, then you can't down yours either (ignoring the edge case where players who run the same element on all their weapons and the spawning lich happens to be immune to that one xD), if both/all players are unequipped for their liches then tough luck, my solution B doesn't realistically affect this.

With solution A they could recruit chat to ask for someone that can help with rank X lich, which in the current system only players with a rank 5 lich would even consider themselves to play, unless they want to do that person a favor as I said before. With my solution A anyone that has good firepower/warframe for rank 5 can help them with any type of lich at any rank, because they'd still get progress on theirs.

 

12 hours ago, chaotea said:

and like relics, invasions, ect you take the risk if you stay in the party. The backing out method is a core concept.

Well, unlike relics or invasions you have to manually check the in-vote node now for lich/sister content. Meaning you have to go to the navigation panel and find the node on it to see if it's got the blue/red aura.

Before sisters you could tell in the node name if your lich controlled it because it said "<YourLichName> Controlled Node" or similar, as opposed to "Kuva Lich Mission" or simiar, but now it's always your lich name there, which is very misleading for people that used the previous way to tell if they'd get anger or not.

  

12 hours ago, chaotea said:

Swapping anger from nodes cleared to missions compleated could be the best choice, but maybe not the perfect solution.

Where did that come from, are you suggesting that? Because that would indeed cause problems with fast missions like captures, that's not what I'm suggesting at all...

Let me re-iterate on solution A: all the mechanics that give you murmur (thralls/hounds being stabbed, liches being stabbed until they leave) should also give anger without the "your lich/sister must control this node" condition, it's simple and not abusable because it's identical to murmur gain. If you can find a way to abuse this please do tell.

Edited by HunterDigi
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On 2021-08-13 at 8:21 PM, Drasiel said:

you have a misconception, nemesis anger isn't based on nodes cleared it's on thralls killed.

Yea, i got that mixed up. Guess cause ive always killed the max thralls anyway i just thought it was mission based. Though as thralls stop spawning half way in to longer missions its mostly the same anyway.

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8 hours ago, chaotea said:

Yea, i got that mixed up. Guess cause ive always killed the max thralls anyway i just thought it was mission based. Though as thralls stop spawning half way in to longer missions its mostly the same anyway.

It's not that they stop spawning really, it's that thralls have a spawn cap (so do hounds but they are worth more progress and cap at 3 solo). Liches caps are 5 solo, 10 with >=2 people with a lich spawn able spawn an additional 5 solo or 10 with >=2 people. Although if the lich spawns before you hit the thrall cap it will use up thrall spawns until it hits the cap counting against its total additional spawns. ie 2 thrall spawned then lich spawned your maximum amount of thralls will only be 8 instead of 10 solo. The problem you run into with thralls rather than hounds is that because you need so many more thralls to spawn than hounds the faster missions never get the full thrall spawn because other players don't seem to understand that waiting like 2 minutes at most would make thralls incredibly more efficient. The secondary issue is that the lich can only convert existing enemies into thralls while the hounds are actually created/summoned by sisters so when you have absolutely genocidal kill crazy other players with you, you never get the thrall benefit of a lich spawning.

Those are issues kinda aside from the topic of this post though.

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