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So, is it possible to make liches "work" again narratively?


nebfab

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I mean back when an unsuccessful stab killed you and expanded their territory it was a story of them getting more powerful, until you finally figure the correct stab out.

But now with both of those things removed (and it did smoothen the gameplay) liches kinda stopped feeling like this growing threat and with Sisters in particular Parvos "get this failure out of my sight" Granum is promoting them for... Being almost killed by us and fleeing?

 

So, I just wonder if the convenience of not wasting a revive and matchmaking that actually matches you with people can be somehow reconciled with the lich supposedly getting stronger and more influential as our attack progresses...

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With the old system, and the old rate of murmur gain I used to use 5 different frames when farming them.

Mesa, for hunting murmurs on most missions.

Limbo, Excavations only (seriously, the only mission type I play as Limbo)

Khora, for Mobile Defence and Defence.

Ivara, for Spy.

Nekros, for Survival.

Now, with the new system I use one frame. Inaros, because all I have to do is 3 missions per planet, Extermination, Capture and Sabotage.

I don't need to swap frames now, I just take one with survivability, I don't need to swap weapons, or tactics or anything, I just launch into the mission and shoot everything with my shiny new overpowered gun. Lich and Sister hunting has been dumbed down so much that it's become a chore that can be run through from start to finish in what? A couple of hours if your requiem mods are in the wrong order? I can knock a sister out of the game in less than an hour with a couple of correct stabs and an oul.

Compared to the old system it just feels so unrewarding.

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There certainly is a room for improvement, but I don't think killing the player because they didn't guess a mod order is a way to go.

More unique missions would be nice, not just starchart stuff with thralls in it, or at least new dialogue about the lich occupying a node.

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8 minutes ago, Aldain said:

It was a stupid idea then, is a stupid idea now, and will forever be a stupid idea in the future.

It is, don't get me wrong. But it did serve a purpose, and was replaced with nothing, no explanation at all of what about unsuccessful stab "promotes" the lich. (And that "promotion" now feeling more like he actually flees from us, while all the dialog implying the opposite.)

 

Yes, I can close my eyes and mutter "it's just a game" but, I like Warframe lore.

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6 minutes ago, nebfab said:

But it did serve a purpose

No it didn't.

Even if you beat the Lich without getting hit you'd still die testing a Requiem.

Forcing a death even if you won untouched is up there with those fights in JRPGs where you technically CAN win but the game says "Nah you lost anyway" in the degree of ludonarrative dissonance.

As for the "Getting promoted after they lost to you" thing, they got promoted because they SURVIVED against a Tenno, something that countless heaps of gore that used to be enemies will attest is not a common occurrence.

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4 hours ago, T-Shark69 said:

They could at least reintroduce the animations back without actually killing the frame. Like the Sisters do.

Yeah i wish they kept the animation and i remember they showed off a bunch of other fail animations for liches and they look really good really like the one that was a war within reference where they have that werid kuva drill thing and attempt to stab your face with it . I can't remember  the devstream they showed them off though 

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6 hours ago, nebfab said:

I mean back when an unsuccessful stab killed you and expanded their territory it was a story of them getting more powerful, until you finally figure the correct stab out.

But now with both of those things removed (and it did smoothen the gameplay) liches kinda stopped feeling like this growing threat and with Sisters in particular Parvos "get this failure out of my sight" Granum is promoting them for... Being almost killed by us and fleeing?

 

So, I just wonder if the convenience of not wasting a revive and matchmaking that actually matches you with people can be somehow reconciled with the lich supposedly getting stronger and more influential as our attack progresses...

I think they need 10 ranks with increased risk/reward…

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7 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

The stab failure animation definitely needs to return, without killing the player.

This I could be down for.

But if the concept of a failed-test-death ever shows up in any capacity again I will not touch any content it winds up being in.

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I'd like for the escape to be more like a traditional, multiphase boss. Instead of the disappearing act, I'd love for the unsuccessful fight to end with a cut scene of a threat followed by a release of a group of thralls that vary in quantities based on the Live level. 

Level One: 3 thralls attack.

Level Two: 4 thralls attack.

Level Three: 5 thralls attack. 

Level Four: 7 thralls attack. +10 levels

Level Five: 10 thralls attack. +10 levels, + 15% speed. Immune to slow.

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narrative with the liches is definitely weird, but my interpretation is that facing off against the Tenno is a test, to see just how well a promising recruit functions when faced with the insurmountable odds of fighting a Tenno. in the case of Sisters, Parvos is testing to see if their desire is strong enough to make them take action against a considerably more powerful opponent. even though they lose, they still prove themselves, and are promoted into the ranks of Parvos' Sisterhood. with Liches, it's much the same, but Kuva is involved; while the Worm Queen has her army harvest Kuva at every possible opportunity, every drop of the stuff is precious and so they cannot afford to waste a literal elixir of immortality on clones that are weak: only the strongest Grineer warriors, mentally and physically, are entitled to the gift of Kuva, and the Title of Kuva Lich: as a Kuva Lich, they are basically an agent of the Worm Queen herself.

the main problem is that Kuva Liches don't do takedowns anymore, when really they should, minus the killing component. as far as their peers are concerned, bodying a Tenno single-handedly surely deserves a promotion and an increase in power: remember, we are basically viewed by others as Demigods and powerful void-demons, anything that can take us down, helped by  immortality or no, would be seen like Chuck Norris. word of their victories over the "unkillable" Tenno would spread, and their following across the system would increase, no doubt with every Grineer/Corpus under their command considering them a living legend...

..and then we get our Yu-Gi-Oh! cards right and end their little reign, either by killing them permanently, or turning them into our slaves. Liches and Sisters basically get 15 mins of fame as Tenno-slayers and then get beaten almost as easily as anyone else. but of course when one dies, another will appear eventually and the cycle goes on.

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They used to take over more planets, allied or not if you don't kill them quickly, which I think fits the lore more than the current practice.

But I don't really care because the moment DE make them dispensable enemies they are practically just grunts with different appearances

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