Let's Talk About The Soma, Supra, And Gorgon (Updated To Megathread)

[KittyDarkling]

    This thread was started quite some time ago in game when the Soma first overshadowed it's higher Mastery rank counterpart the Supra. To this day the Supra remains one of the most expensive weapons to craft. Now to be clear, this is not a thread about the how overpowered the Soma's damage may be. It also is not a thread about any kind of nerfs for the Soma. I've greatly updated this thread so that It will track what the community thinks on the subject of Light Machine guns and as to if they agree these weapons need a buff, if so how to buff them, and what they enjoy about these guns in the first place. As information comes in I will be making an active effort to update the OT to reflect current developments in discussion.

    This is a quick current run down of these weapon's current state:

Gorgon:

Pros
Some what high dps for MR3
Large clip

Cons
Requires MR3
Requires Log in reward for blueprint
Has a very long reload
tInaccurate
High 'wind up' time
No polarities



Supra:

Pros
High dps
Large clip

Cons
Requires MR7
Requires clan research
Requires large amounts of resources, credits, and time
Has a very long reload
Inaccurate
High recoil
Poor bullet travel time
No polarities
Medium 'wind up' time


Gorgon Wraith:

Pros
Much better reload time then the Gorgon
Extremely high Status proc chance
Cons
Currently imposable to acquire
Low DPS for an "elite" weapon (Wraith, Vandal, Prime)
Longish reload time
Mid 'wind up' time
No Polarities



Supra:

Pros
High dps
Large clip

Cons
Requires MR7
Requires clan research
Requires large amounts of resources, credits, and time
Has a very long reload
Inaccurate
High recoil
Poor bullet travel time
Medium 'wind up' time



Soma:

Pros
One of the Highest dps weapons in the game at MR6
Largest clip in the game of any rifle
Can be bought in the Market
Canb be crafted for a relatively small amount of materials.
Low/no recoil
Good reload speed
Starts with two attack polarities
Cons
Requires MR6
Requires some rare/uncommon materials
Has a somewhat long reload time
Low 'wind up' time
"Somewhat" restrictive build

    Here I will talk a little about the Supra and the Gorgon/Gorgon Wraith a little bit and add points, inputs, and other feedback in general that the community has posted here. Seeing as this thread is not about the Soma, it will not be addressed directly here.



The Supra:

    Since the creation of this thread most of the members of the community who've commented have either agreed that the Supra needs a buff, or merely not mentioned their feelings specifically on the matter. The Supra meets two criteria that players use to judge what a weapons needs to earn more power then it's peers.

  "Hard to get" Many players feel if a weapon requires a large amount of dedication, skill, or resources to acquire a weapon; They should be rewarded with better performance then a weapon they put relatively little effort into. The Supra is to this day still one of the most expensive weapons, with one of the highest build times in the game. This may vary depending on what's being invaded/infested at the time, however this could be argued for most clan tech. At the end of the day The Soma cost significantly less time, effort, and farming for much more reward.

  "High Mastery Rank" Many turn to the Mastery rank system to determine what should be more powerful/useful then what. After all, increasing Mastery rank requires maxing gear to get to, and MR 7 is no field trip to get to! This is a huge requirement for what most feel equates to or as some feel, falls short of a MR3 equivalent. Through use of this logic, with the Soma's MR 6 rating, the Supra's MR7 rating should guarantee better performance.

    - Members of the community seam to tend to desire the ability to fire for extended periods of time in a very "spray and pray" fashion. However due the the weapon's current damage/fire-rate, concentrated fire at mid range depending on mod setup can lead to missing anywhere between 20-75% of your shots. This tends to trash the dps at late game, and due to the other limitations of the weapon, it doesn't actually have anything else going for it. For this reason the most common request seams to be ammo orientated. Many seam to desire a significantly larger clip (typically in the 200+ range) and an equally higher max ammo pool plus higher pick up rate. TL/DR: A common buff request is centered around ammo

    - Another common request seams to be centered around reload time. Whether DE will implement this in the form of a "Vandal" or as a buff is uncertain.

    - An Idea I personally had is if the Supra could have "Fall-on" damage. as in it's damage would increase as the projectile travels. This would allow it to maintain it's damage over range, but not allow it to become overpowered at point blank range.



The Gorgon/Gorgon Wraith:

    The Gorgon and Gorgon Wraith are a rather controversial subject. It's a topic that's been extremely hot in the forums recently whether people know it or not.
  - What determines how powerful a weapon should be? it's Mastery rank or how hard it is to get?
  - Are Wraith, Vandal, and Prime weapons to be held to the same measure?
  - Should Wraith, Vandal, and Prime weapons always be coincided "End Game" incarnations of weapons?
Really the answers to all of these questions hold the fate of this weapon in their hands.

    That being said the community is some what divided on whether the Gorgon should be buffed up or not. So here's some food for thought.

  - The Grineer heavy gunner is equally if not much more threatening then the Corpus heavy gunner (Most will agree the Grineer ground slam trumps the Corpus osprey spawn any day).
  - Though Mastery Rank might matter greatly there's nothing to stop DE from buffing the Gorgon, then subsequently increasing it's Mastery rank to compensate.
  - The Gorgon currently can only be acquired through the mercy of the fickle nature of RNG (Random Number God)


As for buffing the Gorgon, many members of the community that want the Gorgon to be buffed, feel it either needs an ammo buff similar to the Supra, and/or a simple damage buff to bring it's dps up a bit.





My Personal Answer to the Big Three points.

  - Mastery Rank is a way to give piece of gear value without much implementation. A successful case of this is the Dragon Nikana. The Dragon Nikana is powerful because it's MR9 and it's MR9 because it's powerful. There is nothing wrong with this method of balancing a weapon so long as it does not conflict with other means of balance.
    That however is where I feel it takes issue with the Gorgon. By leaving the Gorgon at a low mastery rank, but making it hard to get; DE has unintentionally created a conflict of understanding and acceptance of the current tiering system. Would the Gorgon of been removed entirely from the game this wold be an entirely different matter. However the Gorgon is currently impossible for some and over abundant for others. Ask most on the Forums however and they'll tell you they'd rather not rely on RNG.
    This in my opinion is due to the Mastery system as a whole being slated for an overhaul. DE has done this in the past as well, they'll lower repairing a system's priority into the ground since it's only going to be replaced soon after. Original projections stated that DE wanted to get all three End Game system out this year. Now a year long projection is rarely accurate, and that's far from the point of this post. I'm sure DE has plans for taking another look at the current Mastery ranked weapons when they touch on the Focus system. For now? It may fall into disrepair while they priorities their manpower where it's needed.

TL/DR: Mastery rank is a great system so long as it doesn't conflict with other balancing forms such as rarity, or difficulty to acquire.

    Personally I feel Primes, Wraiths, and Vandals, should all be "End Game" variants of their originals. some may argue that that would be boring, or unfair due to the event lock on Wraiths and Vandal weapons. However I feel that so long as DE make these weapons challenging enough to obtain, that there's nothing wrong with opening the options to the community to bring their favorite weapon into end game. After all, they've done well enough with the Primes as is.




    Thanks for reading or re-reading this newly refurbished wall of text :D Please comment so I can keep this info FRESH! Also! Down here is the original and quite over-edited thread that use to be here, in case anyone's curious. I felt it needed to be packed away to keep the thread clean and informative.

    To clarify, These are two light machine guns that are currently much harder to acquire then the Soma. These two light machine guns have lower dps, a smaller clip, longer reload, and are even less efficient on ammo. Some people argue that it's invalid to argue the high tier Soma vs any other weapon. However with the Supra technically sitting a mastery level higher then the Soma, I find it ridiculous that people consider the Supra to be about even with the Gorgon!

The Gorgon lacks dps and a fast 'wind up' time. Though over the Supra it doesn't require a stabilizer mod. Perhaps it's just me but I find the Gorgon much easier to use then the Supra. I don't much notice the recoil if there is one, and the hitscan makes it quite easy to work around it's poor accuracy.

Meanwhile the Supra, a "better" weapon, a higher tier weapon, a weapon you need to be a part of a clan just to acquire, to do the research for, then to buy the blueprint then build thing.. It's ridiculous how much harder it is to acquire then the Gorgon or the Soma. The amount of recoil alone is silly. It's suppose to be shooting light or at very least plasma of some sort, why is it kicking more then it's lead spitting equivalent? That's not even taking into consideration the flight speed of the bullets.

I feel the Supra needs a big buff and the Gorgon needs some minor changes. I want both of them to have at least a clip of 100 if not more. The supra shouldn't have any recoil. The inaccuracy + slow bullet time is enough. I would say they should both have higher ammo capacity if I didn't already guess that's never gonna happen (rifle ammo seams locked at 540 and I don't want "special LMG ammo" :/ ). They should feel more like heavy machine guns. I'm not going to touch the subject of if they should get damage buffs, to much controversy.

Edit: From recent talks it appears that DE might be considering a rebalance of ammo. So perhaps The Supra, Soma, Gorgon, and Gorgon Wraith can all get max ammo/ammo pick up buffs. These would be more of a quality of life buff then a balance check however.

Edit: The Supra's current issue from what I understand is it's inability to be buffed due to it's inaccuracy. To sufficiently buff it's damage to compensate for it's inaccuracy, you'd have a massive automated shotgun with unspeakable dps. To this I ask, can bullets have "Fall-IN"? As in the longer the bullet goes without hitting anything the more damage it does (to a cap)? This would make the weapon quite unique and it'd make it amazing at simply unleashing a massive wall of plasma that would rain down on our foes :D

Edit: For the Gorgon and the Gorgon Wraith, I think they could both use a damage buff. maybe bring them both up to 30? The Wraith's advantages seam to be more quality of life/status more so then raw damage anyway, so I don't think buffing their damage in about the same way would hurt the wraithness of the wraith.

On a side note I think it would be cool if Supra and Gorgon had innate puncture, maybe just enough to puncture a door straight on? hardly as necessary as what I said above but it would be neat...

Now then, thank you for hearing out (reading) my rage induced rant about these weapons. I'd love to hear some constructive criticism, if you agree, and what not. also DE if you read this speak up! we'd hate to think you ignore our posts in here! Please?

Again thanks for reading :D

EDIT: To set a rummer aside, I'm fairly sure the Gorgon wasn't retired from the game so much as the marketplace. From what I understand it's gone the way of the glave. You can only get the blueprint via login reward (I myself have gotten it as a log in reward since it's "retirement".

EDIT: for more on talking about ammo, please post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/128238-lets-talk-about-ammo/

Edited June 4, 2014 by KittyDarkling

[habitq]

Aye.

[Vashna]

The supra certainly needs something.

[DarknightK]

I think we need a Heavy Weapons category, which the Gorgon and Supra should fit in (along with Launcher ammo for launchers. :l)

LMG ammo could be a thing, maybe it'll have a rarity slightly less than rifle ammo (and ONLY SLIGHTLY less)

 

 

But I agree with all the aforementioned changes, these weapons don't stand a ghost of a chance against Soma, even when unranked.

IMO, it should've been the Supra that was taken out of the game, not the Gorgon.

 

My suggestions is to let Gorgon have that innate puncture as you mentioned, but let the Supra have a faster projectile time and do Laser damage (which should devastate shields but do lesser damage to Health), seeing as how it spits out lasers. :S

[Egg_Chen]

Agreed, for both to have smaller clips and longer reloads than the Soma is just wrong, even with tiered weapons.

I personally think Soma clipsize is all kinds of wrong, but I know what an outcry a nerf would cause.

 

Supra and Gorgon should both have at least 180 clipsize, then the reload would be OK, and they would be the two LMGs in the arsenal.

I'd take a de-nerf to the Gorgon, and a few tweaks to the Supra, maybe laser damage as DarkknightK suggests.

I actually think it could have an accuracy increase instead, it is a bit too spray and pray for a laser gun.

 

A boost to the clip size would also make Mag Warp have some use, Mag Warp used to benefit the Gorgon the most, not now.

With Mag Warp and Wildfire you could be getting up to 270 ammo (half your stock) with the loss of two mod slots.

 

The guns almost become a suppression tool then, perhaps some increase in base stun for both?

Large area denial, basically stunning heavies and killing trash.

[KittyDarkling]

Agreed, for both to have smaller clips and longer reloads than the Soma is just wrong, even with tiered weapons.

I personally think Soma clipsize is all kinds of wrong, but I know what an outcry a nerf would cause.

 

Supra and Gorgon should both have at least 180 clipsize, then the reload would be OK, and they would be the two LMGs in the arsenal.

I'd take a de-nerf to the Gorgon, and a few tweaks to the Supra, maybe laser damage as DarkknightK suggests.

I actually think it could have an accuracy increase instead, it is a bit too spray and pray for a laser gun.

 

A boost to the clip size would also make Mag Warp have some use, Mag Warp used to benefit the Gorgon the most, not now.

With Mag Warp and Wildfire you could be getting up to 270 ammo (half your stock) with the loss of two mod slots.

 

The guns almost become a suppression tool then, perhaps some increase in base stun for both?

Large area denial, basically stunning heavies and killing trash.

 

    I was honestly considering writing up a post for mag warp/wildfire. for the mod capacity/slots they take up even individually you don't really get much for what you give :/

 

    Laser damage would only make sense, as would accuracy (for the Supra). LMGs are actually quite accurate, humans merely cant compensate fully for the recoil. but if it's firein lasers, and you're in a super body enhancing space ninja suit. There's no reason it should be as inaccurate as it is. :/

One could go with the argument that "LMGs are for area denial, thus why the Supra shouldn't be accurate" though if that's the case, make it fire multiple stable accurate shots (it has three barrels) . with the poor flight speed alone even an accurate gun can create area denial.

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

 

it should've been the Supra that was taken out of the game, not the Gorgon.

 

[Wolfstorm18]

Supra and Gorgon both needs a buff, to be keep in pace with current tech advancements in game. 

[Thaiden]

I can concur with the Gorgon for sure, first hand experience - just not a great weapon really.

[Paradoxbomb]

I got it! Just figured out what the Supra should be like:

 

http://youtu.be/vFcxhP1pErg?t=7m20s

 

Now that would be worth the research if you ask me.

[Rajko]

I totally agree, the soma and the LMG types should not be so similar, supra and gorgon are more inaccurate than makes sense, clips are smaller than they should really be.

[Wolfstorm18]

The Gorgon spend ammo too quick. I will be satisfied if DE increase its ammo pool by 50%.

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

Clan Tech should never be worse than marketplace gear, PERIOD. This is what supra should look like btw:

[Andaeros]

Clan Tech should never be worse than marketplace gear, PERIOD. This is what supra should look like btw:

It would be nice if the Supra had an effect like that, or guide-lasers to help aim and look cool. Although it's clearly modeled after an LMG, not a minigun. I agree that it should be superior than the marketplace weapons and right now it's more of a side-grade as some people call it.

 

To OP's mention of the Gorgon, I don't know if that's relevant to even bring the weapon up since it's not available in the game anymore. It's "retired" but that means it can't be obtained for an indefinite amount of time, and so to spend time working on something that nobody can get seems like a waste. I have one and it's more of a fun than useful thing to use, but I don't anticipate any improvements for it until it comes back, if it comes back.

[Wolfstorm18]

Clan Tech should never be worse than marketplace gear, PERIOD. This is what supra should look like btw:

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBj1zpuCX4F4-KKTyvJi7dA

 

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnC49J9P-2VJ6Ult7_wQoFg

[KittyDarkling]

It would be nice if the Supra had an effect like that, or guide-lasers to help aim and look cool. Although it's clearly modeled after an LMG, not a minigun. I agree that it should be superior than the marketplace weapons and right now it's more of a side-grade as some people call it.

 

To OP's mention of the Gorgon, I don't know if that's relevant to even bring the weapon up since it's not available in the game anymore. It's "retired" but that means it can't be obtained for an indefinite amount of time, and so to spend time working on something that nobody can get seems like a waste. I have one and it's more of a fun than useful thing to use, but I don't anticipate any improvements for it until it comes back, if it comes back.

 

    Im fairly sure the Gorgon wasn't retired from the game so much as the marketplace. From what I understand it's gone the way of the glave. You can only get the blueprint via login reward (I myself have gotten it as a log in reward since it's "retirement".)

[Naqel]

LMG ammo could be a thing

 

No, no, no. No. No. NO!

 

We should be urging DE to REDUCE the number of ammo boxes and ammo types, not giving them ideas for more.

The ammo rainbow on the ground should be the next rainbow to fix after the elemental one.

 

In its current form, different ammo types serve no purpose, add no gameplay, create unnecesarry screen clutter, and are entirely redundant.

[YouHaveShamedYoFamory]

Keep in mind that badasses use lasers

[DarknightK]

No, no, no. No. No. NO!

 

We should be urging DE to REDUCE the number of ammo boxes and ammo types, not giving them ideas for more.

The ammo rainbow on the ground should be the next rainbow to fix after the elemental one.

 

In its current form, different ammo types serve no purpose, add no gameplay, create unnecesarry screen clutter, and are entirely redundant.

 Sweet Jesus why did I post that?

 

Hell yes, more ammo types are bad. I should whip-sword myself for even suggesting that.

 

I am however, in favor of supporting Launcher ammo due to DE's inability to decide which weapons in that category will use which ammo and ammo mods. Hopefully they'll add more Girth in weapon diversity for it to be a hopeful thing.

 

But I still stand behind the suggestion for a Machine Gun category (Grataka could be a SMG/LMG, Gorgon and Supra could be either MMG or HMGs, until we get a true HMG (like a Vulcan minigun of some sort)).

[modded]

I think we need a Heavy Weapons category, which the Gorgon and Supra should fit in (along with Launcher ammo for launchers. :l)

LMG ammo could be a thing, maybe it'll have a rarity slightly less than rifle ammo (and ONLY SLIGHTLY less)

 

 

But I agree with all the aforementioned changes, these weapons don't stand a ghost of a chance against Soma, even when unranked.

IMO, it should've been the Supra that was taken out of the game, not the Gorgon.

 

My suggestions is to let Gorgon have that innate puncture as you mentioned, but let the Supra have a faster projectile time and do Laser damage (which should devastate shields but do lesser damage to Health), seeing as how it spits out lasers. :S

I'm against adding a new ammo type, because that'll dilute the ammo drop pool, and would make all other drops less common (including the unobtanium sniper ammo drops),

[KittyDarkling]

As far as ammo types are concerned I think I might start up a new thread xD I'll post it here if you guys are interested

[Wolfstorm18]

No, no, no. No. No. NO!

 

We should be urging DE to REDUCE the number of ammo boxes and ammo types, not giving them ideas for more.

The ammo rainbow on the ground should be the next rainbow to fix after the elemental one.

 

In its current form, different ammo types serve no purpose, add no gameplay, create unnecesarry screen clutter, and are entirely redundant.

 

 

Yes it is very annoying after 20 waves of defense to see the floor turned into a colored ammo dump. A solution would be to make them disappear after some minutes.

[KittyDarkling]

Just made the post guys!

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/128238-lets-talk-about-ammo/

[MageMeat]

Generally, this is how I think it should look in order of power.

1. Supra

2. Soma

3. Gorgon

About 2 and 3, I can't really make a sure decision on which should be better, but I honestly don't care.

[Xhos]

I'm against adding a new ammo type, because that'll dilute the ammo drop pool, and would make all other drops less common (including the unobtanium sniper ammo drops),

Everyone forgets about ammo mutation... Sigh...