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Fixing Metas - Slash/Heat/Viral Comparatively OP


Grav_Starstrider
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Of course all of the following are just my opinions, but I think using all of the suggestions, or picking and choosing specific ones and taking them further, would help balance the different IPS and Elements against each other, so that each was compelling, with none being glaringly inferior to others.

Slash

Spoiler

Slash is overwhelmingly good compared to Impact and Puncture. This is predominantly because not only is it the only damage out of IPS that does extra damage upon status procs, but these status procs also benefit from crits, and the status proc is the explicit counter to one of the enemy's most potent counter to player DPS in later levels: Armor Scaling.

Lore/logic-wise, Slash is intended to be anti-flesh, which makes sense as blades are turned by hard Armored surfaces, and already-glancing blows (which is what differentiates "slashes" from bludgeoning or penetrations) would of course be turned by a force-field or energy-barrier. It doesn't make sense for Slash procs to ignore armor. I propose that slash procs no longer ignore armor, in the same spirit that DE updated slash to no longer bypass shields. Voila, Slash meta slashed. Still can remain the only IPS that allows you to stack more damage via procs continuously, and still is the only IPS that'd straight up do more raw damage to a single given target by repeatedly applying the element (or even just 1 good Slash Proc from a really high base slash damage proc). Slash proc's base damage output can be buffed enough so that Slash is still comparable against non-armored enemies when compared to Heat or Corrosive vs Armored enemies, or Toxin or Magnetic or Impact vs Shields. We could also add 2 initial ticks of Slash to occur upon the initial Proc, helping cement it as the "DPS" of the IPS in exchange for the nerf. This would help make high-slash weapons still good at immediately whittling enemy health down a bit faster.

Impact and Puncture

Spoiler

Just nerfing Slash would only make the game harder (not that I'd mind, too trivial if you're running anything meta atm), and Impact and Puncture could still use some attention and improvement.

Impact's meant to be the anti-shield physical damage type. Bullets with too much mass for a deflection-shield to cancel out the inertia. Impact could do any or all of the following, depending on how strong we make the chosen effects:
Do a big chunk of bonus damage against the shield, whittling it away faster.
Have the one bullet break through the shield successfully, doing a reduced amount of damage directly to the target and allowing a second chance at a crit and/or status proc (perhaps with a .75 multiplier/nerf) to affect the enemy's health directly, rather than only affecting the shields (which is what status types other than Toxin and Magnetic should do).
Cause Mercy-eligible foes to become Mercy-eligible sooner than it currently does (by the time you've stacked enough elemental or slash procs onto a Steel Path Heavy enemy to whittle their health down to the point they're Mercy-Eligible, they're primed to get wasted with just another second of melee or gunning). I personally think the current thresholds would make more sense if Eximi and Heavy enemies were rarer, but proportionally even more tanky, so that Mercy was more easily able to be performed, and was more impactful on the game.
Concuss and "Blind" or "Finisher-expose" standard enemies, leaning into the established functionality of improving Mercy kill thresholds (per enough small impact procs, or one big impact proc, depending on how much base Impact damage was present on the strike in question).

Puncture is supposed to be the anti-armor, as characterized by its damage bonuses, and the logic that spears and crossbow bolts historically punched through armors. Giving puncture procs innate punchthrough (or improved melee follow-through and a small increase in range), and either a percentage or flat armor reduction (either per proc, or based on component puncture damage on the proc'ing bullet/strike) would finally give puncture damage a meaningful use beyond "make one enemy do slightly less damage to you for a brief amount of time in which they'll probably die from other better procs anyways". To prevent puncture from being abusively crowd-procc'ing, crit and status, as proposed above with impact, a .75 multiplier could be applied to the punched-through bullet's crit and status chance, and the punchthrough's numerical value could scale off of the weapon's component Punchthrough value (but with a guarantee of going through the initial enemy it procs on).

IPS in summary

Make Slash anti-flesh (not anti-armor), make Puncture actually punch-through and be a counter to armor like it's supposed to be, and make Impact anti-shield and CC/melee oriented.

On to the Elements.

Single Elements Compared

Spoiler

Proc-wise, in order of descending DPS efficacy (assuming targeted against a foe it's suitable against), we have Heat (with it's improved stackability and Armor reduction), Toxin (stackable, shield bypass), Electric (stackable), and Cold.
In order of descending crowd control potency, we have Cold/Electric tying (single-target longer duration but never fully stopping, vs chain-stun with short duration), Heat ("panic" effect), and Toxin.
Cold isn't adequately more effective than Electricity, Toxin, and Heat, considering that Cold has no added DPS value at all. Heat has linearly infinite damage scaling potential, it doesn't need to also do CC, unless the other 3 elements are majorly buffed to compete with it's CC or DPS output. Cold should do as Frost's Avalanche does, freezing enemies solid and removing armor from them, with enough stacks, and having a "warm-up and cool-down" like Heat does with its armor strip. Toxin and Electric could/should enjoy the same linearly inifinite damage scaling that Heat has, to level their playing fields (albeit Electric less so, as it has the benefit of CC).

Combo Elements

Spoiler

Corrosive, Viral, and Magnetic each are intended (or in Viral's case, effectively-so) as faction-dedicated elements, while Blast is single-target CC, Radiation is single-target CC and DPS, and Gas is AoE DPS.
Viral procs literally multiply all other types of damage to health, making it a ludicrously effective universal damage type, as it's not fully stopped by armor, and works on shielded enemy's health once their shield has been removed, giving it universal utility as a DPS multiplier, especially when paired with armor-ignoring Slash procs.
Viral should be nerfed (both on it's own, and also indirectly by making Slash no longer ignore armor), Corrosive and Magnetic procs could use added universal utility and/or DPS, or better faction-specific benefits/efficacy.
Corrosive procs, despite being a faction-dedicated element, doesn't do more armor-stripping than a heat proc provides, until several corrosive procs have been applied, and fails to compete with Viral when Viral is paired with the current Slash, and doesn't add any DPS to any unarmored foes.
Corrosive could/should stack bonus damage due to the acidity (like heat/toxin), and perhaps permanently debuff enemy movement and attack speed by a small amount per proc, up to a modest maximum, such as the first proc slowing 5%, and subsequent 10 procs slowing an additional 2% each, to a total of 25% permanently slowed-down enemy.
Magnetic procs are useless against all non-shielded enemies outright, as unlike Tenno, enemies have no Energy to disrupt, and are useless against enemies whose shields have been broken (aside from preventing them from regenerating for a few extra seconds). Aside from bonus damage to shields, there's no other added DPS.
Making Magnetic jam guns, or apply Mag's bullet attractor fields (scaling in size per proc'ing pellet/melee's magnetic damage component)(give Void true damage ticks instead of bullet-attractor?), or designating certain enemy behaviors as "abilities" and having Magnetic jam them, would be good universal-faction buffs to apply. To specifically improve Magnetic's performance against shields, Magnetic could let the proc'ing pellet/swing disrupt/phase/bypass the shield and have .75x the base swing/pellet's chance to proc a crit/element directly to the enemy's health, instead of the shield eating/nullifying the proc.
After balancing the faction-specific-effective combos against each other and strongest single elements (and the others that I've proposed buffs to in order to make them equal), that leaves Radiation, Gas, and Blast looking really shabby.
Gas's range is pathetic for specifically being an AoE element. Even just bumping up the ranges by 50% would make it more viable, as would giving Gas procs a slight chance to re-proc gas (so that Gas can "build up" in an area, aesthetically neat), or to simply receive a Toxin proc, as they used to. It's kinda bogus that you can't use an AoE-based status proc to deliver status procs in an AoE. It makes it rather useless for things like the new Galvanized Status Chance mods, Condition Overload, and just makes Gas feel extremely weak and ineffective overall.
Radiation isn't in a terrible spot, as a means of very immediately robbing enemies of strategic allies like Eximi, and causing friendly fire among enemies. Suffers from enemy health scaling being ludicrous compared to enemy DPS scaling, though. When you're Oberon or Nyx and can make a LOT of enemies shoot each other instead of you, that's really helpful at high levels, but it doesn't actually directly let you kill enemies faster, which is one of the primary tasks/expectations of the game's current designs. Giving Radiation a small chance of re-proccing to enemies, so that Radiation poisoning is spreading among enemies, and making irradiated enemies not only do bonus damage to other enemies, but have the damage boost scale per enemy level, and have irradiated enemies take extra damage from friendly fire (making it basically an enemy-friendly-fire-centric Viral equivalent).
Blast is an absolute joke, ngl. 6 seconds of accuracy debuff? No AoE? This is a combined element, and it's barely CC, debatably worse than any of the other CC elements/IPS besides the current Puncture. Especially when Warframe enemies often have grenades, napalm, miniguns, or simple melee, rendering enemy inaccuracy barely useful to the Tenno (especially since with many weapons we can only reduce one enemy's accuracy at a time). I'd advocate for Blast being AoE knockdowns and ragdolls and flight-causing, with direct hits functioning similarly to my proposed Impact rework except more generous, as a point-blank explosion should definitely concuss and Finisher-expose the affected enemy.

So to summarize/TLDR;
Heat and Viral and Slash are ridiculous whether in isolation or paired alongside other elements, and either need nerfs and/or to have other elements buffed to be halfway comparable.
Making most of the elements' procs do exclusively 1 thing (that isn't terribly effective) makes the grab bag of Heat's multiple benefits, and the ludicrously universally synergistic damage multiplier of Viral, and Slash's True damage, really stand out. And CC is less valued in Warframe by the day (as you need to kill Corrupted enemies for Traces in Fissure missions, and most other game-modes/missions revolve around killing enemies, and trying to grind for loot/drops also demands as much genocide as possible).
So, the CC elements need their CC to be even more potent alongside some DPS and/or AoE improvements, the AoE elements need to be better at AoE alongside DPS and/or CC improvements/additions, faction-targeting elements need to be better against their faction OR better universally via DPS/CC/AoE, and the DPS elements need to be comparable to the current meta ones like Heat, Viral, and Slash, whether through directly buffing DPS, and/or CC and/or AoE. See above spoilers for details on how.

Reminder that I'm open to alternatives/additions or for people to dislike specific suggestions, as long as they're traded for another one of the suggestions being implemented or improved, or that an argument can be given why something is or isn't under- or over-performing at the moment. Specific numbers weren't given/elaborated on very often because everyone will have a different idea of what is too far or not enough or just right.

Let's keep this constructive? I'd miss my crazy-numbers Dread or Viral-Strike Zaws' relative efficacy with these changes too, I just think that modding and weapon choices would be more varied and meaningful and less strongly-meta-encouraging with these types of changes ūüĎć

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DE is all about hard enforcement of metas.  Content is always tilted to encourage very specific builds, and it's usually the same builds.  The only times they change it up is when there's a massive shift like with the big status rework that made viral/fire so strong.  Then people re-forma things and it generates either forma sales or stockpile depletion.  If literally everything is good and viable and there's strong build diversity for nearly all content they don't have a reason to shake things up and encourage sales and resource spending.  There is no other reason for why they haven't managed to balance the game for this long.

Look at how they "buffed" guns.  They didn't do what they accidentally did with melee and made it so there's actually viability in most melee weapons.  They left all the guns exactly the same, the ones that are trash are still trash and they introduced a whole slew of new things to tediously farm in order to see the "buffs" and then most of those things require even more time/resources because you'll be spending forma to put the new higher drain mods on, and farming SE to buy the adapters to put the arcanes on your favorite guns.  They messed up with melee which is why they keep nerfing it.  They made it so nearly all of it is viable in the majority of content and even some surprising weapons are viable in SP.  And other than forma for builds no one had to farm anything new, we just got straight buffs.  There's no way they were going to do that again.  Not the new DE. 

EDIT: I also wanted to add this.  There's 15 damage types.  The only thing most players care about is either damage or defense strip for more damage (and this isn't even our fault.  It's dictated by game mechanics.)  Even then, some defense strips like magnetic only get used in niche cases like dealing with Sisters because of their insanely busted DR.  You could add the most broken, OP CC effects possible to something like cold damage and it still wouldn't get used because you'd have to give up viral, and mod space and the best CC is death.  The extent you'd have to go to for CC and utility effects to be viable on lesser used elements is something DE would never do because they would sound too OP because they wouldn't take into account what you'd be giving up to use them. 

You could have Cold damage freeze enemies on proc 1 and just refresh the freeze timer for every proc after that and DE would call it OP while players were still not using it because it would mean giving up viral.  Nevermind the amount of frames that can lock enemies down, or the speed that you can kill them at even without viral, or that you'd have to give up mod space to spec for a single element with high status to maintain it.  The effect sounds too strong so it will never happen.  You can't just have every single element be high end DOT and defense strip so they put things like the impact proc in and call it good.  

At the same point you can't really just nerf the meta statuses because there's some serious bullet sponges in the game at this point and you need that high end damage.  They've written themselves into a corner with balancing and like I said in the previous part of this post, I think they do it on purpose.  I think most devs for games like this do it on purpose because it gives them a chance to shake up the meta from time to time and increase numbers across the board.  Viral will get nerfed into being useless like gas is at some point, some other element will come out on top and DE will rake in a boat load of forma sales and engagement numbers while people forma those goddamn D polarities off all their gear.

Constructive criticism like you're making would be great in a perfect world.  But honestly every time we (myself included) start spitballing ideas for fixing things it just feels like a bunch of broke people sitting around talking about what they'd do if they won the lottery.  It's fun to think about, but it's never going to happen.

Edited by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan
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If slash is changed not to bypass armor then the insane armor scaling has to be dealt with first or it will become pretty much as trash as gas. I would however personally prefer for corrosive to get its armor stripping cap moved up to 100% so that it remains much more useful at higher levels. Back before the status rework corrosive was right up there with viral/slash due to its armor stripping after all. So actually allowing other options when dealing with ludicrous armor would drop the reliance on slash, reducing the armor would also drop the reliance on slash procs for the same reason.

CC status effects are, and will be, sub par because they are CC in a game where every enemy must die. Why waste time on making the enemy stand still when you can just build damage and kill them instead? All the targets where CC would really be useful tend to be more or less immune to it as well. Blast is especially horrid as it it just gives -accuracy which isn't even noticeable as the enemies already have stormtrooper aim whenever you move fast. As a rule of thumb in this game, if a status effect doesn't make you more efficient at killing enemies its bad. Impact is just a complete waste as well since parazon kills are still more or less only slowing you down even at high levels. 
What to do with all the currently useless (Impact, puncture, gas and blast) status effects i don't know. Everything else at least has a niche use but those four are either terrible or outright detrimental. Cold is pure CC but it does have niche uses, like on the epitaph where it lets you slow down enemies for easier headshots. Radiation is also pretty good for CC as it turns all the enemies on eachother, which means they aren't shooting at anyone else.

Should these changes be implemented without first dealing with the armor scaling id expect viral slash builds to end up dead instantly and be replaced with corrosive heat. Possibly with xatas whisper ending up the primary subsumed ability to deal with armored enemies due to it dealing true damage (like slash is now) with the changed status effect. If slash is buffed due to no longer bypassing armor its going to be the meta against anything unarmored.

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39 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

CC status effects are, and will be, sub par because they are CC in a game where every enemy must die.

Mobile Defence, Sabotage, Rescue, Spy... there's actually plenty of gamemodes which can be successfully completed with zero fatalities. Excavation only actually requires the player to kill the Power Carriers, the rest of the mobs just need to be prevented from damaging the drills.

As I see it, the real reasons building weapons for CC is a non-starter are:

  • some Warframes have better CC than the Status effects provide, and due to the broken Energy economy, those Abilities can be spammed
  • it's only sensible to CC enemies if killing them takes too long, but the enemies who're exceptionally hard to kill are normally an obligatory fatality -- and often immune to CC Statuses to boot (e.g. Demolysts, Kuva Liches, bosses)

Even if the second point could be addressed (without messing up the early-game experience!), the first point renders it moot.

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The damage types that lead to the shortest TTK's will always be META. The solution to damage type imbalance is the fact that getting low TTK's doesn't need to be completely dependent on the weapon alone, though that could be an option. There are plenty of Warframe powers and Operator schools that increase player efficiency without being direct damage.

Throwing some ideas for weak status effects:

  • Impact: Staggered for 6 seconds and entire body is treated as "head" in damage calculations. Staggered enemies are¬†guaranteed to drop health orbs on death.
  • Puncture: Victim takes +60% more damage on 1st proc, +150% more damage on 10th proc for 8 seconds. Bonus is additive with Viral and Magnetic procs. Each new proc refreshes duration of all previous procs.¬†
  • Magnetic: Victim takes +100% more damage to Shields and pulls nearby enemies towards it in a 6m radius for 6 seconds. Damage caps out at +325%, pull radius caps out at 10.5m.
  • Gas:¬†Enemies are blinded.¬†Gas proc damage per tick: 0.5 x Modded Base Damage x (1+Faction bonuses) x (1+Status Chance)^2¬†
  • Blast:¬†Knockdown, entire body is treated as "head" in damage calculations. Downed¬†enemies are guaranteed to drop energy orb on death.
  • Radiation:¬†Confused enemies deal +100% Radiation Damage against Allies with 10% Status Chance.¬†Subsequent procs increase Radiation Damage by +50% to a cap of +550% and Status Chance by 5% to a cap of 55%.

The main complaint about Impact and the old Blast is that they made getting headshots harder. Now, they guarantee headshot damage by hitting any part of the enemy's body. Could also provide an alternative supplement to health and energy. Blast would be useful against energy leaches by refunding energy.

Puncture would be a weaker, but universal Viral/Magnetic. It would be able to recreate the fairly potent Viral+Corrosive combo exclusive to a select few weapons that compares favorably with Viral+Slash into the Steel Path, though not in an endurance run. Corrosive against Ferrite armored Acolytes already have an edge over Viral as they have status caps and are immune to Viral.

Magnetic has extra utility as a "ensnare" or "exodia hunt" that can be put on any weapon with the downside that Magnetic is a pretty mediocre damage type.

Gas has weaker scaling than other elemental damage types and is capped. What if Gas proc damage scaled with Status Chance as hard as a Bane?

Besides the issue of enemy ehp scaling much higher than their damage, enemies tend to use damage types that are intrinsically terrible against themselves. Radiation damage has good multipliers against some of the tankiest units in the game. With added status chance, if the enemies are too tanky, Radiation becomes Endless Chaos as long as team members don't kill too fast.

Edited by DealerOfAbsolutes
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19 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

Mobile Defence, Sabotage, Rescue, Spy... there's actually plenty of gamemodes which can be successfully completed with zero fatalities. Excavation only actually requires the player to kill the Power Carriers, the rest of the mobs just need to be prevented from damaging the drills.

Sure, but the status CC is nowhere near enough to actually do much in those cases since you need to apply the status in the first place. Which means shooting or hitting the enemies, at which point you might as well kill them and remove them completely.

 

10 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

-Snip-

Looks like decent changes here that would make those status effects a lot less terrible.
It may also be worth considering the effect of radiation when it hits players since the current effect of enabling friendly fire is a bit too extreme. Like in the split second it takes for you to notice that you, or a teammate has been hit with radiation they are already dead. Or you if you happened to be anywhere near the line of fire. So there's not much counterplay other than going status immune or being /super/ careful, while on voice comms with a premade party. A new effect of something like becoming entirely unable to heal for the duration on players would be better, but still potentially lethal.

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1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

it's only sensible to CC enemies if killing them takes too long, but the enemies who're exceptionally hard to kill are normally an obligatory fatality -- and often immune to CC Statuses to boot (e.g. Demolysts, Kuva Liches, bosses)

Tbf cold is meta exactly for demolysts in long disruption runs. Normally you want to prime him with cold and viral first, to slow him down and amplify the dmg of your main weapon. But granted this is only relevant for longer runs. 

As for the OP while I agree slash is super meta for armor and heat is incredibly powerful, I'd argue viral is truly the undisputed King of elements. If you prime everything with 10x stacks of viral (and that's almost trivial with a panzer vulpa) you can use almost whatever element you want and it'll be enough to kill everything in SP, including armored grineer. Specially now with new mods and arcanes. The wrong element may not be the fastest dps ofc, but they'll still die more than fast enough at base level. 

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11 hours ago, Vahenir said:

CC status effects are, and will be, sub par because they are CC in a game where every enemy must die. Why waste time on making the enemy stand still when you can just build damage and kill them instead?

I want to throw this out there, despite knowing it will never happen.  There is another option.  Less enemies on screen with less missions requirements making rapid enemy death mandatory.  With survival requiring insane kills per minute and disruption requiring absurd damage at higher levels because of the speed of the demos and the fact that they virtually ignore all CC and several other missions falling right in line with these, CC is nearly useless and damage is king.  The flip side of that is super hard CC, especially with less enemies as proposed, is entirely broken.

Fixing the damage vs CC issues and lackluster status effect issues would require a complete rebalancing of the game.  Nearly any positive change to be made toward balance would require a complete rebalancing of the game because of where the game is sitting right now and the fact that grind and balance are intrinsically tied together.  There's a ton of things that would become unplayable or unattainable with only a partial rebalance with just player nerfs, and the game would become too easy only focusing on enemies, which would lessen grind by an insane amount that even I probably wouldn't agree with completely.

Rebalancing the whole game requires a really hard look at the loot tables and drop rates though, because without speed murder several things with very literally 0.02% drop rates become nearly unobtainable.  Not only are you basically talking about a whole new game at this point, but making the drop tables fair so that you can make the gameplay more balanced has the strong likelihood of messing up the plat economy and direct market spending.  Plenty of games get by only selling cosmetics and utility like inventory space but DE has shown they don't want to do that.  They aren't going to mess up a cashcow just to make the game more enjoyable and more respectful of player's time.

We are where we are in the game on purpose.  I don't care how tinfoil that sounds.  The poor state of balance in this game and many other live service games is maintained on purpose for monetization.  There's a reason any player with even a middling amount of experience can look at a coming change, say "That's going to be OP/That's going to be useless" and then be right but the devs somehow don't see it.  They do see it.  It's on purpose.  

 

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Pretty sure Scott said there were supposed to be buffs to the lacking status types coming at some point.

They also said modular archwings were coming.

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I just realize an easy tweak to fix Viral stacking with Heat and Slash procs.... Just make Viral only multiply/boost direct damage taken, not status procs. If Viral/Crit meta would be too strong, then have it only partially apply to crit damage, or also have it ignore crits, only taking the modded damage of the weapon into account for it's damage boost (while the crit and status proc's damage is dealt at normal strength).

On 2021-08-14 at 4:37 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

DE is all about hard enforcement of metas.

On 2021-08-14 at 4:37 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

They've written themselves into a corner with balancing and like I said in the previous part of this post, I think they do it on purpose.  I think most devs for games like this do it on purpose because it gives them a chance to shake up the meta from time to time and increase numbers across the board.

... Nah? They specifically have been nerfing Slash, and buffing Impact and Puncture, and nerfing Corrosive, and buffing a few other elements like Heat, and changing how Viral works, in an attempt to get things to be less of a dominant meta. If you're right, complaining will do nothing, but if you're wrong, there's a genuine (if small) chance they can and will change it for the better. They have listened to players before, such as when they previously wanted to change impact into a horrifying ragdoll, so I'll (potentially) waste my time, don't feel too pressed to try and save me the effort ;) I don't feel like being a pessimist (or maybe a realist) atm

On 2021-08-14 at 5:20 PM, Vahenir said:

If slash is changed not to bypass armor then the insane armor scaling has to be dealt with first

You've been on my other post ;) tl;dr for others, compress Warframe's damage numbers way down by decoupling mods from exponentially multiplying each other, going from (Base X 2#ofDPSmods = ExponentialWeaponDPS) to (Base X #ofDPSmods= MultiplicativeWeaponDPS). Suddenly, DE would only have to account for something like 1/10th the range of weapon DPS as they currently do, so they can make EHP scaling less insane.

 

On 2021-08-14 at 5:20 PM, Vahenir said:

CC status effects are, and will be, sub par because they are CC in a game where every enemy must die.

22 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

there's actually plenty of gamemodes which can be successfully completed with zero fatalities.

22 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

some Warframes have better CC than the Status effects provide

This argument about CC vs DPS and using Heat is exactly why I've proposed lots of potential DPS adjustments/additions to under-whelming status effects, in order to make them competitive to Heat and Viral and such.

Separately, the argument about the entire game rewarding killing more than it rewards CC... That's a reward structure problem, tbh. If DE made bonuses for full-stealth, or minimal/no enemy deaths, or un-damaged objectives, etc... It'd be nice as an alternative to aiming to genocide as quickly and completely as possible, in order to get the most chances at loot drops. I wouldn't care if killing was still the most effective way, I'd just want alternative reward structures/options than killing everything.
I would personally prefer that DE fixed everything about their game all at once, but for now, it just makes sense to add at least a little bit of DPS to all of the exclusive or near-exclusively CC procs, and more DPS and/or CC to the underperforming DPS procs.

If any one thing, like Void damage, sticks out overly much as an OP thing, then DE should either leave that as Xaku's Signature ability, and let players have a different ability of theirs as a Subsume/Infusion, or they should simply slightly nerf that ability so that it's in line with the other proc's DPS. Actually, that just made me realize, that's purely a numbers issue, not a proc balance issue. Void's proc is the magnetize-bubble, not the true damage. Anyways, if as I've mentioned I'd prefer above, DPS was compressed and Enemy EHP with it, then true-damage would be less essential against late-game targets anyways.

22 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Throwing some ideas for weak status effects:

  • Impact: Staggered for 6 seconds and entire body is treated as "head" in damage calculations. Staggered enemies are¬†guaranteed to drop health orbs on death.
  • Puncture: Victim takes +60% more damage on 1st proc, +150% more damage on 10th proc for 8 seconds. Bonus is additive with Viral and Magnetic procs. Each new proc refreshes duration of all previous procs.¬†
  • Magnetic: Victim takes +100% more damage to Shields and pulls nearby enemies towards it in a 6m radius for 6 seconds. Damage caps out at +325%, pull radius caps out at 10.5m.
  • Gas:¬†Enemies are blinded.¬†Gas proc damage per tick: 0.5 x Modded Base Damage x (1+Faction bonuses) x (1+Status Chance)^2¬†
  • Blast:¬†Knockdown, entire body is treated as "head" in damage calculations. Downed¬†enemies are guaranteed to drop energy orb on death.
  • Radiation:¬†Confused enemies deal +100% Radiation Damage against Allies with 10% Status Chance.¬†Subsequent procs increase Radiation Damage by +50% to a cap of +550% and Status Chance by 5% to a cap of 55%.

 

Some of these I'd definitely be willing to see as additions or replacements to the current procs or my proposed procs! Some of them I feel a little bit weird about, but even those are definitely better than what they are currently, without being too OP and shooting past Heat/Viral's current effectiveness! I'd be glad for DE to cherrypick whatever they want out of our ideas.

22 hours ago, Vahenir said:

the effect of radiation when it hits players

You're right. Nullifying energy/health regen would be good alternatives to being able to deal all of your current DPS to other allies. If they wanna keep the friendly fire, I'd vote that they implement a DR to PvP damage under the effects of radiation.

21 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Tbf cold is meta exactly for demolysts in long disruption runs

Aha, we found one of the few places where outright CC is potentially (approaching) mandatory. As mentioned above, I wish they would update the entire game's damage/EHP balance, maybe then they could whip out not-unfair minibosses that you may prefer to actually just CC and avoid/ignore or whittle down over time instead of all at once, a thing you'd wanna keep your distance from, or keep away from their allies who are rushing you. Also updating reward structures to reward CC or avoidance/stealth-centric gameplays, as they're their own kinds of work and skill. If they implement my proposed damage rework, we might see a shift back to CC being situationally viable/competitive choices.

21 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I'd argue viral is truly the undisputed King of elements.

There's a reason it was in the title, haha. A single proc of heat went a LONG way towards armor reduction, which is the late-game EHP booster up the wazoo for the tankiest enemies, endurance/steel-path grineer. But you're right, Viral is so universal (once you get past any shields).

With mainly just 3 out of all IPS and Elements being considered truly OP, and with only around 5 or so of IPS and Elements feeling truly underwhelming, it would potentially be simpler to just nerf Viral and Heat and Slash a bit and buff the 5ish weakest procs, rather than buffing everything else to match the 3 comparatively OP ones.

I don't care either way, whether DE buffs what's currently not matching up to what's OP, or if they nerf what's OP down to what're performing an average amount. Either way, it'd be better for game balance.

13 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There is another option.  Less enemies on screen with less missions requirements making rapid enemy death mandatory.  With survival requiring insane kills per minute and disruption requiring absurd damage at higher levels because of the speed of the demos and the fact that they virtually ignore all CC and several other missions falling right in line with these, CC is nearly useless and damage is king.  The flip side of that is super hard CC, especially with less enemies as proposed, is entirely broken.

9 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

and do something about aoe weapon spam 

There's another-another option. Have a more clear divergence between enemies so that we have weakling hordes that we barely have to be concerned about killing, and more clearly potent minibosses. Still keep the medium-ish units. Maybe something like a 16-3-1 ratio of Light units, Medium/Tactical units, and Miniboss-like units? Having 70% of the game's spawns remain squishier and simpler to kill, and harder to be killed by except by sheer numbers, is appropriate for this horde-shooter-and-hack-and-slash. Tactical units like stealth-sensing/countering animals and their handlers, or shield drones, or Medium units that simply don't die quite as quickly to diluted AoE damage, and deal a little bit more damage to the player, and minibosses like Noxes, Bursas, Juggernauts, and Eximi, would be comparatively rare enough, that they could be buffed to be more worth potent and worth looking out for and being careful of. The minibosses especially could be buffed further beyond what their current tankiness and DPS is.
Then, you'd have clear targets worthy of applying single-target damage abilities/weaponry/procs to, and enemies cumulatively worth and capable of being killed by AoE abilities/weaponry/procs.

I'll reiterate that these kinds of changes would probably be easier to balance if DE did my decoupling idea covered in the forum post I linked. It's an unfortunate fact of the game, that so many things are interlinked and would ideally need to be balanced at once. I just think a couple of the things are absolutely necessary to change for the game's balance and new-player-friendliness to improve.

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On 2021-08-14 at 11:20 PM, Vahenir said:

 I would however personally prefer for corrosive to get its armor stripping cap moved up to 100% so that it remains much more useful at higher levels.

Moved up to 95 or 99.95% (depending on what DE treats as end game as apparently we are now balancing around the "this isnt endgame and wont be balanced around" 2.5 SP values), as such builds wouldnt require to minmax mambo proc rates to not hit 100% before killing a enemy to get the resist/vuln damage amp.

Also for OP big no on nerfing already nerfed slash when it was supposed to be the health only proc and now is somehow bleeding shields.

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4 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Moved up to 95 or 99.95% (depending on what DE treats as end game as apparently we are now balancing around the "this isnt endgame and wont be balanced around" 2.5 SP values), as such builds wouldnt require to minmax mambo proc rates to not hit 100% before killing a enemy to get the resist/vuln damage amp.

Also for OP big no on nerfing already nerfed slash when it was supposed to be the health only proc and now is somehow bleeding shields.

I honestly feel sorry for the guy who implemented the 80% strip cap because his careful math was immediately wasted by the guy who decided to throw in armor multipliers in SP.

Corrosive damage has a +75% bonus against Ferrite which means Corrosive damage mitigates 75% of the armor value and has a 1.75x multiplier against it. Paired with the additional 80% strip from Corrosive procs, Corrosive faces 5% effective Ferrite armor with a 1.75x multiplier against it. 

This breaks even with the old 100% armor strip when that 5% of armor negates the 1.75x multiplier, which is afforded by 43% DR, 225 Net Armor, or 4500 Initial Armor.

Under 4500 Ferrite and the New Corrosive is stronger. Above 4500 Ferrite and the Old Corrosive is stronger. Corrosive being neutral against Alloy is generally weaker than Radiation at relevant levels.

Of course, 4500 armor is what a Heavy Gunner sports at level 74 and the new gentler S-curve scaling kicks in not long after that at level 80. In normal levels of play, with the exception of Alloy units, Corrosive should feel about the same before and after.

Another thing to note is that 4xIPS weighting was removed, making it harder to proc IPS, most notably Slash. Viral/Slash Status weapons used to proc Slash more often than Viral, but this was reversed resulting in players having to fiddle around with +120% Slash mods and unranked Cold/Toxin mods for optimal use against armor.

But, these changes did not account for:

  • 2.5x Armor multiplier in Steel Path
  • Hunter Munitions, Melee weapons with Bleed procs baked into Stances only got stronger from Viral's buff
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2 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

I honestly feel sorry for the guy who implemented the 80% strip cap because his careful math was immediately wasted by the guy who decided to throw in armor multipliers in SP.

Laughing Hard GIF by memecandy

Was dead before that. Alloy is the far more dominant armor type, and Corrosive just loses to Viral on that. Better per proc value, and even when Corrosive "wins" (at 10 procs and >6500 armor) the damage increase relative to Viral is laughably low. Add in Heat and that breakpoint shifts to 13k armor.
"Careful math" not really.

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38 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

I honestly feel sorry for the guy who implemented the 80% strip cap because his careful math was immediately wasted by the guy who decided to throw in armor multipliers in SP.

But, these changes did not account for:

    2.5x Armor multiplier in Steel Path
    Hunter Munitions, Melee weapons with Bleed procs baked into Stances only got stronger from Viral's buff

Actually, since melee 2.9998 removed a decent chunk of innate slash procs in stances (and neutered a lot of good ones with animation locks/removal of free move or keyboard steer, but thats more in the sense of making the gameplay feel so S#&$ the attacks wont be used) and lowered the melee damage ceiling massively, the amount of slash is in theory appropriate for levels 80~100 (sorties essentially), however the real problem player here is that some stances animation trimming gave them massive net dps multipliers (blind justice for example went from around 4~5x which would be very slightly above average to 7-8x, which is effectively free double slash.

HM has too much variance for it to be relevant for the dps calc/typically you can count it as just a 160~172%/prime elemental mod (assuming it runs its duration vs heavy) as good slash procs vs any relevant enemies should be on hits that already deal significant damage unless the weapon specifically has nothing against armor.

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7 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

... Nah? They specifically have been nerfing Slash, and buffing Impact and Puncture, and nerfing Corrosive, and buffing a few other elements like Heat, and changing how Viral works, in an attempt to get things to be less of a dominant meta.

I already addressed this.  At the same time they nerfed slash, the gave mediocre buffs to impact and puncture that did nothing to make them more relevant, and the nerf to corrosive came with the buff to fire that you mentioned as well as the massive buff to Viral.  This is the meta shake up that purposeful imbalance allows them to do periodically and it generates playtime and forma sales.  If everything was balanced and relevant and viable in higher end content then they would have no reason to shake anything up and generate the playtime where people are re-modding and reapplying forma to their gear for the new meta.  They will never balance the game.  The scales will always tip in favor of something else because that's good for business, just not good for us.  

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6 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The scales will always tip in favor of something else because that's good for business, just not good for us.

If that was the case they'd never have taken away the slot-machine Kubrow randomization, and they wouldn't have left Slash as the meta out of IPS. It's still the meta. It's why there's new mods that convert Impact procs into Slash, because they know it's still the best. Heat is as good as it is because they went too hard on it because they were considering Heat as part of Ember's rework, rather than as a balancing act, and Viral got so good because they fundamentally changed how it worked, instead of flat-halving enemy health as soon as it procs once, it has a build-up, and is good when paired with more than just Slash.

They didn't make another Archwing outright meta for mobility, they just extracted Blink from Itzal and shared it around. They haven't nerfed Archwings so badly that K-Drives are useful by comparison.

I don't feel like being this pessimistic about it. I lose nothing but my time that I'm choosing to spend, presenting DE with my ideas for how they could re-balance their game. And actually, making everything competitive and viable would make people far less likely to just sit on one build forever. People would be able to constantly re-polarize to fit one or two different mod combinations onto their otherwise static build. Rather than seeing the meta, polarizing for it once, and then never again, which is how it feels like it currently is. Heat/Viral becoming more viable when some of the mods already shared polarities with Corrosive/Slash doesn't really indicate that DE did that to bump up Forma sales. On the contrary, making everything competitive would be what would cause Forma sales to skyrocket. People would spend Forma on more currently-non-meta weapons, and would be willing to dump Forma into new weapons, not passing on them just because of their element/IPS weight.

I've made the "it's bad for their business" counterargument to other posters before, but DE has been reasonably balanced, and has weighted player QoL above Money occasionally. It just has to be a compelling enough reason. You can disagree, but I think this counts, we can just wait and talk specifics until DE eventually (hopefully) weighs in.

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9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually, since melee 2.9998 removed a decent chunk of innate slash procs in stances (and neutered a lot of good ones with animation locks/removal of free move or keyboard steer, but thats more in the sense of making the gameplay feel so S#&$ the attacks wont be used) and lowered the melee damage ceiling massively, the amount of slash is in theory appropriate for levels 80~100 (sorties essentially), however the real problem player here is that some stances animation trimming gave them massive net dps multipliers (blind justice for example went from around 4~5x which would be very slightly above average to 7-8x, which is effectively free double slash.

Not so sure about removing a decent chunk of slash procs. There where a few removed here and there, but not much if memory (and wiki history) serves me right. Some stances even got slash procs added.

As for the DPS gain, that was more because of stances getting damage multipliers added/enhanced.
Crossing Snakes is a good example of that. Went from basically no damage multipliers to having 3x damage on some hits.
 

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11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Also for OP big no on nerfing already nerfed slash when it was supposed to be the health only proc and now is somehow bleeding shields.

Slash should be nerfed against armor, because it's not supposed to be the anti-armor damage type. Armor should mitigate Slash procs. Slash would still do damage against Armor and Shields, because we don't wanna make it useless, it just wouldn't bypass shields (like DE fixed it to no longer do) and armor (like DE should adjust it to not do). And Slash-Viral as a combo could be reigned in by having Viral's damage boost only affect weapon damage, or decreased bonuses to procs and crits, rather than the full amount, in order to prevent such explicit/obvious meta synergies.

You're kinda contradicting yourself? If you're complaining that it's doing anything against shields because it's supposed to be anti-health, then it doesn't make sense for it to be anti-armor by ignoring armor. Unless you're asking for it to ignore both again, which would only elevate it back to being the dominant-meta-IPS-proc :/

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Not so sure about removing a decent chunk of slash procs. There where a few removed here and there, but not much if memory (and wiki history) serves me right. Some stances even got slash procs added.

As for the DPS gain, that was more because of stances getting damage multipliers added/enhanced.
Crossing Snakes is a good example of that. Went from basically no damage multipliers to having 3x damage on some hits.

I'm all in favor of saying that the melee update was a net positive, even if some specific stances, combos, and melee moves got tweaked adversely.

And if anyone's still saying that forced slash procs are what is keeping some of the melee competitive currently... Then let them be a smidge nerfed by nerfing slash? Most melees are still performing better than most guns in Steel Path, imo.

These suggestions are all about balancing the damage types against each other so that player choice matters. If other things get buffed, then the nerfs to the OP things (Slash, Viral, Heat) won't actually be a net decrease in Tenno DPS (except for the MOST meta-abusing outliers).

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5 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

On the contrary, making everything competitive would be what would cause Forma sales to skyrocket. People would spend Forma on more currently-non-meta weapons, and would be willing to dump Forma into new weapons, not passing on them just because of their element/IPS weight.

This will never happen. Even if every gun was perfectly balanced with eachother damage wise people would just flock to whatever is the easiest to use, so stuff like the bramma, acceltra, ignis etc as it is already. Why bother aiming when you can just point the gun in the general direction of the enemy and be effective? If AoE guns and melee are nerfed so hard that they can't effectively kill stuff they will be worthless (Which is probably the only way to get them out of the meta) and get dumped for whatever ends up being the most efficient. The end result is still a massive amount of work for effectively a reshuffle of what weapons people use. Meta is after all literally "Most Effective Tactic Available" and my experience from MMOs where they do have better balance i can pretty much say its just as bad, if not even worse when it comes to adhering to the "meta". Pretty sure a lot of people like being able to turn their brain off and slaughter hordes of enemies easily with <insert aoe weapon here> while watching netflix on the side. Part of the reason why wukong is the most used frame i think.

If armor is changed so it doesn't scale with level then slash will probably be fairly dead just on that as the only reason it is meta is because it bypasses the huge armor levels of high level grineer. If those no longer have high armor, then just bring viral or corrosive and you'd be more effective. If slash is changed so it is also affected by armor, even if armor levels are reduced, it will probably become trash tier compared to toxin, heat or electric. Doubly so since its only good against infested trash, which die if you use harsh language. Unless all armor or shields are stripped of course. If viral is changed to only work on weapon damage it'd also immediately become worse than corrosive in pretty much all situations where any enemies have ferrite armor.

Another thing to note is that slash also scales with base damage and crits so that with your whole stat squish idea it'd be automatically nerfed anyway. 

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6 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Slash should be nerfed against armor, because it's not supposed to be the anti-armor damage type. Armor should mitigate Slash procs. Slash would still do damage against Armor and Shields, because we don't wanna make it useless, it just wouldn't bypass shields (like DE fixed it to no longer do) and armor (like DE should adjust it to not do). And Slash-Viral as a combo could be reigned in by having Viral's damage boost only affect weapon damage, or decreased bonuses to procs and crits, rather than the full amount, in order to prevent such explicit/obvious meta synergies.

Its not anti armor, its anti hp, it does hp damage, it should do hp damage.

6 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

You're kinda contradicting yourself? If you're complaining that it's doing anything against shields because it's supposed to be anti-health

No, it should be what it was, anti hp, raw direct hp damage.

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41 minutes ago, Vahenir said:

This will never happen. Even if every gun was perfectly balanced with eachother damage wise people would just flock to whatever is the easiest to use, so stuff like the bramma, acceltra, ignis etc as it is already. Why bother aiming when you can just point the gun in the general direction of the enemy and be effective? If AoE guns and melee are nerfed so hard that they can't effectively kill stuff they will be worthless (Which is probably the only way to get them out of the meta) and get dumped for whatever ends up being the most efficient. The end result is still a massive amount of work for effectively a reshuffle of what weapons people use. Meta is after all literally "Most Effective Tactic Available" and my experience from MMOs where they do have better balance i can pretty much say its just as bad, if not even worse when it comes to adhering to the "meta". Pretty sure a lot of people like being able to turn their brain off and slaughter hordes of enemies easily with <insert aoe weapon here> while watching netflix on the side. Part of the reason why wukong is the most used frame i think.

If armor is changed so it doesn't scale with level then slash will probably be fairly dead just on that as the only reason it is meta is because it bypasses the huge armor levels of high level grineer. If those no longer have high armor, then just bring viral or corrosive and you'd be more effective. If slash is changed so it is also affected by armor, even if armor levels are reduced, it will probably become trash tier compared to toxin, heat or electric. Doubly so since its only good against infested trash, which die if you use harsh language. Unless all armor or shields are stripped of course. If viral is changed to only work on weapon damage it'd also immediately become worse than corrosive in pretty much all situations where any enemies have ferrite armor.

Another thing to note is that slash also scales with base damage and crits so that with your whole stat squish idea it'd be automatically nerfed anyway. 

These are all good points for DE to be aware of when considering these changes, for sure. And yes, a META will always be determined, but my objective is to reduce the severity or mandatory-ness of the metas. And if stats are squished, then yes, numbers will definitely have to be re-balanced. I very greatly desire for DE to do a PTS for these changes, so that we can identify what stands out, so that your proposed/expected standout metas or overnerfed things can be adjusted.

If DE further separates Heavy enemies from Light enemies, and separates more weapons/abilities and rebalances them so that if they're AoE they're efficient at horde-clearing, but not heavy-clearing, while if they're single-target low-fire-rate non-AoE weapons, they're efficient at heavy-clearing, but not horde-clearing, then player choices will matter more, and your specific array of choices (as an individual and as a squad) would cause some enemy types to be particularly challenging as a consequence of you trivializing the other enemy types. As I mentioned/suggested above.

21 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

There's another-another option. Have a more clear divergence between enemies so that we have weakling hordes that we barely have to be concerned about killing, and more clearly potent minibosses. Still keep the medium-ish units. Maybe something like a 16-3-1 ratio of Light units, Medium/Tactical units, and Miniboss-like units? Having 70% of the game's spawns remain squishier and simpler to kill, and harder to be killed by except by sheer numbers, is appropriate for this horde-shooter-and-hack-and-slash. Tactical units like stealth-sensing/countering animals and their handlers, or shield drones, or Medium units that simply don't die quite as quickly to diluted AoE damage, and deal a little bit more damage to the player, and minibosses like Noxes, Bursas, Juggernauts, and Eximi, would be comparatively rare enough, that they could be buffed to be more worth potent and worth looking out for and being careful of. The minibosses especially could be buffed further beyond what their current tankiness and DPS is.
Then, you'd have clear targets worthy of applying single-target damage abilities/weaponry/procs to, and enemies cumulatively worth and capable of being killed by AoE abilities/weaponry/procs.

There wouldn't be a singular meta for AoE vs Single-Target vs Bullet Hoses, except against specific types of enemies. AoE Frames can double down on targeting light enemies with both gun and abilities, leaving their single-enemy-targeting allies to kill the heavies. Or players can diversify and cover their weaknesses, using a single-enemy-targeting Warframe to kill heavies, and using AoE guns for light enemies.

54 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Its not anti armor, its anti hp, it does hp damage, it should do hp damage.

No, it should be what it was, anti hp, raw direct hp damage.

You're still confusing me.

Previously, Slash was excessively the meta, because it bypassed not only Armor, but also Shields. It's supposed to be the anti-health/flesh damage type. DE nerfed it to match that premise by making it no longer bypass Shields, rather it only does damage to the shields if they're present.
I'm suggesting they make it the anti-HP/Health/Flesh damage type even moreso, by making it more effectively damage unarmored health, but against armored health is subject to the same DR that everything else is. This would be in line with the nerf they already applied to it, preventing it from bypassing shields.
Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me, or we're disagreeing but being obtuse/unclear about it¬†ūüėÖ

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1 hour ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Previously, Slash was excessively the meta, because it bypassed not only Armor, but also Shields. It's supposed to be the anti-health/flesh damage type. DE nerfed it to match that premise by making it no longer bypass Shields, rather it only does damage to the shields if they're present.

I'm suggesting they make it the anti-HP/Health/Flesh damage type even moreso, by making it more effectively damage unarmored health, but against armored health is subject to the same DR that everything else is. This would be in line with the nerf they already applied to it, preventing it from bypassing shields.
Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me, or we're disagreeing but being obtuse/unclear about it¬†ūüėÖ

And im saying no, it should go back even to just be the actual anti-hp proc that directly damages hp.

Also slash wasnt meta on its own (nor is it even now, heat massively outperforms it in 1:1 status output scenarios and the outlier of HM is a crit compensation which cant take advantage of galvanized mods without priming so it still doesnt matter), it relied on massive crit multi levels (T4-5 crit) to be the thing even on weapons not focused on just slash. Unlike what corrosive used to and viral and heat are now.

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