Bring old kuva Nukor back

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

I stick to my original point: 4 is far away from “overpower”, grinner won’t line up obedient wait us to kill it. The practicality of this feature is too low. when the enemies sperate out a little, the chain number between 4-2 will be the “god damn useful haha”and “I should use bramma”.

It's funny that you bring up the Bramma - the K.Nukor of primary weapons. The weapons come out OP, DE nerfs them, people start crying about them not being broken anymore, and here I am running the same old builds and not noticing a difference since both weapons still slaughter. Did you know the Bramma used to have more bomblets, and zero damage falloff? The nerfs this bow got was as severe as the K.Nukor's, if not even worse. Did it make the weapon no longer stupid good? No? And why's that? Because the weapon's just that good, and the nerfs didn't touch the weapon's main upsides. Same with the K.Nukor. 2 beams are plenty, because Punch Through turns 2 into like 8+ against your average crowd, and Warframe enemies sure like traveling in crowds. And if you're not running PT on K.Nukor, what are you even doing? That'd be like running Bramma without Multishot.

[helpmeeplzzz]

12小时前 , Perfectly_Framed_Waifu 说:

It's funny that you bring up the Bramma - the K.Nukor of primary weapons. The weapons come out OP, DE nerfs them, people start crying about them not being broken anymore, and here I am running the same old builds and not noticing a difference since both weapons still slaughter. Did you know the Bramma used to have more bomblets, and zero damage falloff? The nerfs this bow got was as severe as the K.Nukor's, if not even worse. Did it make the weapon no longer stupid good? No? And why's that? Because the weapon's just that good, and the nerfs didn't touch the weapon's main upsides. Same with the K.Nukor. 2 beams are plenty, because Punch Through turns 2 into like 8+ against your average crowd, and Warframe enemies sure like traveling in crowds. And if you're not running PT on K.Nukor, what are you even doing? That'd be like running Bramma without Multishot.

Kuva nukor it’s my top 1 usage rate secondary weapon. replace any mode to pt will decrease half of the damage, so you get one useless function by secrifice almost half the damage.... And plz try use only kuva nukor to pass the steel path mars exterminate such as this mission. this is one important reason why I post this topic. and I use riven mirro to calculate. the bramma, the core of the bramma it’s it 8.3m explosion range. As long as DE don’t touch this, the nerf on damage or whatever things can always find way to bypass it, there is a lot ability can increase damage. But the kuva Nukor, the chain number it’s it CORE, the 4 chain number it’s why this weapon so popular, the chain number is his live, and DE decreases half his live, can u imagine DE decrease half the aoe range in bramma? If they do this, I will abandon this game immediately. 

 

12小时前 , Perfectly_Framed_Waifu 说:

the nerfs didn't touch the weapon's main upsides.

 

12小时前 , Perfectly_Framed_Waifu 说:

the nerfs cut half the weapon's main upsides

 

[Vaml77]

It's hard to understand why DE loves to destroy weapons....should snort the others or create new ones.

The cycron tenet was a copy and paste of the nerfed kuva nukor....no one is using it. DE needs to understand that when one weapon is used more than others it is because the others are either too weak/slow or too boring.

Tenet cycron is awful because the magazine size....

[Duality52]

2 hours ago, Vaml77 said:

The cycron tenet was a copy and paste of the nerfed kuva nukor....no one is using it.

Because it's more balanced than being a complete outlier to the entire weapon Arsenal. I would prefer the Tenet Cycron firing plasma blades for some originality.

On topic, but even with half the Kuva Nukor's chaining effect, it's still overwhelmingly powerful. Nothing changed about its overall and raw killing power compared to majority of the weapons in the game. It's another case of people yelling over losing mere fractions of their power.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

8 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

And plz try use only kuva nukor to pass the steel path mars exterminate such as this mission. this is one important reason why I post this topic

Just came back from doing Steel Path Sedna Exterminate using only the Kuva Nukor, no damage buffing abilities. Done in well under 5 minutes. If this is one important reason for why you post this topic, then this topic really has no ground to stand on. But let's continue anyway, for fun.

8 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

Kuva nukor it’s my top 1 usage rate secondary weapon. replace any mode to pt will decrease half of the damage, so you get one useless function by secrifice almost half the damage....

Here's where you're objectively and completely wrong in all but basic theory. Sure, it would appear on a DPS calculator that replacing, say, Lethal Torren if you run that, with Seeker would drop your damage to a bit below half, but that's because said calculator doesn't take your new ability to hit multiple enemies with your main beam into account. 2 enemies and you basically break even, 3 and PT's benefits become indisputable. And this is if we remove Lethal Torrent, with Seeker.

The recently added secondary arcanes makes Hornet Strike less needed. And if you're like me, with an Nukor riven that gives 1.3 PT and 112% damage, the difference in base dmg between PT and no PT, both with a fully stacked Secondary Merciless, becomes 472 vs. 580. And I am no math genius, but 108 doesn't sound like half of 580 to me. Sounds more like it'd be an 18% DPS loss vs. single targets, and a chonkin' big DPS boost vs. anything more than single targets.

8 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

But the kuva Nukor, the chain number it’s it CORE, the 4 chain number it’s why this weapon so popular, the chain number is his live, and DE decreases half his live

Wrong again. The "core" of the Nukor is that it has chains, not the number of chains, and that it creates that number of chains per enemy hit by the main beam, plus that it has an obnoxiously high crit damage multiplier. The real Nukor killer would be to make only the last enemy hit by the beam create chain beams, or lowering the crit damage.

8 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

the bramma, the core of the bramma it’s it 8.3m explosion range. As long as DE don’t touch this, the nerf on damage or whatever things can always find way to bypass it, there is a lot ability can increase damage. (...) can u imagine DE decrease half the aoe range in bramma? If they do this, I will abandon this game immediately. 

Imagine it? I'd goddamn welcome it! The explosion is so stupidly big, you can blow up a medium-sized room with just one shot, and that's too good in combination with Bramma's actual core - 105% crit chance through Critical Delay and bomblets allowing for reliable Bleeds through Hunter Munition. The high damage definitely contributes, but what really carries the weapon is crit chance, bomblets, and Hunter Munitions. Give it some heavy nerfs in those regards and you'll end up with a lower status Kuva Ogris in bow form. So no, the AoE is not the main selling point.

[helpmeeplzzz]

1小时前 , Perfectly_Framed_Waifu 说:

Just came back from doing Steel Path Sedna Exterminate using only the Kuva Nukor, no damage buffing abilities. Done in well under 5 minutes. If this is one important reason for why you post this topic, then this topic really has no ground to stand on. But let's continue anyway, for fun.

Here's where you're objectively and completely wrong in all but basic theory. Sure, it would appear on a DPS calculator that replacing, say, Lethal Torren if you run that, with Seeker would drop your damage to a bit below half, but that's because said calculator doesn't take your new ability to hit multiple enemies with your main beam into account. 2 enemies and you basically break even, 3 and PT's benefits become indisputable. And this is if we remove Lethal Torrent, with Seeker.

The recently added secondary arcanes makes Hornet Strike less needed. And if you're like me, with an Nukor riven that gives 1.3 PT and 112% damage, the difference in base dmg between PT and no PT, both with a fully stacked Secondary Merciless, becomes 472 vs. 580. And I am no math genius, but 108 doesn't sound like half of 580 to me. Sounds more like it'd be an 18% DPS loss vs. single targets, and a chonkin' big DPS boost vs. anything more than single targets.

Wrong again. The "core" of the Nukor is that it has chains, not the number of chains, and that it creates that number of chains per enemy hit by the main beam, plus that it has an obnoxiously high crit damage multiplier. The real Nukor killer would be to make only the last enemy hit by the beam create chain beams, or lowering the crit damage.

Imagine it? I'd goddamn welcome it! The explosion is so stupidly big, you can blow up a medium-sized room with just one shot, and that's too good in combination with Bramma's actual core - 105% crit chance through Critical Delay and bomblets allowing for reliable Bleeds through Hunter Munition. The high damage definitely contributes, but what really carries the weapon is crit chance, bomblets, and Hunter Munitions. Give it some heavy nerfs in those regards and you'll end up with a lower status Kuva Ogris in bow form. So no, the AoE is not the main selling point.

I shouldn't try to convince you，there is way toooo much difference in our concepts lol. Anyway, I don’t agree with you, the chain number is  knukor’s 

core, DE should add it  back.

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

8 minutes ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

I shouldn't try to convince you，there is way toooo much difference in our concepts lol. Anyway, I don’t agree with you, the chain number is  knukor’s 

core, DE should add it  back.

 

Hmm, you make a compelling argument, there.

[Uhkretor]

11 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

And plz try use only kuva nukor to pass the steel path mars exterminate such as this mission

... that's not an argument, or a reason to justify an argument.

You can even complete Steel Path exterminate missions with a Lato...

 

... No, I'm not trying to debate which is Kuva Nukor's core, if its the beams, PT, or waving *****. Its just a fact I'm presenting that using Steel Path Exterminate missions in an attempt to make an argument, or being used as a reason to justify an argument, is pretty much like doing absolutely nothing.

 

.. Some threads are quite difficult to be taken seriously by a reader... This one, apparently, is one of those.

[Duality52]

5 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

the chain number is  knukor’s 

core,

Again, the Kuva Nukor is a complete outlier to almost the entirety of our weapon Arsenal. Chaining up to 2 enemies instead of 4 changes almost nothing about the weapon. The weapon's raw firepower, especially paired with Arcane Avenger/Harrow (rarely seen to be honest), nothing changed.

This is the same petty argument I have seen in many Workshops: complaining and yelling about losing a fraction of hundreds of thousands of damage/killing a whole platoon a few seconds slower.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

I've got well developed Gaze, Sporelacer, and Catchmoon secondary weapons set up that definitely outpace my Kuva Nukor.

Reducing its chaining was probably a good call.  Even after the nerf, Kuva Nukor is a very solid weapon that competes exceptionally well against weapons that require more deliberate use, aiming and such.

Any ground lost on the Kuva Nukor was almost immediately made up with the release of Galvanized Mods and Secondary Arcane adapters.

[helpmeeplzzz]

19小时前 , Uhkretor 说:

... that's not an argument, or a reason to justify an argument.

You can even complete Steel Path exterminate missions with a Lato...

 

... No, I'm not trying to debate which is Kuva Nukor's core, if its the beams, PT, or waving *****. Its just a fact I'm presenting that using Steel Path Exterminate missions in an attempt to make an argument, or being used as a reason to justify an argument, is pretty much like doing absolutely nothing.

 

.. Some threads are quite difficult to be taken seriously by a reader... This one, apparently, is one of those.

I mean the time, fast or slow.I should say in more detail XD. The enemies are all spread out in the few tarrain. and navigation point keep let me run back few hundredths meter to just kill 1 or 2 targets. OMG this almost kill me. At this moment I was thinking: this stupid situation will never happened if the the kuva nukor chain number wasn’t have been nerf.

[Uhkretor]

58 minutes ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

I mean the time, fast or slow.I should say in more detail XD. The enemies are all spread out in the few tarrain. and navigation point keep let me run back few hundredths meter to just kill 1 or 2 targets. OMG this almost kill me. At this moment I was thinking: this stupid situation will never happened if the the kuva nukor chain number wasn’t have been nerf.

... Right~...

 

... Do let me know when you get to the part where magically the higher number of chains affect distances of hundreds of meters between 2 enemies...

[helpmeeplzzz]

59分钟前 , Uhkretor 说:

... Right~...

 

... Do let me know when you get to the part where magically the higher number of chains affect distances of hundreds of meters between 2 enemies...

....if the chain number is higher, it will link and kill to the enemies hide in the dark! The stupid navigation will put the point back to the few enemies after I already run few hundredths meter away.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 minutes ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

....if the chain number is higher, it will link and kill to the enemies hide in the dark! The stupid navigation will put the point back to the few enemies after I already run few hundredths meter away.

Having played the game, I can say from experience that you're wrong here. Higher chain number will not magically fix this, because the issue is the chain length, because the reality is that enemies do not kindly line up with the perfect distance between them.

 

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

....if the chain number is higher, it will link and kill to the enemies hide in the dark! The stupid navigation will put the point back to the few enemies after I already run few hundredths meter away.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Idc about the chaining effect I wish it never happened in the first place. I just want the old visual circle beam affect back, that was the reason why I loved the weapon and now DE ruined it.

[helpmeeplzzz]

19小时前 , Perfectly_Framed_Waifu 说:

Having played the game, I can say from experience that you're wrong here. Higher chain number will not magically fix this, because the issue is the chain length, because the reality is that enemies do not kindly line up with the perfect distance between them.

 

The probability of this happening in the past is much smaller than it is now. As for the reason, I believe anyone who plays for a long time knows it.

 

[helpmeeplzzz]

I don't have any bad intentions，I just don't understand why many people on this topic  think cut half to the chain number is "almost equals nothing". Can someone explain to me where is those thoughts come from? I feel like I play a totally different game with  ↗ u guys...

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-08-17 at 5:55 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Speaking as someone with a PT Nukor riven, that's a pretty massive caveat. Not just for the reason you mentioned as an upside for the Gaze, but because the K.Nukor creates an additional chain beam for each and every enemy hit by the main beam, making PT a golden stat on it, and Nukor Rivens totally worth it despite abysmal disposition just for whatever side benefit it'll give you besides PT. Also, were you running Arcane Avenger in that DPS calculation? Because K.Nukor's crit damage is nothing to sleep on.

The Gaze as a secondary has automatic PT as a stat without using a mod slot or riven stat slot to get it.  Every chaining beam weapon hits more enemies when using PT, unless they've changed that, so you're arguing about an RNG stat on a riven that the Gaze has as a base stat.   Also because I forgot to mention it earlier, shoutout to the fact that the beam on the Gaze doesn't oscillate like the Nukor's does.

And no, no arcanes were factored into DPS calc, only the Charge arcane for its utility, especially since it uses its own slot.  The biggest thing is that (and yes, I run crit mods on my Nukor build.) constant crit with solid CD on the Gaze is worth more than fewer but stronger crits on the Nukor.  Even just calculated average damage over a set number of ticks, not factoring in FR, my Gaze is stronger.  Factor in higher FR and the Gaze easily passes it.  Over a few lucky hits where you crit more than the expected average, for that burst the Nukor will obviously have more damage but that's unreliable RNG and getting into conversations around spike vs DOT.  If you factor in a perfectly rolled riven for the Nukor and only my pretty good riven for the Gaze they would be probably close to even, with the Nukor maybe coming out on top but you're talking about having the stars align or a much more expensive weapon at that point.  For the average player the Gaze will be stronger with the same amount of investment per weapon.  It will also have more utility.

I'm not trying to S* on the Nukor.  I'm coming from a place of shameful experience because I hated the Gaze when I ran it for MR.  The game kept giving me Rivens for it though so I planned the build, rebuilt it to my specs,  forma'd it out and in testing and in content (Only gun I take into a solo Prodman run now.) it passes or meets the Nukor in every relevant way.  The Nukor is obviously no slouch, and I'm not saying that.  But you guys should really try a fully built out Gaze for yourselves before calling me a liar.

Also, the more everyone branches out, the harder it will be for DE to nerf things based on popularity.  Don't overlook the Sporelacer secondary either.  It's probably one of the strongest weapons in the game right now.  It is an absolute hammer and I'm 90% sure the only reason it's not popular is because DE thinks self-stagger was a good replacement for self-damage, and that either mechanic is fun.  Running it on a frame with (yes I use this mod despite hating it.  I am part of the problem.) Primed Surefooted though and the only thing that can slow you down are SP heavy units and things with invulnerability phases or extreme DR like a Sister or Lich.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2021-08-18 at 10:18 PM, Vaml77 said:

DE needs to understand that when one weapon is used more than others it is because the others are either too weak/slow or too boring.

Apologies for being rude, but this mindset is both destructive to overall game balance and broadly naive. When one weapon is used substantially more than all others, that means it's substantially more powerful than all the others nearly every time. "Simply" buffing all other weapons to match the overperforming one gives you power creep, necessitating increases in enemy stats which brings us right back around to the same situation. The overpowered weapon is less powerful relative to the others, except it took a lot more work to pull off and brought us closer to stats that break core gameplay mechanics.

I'm not claiming this the following to be equivalent to the Kuva Nukor but I'm mentioning it for the sake of context: If you gave players a weapon which instantly killed all enemies on the map and completed the mission, that would see by far the highest usage of all weapons. Does that justify buffing all other weapons to also do the same? And before you accuse me of making this up: Division 2 suffered a bug where players could stack damage buffs infinitely, causing them to insta-kill nearly everything including bosses. Some argued that "FINALLY! The game is actually fun! This is how all weapons should be!" That bug was instead fixed.

Smart design will aim for a median value of performance. When outliers are identified, they should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. They, not "the everything else."

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

18 hours ago, helpmeeplzzz said:

I just don't understand why many people on this topic  think cut half to the chain number is "almost equals nothing". Can someone explain to me where is those thoughts come from

Seems like you're not willing to listen, because last time someone tried that, your response was

On 2021-08-19 at 1:59 AM, helpmeeplzzz said:

 

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And no, no arcanes were factored into DPS calc (...) constant crit with solid CD on the Gaze is worth more than fewer but stronger crits on the Nukor.  (...)  Over a few lucky hits where you crit more than the expected average, for that burst the Nukor will obviously have more damage but that's unreliable RNG and getting into conversations around spike vs DOT.

Gee, if only there was an arcane that turned "a few lucky hits" into "every damn hit". Oh wait, there is, and it's one of those Arcanes that you're not factoring into your DPS calc. So yeah, sure, if you're not taking advantage of K.Nukor's strengths, you can argue that Gaze is better, but I don't see why I should discuss with you if you're gonna look past what makes the K.Nukor good. BTW, you don't need a perfectly rolled riven for the K.Nukor, you just need PT and one other beneficial stat. Seeker alone is worth slotting into your K.Nukor build, so having another stat that benefits you just makes it great.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Seems like you're not willing to listen, because last time someone tried that, your response was

 

Gee, if only there was an arcane that turned "a few lucky hits" into "every damn hit". Oh wait, there is, and it's one of those Arcanes that you're not factoring into your DPS calc. So yeah, sure, if you're not taking advantage of K.Nukor's strengths, you can argue that Gaze is better, but I don't see why I should discuss with you if you're gonna look past what makes the K.Nukor good. BTW, you don't need a perfectly rolled riven for the K.Nukor, you just need PT and one other beneficial stat. Seeker alone is worth slotting into your K.Nukor build, so having another stat that benefits you just makes it great.

You're making an argument that a warframe arcane that works on both weapons is an advantage only to one of them, and assuming that you will always have the arcane equipped on all frames and always have the effect up.  Considering a lot of players try to avoid taking hits in much higher level content where the levels of damage these weapons can put out matters, you will not have 100% uptime on Avenger for either weapon and it's honestly stupid to try and say that one weapon is better than another based on a conditional buff.  Stug is good because Chroma!  Right.

Making the assumption that you will always run Avenger just for the sake of winning an argument with an internet stranger, and granting you the completely idiotic idea that you will always have Avenger active, the Nukor would edge out the Gaze in DPS by like 11%.  11% for a highly stipulated completely made up scenario.  Congrats, you win.  We can sit and argue what-if scenarios all day.  The fact is that without all those stipulations like situational buffs that take up an arcane slot, for most players, most of the time, the Gaze is 100% stronger with the same level of investment.  Considering you decided to take a condescending tone in your reply about how a Warframe arcane is what makes the Nukor good, I'm done with this conversation.  And as much as I hate nerfs, it's people like you in this community that make me hope they nerf the goddamn thing again.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

You're making an argument that a warframe arcane that works on both weapons is an advantage only to one of them

You're not halfway through your first sentence and you're already strawmanning me? Fine argument, right there. It's an advantage for both of them, but one benefits vastly more than the other.

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

and assuming that you will always have the arcane equipped on all frames and always have the effect up.  Considering a lot of players try to avoid taking hits in much higher level content where the levels of damage these weapons can put out matters, you will not have 100% uptime on Avenger for either weapon and it's honestly stupid to try and say that one weapon is better than another based on a conditional buff.  Stug is good because Chroma!  Right.

Aren't you assuming that you will always select Gaze parts built for crit? Didn't you base your Gaze DPS on a specific riven roll? If your main argument against the Nukor is "we can't assume people are always playing to the weapon's upsides, thus you cannot include obvious and accessible factors", I suggest you take an honest look at your own argument as well. Also, need I remind you that Shield Gating is a thing that exists nowadays? Taking a hit once in a while is not a problem, and something basically any frame can do, so Arcane Avenger is very much a consistent and available option if you want to kill stuff with the Nukor. Thus, cutting out the anger and provable nonsense from your second paragraph, all I see is

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Congrats, you win.

[Rawbeard]

it still murders the entire room in a split second, so I don't see why we need it to do that in half a split second.

[iPathos]

On 2021-08-20 at 9:59 AM, helpmeeplzzz said:

The enemies are all spread out in the few tarrain. and navigation point keep let me run back few hundredths meter to just kill 1 or 2 targets. OMG this almost kill me. At this moment I was thinking: this stupid situation will never happened if the the kuva nukor chain number wasn’t have been nerf.

...bruh.

I'm someone who used the base Nukor before I even got a method of boosting additive crit chance, and have continued using the Kuva Nukor since obtaining it even post-nerf. Your argument here about the reduction in chain targets affecting extermination spawn algorithms or (more likely) your own inability to pay enough attention to the minimap/enemy movement/sound cues just goes to show how hollow your initial point was and is. The KNukor still has just as low a floor in terms of effort needed vs power output, with a fractionally lower ceiling. It still devastates enemies, it still chains plenty, it still applies status like a firehose.

As for the chains being the core of the Nukor family... Many have already covered these but the Atomos, Gaze and Cycron are all viable alternatives just within the secondary category. Arguably its stat split (super high cd mult with super low crit chance and the fact it has such high status output) is more "the core" than the chaining itself, since that has been the case for the entirety of its lifetime ingame, through both variants.