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Arguing on the Hamster Wheel


Zimzala
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I am an avid watcher of the online MMO forum based soap opera that I call "As the Hamster Wheel Turns".

A question I have is, "Do people really enjoy arguing in circles over things they cannot change?"

I find is fascinating that so many gamers are wiling to 'die on the hill' over what are completely subjective things, that they have decided are facts.

What do you think?

Is this some kind of 'coming of age' or 'learning experience' in interacting with other gamers?

Is it just personality conflicts that are incapable of having teh empathy to understand other people live life differently with different outlooks?

Do people really enjoy arguing in circles over this stuff?

Do people really enjoy letting the Internet tell them a subjective opinion and taking it as fact that has to be taken into a war of words?

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That's pretty much the internet. You could go to a knitting forum and find two grannies tearing each other apart over what the best brand of yarn is.

It's all just an extension of G.I.F.T (hidden for some profanity)

Spoiler

vPgHNtF.jpg

 

Edited by rapt0rman
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"If you can be anything, why choose to be a jerk?"

The idea of "that's the way it is" is no different than "boys will be boys" IMO, it's a cop-out to not have to act like a mature human.

People do have choices.

21 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Yes. What else are we supposed to do? Be mature and productive?

You have options.

However, you state 'Yes".

So what is it, specifically, that you enjoy about arguing in circles?

The Adrenaline and Dopamine it produces?

Does it make you feel like you 'won' something with a good 'zinger'?

What about arguing in circles is enjoyable to you?

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6 hours ago, Zimzala said:

So what is it, specifically, that you enjoy about arguing in circles?

I wouldn't treat my first response too seriously. 

I don't think I need any profound reason, or a reason at all, for that matter. I enjoy coming here and participating in topics that interest me, even if the discussion leads nowhere or I can't convince anybody of anything. However, there is always that small chance that whatever I post here might change someone's mind or even influence the devs, so I guess that's why I care.

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1 hour ago, Genitive said:

I wouldn't treat my first response too seriously. 

I don't think I need any profound reason, or a reason at all, for that matter. I enjoy coming here and participating in topics that interest me, even if the discussion leads nowhere or I can't convince anybody of anything. However, there is always that small chance that whatever I post here might change someone's mind or even influence the devs, so I guess that's why I care.

Fair enough.

To respond in kind, I wouldn't treat much of anything I post too seriously. 🤣

I think we are on the same page, but I am still referring to the more "endless'' circles I see over ones that go nowhere.

As for changing someone's mind on the Internet, I am afraid I gave up on that long ago, but I can remember the appeal of the idea.

I can agree in that if a topic gets a lot of public attention, that at least can give game runners a clue as to where hot buttons might be, but circular arguments that go on for pages of posts are not going to do that, IME.

I have had to work with a lawyer that talked in circles, because he got paid by the hour, so he could bill more, so I understand there can be reasons.

It's not about needing a reason to do or type anything, it's my curious mind asking questions about why people enjoy circular arguing over a game they cannot change.

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10 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I find is fascinating that so many gamers are wiling to 'die on the hill' over what are completely subjective things, that they have decided are facts.

What do you think?

Is this some kind of 'coming of age' or 'learning experience' in interacting with other gamers?

It's a learning experience for me, none of my schools had a debate club. Specifically when I'm in a room where everyone disagrees with me, learning not to freak out and take things personally is important if I am rejoin the work force.

There are some opinions I brought to the forums more than a year ago that I don't support now. Some of the times I've "died on a hill" were just wishful thinking rather than believing the game should be a certain way.

I don't mind being in the "hamster wheel" as long as I'm sharing it with other players that actually like Warframe.

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The much more common issue I have experienced, both online and interactions with certain people in-person, is the problem of aggressive inertia: when a flaw is pointed out and a solution proposed, it is common practice for certain people to oppose this, usually on the premise that the flaw is too small to be worth correcting, or that implementing the solution would be too much effort. Trouble is, these people are more than willing to spend plentiful resources arguing over the subject, until they quickly end up expending far more energy arguing than they would have had simply fixing the problem, or simply staying in their lane and not arguing at all. This is an issue clearly visible on these forums: it is a basic fact that DE does in fact act on feedback and continues to update the game based on it, as they have since the game's beta stages, yet there is always a small contingent of people who dedicate their time to arguing against feedback and criticism of the game, no matter how legitimate or actionable. This unfortunately ends up corrupting otherwise valuable discussion by turning said discussion into an argument over whether or not the game should change at all, or which among the people arguing is the worse person. Were these people to simply not post, or at least not post in a manner that is purely disruptive to threads, there would be much less circular arguing.

Put another way: if you truly believe that nothing you say or do here will have an impact on the game's development, or anything else at all... why are you still here?

Edited by Teridax68
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

It's a learning experience for me, none of my schools had a debate club. Specifically when I'm in a room where everyone disagrees with me, learning not to freak out and take things personally is important if I am rejoin the work force.

There are some opinions I brought to the forums more than a year ago that I don't support now. Some of the times I've "died on a hill" were just wishful thinking rather than believing the game should be a certain way.

I don't mind being in the "hamster wheel" as long as I'm sharing it with other players that actually like Warframe.

Great thoughts, very cohesive.

I do think this arena is a learning experience for a large number of people and that is one of the reasons I enjoy it.

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The much more common issue I have experienced, both online and interactions with certain people in-person, is the problem of aggressive inertia: when a flaw is pointed out and a solution proposed, it is common practice for certain people to oppose this, usually on the premise that the flaw is too small to be worth correcting, or that implementing the solution would be too much effort. Trouble is, these people are more than willing to spend plentiful resources arguing over the subject, until they quickly end up expending far more energy arguing than they would have had simply fixing the problem, or simply staying in their lane and not arguing at all. This is an issue clearly visible on these forums: it is a basic fact that DE does in fact act on feedback and continues to update the game based on it, as they have since the game's beta stages, yet there is always a small contingent of people who dedicate their time to arguing against feedback and criticism of the game, no matter how legitimate or actionable. This unfortunately ends up corrupting otherwise valuable discussion by turning said discussion into an argument over whether or not the game should change at all, or which among the people arguing is the worse person. Were these people to simply not post, or at least not post in a manner that is purely disruptive to threads, there would be much less circular arguing.

Put another way: if you truly believe that nothing you say or do here will have an impact on the game's development, or anything else at all... why are you still here?

You obviously really believe that the community around WF makes more of a difference in it's development than I do.

After having worked beside game makers and listening to them, I simply don't think that is true in the way you do.

Sure, all this noise has an impact, but that is a far cry from the circular arguments over the minutiae of such changes, good game runners will gain inspiration from the players if something seems to be impacting a large number of them, but IME, that's all. They don't read the forums looking for answers IME.

So, it's not about not having an impact, it's about all these wild designs and ideas that people try and paint DE as not changing because they did not make the exact change the 'Internet consensus" (yah right) yelled about on the forums.

 

Why I am here?

To commiserate with like minded gamers who see these things as ephemeral enjoyment, not some system to be taken apart and judged.

Just because a lot of people delude themselves into thinking the only reason to be on forums is to point out what they think are flaws, does not mean it's true for everyone.

I like talking about how and why we play games, I am not here to just tear down the work of the gaming company in some effort to find flaws, thinking I am some savior/martyr for spending my time 'fixing' someone's game ... I just play the parts I enjoy.

Edited by Zimzala
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On 2021-08-18 at 10:56 AM, rapt0rman said:

That's pretty much the internet. You could go to a knitting forum and find two grannies tearing each other apart over what the best brand of yarn is.

It's all just an extension of G.I.F.T (hidden for some profanity)

  Hide contents

vPgHNtF.jpg

 

I would agree, but say this can also be true in real life, the more comfortable someone is around the people they are talking to, at least. 

The more someone feels they can get away with it, the more they will get obsessed with fandom and weirdly argue for no bloody reason. 

A buddy of mine are both into W40K and have been reading old stuff but also a lot of the Heresy recently, and we once had an hours long, semi-heated argument about Sanguinus (the Primarchs) natural HAIR COLOR. 

And neither of us really wanted to give ground. Humans are stubborn and any time they have decided they are going to take a side, and someone challenges them, it is natural to fight back. It kicks in, I think, our natural instinct to object and protect our territory, so even if we rationally know it is a silly argument, we can find ourselves getting ourselves into awful arguments about petty stuff because our animal brain cares more about the fight itself, in that immediate moment, than what we are actually fighting about. 

And that doesn't even begin to count, the times I was arguing with my brothers when I was young, who I was homeschooled with and close enough to that no matter how far we drift apart, we would never cut off content over an argument, and we could argue and fight for hours about really dumb petty stuff regarding fictional universes like SW. When you know the other person isn't going to cut you off for it, even if not online, oftentimes our brain allows ourselves to get way too carried away caring about nonsense hahaha. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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people -let alone the typical "gamers", usually don't have the balls to speak up their mind on irl situations.
so when they can do it anonymously on the internet, expect them to do so.

personally i'm too old for those stuff.
"winning" an argument doesn't give me satisfaction. and getting myself involved in one doesn't get me excited, you know that feeling when your blood begins to boil, and you whisper quietly "oh imma slaughter this guy. imma type a comment that'll end his whole career!!!". i had plenty those probably 10 years ago, nowadays very rarely.

i don't enjoy it.
and i'm 100% willing to accept that different people have different opinions. members here who had friendly arguments with me will know that well (aside from the few very stupid and stubborn ones who forced me to resort to the ignore button)

 

having an opinion is like having a huge genitals. it's okay to be proud of yours, and to grab hold of it tightly.
but it's not okay when you start shoving it into other people's throats and force them to suck it.

Edited by Soy77
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13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Our dealings go  way beyond that much more recent thread you're linking here, as our exchange there should also indicate.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

That was you? You seemed so much more reasonable back then

It's nice to see a young couple getting along. It's so romantic! /s

Love Boat Smile GIF

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Just now, LillyRaccune said:

I couldn't resist, sorry.

But if either of you feel offended by it, I'll take it down. It was meant to make smiles, not frowns.

I thought it was good! The “ 😋“ at the end was meant to be appreciation of the joke, haha. 
 

🤔 I have noticed that sometimes the emoji shifts a little from device to device. On my screen “😋“ looks like a happy face with a tongue poking out, so it’s all good 👍

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14 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

I couldn't resist, sorry.

But if either of you feel offended by it, I'll take it down. It was meant to make smiles, not frowns.

Does the 😋 look like something other than a happy-face-with-tongue-poking-out? This could throw a large portion of my messages into a new light, since while it looks like one thing on my screen, it may look different on another, prompting me to reconsider my extensive usage of emojis (as they may be conveying the wrong idea)

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12 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

 

@(NSW)Greybones, I am with you on this one, just wow. All this imaginary narrative on how we have some hidden agendas just because we don;t communicate in teh same way as others or that we don't agree with ideas, just wow.

It’s just… Argh. I dunno.

Not great-feeling for anyone involved, I’m sure. I’d hope. I dunno. I think I’m pretty ducked out at the moment. I got out of wanting to hurt others online a while ago, it’s just not worth it (even if frustration runs high at times and it may creep into posts)

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6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s just… Argh. I dunno.

Not great-feeling for anyone involved, I’m sure. I’d hope. I dunno. I think I’m pretty ducked out at the moment. I got out of wanting to hurt others online a while ago, it’s just not worth it (even if frustration runs high at times and it may creep into posts)

When people read every written word with the assumption there is a hidden agenda, there is nothing you can do about that.

Zen philosophy teaches that we all live in our own delusion. We each build our own realities. All you can do is be true to yourself.

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There is someone on these forums that I've argued with many times because we see things very differently, but guess what - that person is the only one in this game I would even remotely call a friend. And I have the utmost respect towards this person. Why? Because even tho others may just see it as pointless argument I see an opportunity to learn, perhaps find a different way of looking at things so for me the exchanges we've had have been more fruitful than just interacting with people who I agree with. I mean if there is nobody to challenge an idea or opinion then there is no way of knowing if there is room for improvement.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Does the 😋 look like something other than a happy-face-with-tongue-poking-out?

It does look like a happy-tongue face. No problems here.

Sometimes emojis don't express all of our complicated expressions. There was a time I had offended someone, they said my idea was "crazy 🙃" (upsidedown smileyface) and I thanked them for the complement, they got upset because they actually meant my idea was crazy-bad not crazy-good. 

It was a different kind of learning experience for me! :crylaugh: As with all communication on the internet (and emojis too), I only speak two languages: English and "bad english"

The Fifth Element Movie GIF

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2 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

It was a different kind of learning experience for me! :crylaugh: As with all communication on the internet (and emojis too), I only speak two languages: English and "bad english"

The Fifth Element Movie GIF

So right there with you....

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2 hours ago, Leyvonne said:

There is someone on these forums that I've argued with many times because we see things very differently, but guess what - that person is the only one in this game I would even remotely call a friend. And I have the utmost respect towards this person. Why? Because even tho others may just see it as pointless argument I see an opportunity to learn, perhaps find a different way of looking at things so for me the exchanges we've had have been more fruitful than just interacting with people who I agree with. I mean if there is nobody to challenge an idea or opinion then there is no way of knowing if there is room for improvement.

Very much agree.

One of my best friends and I could debate any sort of idea and then go get lunch.

This is, IME, the issue with (gaming) forums.

So very many of the people who post think challenging an Idea is a Personal Attack.

Challenging ideas is the only way to find the holes in the logic that need to be filled and to determine it's real world viability, IME.

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4 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

It does look like a happy-tongue face. No problems here.

Sometimes emojis don't express all of our complicated expressions. There was a time I had offended someone, they said my idea was "crazy 🙃" (upsidedown smileyface) and I thanked them for the complement, they got upset because they actually meant my idea was crazy-bad not crazy-good. 

It was a different kind of learning experience for me! :crylaugh: As with all communication on the internet (and emojis too), I only speak two languages: English and "bad english"

The Fifth Element Movie GIF

Cool cool. I probably would have interpreted the upside down face as a compliment as well! The smile is just too friendly-looking

Yeah, complicated nuanced expressions are tough online; it’s why I use emojis a lot since I’m bilingual as well in the singular language of English 😋 (though I’m learning Auslan at the moment).

🤔 This does make me think though. I sort of knew that emojis look a little different (the “🤔”  feels like it looks quite different between phone and computer, one has an inquisitive eyebrow raised, but the other looks a little sad while thinking, as if it’s lamenting something), but hadn’t given it much thought. I’ll be giving more consideration to my emoji usage if I really don’t want my words misunderstood 👍 

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