Yareli Movement & Stat Changes!

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Nobody else in this thread needs to suffer from this clarification.

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Hey, maybe don't insult people? And maybe don't display an inability to synthesize information yourself? I just said in the thread you quoted me back from:

You can't claim that a Warframe's Abilities will be better and scale better when paired together, and that the effectiveness of the ability won't go down if you traded one of the abilities out for a Helminth Infusion. Or that the Subsumed ability will be weaker due to the lack of the synergy.

I hear what you're saying, how if you make them synergistic based on what another Ability provides, then you can use weapons, companions, mods/arcanes or other Infusable Abilities, that can provide these abilities the same bonuses (like Ash's Bladestorm benefiting from ANY invisibility, not just his Smokebomb's Invisibility). I'd just prefer innate scaling on the individual Abilities, without them being explicitly dependent on each other, so that Helminth Infusions don't feel like you're utterly crippling Yareli's already-sad kit. I hate Helminth being an excuse to "fix it yourself if you hate this Ability so much" solution for DE to avoid balancing Abilities, I love the opportunity to craft unique playstyles on Warframes though.

And like. I have also said that I wouldn't mind a bit of both? Meet halfway? You don't have to sound so arrogant and claim I'm missing a ton of stuff, when you seemed to miss what I was saying :V

Can ya stop being condescending :V

.... Yeah? What's your point? I was playing devil's advocate to briefly show what their apparent thought process was. DE clearly wanted to avoid overdoing it with Yareli, and made sure they actively avoided giving her ludicrous scaling mechanics. They went the opposite direction as Saryn (genocide queen with theoretically near-infinite Spore scaling). Now they realized the opposite direction is too far, since they're considering buffing her again. I get this. Why are you framing this as an argument?

WOW the condescension contintinues, and MAN did you just tunnel-vision like heck on that one example. You hated her original kit. However:

I was talking about CURRENT Zephyr :V  you didn't have to go on and on about her original kit, my subtext implied that I wasn't the same fan of her previous iterations. And how is it hard to replace non-synergizing Abilities? Did you mean to say it "isn't difficult", since you're saying you find yourself effortlessly Infusing over Airburst/Ballistic-Battery? If not, something sounds backwards. You talk about getting more synergy from another Helminth ability but that... Just proves my point? I'm not saying explicit Ability-interdependent synergies are bad, they just make it harder to justify customizations to the Warframe via Helminth, as you're losing out on the synergies when you Infuse over one, or when you Subsume it and Infuse it elsewhere. It nerfs the kit or the Subsumed ability.

Again, why are we arguing? It sounds like we're more or less on the same page already, but that you misunderstood me or fabricated arguments where there shouldn't have been any. I've pointed out that Merulina's inability to use Melee, Primary, Infused Abilities, and standard Warframe Mobility are all massive downsides to using Merulina, and so it's extra obnoxious that her DR is arbitrarily capped below other comparable DRs. Her SeaSnares being capped at 15 instances hanging out on the map (aside from already-Snared enemies) and still-will-be-kinda-low range on her Riptide and still-really-low-range Aquablades don't CC enemies enough unless you make an infinite supply of energy via pads or Zenurik or Arcane Energize or Energy Generator or Sharpshooter etc, so the DR of Merulina is feeling kinda mandatory to utilize. After all, it's DR for as long as Merulina lasts, which is longer than Yareli will last even with the DR boost.

You're right, and as myself and others have commented, Yareli's survival rate/ease feels really poor if you don't replace Merulina with another DR solution, and replacing anything but Merulina sucks since you can't cast them from Merulina (again, why are we arguing???)

You're right, if they don't fix Yareli so that Infusions aren't universally a "poisoned apple" on her, she should have straight-up buffs and synergies, which again, I've said I'd agree with. Why are we arguing?? Oh yeah, you implied I suck at data synthesis and made arguments where there was mostly already agreement :V I just want her individual abilities to scale better on their own, without being dependent on other abilities, which you already implied you agree with via your old-Zephyr arguments. She can additionally have some slightly better internal synergies, ideally not exclusively ability-dependent, but rather ability-enabling, such as faster movement making faster Aquablades, which would make it fun on any other fast-Frames, or by replacing Yareli's Merulina with something like Infested Mobility, or even Saryn's Molt, etc.

You're the one picking arguments :V don't assume I haven't built Grendel and gotten immediately annoyed at how dependent his other abilities are on his 1. I was happy AF when Nidus got other stack-building options with his Larva buffs and augment.

 

This was a really long way of saying "I don't know why the heck you're trying to turn tons of dialogue into explicit arguments when they're mostly just exploring what's happening and what probably should happen", basically :V

We can have a productive conversation exploring the specific nuances of the game, and the nuances of each other's views, without being condescending or argumentative. If you loved synergy, and I value abilities being useful by their own merit, we should politely agree to disagree. If we're in agreement on things in general, just clarify anywhere that you disagree, without being rude. If I misunderstood or missed something entirely, you can just re-clarify what was missed, you don't have to take personal offense and then cause offense in turn. Being rude will only get people's hackles up, and if we want to get DE to make any changes to the game, we need to have a more unified voice, not a fractured one. Being combative doesn't help anyone. Gets threads locked, or 90% of a useful discussion removed because of the 10% that was rude.

I stand by what I said. If DE makes her substantial mechanical buffs (which she NEEDS far more than mere number-tweaks) more synergy-based, then it ruins her kit as soon as one of the synergy-providing Abilities is Helminth-Infused over, and the same goes for Aquablades when Infused on another Warframe that lacks Yareli's other Abilities to give it synergy. Numerical buffs are appreciated, as would synergy-additions (ideally not explicitly Ability-dependent, but rather just opportunities/traits that her other Abilities can provide, as other sources could), but I personally fundamentally want Yareli's Abilities to perform and scale better individually more than anything.

 

Funny that after all of this, the conclusion is that you find it condescending that I should respond back to you, and "fight" about finishing ideas and tangents that would otherwise spiral out.  So we are clear, that is the point of finishing ideas...and you believing that this is condescending is projection.  If you deserved no respect, and your ideas had no merit, then the response would have been a terse no.  Not a response with nuance...and definitely not one where I'm still chuckling because the long response was that I was correct...but you cannot simply state that.  I have to be a flavor of wrong...no matter how much contortion is required.

 

Rounding out the rest of this, you started by stating that synergies weren't a possibility because they'd lead to base powers being weakened.  Your current response is that they're needed...but the Helminth removing these would damage the synergies by potentially removing them.  This is balanced against aquablade being her subsumed ability somehow not synergizing with other frames...all while remembering that airburst is what Zephyr offered...because you decided to open that can of worms.

 

So we are clear, none of this violates TOS...and your accusations that I'm "combative" and not bringing useful discussion is interesting.  The 90-10% thing is funny...because I've yet to state anything but amusement at double standards, and reinforce my feedback that synergistic powers need no debuff.  It's almost like I have an opposing opinion...that you both disagree with and agree with.  Forcing a resolution to that is entirely within reason...unless of course we do agree and your initial retort should be amended.  I will let you in on a secret though.  Come in real close.

I take no umbrage with you.  I take no umbrage with those that think Yareli is fine.  The umbrage to be taken here is that your inability to make a cogent argument is damaging the argument you are making.  Why would I care about that?  Well, if you can't make a clear argument then DE will do whatever they wish, and have justification from the player base to do it?  Universal medallions not universal, yep.  DE justified that with a single tweet.  So...let's not even consider what could be justified here with a dichotomy of stated goals and methodology.  If I was feeling froggy I could use your response to reasonably state that players believe that Yareli's kit is just fine.  I could also select sections of this, and state that players believe that aquablades needs nerfs, due to potentially unbalanced synergies.  Worst of all, all of these would take no effort.  It's that kind of failure in clarity that allows DE to justify anything by "player feedback" that is concerning.

Let me put this clearly one last time.  If you believe that synergies cannot exist without nerfs, you are wrong.  If you believe that synergies lost because a warframe getting a subsumed ability doesn't have the other abilities which support the synergy you are wrong.  If your aspire to have it both ways...I cannot see a middle ground but am open to being proven wrong.  What is intolerable is trying to take all stances at once, and allowing DE to produce another Grendel.  Before the Grendel mains get angry, let me explain.  The feedback to DE was mixed.  The meatball was cool...but the frame was utterly busted because the energy drain was too high.  By the time you ate enough enemies to make the meatball damaging you'd dissipate your energy bar seconds into a good run.  The feedback they took was to slightly decrease the energy cost...while keeping the scaling factor directly tied to enemies eaten.  Combine that with a frame where all abilities are tied to the first...and you've got issues because the synergy you balanced for is unusable.  Yareli is in a similar place.  If we cannot articulate that, and instead simply suggest that she both needs more and we cannot have a fundamental shift, then what exactly can be done?  Nothing.  DE can claim to follow community feedback, tweak numbers, and outdate the outrage.  That's what unclear, inconsistent, or otherwise contradictory feedback offers.  Perhaps now you understand why someone would press for consistency...or not. 

 

 

 

---this isn't a response to the quotation, but is an extension of the response to this thread as a whole---

Whatever.  It doesn't even matter anymore.  DE doesn't do anything but quell these threads of things they consider off topic.  The feedback is never taken...but because they exist it's fine to say they are listening to players.  Well DE, let me end this with my feedback.  Xaku was underdone, and needed another month in the oven.  Yareli is rawer than Xaku.  Maybe the next frame will be better...but it's nearly 2/3rds of the way through 2021.  Sevagoth was a push-back from 2020.  Yareli is new.  That's 2 frames this year.  3 frames last year...and what looks to be 3 this year.  Maybe with this extra month per frame release we can get some polish?  After almost a decade it seems like every subsequent release is less balanced.  Yareli is in the golden zone of being too weak, with underwhelming powers, and having a passive that is great but not possible to consistently realize.  That's a lot of fail.

[RobRalneR]

A good start, but not enough.

Merulina needs better survivability than a simple 75% dmg reduction and an unscalable health pool. This is basically a worse Warding Halo (Nezha's 3rd ability). Why bother adding dmg reduction and health pool on Merulina that doesn't scale is beyond me.

Sea Snares and Aquablades' buff sounds nice.

Riptide, however, it's the only ability I helminthed off, because all it does is group enemies, does damage but throws and scatters them away. Not to mention it doesn't synergize with any of her abilities except casting while on the move while on Merulina.

IMO, she needs more tweaks and more synergy. Here's how I would make Yareli more usable:

Make Merulina scale like Nezha's Warding Halo and keep 75% dmg reduction but make it scale up to 90% with strength mods.

Make Sea Snares seek out a new target if the existing one dies, if the duration didn't ran out.

Make Sea Snares add a dmg vulnerability to cold damage. Power Strength increases the percentage. This also encourages people to add cold as a damage stat on their weapons to deal more damage. Combine it with her passive and you'll deal good amount of damage on your foes.

Enemies who've been given dmg vulnerability to cold damage from Sea Snares take additional damage from Riptide and all enemies that were caught from Riptide are given cold procs.

Aquablades size can be increased until it reaches a set cap (200% range). This is to make Aquablades have decreased deadzone, allowing enemies near Yareli, like less than 1 meter, also take damage instead of only a couple of meters.

I'm sure someone has better ideas, but those changes I posted would satisfy my needs and would make Yareli for me more fun to play.

[EdinaMonsoon]

is it possible to add a little noise when her aquablades deactivate? there's just so much going on in the game at any time that you kinda don't realise her blades have stopped

[Maryph]

Il y a 15 heures, Cappucchino a dit :

I don't know if it is still like what I experience before or not about Aquablades. But, the hit will only registered when having a contact with the blades themselves, increasing the range will increase the gap of enemies in melee range not get hit even more?

Let's just hope they increase the hit RADIUS of the blades and not the max orbiting distance
Either way, it would be a a lot more simple for everyone if range could be modded...

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

5 hours ago, quxier said:

 

ps. I think we could use 1 button for rolls and turning sprint on/off. It's just easier/better to have separate keys, imho.

 

For console players the analog stick-click controls sprint good enough, but I can understand wanting more hotkey-able options for PC players.

Also if they added a roll wouldn't it just use the crouch botton like bullet jumping? 🤔.

[BionicFreak]

I wonder when you guys (DE) will finally figure out that it isn't her ability STATS that are making people not want to play as her, it's the ABILITIES themselves.

Her 1 and 4 are useless (while it is common for a warframe's 1st ability to suck, it is very uncommon for the 4th "Ultimate" to be entirely useless).

Merulina is very lacking, we can't even mod it. I figured this was something accidentally left out.... but then months passed and no change.

Yareli's abilities should be built around her exalted K-drive. 

Her passive shouldn't require the player to always be moving. 

She should receive certain buffs while riding Merulina, like no knockback, quicker reloads, improved accuracy, etc.

Players should be given an incentive to ride Merulina at all times, the above statements should be a good way to go about doing that. 

[quxier]

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

For console players the analog stick-click controls sprint good enough, but I can understand wanting more hotkey-able options for PC players.

Also if they added a roll wouldn't it just use the crouch botton like bullet jumping? 🤔.

They said:

On 2021-08-19 at 9:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

(tap Roll/Dash)

so it should be button for rolling not bullet jumping.

ps. I get your confusion as it looks like Bullet jumping not rolling/dashing.

3 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

Make Merulina scale like Nezha's Warding Halo and keep 75% dmg reduction but make it scale up to 90% with strength mods.

If it would behave as rolls (get effects from rolls & its mods) then they wouldn't do it. You could put Rolling guard and just use rolling damage reduction to get (probably) near 100% damage reduction. Of course rolling that way wouldn't be fun (it looks like bullet jump...) but that's the way it is -> good stuffs is used in clunky way (e.g. Exodia contagion or Vial rush & others that stuffs that turns of your sprint).

[Grav_Starstrider]

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Funny that after all of this, the conclusion is that you find it condescending that I should respond back to you, and "fight" about finishing ideas and tangents that would otherwise spiral out.  So we are clear, that is the point of finishing ideas...and you believing that this is condescending is projection.  If you deserved no respect, and your ideas had no merit, then the response would have been a terse no.  Not a response with nuance...and definitely not one where I'm still chuckling because the long response was that I was correct...but you cannot simply state that.  I have to be a flavor of wrong...no matter how much contortion is required.

What can I say except geez dude, you're coming back at me with more text than I put in every single time, upping the ante, and you say I'm the one who has to contort things with a ridiculously long response?? Declaring that you're chuckling at people, saying that you find people's responses funny, saying someone can't synthesize information, that's condescension, not me projecting condescension. If you can't see that, I don't think I can help you, and don't think further discussion with you is worth the aggravation and irritation.
Saying you said some things that were in isolation correct, but that seemed to clash with your other declared opinions, is not me insisting that you were wrong even though you were right. It's that you were right about some things, but that I didn't think they supported the conclusion you were drawing from them. But sure, make it me vs you, rather than us refining our ideas and coming to an understanding.

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Rounding out the rest of this, you started by stating that synergies weren't a possibility because they'd lead to base powers being weakened.  Your current response is that they're needed...but the Helminth removing these would damage the synergies by potentially removing them.  This is balanced against aquablade being her subsumed ability somehow not synergizing with other frames...all while remembering that airburst is what Zephyr offered...because you decided to open that can of worms.

Aquablade isn't the worst Helminth ability, but it certainly isn't the best or one that particularly scales well beyond starchart. It could use good baseline scaling that isn't dependent on Ability synergies that would only be available on Yareli. And Yareli's other abilities would be better served by having them individually being good, not good exclusively due to synergies, so that it's viable to Infuse over any of the abilities, dependent on the build you are crafting for her.
Don't spin Zephyr back around at me, MULTIPLE times now, I've stated that I find Zephyr is genuinely interesting to use the Helminth system on because there's no longer any explicitly dependent synergies (that I'm aware of, anyways). I like a good ranged Airburst build, ironically it'd theoretically even be good on Yareli with its augment, paired with Yareli's passive. Zephyr's original or previous states have nothing to do with Yareli except as an example of what they shouldn't do, which is to make a bunch of forced, ability-dependent synergies that make the abilities marginally more useful, at the expense of requiring multiple abilities to be cast. Same reason DE removed Spore-turret Molt.
If that's what you meant, you should really lose the "chuckles" attitude, it won't make people more likely to read your responses with a level head, when you could just clarify. Without the attitude.

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So we are clear, none of this violates TOS...and your accusations that I'm "combative" and not bringing useful discussion is interesting.  The 90-10% thing is funny...because I've yet to state anything but amusement at double standards, and reinforce my feedback that synergistic powers need no debuff.  It's almost like I have an opposing opinion...that you both disagree with and agree with.  Forcing a resolution to that is entirely within reason...unless of course we do agree and your initial retort should be amended.  I will let you in on a secret though.  Come in real close.

I take no umbrage with you.  I take no umbrage with those that think Yareli is fine.  The umbrage to be taken here is that your inability to make a cogent argument is damaging the argument you are making.  Why would I care about that?  Well, if you can't make a clear argument then DE will do whatever they wish, and have justification from the player base to do it?  Universal medallions not universal, yep.  DE justified that with a single tweet.  So...let's not even consider what could be justified here with a dichotomy of stated goals and methodology.  If I was feeling froggy I could use your response to reasonably state that players believe that Yareli's kit is just fine.  I could also select sections of this, and state that players believe that aquablades needs nerfs, due to potentially unbalanced synergies.  Worst of all, all of these would take no effort.  It's that kind of failure in clarity that allows DE to justify anything by "player feedback" that is concerning.

Wow, way to threaten people with taking things out of context, and claim my argument is the one that's inconsistent, without actually clarifying the bit I pointed out didn't make sense with your argument. You seem to be arguing in bad faith, so yeah, not gonna respond to any further messages from you.

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me put this clearly one last time.

Condescension again. Nice.

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

If you believe that synergies cannot exist without nerfs, you are wrong.  If you believe that synergies lost because a warframe getting a subsumed ability doesn't have the other abilities which support the synergy you are wrong.

And amazingly, after that condescension, you're wrong again.
An ability lacking it's synergy-giving companions (such as Breach Surge without the tactical benefit of being able to teleport to the Reservoirs you can't cast) is weaker/less-worth-casting than it is on the original Warframe (ditto if the synergy-giver has been removed on the original Warframe in exchange for a Helminth Infusion). This would be acceptable if it turned a god-tier ability into a still-really-useful-and-competitive ability (whether the Subsume offering, or a Warframe's other ability when the synergy-provider is overwritten with an Infusion), but it's not acceptable if it's turned into lame barely-Starchart-fodder abilities because of the missing synergies. You're right, Aquablade isn't currently synergy-dependent, or synergy-benefited at all really. But adding synergy-dependent buffs wouldn't make it more worth using on other Warframes, and would only hurt Yareli if it made an ability "off-limites" to Infuse over because it became a synergy-capstone ability (like how Nezha's Chakram and Divine Spears is an amazing pairing, making either feel like silly options to replace). They (clearly, at this rate,) won't make Yareli OP with any of their adjustments to her, so making her buffs be rooted in synergies will just enforce a synergy-ability-combo-dependent playstyle on her. And if they make the wrong ability the capstone ability, without fixing people's problems with it, people will be upset because even with Helminth, they wouldn't be able to fix her. Which is why - 

4 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

What is intolerable is trying to take all stances at once, and allowing DE to produce another Grendel.  Before the Grendel mains get angry, let me explain.  The feedback to DE was mixed.  The meatball was cool...but the frame was utterly busted because the energy drain was too high.  By the time you ate enough enemies to make the meatball damaging you'd dissipate your energy bar seconds into a good run.  The feedback they took was to slightly decrease the energy cost...while keeping the scaling factor directly tied to enemies eaten.  Combine that with a frame where all abilities are tied to the first...and you've got issues because the synergy you balanced for is unusable.  Yareli is in a similar place.  If we cannot articulate that, and instead simply suggest that she both needs more and we cannot have a fundamental shift, then what exactly can be done?  Nothing.  DE can claim to follow community feedback, tweak numbers, and outdate the outrage.  That's what unclear, inconsistent, or otherwise contradictory feedback offers.  Perhaps now you understand why someone would press for consistency...or not. 

I'm pushing for DE to buff/update her abilities to perform better individually, first and foremost. I've been consistent about that. I want them to individually scale well, and be good at what they're supposed to be good at. Synergy comes second to me, and it should be with things that can be offered by other abilities, mods, weapons, etc, which I believe we were all in agreement on, as opposed to things being DEPENDENT on each other, rather than merely indirectly augmented. ESPECIALLY because of things like your examples of early Zephyr, or Grendel, or my example of pre-Larva-update Nidus.

I want consistently good Abilities, not synergy-dependent, inconsistently-performing Abilities. I'm okay with a little bit of synergistic flair and convenience, like Nezha's teleport-explosion with Firewalker and his Chakram, doing a spot of damage in an AoE and making a fire-ring that Nezha could've just walked himself. I love it, but I find the Divine Spears almost feels too much, makes it feel like it's a waste to not use if you have the energy for both, as it multiplies the effectiveness and all but guarantees the energy refund. Kinda wish Divine Spears or Chakram were independently more capable of dealing out more damage. I don't wanna see that same kind of almost-forced synergy (FOMO on efficiency/potency?) on Yareli.

I've made my stance clear for DE, I want baseline effectiveness on her abilities first. A little bit of Synergy is find, and would make some fun combos. But ideally it's mostly baseline functionality buffs (NOT just number boosts), and if they add any synergy, I'd want something like that recommendation for speed-related rate-of-tics for Aquablades, so that other speedy builds can benefit from it as well.

But yeah, either we're just so thoroughly mismatching or misunderstanding each other, or tbh it kinda sounds like you're arguing in bad faith or intentionally twisting my words and refusing to simply have a respectful dialogue while pinning the blame on me, so cya either way.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Kinda wish Divine Spears or Chakram were independently more capable of dealing out more damage. I don't wanna see that same kind of almost-forced synergy (FOMO on efficiency/potency?) on Yareli.

One is an AoE CC with good base range and duration, the other is a soft CC and 100% damage amp affecting up to 6 enemies per cast. Both of them are very capable abilities in their own right, comparable to Rhino's Roar and Stop even without their synergies. If Yareli's abilities were to be buffed to the same level of "independently less capable" as these, with added synergies on top, then Yareli's kit would be in a good place. All in all, it just sounds to me like you're severely undervaluing abilities just because part of their benefits lie in synergies.

[master_of_destiny]

46 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

What can I say except geez dude, you're coming back at me with more text than I put in every single time, upping the ante, and you say I'm the one who has to contort things with a ridiculously long response?? Declaring that you're chuckling at people, saying that you find people's responses funny, saying someone can't synthesize information, that's condescension, not me projecting condescension. If you can't see that, I don't think I can help you, and don't think further discussion with you is worth the aggravation and irritation.
Saying you said some things that were in isolation correct, but that seemed to clash with your other declared opinions, is not me insisting that you were wrong even though you were right. It's that you were right about some things, but that I didn't think they supported the conclusion you were drawing from them. But sure, make it me vs you, rather than us refining our ideas and coming to an understanding.

Aquablade isn't the worst Helminth ability, but it certainly isn't the best or one that particularly scales well beyond starchart. It could use good baseline scaling that isn't dependent on Ability synergies that would only be available on Yareli. And Yareli's other abilities would be better served by having them individually being good, not good exclusively due to synergies, so that it's viable to Infuse over any of the abilities, dependent on the build you are crafting for her.
Don't spin Zephyr back around at me, MULTIPLE times now, I've stated that I find Zephyr is genuinely interesting to use the Helminth system on because there's no longer any explicitly dependent synergies (that I'm aware of, anyways). I like a good ranged Airburst build, ironically it'd theoretically even be good on Yareli with its augment, paired with Yareli's passive. Zephyr's original or previous states have nothing to do with Yareli except as an example of what they shouldn't do, which is to make a bunch of forced, ability-dependent synergies that make the abilities marginally more useful, at the expense of requiring multiple abilities to be cast. Same reason DE removed Spore-turret Molt.
If that's what you meant, you should really lose the "chuckles" attitude, it won't make people more likely to read your responses with a level head, when you could just clarify. Without the attitude.

Wow, way to threaten people with taking things out of context, and claim my argument is the one that's inconsistent, without actually clarifying the bit I pointed out didn't make sense with your argument. You seem to be arguing in bad faith, so yeah, not gonna respond to any further messages from you.

Condescension again. Nice.

And amazingly, after that condescension, you're wrong again.
An ability lacking it's synergy-giving companions (such as Breach Surge without the tactical benefit of being able to teleport to the Reservoirs you can't cast) is weaker/less-worth-casting than it is on the original Warframe (ditto if the synergy-giver has been removed on the original Warframe in exchange for a Helminth Infusion). This would be acceptable if it turned a god-tier ability into a still-really-useful-and-competitive ability (whether the Subsume offering, or a Warframe's other ability when the synergy-provider is overwritten with an Infusion), but it's not acceptable if it's turned into lame barely-Starchart-fodder abilities because of the missing synergies. You're right, Aquablade isn't currently synergy-dependent, or synergy-benefited at all really. But adding synergy-dependent buffs wouldn't make it more worth using on other Warframes, and would only hurt Yareli if it made an ability "off-limites" to Infuse over because it became a synergy-capstone ability (like how Nezha's Chakram and Divine Spears is an amazing pairing, making either feel like silly options to replace). They (clearly, at this rate,) won't make Yareli OP with any of their adjustments to her, so making her buffs be rooted in synergies will just enforce a synergy-ability-combo-dependent playstyle on her. And if they make the wrong ability the capstone ability, without fixing people's problems with it, people will be upset because even with Helminth, they wouldn't be able to fix her. Which is why - 

I'm pushing for DE to buff/update her abilities to perform better individually, first and foremost. I've been consistent about that. I want them to individually scale well, and be good at what they're supposed to be good at. Synergy comes second to me, and it should be with things that can be offered by other abilities, mods, weapons, etc, which I believe we were all in agreement on, as opposed to things being DEPENDENT on each other, rather than merely indirectly augmented. ESPECIALLY because of things like your examples of early Zephyr, or Grendel, or my example of pre-Larva-update Nidus.

I want consistently good Abilities, not synergy-dependent, inconsistently-performing Abilities. I'm okay with a little bit of synergistic flair and convenience, like Nezha's teleport-explosion with Firewalker and his Chakram, doing a spot of damage in an AoE and making a fire-ring that Nezha could've just walked himself. I love it, but I find the Divine Spears almost feels too much, makes it feel like it's a waste to not use if you have the energy for both, as it multiplies the effectiveness and all but guarantees the energy refund. Kinda wish Divine Spears or Chakram were independently more capable of dealing out more damage. I don't wanna see that same kind of almost-forced synergy (FOMO on efficiency/potency?) on Yareli.

I've made my stance clear for DE, I want baseline effectiveness on her abilities first. A little bit of Synergy is find, and would make some fun combos. But ideally it's mostly baseline functionality buffs (NOT just number boosts), and if they add any synergy, I'd want something like that recommendation for speed-related rate-of-tics for Aquablades, so that other speedy builds can benefit from it as well.

But yeah, either we're just so thoroughly mismatching or misunderstanding each other, or tbh it kinda sounds like you're arguing in bad faith or intentionally twisting my words and refusing to simply have a respectful dialogue while pinning the blame on me, so cya either way.

 

So...again...wow.  

 

This is a discussion thread about Yareli.  You've come here, and are now demonstrating that your belief is that everybody who questions you is either condescending, patronizing, or otherwise bending the laws of physics to "write an answer longer than you wrote back" despite demonstrably being able to look at them and see this is...not true.

 

 

Let me short change this.  Your initial quotation of two people with the same argument, stating one is bad and one is good, needed to end there.  There was an invitation to either find some introspection, and understand that your point was wrong, or to double down.  What happened instead was contorting reality to say that you'd always meant for Yareli to have synergistic powers...because reasons.

 

 

I...all of these pauses are to allow you to understand that I'm choosing these statements carefully since you seem to be incapable of separating your point from your hate of me.  To that end, maybe this is a situation where you can stop the train for just a moment, and refocus on the thing at hand.  That would be Yareli.  It would be those who state flatly that the synergies potential with her moveset will not damage the game.  It's then the response back that...you know I cannot even begin to determine a single logical thread to your entire argument.  I can see the emotional need for me to be wrong, the emotional response that you believe someone stating inconsistencies in your point is somehow personal criticism, and I can even see the emotional response that trying to take the high road is simply condescension from someone who "knows better."  That said, I've literally never done any of that...and you continue to accuse me of it.

 

 

Let me truly be condescending to close this out.  Then you're welcome to whatever petty interpretation is required to make me the bad guy (condescension one, out of frustration that you simply need me to be evil).  Your stated point is idiotic (condescension point two, frustration with inability to maintain a point and the desire to rewrite history to make this accurate).  At no point in time are DE obliged to nerf abilities already in the game, to make the synergistic abilities work in a balanced manner.  Your statement at the jump is both stripped of relevance by later being revised to this self same logic (by you), and within the same response quoting two people with the same retort but finding two different responses (condescension point three, an inability to understand two versions of the same idea packaged slightly differently as the same).

To explain my frustration, let me explain to you why people look at responses like this, and call people stupid (condescension four, implication of stupidity by proxy to an argument).  In WoW it was unthinkable for a debuff to happen when people did a bunch of grinding.  This debuff effectively was basically a 25% decrease from baseline xp earnings...meaning people would "only be earning 75%.  How did Blizzard get around this?  Well, a 33% buff to xp earnings for being well rested.  That sounds odd...but let me explain that the initial baseline was decreased by 25%.  This means that you have the same thing happening (a maximum xp earning of 75% of the previous rate), but by calling it a 33% buff rather than a 25% debuff people viewed it positively.  The problem, the endgame was the same.  WoW penalized heavy grinders.

If it isn't clear (not condescension, by virtue of multiple instances of selective interpretation leading to a requirement to lay out points with no room for interpretation), you started our discourse out with this exact fallacy.  I'd continue to explain, but the endgame is your inconsistency in argument and inability to articulate a clear idea damages people who are asking for Yareli to be buffed in a non-trivial numbers way.  Despite this, you continue.

 

 

Now, I await your frustration.  I await your bending of my good will, into something akin to hate speech.  I don't even need to have an opposing point, but I still need to be wrong that Yareli can have synergies...because.  I mean, it's not like the whole ask here was simply for you to sit down, write a cogent response, and have a consistent point.  I mean, I could have asked for that multiple times...and had this simple ask swatted away.  The root of this entire discussion was about asking for consistency so DE couldn't selectively interpret feedback with no internal consistency to mean anything.

 

 

(Fact check: 754 words (barring this check).  Response to retort of: 1011.  Reality seems to be easy to verify.  It's also fun that I should be threatening...despite never making a threat...if you disagree please use the tool at the top, and report me for threats.  Those violate ToS.  Noting that you'd have to cite one...)

 

-Ooh, just a few more words.  Bump the counter to 808.  Stop changing the goals and contorting things.  This is not a discussion about aquablades.  It was a discussion about synergies...which you decided to change.  It's obviously condescending of me to keep you on topic though...because internal honesty is unfair to ask for.

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Her 1 3 4 should apply and deal Corrosive, here 4 could deal a %EHP amount of damage, its damage scaling on how many enemies it pulls in.

here 1 4 could also pause or extend Status proc durations on hit enemies. 

 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

Her 1 3 4 should apply and deal Corrosive, here 4 could deal a %EHP amount of damage, its damage scaling on how many enemies it pulls in.

here 1 4 could also pause or extend Status proc durations on hit enemies. 

-Yareli's 3 is pretty worthless. it doesnt do enough damage. or have any flare/effect 

it shouldnt be effected by duration at all, or her 4th. her 3 should always last 30 seconds, but recasting, turns it on/off

3, tap to have it circle you, hold cast to summon it in a position that it stays. enemies hit are stunned/slashed hit with corrosive procs. 

her 4 could have a charge/hold, tapping would last 2-4 seconds, and holding would charge pulling in enemies longer. 

 

As for Merulina, it kinda needs more control indoors, it could have its own mod pool for k-drive mods.

While Yareli is on it, her reload speed/damage for pistols could be increased, or given infinite ammo for whatever pistols equipped.

endless ammo for any pistol while on her merulina, would be kind of interesting, and could be cool with a knell.

 

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

They said:

so it should be button for rolling not bullet jumping.

ps. I get your confusion as it looks like Bullet jumping not rolling/dashing.

 

K so first I totally thought you meant you wanted a "sideways roll" that is to say a roll that moves you left/right with its own botton lul.

Second the roll/crouch botton + jump botton is a bullet jump on console for me it is so... It will in a sense be the "bullet jump botton" at least part of the botton combo anyways.

Ps. I think [DE] combined a bullet jump with Yareli's hugging Merulina animation for this "dash/roll"

 

[quxier]

32 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

Second the roll/crouch botton + jump botton is a bullet jump on console for me it is so... It will in a sense be the "bullet jump botton" at least part of the botton combo anyways.

Oh, on pc on default, afair, you have

- ctr => crouch / slide (while moving)

- shift => roll/sprint

- ctrl + space bullet jump

I don't even know if it's possible to have one button doing rolls & crouch on PC. So here were my confusion.

[Kitty1709]

Please DE I've already reported this. Fix not being able to cast abilities while Merulina is active unless you use the annoying ass ability menu on controller. This is STILL a problem on switch and probably still on PC and other forms. The ability menu is weird to use on controller for some and just cycling over to do one press casting is less strenuous on the hands. There's still SO many bugs involved with this girl it's not funny. Don't focus on new war without FIXING your already prevalent mishaps

[PublikDomain]

21 hours ago, Azimbee said:

You know what's funny? I encountered a bug a while ago with Merulina that let me bullet jump and dodge roll while on it. It retained the physics of slippery k-drive. I could not for the life of me reproduce the bug because it only happened once clientside in a group on deimos but I really wish I could have: It was a ton of fun to have that much air control over Merulina. Eventually the bug broke and I was stuck, ending the fun.

Speaking of bugs,

There's some way to get primaries to work on Merulina. This really needs to be a feature for it and K-Drives in general, and the only thing missing is the idle animation.

[Grav_Starstrider]

5 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

All in all, it just sounds to me like you're severely undervaluing abilities just because part of their benefits lie in synergies.

I mean.... Rightfully so, when it comes to the Helminth system, and also avoiding old-Zephyr problems of lame forced synergies, which has been brought up?

If Ability A gets boosts from a synergy with Ability B, then Infusing something over Ability B is going to nerf Ability A. Ability A would also be nerfed by being Infused onto a Warframe that lacks Ability B.

If Ability A is designed with synergies in mind, gaining effectiveness from B, Ability A's effectiveness is... Going to be designed with the assumption that Ability B will be boosting it during higher end gameplay (whatever DE's ability designers define that as), meaning it'll be innately designed to be weaker in isolation. Whereas if Ability A was designed without intent to have it synergistically boosted by Ability B, Ability A is more likely to perform better on it's own than it was going to if it was designed to be used in tandem with Ability B (but Ability B went un-used or overwritten or absent).

I'll repeat my thoughts on Yareli's ability's weaknesses again.

I wouldn't mind if DE fixed Yareli's Sea Snares partially by synergy additions, by having snared enemies be sucked up by Riptide no matter where they were, or from an arbitrary multiplier of Riptide's modded effective radius, as long as they also fixed the fundamental problems with SeaSnares crashing into walls like crazy, and doing nothing else on their own other than weak, number-limited CC. Right now I nearly see it as a direct analogue to Harrow's Condemn, but way worse. Harrow sees synergy with the regained shields fueling one of his other abilities, increasing his survivability directly, and locking down potentially large quantities of enemies. Yareli's ability is a bit of a sidegrade or downgrade, as it can nearly guarantee 5 caught enemies per cast, but caps at that, and is often catching far below that, as their post-cast seeking range is pitiful, and any casts after enemies have been Snared seem to ignore those enemies if their current Snare times out and they aren't newly arriving in the post-cast seeking range, and any seeking is often foiled by any obstacles, and the damage output is so pitiful it may as well not exist past the startchart levels, and their duration when not triggering against a foe, and their cap of 15 un-triggered Snares, radically limits their viability as a "trap" or reliable CC. These problems would not be fixed by simple Synergistic fixes. Each of these has an obvious fix: make them not do that. In order to be effective traps, they can't destroy themselves on terrain, whether that's limiting their seeking to LoS, making them bypass terrain, or making them slide across terrain, and they have to last longer before un-spent snares expire, and have better post-cast seek range. I'd personally like to see the number limit bumped to 20, so that by the time you're casting a fourth time, your first and second casts have had a few seconds to find enemies, wasting/destroying fewer unspent bubbles. I'd also like to see them actually proc Cold procs.

Merulina can't equip K-Drive mods to customize the K-Drive experience she offers...... Locks us out of Helminth Infusions.... Locks us out of Primary and Melee weaponry... Locks us out of the more precise, accurate, and easily-controlled standard Warframe mobility... And provides worse DR than a ton of other Frame's DR options.
There are easy answers. Allow K-Drive Modding, make a few standard/universal "K-drive-casting" animations (just a couple 1-handed and 2-handed multi-purpose animations can't be hard, a ton of Warframes already have simple arms-forward or arms-up casting animations for half of their abilities), if making K-drive-Primary animations for everything is too hard, let Merulina and Yareli Wall-Cling together, and aim-glide in parallel, so new animations for every weapon type don't need to be made, make a simple burst-effect on melee-button-usage (bonus points if this does extra damage to Snared enemies, and temporarily flares Aquablades out at a larger radius). Make Merulina's handling more responsive when in gun-modes, and let Ability Strength modding bump DR to the standard caps of 90% given by several other DRs.

Aquablades could have several really fun synergies with other abilities, but especially because it's a Helminth ability and I'd prefer to see any synergies be given to her other 3 abilities, I'd prefer if it had level-based scaling, and for Range mods to at least affect the individual blade's sizes, even if not the baseline range of the ability, and to take other's suggestions of speed buffing the rotation rate of the blades as a fun interactive element, and anti-AFK incentive matching her Passive's gimmick.

Making Riptide do better at clustering enemies and doing damage is good. Adding a Synergy with SeaSnares by sucking all of the snared enemies into the Riptide from even further away, would be the one obvious synergy that I am amazed wasn't on her kit already. Riptide doesn't allow Yareli to shoot the clustered enemies until they're already getting up and scattering again, Riptide should at least do a few procs of cold. And/or let Yareli shoot while casting Riptide.

There are a lot of these changes that I can't imagine takes too absurdly long to implement. More numerical fixes to Sea Snares by increasing the post-cast seek range, the pre-Snaring duration of the floating bubbles, and allowing more to be simultaneously active, and adding cold procs should be really easy. Making Merulina's DR moddable, and reducing her sliding/ improving her handling, should be easy, as should allowing one-handed ability casts from Merulina at the very least/minimum. Aquablades should be able to accept a numerical damage tweak to scale with levels easily, as well as a speed-based scaling, even if capped at a certain max speed (so that Razorwing Blitz and Mach-Rush don't become meta pairings with it). Riptide should be able to be easily tweaked to do cold procs, and to suck in enemies from farther away if they're currently SeaSnared.

Again, I'm honestly flabbergasted that these kinds of fixes weren't part of her base kit by default, let alone that DE is delaying adding these kinds of fixes to them.

A few synergies wouldn't be bad, but the abilities should be worth using on their own.

[master_of_destiny]

57 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

....

Again, I'm honestly flabbergasted that these kinds of fixes weren't part of her base kit by default, let alone that DE is delaying adding these kinds of fixes to them.

A few synergies wouldn't be bad, but the abilities should be worth using on their own.

 

On 2021-08-20 at 10:49 PM, Grav_Starstrider said:

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

 

So...let me frame this discussion.  

 

What do you think DE should do?  I've quoted the two statements above.  It should offer clarity.

1) Should DE simply increase values?  Well, no.

2) Should DE introduce synergies?  Well, no.

3) Should Yareli somehow have a synergy with powers, that is lost if subsumed?  You quote Zephyr...so no.  Funny then that Sevagoth's Gloom exists...but ignore that.  Also funny that no other frames are considered.  I mean:

Atlas - If petrify is subsumed you lose the synergy with landslide...and do not get access to rubble

Chroma - Elemental ward cannot cycle...and is locked to energy color after being subsumed on a frame

Ember - As there is no immolation meter, fireblast is locked to base armor strip

Equinox - No dual forms...so power locked to energy colors

Gara - Spectrorage loses synergy with splinter storm

Gauss - Thermal sunder is largely interlinked with the battery mechanic...so yeah...

(This requires three more rows of frames...so I'm done.  If the point isn't clear...then maybe it never will be.)

 

 

What is the option that remains?  I ask this because there has to be a win condition here.  There has to be a demand which can be satisfied, because if there is not this is not feedback.  It's nihilism.  If you've got a solution offer it.  If you want to tell us that there is none...then why engage?  

 

Let me ask a simpler question.  What synergy do you believe would be both inconsequential enough to have per the former (but quoted first) statement to be acceptable, which does not violate your opposition to synergy from the later (but recent) quotation?  Is there anything inside this magical zone?  If there is, share.  If not, then stop and consider.  This should have been a basic thought process, because if you walk into a discussion without win conditions you'll never make progress.  Despite this...I see nothing in multiple pages.  I also see contradiction is multiple pre-existing systems.  Square the circle...because Yareli having lost synergies like the much more popular Gauss is...not something that looks to be a problem.

[SECURATYYY]

Her 4 should be a toggle. Push 4 to make bubble, push 4 to explode bubble.

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

7 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

14 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

All in all, it just sounds to me like you're severely undervaluing abilities just because part of their benefits lie in synergies.

I mean.... Rightfully so, (...) A few synergies wouldn't be bad, but the abilities should be worth using on their own.

In short, synergies like the ones between Nezha's Chakram and Spears, and between Wisp's Breach Surge and Will-o-Wisp and Reservoirs, are fine, because those abilities are all worth using on their own.

Some synergies for Yareli, DE pls.

[Grav_Starstrider]

4 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

In short, synergies like the ones between Nezha's Chakram and Spears, and between Wisp's Breach Surge and Will-o-Wisp and Reservoirs, are fine, because those abilities are all worth using on their own.

Some synergies for Yareli, DE pls.

As long as they also, first and foremost, fix them to be worth using on their own ;) yup

[quxier]

8 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

I mean.... Rightfully so, when it comes to the Helminth system, and also avoiding old-Zephyr problems of lame forced synergies, which has been brought up?

If Ability A gets boosts from a synergy with Ability B, then Infusing something over Ability B is going to nerf Ability A. Ability A would also be nerfed by being Infused onto a Warframe that lacks Ability B.

If Ability A is designed with synergies in mind, gaining effectiveness from B, Ability A's effectiveness is... Going to be designed with the assumption that Ability B will be boosting it during higher end gameplay (whatever DE's ability designers define that as), meaning it'll be innately designed to be weaker in isolation. Whereas if Ability A was designed without intent to have it synergistically boosted by Ability B, Ability A is more likely to perform better on it's own than it was going to if it was designed to be used in tandem with Ability B (but Ability B went un-used or overwritten or absent).

It's not always black and white. Changing abilities won't necessary make another ability worse. However in practice it's harder. There are some abilities that "don't work correctly with infused abilities". Things like (talking about infused abilities):

- Xaku & Vast untime doesn't stop time

- Cannot cast abilities on Merulina; I may be wrong but Grendel/Ball is the same

- Yareli/Aquablade, Hydroid/Barrage won't trigger void proc from Xata's whisper

Imagine Yareli riding on Merulina with Aquablade & Xata's whisper on. Even with small range you are "disarming" enemies.

Or imagine Merulining and blasting (Ember's) enemies around.

Or imagine Xaku stoping Saryn's molt giving your near infinite speed boost.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

26 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

As long as they also, first and foremost, fix them to be worth using on their own ;) yup

Oh, definitely. If we compare Yareli's abilities to some similar ones (1. Condemn/Spellbind, 2. Warding Halo, 3. Haven/Elemental Ward(Heat), 4. Ensnare/Larva/Vortex/Magnetize) and ignore any synergies that those abilities might have, Yareli's abilities still come out as incredibly underwhelming. Like, how do you manage to make a 4 so bad that it gets severely outclassed by at least three similar 2's??

 

5 minutes ago, quxier said:

Or imagine Xaku stoping Saryn's molt giving your near infinite speed boost.

Stop, I can only get so aroused.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh, on pc on default, afair, you have

- ctr => crouch / slide (while moving)

- shift => roll/sprint

- ctrl + space bullet jump

I don't even know if it's possible to have one button doing rolls & crouch on PC. So here were my confusion.

Ahh. After reading our past posts things are starting to add up.. I went in game to check my botton layout an well-

-LB => crouch,slide,and roll 

-Left analog => sprint

-The "A"button=> jump 

So now it starts to make some sense now. Although I still think Yareli would benefit from having the ability to shift to a more manageable movement, for indoor tilesets in the way of tapping the Merulina ability while [ riding/mounted-on Merulina it self ] as I suggested in my original post. 😁👍

[Grav_Starstrider]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not always black and white. Changing abilities won't necessary make another ability worse. However in practice it's harder. There are some abilities that "don't work correctly with infused abilities". Things like (talking about infused abilities):

- Xaku & Vast untime doesn't stop time

- Cannot cast abilities on Merulina; I may be wrong but Grendel/Ball is the same

- Yareli/Aquablade, Hydroid/Barrage won't trigger void proc from Xata's whisper

Imagine Yareli riding on Merulina with Aquablade & Xata's whisper on. Even with small range you are "disarming" enemies.

Or imagine Merulining and blasting (Ember's) enemies around.

Or imagine Xaku stoping Saryn's molt giving your near infinite speed boost.

True, I'm just speaking towards the trend, such as you're presenting here, where abilities explicitly lack synergies they should when paired with other Warframe's abilities, or when they're weaker because they're lacking their original synergy-provider. On the other hand, it's arguably good for some Helminth Infusions to be weaker on other Frames, as Breach Surge would honestly be wild on other Warframes if it also provided it's Reservoir-dependent teleport and range-doubling synergies, it's really super stellar on Wisp, but balanced by the restrictions of Reservoirs being stationary, and her 4 being so-so. That really only would apply to Yareli if her Subsumed ability was ridiculously good on her due to synergies, and okay on other Warframes without it.... It's neither got the synergies, nor is it ridiculously good, and none of her other abilities feel like they're any good or synergistic either XD

6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Oh, definitely. If we compare Yareli's abilities to some similar ones (1. Condemn/Spellbind, 2. Warding Halo, 3. Haven/Elemental Ward(Heat), 4. Ensnare/Larva/Vortex/Magnetize) and ignore any synergies that those abilities might have, Yareli's abilities still come out as incredibly underwhelming. Like, how do you manage to make a 4 so bad that it gets severely outclassed by at least three similar 2's??

Yeah, exactly! Even ignoring the additional synergies and functionalities on the comparable abilities, and the augments available for them, they still in isolation feel like vastly superior options to Yareli's equivalents. And none of those comparables for 1, 2, or 3 are really the host Warframe's stand-out abilities that everyone loses their minds over (as much as I love some of them), so if Yareli's 1, 2, and 3 are clearly not stand-out abilities, her 4 should be better than several of its comparables, not substantially worse-feeling/performing. Not that I need even just one of her abilities to be the undisputed best at doing something in the game, but there should be a playstyle with her that's reasonably effective, with all of her abilities having a useful purpose, and being worth the energy to cast when that purpose needs to be fulfilled. I'd settle for each of her abilities feeling like they were halfway comparable to each of those comparisons, for her to feel like a sidegrade to other options, rather than consistently feeling like every ability is a downgrade of other abilities.

6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Stop, I can only get so aroused.

same 👌