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Yareli Movement & Stat Changes!


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18 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

I'd settle for each of her abilities feeling like they were halfway comparable to each of those comparisons, for her to feel like a sidegrade to other options, rather than consistently feeling like every ability is a downgrade of other abilities.

So much this. Not every frame/ability can be the best, but as I said in another thread about some other frame, I just don't want to feel like I'm playing a bootleg version of Frame X. In Yareli's case, she feels like a broken bootleg, what with her lacking some of the most basic, standard things like:

  • Sea Snares CCing in an AoE rather than a set number of enemies.
  • Merulina's damage reduction being moddable up to 95%.
  • Merulina having a damage absorption period.
  • Riptide having a duration so we can shoot at the enemies we gather.

Would these things be enough to fix Yareli? No. But it'd at least make her feel like she wasn't released three months too early in development. Like... time and time again, I find myself screaming the same question into the ether:

Why does so many bits of her abilities have an allergy to being moddable?!

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3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Why does so many bits of her abilities have an allergy to being moddable?!

I will say, I'm glad that range doesn't affect Aquablades.  As it stands right now there's this awkward little sort of hole right in the middle where standard-sized bipedal enemies can stand without getting shredded.  If ability range affected the ability, they might shift out or in and I wouldn't want that.  The mentioned size increase makes me a bit leery because that'll just make the hole even bigger if the blades are the same.  Presumably, it could also theoretically reduce the DPS in that situation because the time to complete a full orbit would be increased if the speed isn't adjusted to match.  If it changed the size of the blades without affecting the circumference, that'd be great, but I wouldn't get my hopes up on that.

Yareli is in a sort of unique position right now because she can make use of dump stats to a degree that I feel hasn't really been seen in years; DE went to great lengths to make most everything useful on new(er) frames, and the stat shifts a complicated juggle.

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35 minutes ago, garbenzine said:

Yareli is in a sort of unique position right now because she can make use of dump stats to a degree that I feel hasn't really been seen in years; DE went to great lengths to make most everything useful on new(er) frames, and the stat shifts a complicated juggle.

What would you dump on her though?  As resistant as she is to modding, you need duration, strength, and range if you want to do anything with her flaccid kit.

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Can Merulina also have the board slam mechanic (tap + hold grind on default)? considering said move came with the update alongside Yareli but doesn't even work on the so called original inspiration of K-drive that is Merulina

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3 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

What would you dump on her though?  As resistant as she is to modding, you need duration, strength, and range if you want to do anything with her flaccid kit.

Efficiency and range are both out the window(though neither are completely rock-bottom).  I'm running 200% duration and just over 300% strength, along with Growing Power snapshots.

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So this is one of those things that has kinda baffled me. Why does Merulina DR stop at 75% It should be at least 90%? It locks you into a certain style of game play Secondaries only you cant even use thrown melee's whats the point? Why not open that to primaries as well? You cant share it with others like Gara's Splinter Storm or Nezha's Warding Halo with Safeguard. Worse yet it just doesn't work the majority of the  helmenth system. Even worse a lot of other warframe abilities don't even affect Merulina in any significant way. 90% wouldn't make her busted in the slightest she doesnt have the base stats and the 90% would make her feel so much better. The changes to her abilities sound great and are a definite step in the right direction but this is the one that really just blew my mind when I started playing her in the first place Honestly I think 95% wouldn't be over powered. Im all ears on this, maby Im just blind or something but I really thought she should at least cap at 90% even before I found out her MANY many drawbacks. I want to like the frame I realy do. I get making the helminth system work with her would be hard but this feels like a no brainier.

I really hope someone reads this because its one of the few times ive felt compelled to get on the forums.

Also I actually enjoy Merulina. Its fun to K drive around in other missions. It just needs to be way better itself. I dont mind gun framing its actually my favorite way to play which is why I was so confused when I got the frame. (Already put 7 forma in her to run her in steel path.)

TLDR

1. Merulina should give 90%-95% Damage Reduction (75% isnt enough)

2. Merulina should let you use Primaries (Why limit it to secondaries if I cant duel wield it with a thrown melee?)

Edited by Mirror_Reflection
TLDR and corrections
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10 hours ago, garbenzine said:

Efficiency and range are both out the window(though neither are completely rock-bottom).  I'm running 200% duration and just over 300% strength, along with Growing Power snapshots.

Why would you build Duration on Yareli? Only two abilities in her kit have a duration, and one of them is more than plenty at base.

Why would you build Strength on Yareli? The lack of scaling means it will be a waste once enemies start going up in level, and high HP on Merulina only means you will die first.

Why would you build Range on Yareli? Only half her abilities are affected by it, and neither of those can make good use of it due to collision and fixed pull speed.

Why would you build Efficiency on Yareli? Sure, it allows you to cast a lot, but her abilities aren't really worth casting.

Why would you Yareli? 

Edited by Perfectly_Framed_Waifu
A word.
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Il y a 11 heures, Xsoskeleton a dit :

Can Merulina also have the board slam mechanic (tap + hold grind on default)? considering said move came with the update alongside Yareli but doesn't even work on the so called original inspiration of K-drive that is Merulina

You can, you have to double tap (and hold the second one).

 

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The numerical adjustments sound interesting, and I’m excited about the improvements to mobility while on Merulina.

Please consider giving the mobility improvements to all K-Drives, and not just to Merulina.

Please also allow us to mod Merulina like any other K-Drive. Right now, Merulina is strictly worse than every other K-Drive because they can all equip mods and she cannot. Many of the K-Drive mods would make much more sense on Merulina than they do on other K-Drives. In particular, the K-Drive mods which inflict damage are largely irrelevant since the damage they do is small and there is no way to amplify it, but if we could put them on Merulina and their damage would then be multiplied by Yareli’s power strength, they might see some use.

At the very least, please communicate to the community 1) if you are planning to make Merulina moddable, and 2) why or why not, and what technical issues prevent her from being moddable.

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Le 19/08/2021 à 21:57, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Sea Snares:
-Increase seek speed by about 60% and slightly increase bubble visibility to better register your casts. 

This does not fix the ability being near useless as a CC. Its way too single target, I think making the bubbles CCing everyone in a certain range near the hit target would make it good or at least somewhat viable as a CC. As of now its expensive and garbage because it only effects a max of 5 enemies per cast, meanwhile something like excalibur's radial blind stuns everything near him for less energy.

 

Le 19/08/2021 à 21:57, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Aquablades:
-Increase range by just about 25%
-Increase damage and duration by 50%

This simply needs scaling. Set damage is OK in early game but as soon as you hit like lvl 60 its effectiveness drops hard.

 

Le 19/08/2021 à 21:57, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

RipTide:
Bigger is better. The bigger we Rip, the more enemies, the better scaling, and so on!
-Increase radius by 25%

Despite what everyone else thinks, I find riptide to be decent. Sure its not oneshotting everything at lvl 120+ anymore but it does way more than all the other 3 abilities she has.
However i do think that it should get some sort of second scaling stat to make it a bit more viable. Something like armor stripping and/or scaling with enemy count+max hp.

 

And i feel like Merulina should give a wee bit of (SCALABLE WITH POWER STRENGTH) strength to her other abilities. Like an extra additive 50% strength as base. I dont feel like thats OP since with my build that is somewhat strength focused i already have 200% strength. So with Merulina's 50 X 200% = 100% on top of the 200% is only 300% power strength. Its not completely broken since you cant cast subsumed abilities on Merulina anyway so it will only effect stuff like riptide or aquablades.
It gives a bit more of a reason to use merulina besides the Damage Reduction that it gives. Movement is fine, you get used to it. I feel like people would realise that if they had a reason to play yareli for more than 5 minutes then never use her again.

All in All, Yareli needs way more than just stat buffs. Her entire foundation needs to be changed for her to be a worthwhile frame. I actually enjoy using yareli and merulina but its clear as day why anyone that cares even a little bit about endgame simply has an incredibly hard time justifying using Yareli.

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On 2021-08-19 at 3:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yareli improvements are incoming, Tenno! You’ve been patiently waiting for word on what changes will come to our latest Warframe, and this Dev Workshop covers our current plans for her kit. Read on!

The changes are nice. Something you might want to look at that occurred to me a while back was being able to slot K-drive mods on Merulina. For trick stunting, things like increased air time, magnetic rail attraction and boosted grind speed make it fun to do stunts on K-drive.

If the concern is too much might make K-drives obsolete, what about having some version of these abilities as custom powers unique to Merulina? That way, you can use the standard weapon/warframe leveling system to level up Merulina's boosted performance abilities.

Edited by Kitsushadow
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So, Aquablades has that hole in the middle that makes increasing the range kind of awkward. 

But, what if the blades could oscillate between a close range and a farther, possibly modded range? Maybe being controlled by pushing the ability button again, doing a trick or maybe a dodge. 

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Am 19.8.2021 um 22:11 schrieb (NSW)Lucifer-Morningst4r:

That won’t do anything because if you proc slash from the 3rd having a proc from her fourth will only serve to reset the proc and 2nd you don’t lose the proc from the 3rd until it expires

I think you misunderstood my intention, i meant a slash proc but with the explosion's and therefore higher and to some extend scaling damage as base damage of the slash proc. Which means you would have like 10k base damage or more depending on build and amount of enemies.

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Sadly this doesn't fixes the core problems with her abilities, still no scalling on aqua blades, still no better chasing AI in her Sea Snares and still no extra duration in her Riptide.
you can buff her stats to 1000% and still probably won't work right

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The biggest improvement to her damage output here just makes her better Helminth fodder.

Don't get me wrong, her aqua blades could use more damage, but she's got no _real_ scaling mechanics, which is precisely why putting aqua blades on a frame with a way to amp damage, or strip armor, or _something_ tends to make the ability way, way more impressive than it is on Yareli.

You also keep nerfing any secondary that is even remotely competitive with primaries and melee, and notably you keep nerfing their AoE. With no scaling built into the frame, and her passive and 2 shoehorning her into using her secondary, you've pushed her into a specialization that basically means she has to use sub par weapons to make her frame abilities do damage. That pretty much murders her viability in say, the Steel Path, where you're putting all the new goodies these days.

Her 1 could be a pretty decent CC ability, but last I checked it still had problems with pathing. Maybe her 4 could be good for dealing with large groups now, but I really just don't see the damage being high enough, even with this buff. At least not when you're fighting enemies with EHP in the millions.

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7 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

 

You also keep nerfing any secondary that is even remotely competitive with primaries and melee, and notably you keep nerfing their AoE. With no scaling built into the frame, and her passive and 2 shoehorning her into using her secondary, you've pushed her into a specialization that basically means she has to use sub par weapons to make her frame abilities do damage. That pretty much murders her viability in say, the Steel Path, where you're putting all the new goodies these days.

 

This is why I worry that Yareli is always going to be dumpster-tier.  Sure, I'll try out the changes to her kit when they land.  Regardless of how much of an impact they have, I'm sure I'll still use her for the "Get 20 Kills While Riding a K Drive" NW challenge.  But I don't see her becoming a good choice for use on Steel Path, sister/lich hunting, RJ, or anything else high level.

 

Teshin tells us that we should take advantage of our full arsenal when tackling the Steel Path, but Yareli's kit forces her to forego three of our most powerful tools: primaries, melee, and mobility.

 

I don't think DE is going to invest what's needed to fix her, though I could be wrong.  My personal theory as to why Yareli is even in the game is the sunk cost (fallacy) of k drives.  DE wanted to get more use out of all the work/resources that went into making k drives after being disappointed with how few players actually choose to engage with the system.  So we get Yareli as a k drive frame.

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On 2021-08-19 at 2:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Utility Changes: We are introducing a foundational change to Yareli’s movement: Merulina Dashing (tap Roll/Dash)! 
 

 

This looks really nice actually. The new jump functionality should help in a variety of areas. This is probably the biggest positive of this whole workshop. However, One big problem with Merulina that I don't believe has been addressed yet is knocking yourself off the Board when using self-stagger explosive weapons. It really shouldn't do that, and I hope the reasons for this are obvious.

 

On 2021-08-19 at 2:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Aquablades:
-Increase range by just about 25%
-Increase damage and duration by 50%

This is really where the problems with this workshop start. This ability didn't just need a "damage up 50%." That doesn't address the problem.

This ability needs scaling.

There really isn't any reason why Warframes made in Summer 2021 shouldn't be able to scale into veteran-relevant content, like Steel Path for example. If your damage doesn't scale, people write it off as dealing no damage. Which actually is fair, considering that is essentially what is happening in late game content.

I really don't understand why the damage scaling scheme introduced with the Vauban rework has been so grossly underutilized. For those of you who are unfamiliar, here is the formula:

Photon Strike: Total Explosion Damage = Blast Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Passive Damage Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier

Flechette Orb: Total Puncture Damage = Puncture Base Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Passive Damage Bonus) × (1 + Overdriver Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier

Obviously for other Warframes, damage from Vauban's passive would not factor in. But using this formula could potentially be a breakthrough in Warframe damage scaling design. Yet repeatedly, we see Warframes like Yareli created with abilities that are given flat values like the pitiful 500 damage currently dealt by Aquablades. Though I suppose now it will be 750 damage? Do you see why that doesn't really make a difference?

 

On 2021-08-19 at 2:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

RipTide:
Bigger is better. The bigger we Rip, the more enemies, the better scaling, and so on!
-Increase radius by 25%

Okay, but this ability still slings enemies away from its center at the end instead of grouping them together the way you would want a group-up CC ability to function. And the group up CC is essentially going to be what this is useful for. So that needs to happen for this to really fit usefully into this kit.

 

On 2021-08-19 at 2:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Sea Snares:
-Increase seek speed by about 60% and slightly increase bubble visibility to better register your casts.

What would really be nice is if this maybe had an armor strip associated with it. That way maybe the 4 can actually do damage. Is it still not understood that some form of armor mitigation is absolutely necessary to do damage in Warframe? It's either that or fix the still-broken armor scaling in this game.

 

Anyways, in summary these number changes are fine. But this whole workshop is still lacking the essentials. That is, the mechanical and scaling changes that are needed for any of this to matter in late game.

Edited by (PSN)Jedi_Arts_
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24 minutes ago, (PSN)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Photon Strike: Total Explosion Damage = Blast Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Passive Damage Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier

Flechette Orb: Total Puncture Damage = Puncture Base Damage × (1 + Ability Strength) × (1 + Passive Damage Bonus) × (1 + Overdriver Bonus) × Enemy Level Multiplier

DE fired their mathematician. Further proof:

Warding Halo: Modified Health = (Base Health + Armor Multiplier x (Health Conversion Armor + Nezha's Base Armor x (1 + Armor Bonus)) + Absorbed Damage x Absorption Multiplier) x (1 + Ability Strength)

Merulina: Modified Health = Base Health x Ability Strength

Splinter Storm: Modified Damage Reduction = Base Damage Reduction x Ability Strength

Merulina: Modified Damage Reduction = Base Damage Reduction

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You know, I think I’m starting to get how Yareli’s supposed to be balanced.

Like, you know how Inaros has the highest HP in the game, but to compensate his abilities lack synergy and aren’t the greatest compared to other frames at what they’re supposed to do?

Well, Yareli has quite arguably the best passive in the game, so maybe her abilities lack synergy and aren’t the greatest to compensate. I think people overly discount her ability to easily 2 shot SP enemies with a forma’d kitgun.

And similar to the devour of Grendel, another frame with a gimmick and big numbers, one of her abilities is niche but situationally powerful. Merulina’s actually kind of good in Orb Vallis SP, I’ve been using it to farm toroids at The Temple against lvl 130 dudes to some success. Make it less game-breakingly buggy and a bit easier to manoeuvre indoors and it might even be legitimate in more missions. That's why the best part of the update for me is the new merulina roll.

Also, all three of them have a dumb movement ability that’s atleast as much a meme as it is useful. All three movement abilities also preclude the use of subsumed abilities when activated too, it’s just more noticeable on Yareli because Merulina is a bigger part of her kit than either meatball and sandstorm. 

Maybe the problem is that people keep seeing her a some kind of nuking caster, when she’s really the next iteration of unga-bunga don’t-die frame, this time with fatter damage numbers and a little less overall survivability.

Edited by (PSN)aarott
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These changes look sick (in the cool way)! It took me much Forma, but I finally found an Equilibrium + Primed Flow + Qthinking shield build I really like. Paired with a Viral Quills and Synth Deconstruct+Fiber Panzer vulpaphyla I easily get enough health orbs to keep her powered and alive for wave after wave, minute after minute. She's great at speed running Spy missions (and can cheese some Corpus tiles by hovering over floor lasers) and obviously Open Worlds, but also any mission type where you may be going a considerable distance if you can handle K-drive mechanics. These changes will just make navigating and maneuvering regular tiles all the easier, while giving interesting new dodging options against bosses and open world enemies. I'll probably stick with replacing the 3 with Rebuild Shields, that can be cast during the Merulina dismount invulnerability period before hopping back on when under fire.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

You know, I think I’m starting to get how Yareli’s supposed to be balanced.

Like, you know how Inaros has the highest HP in the game, but to compensate his abilities lack synergy and aren’t the greatest compared to other frames at what they’re supposed to do?

Well, Yareli has quite arguably the best passive in the game, so maybe her abilities lack synergy and aren’t the greatest to compensate. I think people overly discount her ability to easily 2 shot SP enemies with a forma’d kitgun.

And similar to the devour of Grendel, another frame with a gimmick and big numbers, one of her abilities is niche but situationally powerful. Merulina’s actually kind of good in Orb Vallis SP, I’ve been using it to farm toroids at The Temple against lvl 130 dudes to some success. Make it less game-breakingly buggy and a bit easier to manoeuvre indoors and it might even be legitimate in more missions. That's why the best part of the update for me is the new merulina roll.

Also, all three of them have a dumb movement ability that’s atleast as much a meme as it is useful. All three movement abilities also preclude the use of subsumed abilities when activated too, it’s just more noticeable on Yareli because Merulina is a bigger part of her kit than either meatball and sandstorm. 

Maybe the problem is that people keep seeing her a some kind of nuking caster, when she’s really the next iteration of unga-bunga don’t-die frame, this time with fatter damage numbers and a little less overall survivability.

Ah yes, and Hydroid is balanced because he's got a loot mod. That also excuses the rest of his awful kit. Now let me tell you why the Stug is a great gun just because it's got innate Corrosive damage...

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Il y a 5 heures, (PSN)aarott a dit :

 

Like, you know how Inaros has the highest HP in the game, but to compensate his abilities lack synergy and aren’t the greatest compared to other frames at what they’re supposed to do?

 

That's also why practically everyone wanted Inaros's abilities to be redone or touched a bit when it's prime came out
It's a useless frame, only HP, nothing else
And it's the same for Yareli, only passive, nothing else (even it's passive can be outmached by Harrow's 4 and it's actually a great frame to play)
People don't ask for nuke frames, Sevagoth don't have any nuking capacity, just tankiness and splendid CC and everyone is liking it.

Yareli can't CC, can't nuke, can't tank. And if her passive is the only thing worth using then just go play something else, you have better alternatives out there.

They didn't thought her design the way you think, they just did her because they had to, that's it, that's why the warframe is useless and will stay that way until they decide to properly redo her abilities to be worth using together in one build while also being usable alone.
they didi that for Protea, Lavos, Sevagoth... What the #*!% happened with Yareli ?

Plus, that's not like they're left without clues on how to improve her, the community here has typed some great ideas on how to make her viable.
Yes it takes time to dev, but if they did things right the first time, with only little downsides (Likle Protea's turrets when it came out), things would have been easier for them.
Now some people paid real money for something useless or that can be outmatched by any other frame in the game.

Edited by Maryph
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