Yareli Movement & Stat Changes!

[Grav_Starstrider]

1 hour ago, SprinKah said:

how come? She's pretty damn interesting on her own, the abilities and what not, it's just that she's not the highest dps dealing warframe out there which really doesn't matter that much, since Warframe is pretty damn easy on its own, even the weakest warframe can do serious work. If people like her design, theme, fashion and stuff like that, they will play her, which is really all that matters. 

My problem is that Yareli doesn't feel like she remotely approaches being the best at a specific flavor of Damage, CC, Mobility, Grouping, or any other sorta utilities, among the Warframe roster. Even if she's not the best at any one thing, she should at least feel like she's competing as a Jack-of-all-trades, but right now by having Merulina restricting her ability to use Helminth Infusions, locking her out of Primary and Melee, and not having K-Drive mods applied to it, her Signature ability feels super bogus, especially when its DR doesn't feel like it compares to Nezha's Warding Halo, imo. And that's not starting to touch the problems with Aquablades, that DE can't decide on whether it's a damage or CC ability, and has it being bad at both, and her SeaSnares that break on every possible surface and barely seeks out enemies after the initial cast, and her 4 that feels like a vastly inferior Vortex/Larva.

Oh, here's another thought that'd make SeaSnares a smidge more competitive. Make each time a SeaSnare snares an enemy, cause a "splash" effect, catching any other nearby enemies in a Snare as well. Then it'd have similar utility to Khora's Ensnare, where each instance innately has it's own chance to catch multiple enemies (even if in Yareli's case, they don't bundle up together).

[Grav_Starstrider]

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

[PorpitaPorpita]

I hope at some point there's a round of bug fixes as well! Convergence bubbles don't spawn on Merulina, which makes passive focus gain pretty hard ☹️

[MotherofHermes]

But these are just number changes and dont effect survivability or ability interaction at all. Most of the stuff we've been complaining about is still there. 

The problem with raw numbers is that they either fit at low levels or fit at high levels. At this rate you are just making another world on fire ability. 

Merulina still won't work with any mods other than strength for raw numbers or efficiency. Gara and Mesa are already in the game so why are we capping at 70% with an over shield that doesn't scale? 

Why does merulina not clear negative status?

Why doesn't galvanized crosshairs work on merulina? Energizing shot also doesn't work. 

Has anyone tested this frame on steel path solo with devhacks off? 

 

[MotherofHermes]

Another question. What do you see as the response for when you have taken health damage while riding merulina. She has no way to recover defenses while locked into her secondary. Other defensive frames like rhino, nezha, or inaros have answers to "I've taken damage now what?" 

[MotherofHermes]

On 2021-08-19 at 2:13 PM, Fairmoon said:

awesome, now if only there was an easier way (other than Platinum) of getting her, I'm not good at snowboarding/skateboarding games and I'm stuck on page 4 of Waverrider, I am unable to do any of the grinding or anything to get a combo up to 1500 pts and previous pages were only scored by just launching off highest tower in Fortuna and doing tricks on the way down. Yareli looks like a lot of fun but until I either invest in the platinum to buy her I'm unable to complete the Waverider quest

 

There are mods you can get with vent kids standing that increase the max combo you can get as well as the stacking multiplier as well as some for double jump/jump height, grind sticking, etc. The frames main gimmick is kdrive, so expecting you to interact with the system/faction isn't too far fetched. If you still struggle you may want to switch your controller scheme temporarily to assist. I don't have too much more to offer in terms of advice. 

 

[Darkumineru]

On 2021-08-19 at 9:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Sea Snares:
-Increase seek speed by about 60% and slightly increase bubble visibility to better register your casts. 

Aquablades:
-Increase range by just about 25%
-Increase damage and duration by 50%
 

RipTide:
Bigger is better. The bigger we Rip, the more enemies, the better scaling, and so on!
-Increase radius by 25%

YES something! 
i think dea snares are and still will be just meh but good to see a QoL for it

Aqua blades... still dog S#&$ i use 200% strength and she was underwhelming with them so this will not change it

RipTide... so we are fine with the fact its not able to dmg grinner at all? or do u think now she can go from hitting 20enemys and deal like 5k to each instead now hitting 30 enemys for like 5.8k? like the dmg is not great still has volt is better for the hole per target give more dmg but VOLT GETS full stun on everyone effected Protea with turret well its heat dmg so great it can kill! like not the best but with larva it great at it,  like she needs it to deal dmg or to be like a larva or she is going to only maybe (MAYBE) now be use for farming to send enemys to khora (but problem not has we have mag if we want that pick to be questioned and still nova is better for it)

like i love how she is to move with but if she is literally a meh cc first's ability and 200% crit chance for secondary's (and only secondarys...) is she going to be getter then any other frame or be useful no she will only be a k-drive and sure i may use it every now and then is low level corpus and only there and still that was something that volt did and still will do better (and hay volt can kill up to like normal level grinner)

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

Synergies help expand what a Warframe is capable of. And since these buffs aren’t going to do enough to make Yareli reliably good the best thing would be to add synergize that either greatly improve these abilities performances or provide something that’ll indirectly help the abilities.

And as for your argument regarding subsuming abilities. The helminth system is not an excuse for DE to not improve frames.

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, MotherofHermes said:

Has anyone tested this frame on steel path solo with devhacks off? 

I actually leveled her in Steel Path, but I removed Merulina and used Gloom. Survival missions work well for her, since she can bottleneck fairly well, buuuut there is zero reason to play her over Vauban or Protea that can do the same 100 times better and safer.

I pretty much just found a spot, had gloom active and then spammed her #4 as needed while moving the character back and forth constantly to keep the passive secondary crit up. Then I got tired of the whole need to move to get the passive crit, so I just equipped my Kuva Zarr and wiped things out. So in the end I stood in a corner with gloom active alternating her #4 and shots from the Kzarr, with a few glaive throws tossed in to get/keep the dex arcane buff up. I then realized that Yareli brings nothing that I cant get from any other frame already.

[sunderthefirmament]

11 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

This is important to bring up, but I think there are differences between synergies and dependencies, though the lines between them can get murky.  I wrote about it here, but basically good synergies reward using the abilities together while still letting the abilities function well enough on their own.  Harrow's kit doesn't have any forced synergies (dependencies) in it, but all of his abilities lend themselves well to each other.  You need the shields from his 1 to power your 2, your 4 can protect you while you are weakened by your 2, and your 3 fuels everything.  Compare that to Sevagoth's 1 and 2.  I never use the 1 unless I've just used the 2, or the 2 is still in effect and I can't recast it yet.

 

I think if done properly, synergies would help Yareli a lot.  Beyond the synergies I mentioned, there's also the idea of a cohesive kit that makes sense to use together.  Yareli's kit is focused on CC and standing still so your blades can repeatedly damage enemies... yet her passive rewards movement, movement she could get from her 2, but her 2 feels terrible to use in its current state.  She's lacking synergies and cohesiveness.

[(XBOX)N7 Sinner]

Buff her stats as much as you want, DE; that does not change the fact that Yareli is still going to be an unfavorable frame to play to a [significant] portion of your playerbase. So long as Merulina remains an integral part of her kit and her abilities continue to lack any form of synergy or cohesion, she will never be worth putting my time into.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

On 2021-08-20 at 6:55 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

I think they are going to let Gloom go too long instead of pre-nerfing it because they don't want to throw too much cold water on the excitement for a recently released frame

Meanwhile, Yareli.

[master_of_destiny]

12 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

 

Just...no.

 

In your theoretical example the synergy has been balanced for, and the components have been nerfed so that they are only viable when together.  This is bad design, but it's not how synergies should work.  If you'd like a dead simple example, let's talk patty-cake with a pair of Equinoxes.  The nuke ability Equinox has is charged, so its strength is balanced against the difficulty in charging it up.  Great.  Players then determined that if you have two running, you can basically have a near constant nuke.  One feeds the other's charge.  This was presumably not intended, but emergent gameplay in response to ESO.

 

Now, why is Equinox not on the chopping block, and why do people still believe her nuke is good?  Well, that's because the synergy of the ability is difficult to maintain and requires effort.  The effort is rewarded, and despite allowing for a rolling nuke this synergy is still alive and well in the game.

 

 

What you are implying is that DE will be unable to install some kind of mechanical limiter to fix a power synergy...which is kind of nuts.  Sevagoth gets auto self-revive...but it comes at the cost of having to go into his other form and kill some enemies.  Grendel can self buff to the moon, but has a huge energy drain and must eat enemies.  Let's imagine a situation where Yareli doesn't suck.  Increase the range, and add slash to her aqua cutter.  To balance this out, make the velocity of the blades dependent upon her speed.  This gives additional power, but synergizes with Merulina because zipping around the level would effectively make them an impenetrable wall.  The trade-off for the synergy is having to be constantly moving, circle strafing, and demonstrating skill to maintain that damage wall.  It wouldn't be a nerf to the current power, because even now the blades aren't effective after a certain number of hits...so staying in one place is not viable.

What about her snares?  Well, let's imagine that the snares would seek out any instance of her 4 within a set distance.  They would then be sucked in at great velocity to the casting instance.  This leaves the snares still functional as CC, and doesn't make her 4 too powerful.  It simply means that you get a bit more scaling damage, under the auspices of having to herd enemies.  That's a synergy of powers, that by definition requires no nerf to either.

 

But...instead we get basic stat buffs to abilities.  More power, more range, more mobility.  That's fine I guess, but it's not tackling the core issue and repeating the issues that DE is famous for.  Namely, release overwhelmingly underpowered.  Buff the thing slightly, long after the early adopters have determined it to be useless.  Outdate the outrage of more fodder with only minor changes...and wait for the community to forget.  Accelerate this by promising something new...and when veterans start to grouse about things simply release new cosmetics.  

Why even talk about this on a thread for Yareli changes?  Well, about a month ago things were fine with Yareli.  Since then...no new content.  OK.  About a month later DE launches workshops on corrupted holokeys and Yareli....with no substantive content updates.  Now changes are possible and fine...and nobody is going to question what changed with literally no changes to the game.  I know I am...and I'm simply seeing this as data rolling in.  Yareli and the Tenet melee weapons are painfully underused, along with Railjack.  Scramble!  We have to make this content viable...who cares about what we said earlier?

[Lancars]

Maybe make riptide have double range on enemies who are being held by bubbles?

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

19 hours ago, Kaiune said:

What kdrive mod would really help it be any better?

They could remove/reduce the double jump height then let players tune it to their preference through mods, for example. Not everyone likes that the current double jump is halfway to the moon.

[jesusdh]

Community: 

• Yareli needs synergies between her abilities;
• Better scaling or some kind of defense debuff on enemies;
• She's not Nezha, Merulina doesn't need to slide so much;
• Allow Primary and Melee weapons to be used on Merulina;
• Make her passive for all weapons, not only secondary;
• Add a decay for her passive, not all be gone once you stop moving.
• Camera issues while on Merulina;
• Bumping her head on doors while on Merulina;
• Less uncontrolled ragdoll on Riptide;
• Modded range on Aqua Blades;
• Let us mod Merullina;
• Better AI pathing and better CC control, even some energy adjusts on Sea Snares.

 

DE:

• We gave Merulina a dash.

[Grav_Starstrider]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Synergies help expand what a Warframe is capable of. And since these buffs aren’t going to do enough to make Yareli reliably good the best thing would be to add synergize that either greatly improve these abilities performances or provide something that’ll indirectly help the abilities.

And as for your argument regarding subsuming abilities. The helminth system is not an excuse for DE to not improve frames.

Oh I'm the last person to argue that Helminth should be the solution to half-baked abilities. I'm just saying I'd rather see genuinely self-sufficient abilities worth the energy they cost to cast, without being reliant on casting two abilities.

36 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Just...no.

Just... Yes? It stands to reason that they clearly don't want Yareli being a brand new, way-too-OP Warframe, going by how slow and weak the adjustments to her are going. But lets say they buff her stuff all the way up to being an average Warframe, not the best at many things, but really okay or good at several things. If they did that exclusively by making their abilities interdependent on each other to achieve that okay-ness, then replacing any of her abilities (or putting her Aquablades on someone else) would be really rough, as it'd reduce the viability that was given by her Synergy.

Synergy-heavy Warframes are really fun. I adore Nezha, whose 1, 2, and 4 are all really synergistic, or Wukong's 1 benefiting from 2, 3, and 4. So much fun, that they can be difficult to justify swapping out certain abilities sometimes. It's nice, by comparison, to see Zephyr's abilities no longer requiring they be used in tandem (budging Tornadoes with 1, using 2 to increase their size, etc), as I can just replace whichever ability I feel like, without feeling like I've ruined her entire kit. I'm just pointing out, while some synergy, which you'll note that I provided suggestions for, would make her more engaging to play with, but failing to fix her ability's fundamental weaknesses would be rough.

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This is important to bring up, but I think there are differences between synergies and dependencies, though the lines between them can get murky.  I wrote about it here, but basically good synergies reward using the abilities together while still letting the abilities function well enough on their own.  Harrow's kit doesn't have any forced synergies (dependencies) in it, but all of his abilities lend themselves well to each other.  You need the shields from his 1 to power your 2, your 4 can protect you while you are weakened by your 2, and your 3 fuels everything.  Compare that to Sevagoth's 1 and 2.  I never use the 1 unless I've just used the 2, or the 2 is still in effect and I can't recast it yet.

 

I think if done properly, synergies would help Yareli a lot.  Beyond the synergies I mentioned, there's also the idea of a cohesive kit that makes sense to use together.  Yareli's kit is focused on CC and standing still so your blades can repeatedly damage enemies... yet her passive rewards movement, movement she could get from her 2, but her 2 feels terrible to use in its current state.  She's lacking synergies and cohesiveness.

You get it!

Her entire kit theoretically is supposed to revolve around movement via her Merulina, rushing around, bubbling enemies with SeaSnares, slashing them with Aquablades as you rip past them, and gathering them all up with Riptide. But Aquablades depends on you being a very specific range near (and away! cuz dead-zone center of the ring of spinning blades!) to enemies and doesn't do any added damage/range (that I've noticed) by being on Merulina, by having them recently Riptided or currently SeaSnared, and there's no interaction with SeaSnares or Riptide, or Riptide and Aquablades.

There are ways to make her abilities individually better (per-level scaling on Aquablades and SeaSnare's damage, status chance for the cold damage on SeaSnares, giving Merulina K-Drive modding capability, and the simple number-tweaks they're giving Riptide, though it could also use scaling damage such as level-based damage), but there are also synergy options for buffs (explicit bonus damage to enemies currently or recently affected by another ability, increasing any combination of range/strength/efficiency/duration of abilities while on Merulina, making the first Aquablade hit on a SeaSnared foe send an Aquablade flying to the nearest SeaSnared/un-SeaSnared/or-any enemy, making Riptide pull in all SeaSnared enemies, or all up to a capped maximum distance, or of a multiplied distance from it's modded duration such as double or quadruple the normal range, making Riptide refresh the duration of SeaSnares, make any SeaSnares that hit existing SeaSnares "explode" in a radius around the impacted target, dealing damage to them, and SeaSnaring enemies in the blast radius, have Aquablades divert and travel to Riptide when cast, hitting enemies en route and also within the Riptide).
I'd prefer if DE did a bit of both, rather than relying on exclusively one or the other. Obviously not ALL of these synergies or direct buffs would need to be applied for her to start feeling competitive, but a cherrypicked few would feel great on her.

[Grav_Starstrider]

11 minutes ago, jesusdh said:

Community: 

• Yareli needs synergies between her abilities;
• Better scaling or some kind of defense debuff on enemies;
• She's not Nezha, Merulina doesn't need to slide so much;
• Allow Primary and Melee weapons to be used on Merulina;
• Make her passive for all weapons, not only secondary;
• Add a decay for her passive, not all be gone once you stop moving.
• Camera issues while on Merulina;
• Bumping her head on doors while on Merulina;
• Less uncontrolled ragdoll on Riptide;
• Modded range on Aqua Blades;
• Let us mod Merullina;
• Better AI pathing and better CC control, even some energy adjusts on Sea Snares.

 

DE:

• We gave Merulina a dash.

On 2021-08-19 at 10:15 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Pretty much, yep. From the 20+ pages of feedback that is this thread, what did they come up with for their workshop?

The disregard is beyond palpable - it's a solid brick the size of a car.

 DE you're losing your reputation of listening to your playerbase with such sluggish and half-hearted updates to a new Warframe after sitting on her for a month :/

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

39 minutes ago, jesusdh said:

Community: 

• Yareli needs synergies between her abilities;
• Better scaling or some kind of defense debuff on enemies;
• She's not Nezha, Merulina doesn't need to slide so much;
• Allow Primary and Melee weapons to be used on Merulina;
• Make her passive for all weapons, not only secondary;
• Add a decay for her passive, not all be gone once you stop moving.
• Camera issues while on Merulina;
• Bumping her head on doors while on Merulina;
• Less uncontrolled ragdoll on Riptide;
• Modded range on Aqua Blades;
• Let us mod Merullina;
• Better AI pathing and better CC control, even some energy adjusts on Sea Snares.

 

DE:

• We gave Merulina a dash.

You can add moddable Damage Reduction and Warding Halo-like absorption period for Merulina to the list.

The upper list, obviously, because DE refuses to give Yareli anything that you'd think would be standard.

[Maryph]

il y a 28 minutes, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu a dit :

You can add moddable Damage Reduction and Warding Halo-like absorption period for Merulina to the list.

The upper list, obviously, because DE refuses to give Yareli anything that you'd think would be standard.

Yeah, like I don't get it
How can you allow the DR to be increased on every frames that possess DR and suddenly say "Well, this one will be less tankier and have it's DR stucked at 75 percent no matter what". Like wtf.

It's a bit like the Ambassador farm, it took me 27 hours to get all the parts because bad RNG, and the weapon is dogS#&$ compared to some of the easiest weapons to farm (or some 60 pl prime weapon on warframe market to have)
Like, what's going on inside their heads ?
"Let's make that thing a pain to farm
- It'll be powerful ?
- No, pure dogS#&$ with no innate polarity, just a pain to farm
- Ok"

I just don't get it, you can't make powerful items easy to obtain and then make S#&$ tier ones a pain to farm.
It's the same for Yareli, you can't make top tier warframe with the same mecanics and just let Yareli as it is right now, that's just not possible.
I quite frankly think that they should release new things in a busted way, then just tune them down. (They used to do that)
This way they would be playable instantly, not 1-2 month or even years after their release.

[L2Alpha]

Please just let us cast subsumed abilities like Zephyrs Air Burst while on Merulina......otherwise I will always have to replace Merulina when I subsume anything onto her. It just breaks the flow of the gameplay ...big time :(

[Maryph]

il y a 1 minute, L2Alpha a dit :

Please just let us cast subsumed abilities like Zephyrs Air Burst while on Merulina......otherwise I will always have to replace Merulina when I subsume anything onto her. It just breaks the flow of the gameplay ...big time :(

They said that this is not planned anytime soon as it would need a complete animation revision and code of all the 50 abilities helminth has to offer and they don't have the time for it right now.
Maybe one day, if they don't forget about it.
But yeah, I agree, it sucks.

[LagartoPunkarra]

15 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Reminder to everyone though, Synergies are practically equivalent to asking for a Warframe's base abilities to be less effective, forcing encouraging players to use all abilities more proactively in order to gain the maximum effectiveness. It's also just as fine for a Warframe's individual abilities to be individually potent and fun to use without Synergies, and actually makes them more compelling candidates for Infusing other Warframe abilities, since you aren't ruining a Synergy, and also makes their Subsumed ability a not-innately-neutered-by-the-absent-synergy ability.

I would say that you're right, if DE didn't scale abilities that doesn't have any synergies with level 30 enemies. Specially if they don't bring much utility or are completely outclassed by every single other Warframe. This is the problem with Yareli, no synergies and her abilities scale nicely until you reach level 30 enemies and they start being as effective as blowing kisses.

Synergies means better scaling and more effectiveness. And if the abilities work great in the kit, why replace one with Helminth?

[vigilant_hunter]

Make Merulina moddable, the only thing worse than a k-drive is a k-drive without any mods.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

To bad Grendel didnt get any love after his release.