Jump to content

Rivens fail to bring the actual weak weapons on par with some of the strong ones


DefectiveMagus
 Share

Recommended Posts

Rivens which were supposedly added to bring weaker guns on par with the stonger ones, fail at doing exactly that. 

As far as i remember DE decided to balance guns based on mastery requirement, so some guns are are just straight up weaker then others in every regard, which is where the rivens come in.

They are suppose to help high MR players buff weaker guns so they could have fun with them on high end content, and in my opinion they fail to do so.

What they curently are achieving is bringing some mid tier guns more up to top tier, and buffing some top tier guns even more (im talking about rubico prime, which i honestly have no idea as to why are people buying rivens for that, when its already super strong as it is...and yes i know its for Eidolon hunting, but still...)

They fail to make weaker guns compete with the high end of the guns spectrum, like for example: mitter, mutalist quanta, hema, and so on... and this is not even taking into account how strong some of the melee weapons are.

My suggestion for helping alleviate the issue is: make riven disposition have a higher cap.

What i mean by that is for example:

Mitter curently has a 1.50 Riven disposition (1.55 being the highest), change the max to being 2.00, and as such, change the riven disposition of mitter to lets say 1.90. 

Same with mutalist quanta, curently has 1.50, change it to 1.90, and so on.

Would that make those guns as good as kuva bramma? or proboscis cernos? or cedo?

In my personal opinion not likely, those guns have the added benefit of ease of use, next to being strong (not even mentioning the AoE part). 

Another issue with riven disposition is that its balanced around usage, not strength, which i guess has its benefits, but it makes guns like Convectrix with a solid enough riven, dish out insane amounts of damage.

Because (im pressuming) people dont like using the gun cause of how clunky it is with the converging lasers, and the fact that its not AoE and that it feels very underwhelming when hitting enemies (visual and audio). So it has a low riven disposition, even with actual good stats, so with a good enough riven it can actually deal a lot of DPS through slash procs.

And i would like if more guns were like this, clunky and weak to use, but with a good enough riven, able to dish out insane amount of DPS in their gimmicky way.

Now some of you that might say:

1 - "but that would make guns like the mentioned convetrix even more broken!" 

or

2 - "Then a different weapon will be insane so people will just switch to chasing rivens for that" 

or

3 - "You just didnt mod it right, with my mod config X and my warframe config Y and the subsumed abilities i put on, with my maxed out pet that has synergy with how i shoot and also has mod combo "

1 - Which is why i mentioned the fact that riven should also be balanced around weapon power, not usage, but then again, i doubt many people would use convetrix even if it got even more buffs, cause it is pretty clunky to use, and doesnt feel powerful even when you are melting enemies with the slash procs.

2 - That would be great, since then, there would be bigger weapon diversity, you could use weapons that are by base design really strong and require minimal resources put in to make them even stronger, or you could use guns that are weaker by base design but require a lot more resources put it to hopefully be on a similar power level as the before mentioned gun. 

That would also make those gimmick guns, with gimmick mods and abilities make more use of said mods and abilities. (Bursting Mass, Neutralizing Justice, Exposing Harpoon and so on...)

3 - By the time you set all that up, the Wukong player with the Kuva bramma has already killed the capture target, everything around them and is waiting for you at extraction.

Which is why i feel even giving weak guns (especially single target guns) higher riven dispositions wouldnt make them outperform some of the popular AoE guns, but at least you will feel like you are contributing.

I apologize for possible grammar errors, and hope to hear your opinions on why i am wrong (or not) and how this is a healthy weapons meta (or how its not?)

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like the practical problem has been identified ages ago: that Rivens depend on the weapon's innate stats, and those hardly change.

If you have a 15% crit chance base, a 200% CC Riven takes that up to 45%. At 300%, it's 60%. The average crit chance is creeping north of 80%, especially as new weapons and content are released.

If we're going to aim for weaker weapons being brought to par, and have that be sustainable, it's probably more effective to have Rivens affect the base stats themselves in some way.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

il y a 48 minutes, fo3nixz a dit :

im all for that but also make dispo go  lower than 0.5. mayb 0.25

Riven dispo shouldn't get lower than 0.75

Below this value it's worse than a 60/60 element mod

 

About the OP imho the main "issue" with rivens is crit chance / crit damage which scales badly.

Edited by MonsterOfMyOwn
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

I feel like the practical problem has been identified ages ago: that Rivens depend on the weapon's innate stats, and those hardly change.

If you have a 15% crit chance base, a 200% CC Riven takes that up to 45%. At 300%, it's 60%. The average crit chance is creeping north of 80%, especially as new weapons and content are released.

If we're going to aim for weaker weapons being brought to par, and have that be sustainable, it's probably more effective to have Rivens affect the base stats themselves in some way.

yeah agreed, i was thinking how then it would be hard to balance riven disposition, but then i remembered that they balance that around usage either way, so it wouldnt matter :)

And also i agree with the point @fo3nixzmade, the low end limit should also be lower, because rivens should server no purpose in guns that are very strong and everybody uses them, cause they already have good enough stats that you can experiment with a lot of different mods and get good results, so yeah, the riven should be weaker than a 60/60 mod

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In other news, water causes the sensation of wetness, the sky is blue at high noon, and stubbing your toe on door frames hurts like a mofo.

The issue is that no matter how high the multipliers are, things with insufficient base stats will never get decent mileage out them.

Edited by Aldain
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, DefectiveMagus said:

Rivens which were supposedly added to bring weaker guns on par with the stonger ones, fail at doing exactly that. 

I wasn't around when riven disposition was introduced.  Did DE actually say rivens were supposed to bring weak weapons "on par" with the strongest ones?  With no caveats?

If it was more something like, "...to extend the viability of less popular weapons" the system is certainly successful at that. 

(I'm not saying it's a good system, or that that goal--if it was the goal-- goes far enough.)

Edited by Tiltskillet
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I wasn't around when riven disposition was introduced.  Did DE actually say rivens were supposed to bring weak weapons "on par" with the strongest ones?  With no caveats?

If it was more something like, "...to extend the viability of less popular weapons" the system is certainly successful at that. 

(I'm not saying it's a good system, or that that goal--if it was the goal-- goes far enough.)

dont quote me on that, but just generally the system fails to do what it was suppose to do. Best part was when they were first introduced, there were no riven dispositions, so everything got equal stats on the mod. So people went crazy over like soma rivens and rivens for other guns that were op at the time, making the top tier guns that much stronger.

So yeah, as it stands right now, from my perspective, only a handful of weapons are usable and great with a riven, the rest goes from meh to a little les meh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, DefectiveMagus said:

Rivens which were supposedly added to bring weaker guns on par with the stonger ones, fail at doing exactly that. 

This was not the initial intent, thus they fail to achieve said goal. The narrativ of "helping weaker weapons" as well as disposition were added days after Riven release after player feedback related to balance concerns. It is captured black on white in the DevWorkshop.

1 hour ago, DefectiveMagus said:

but just generally the system fails to do what it was supposed to do

If you evaluate Rivens under another perspective, namely as a lootbox with an incentive to increase player trades, plat purchases or an everlasting carrot for burned out veterenas, then Rivens work wonderfully. Even in their initial release state with no disposition.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

im all for that but also make dispo go  lower than 0.5. mayb 0.25

0.5 is enough to make those rivens almost useless unless you roll some good roll on it, we don't need that nerf.

Edited by Test-995
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rivens failed because it's an RNG slot machine madness. If DE implemented some sort of bad luck protection in the system, Rivens would succeed as an off meta power booster.

You either be extremely lucky or pay inflated prices to get a specific riven.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always held a simple belief about rivens:

If a weapon needs a riven to make it good, that weapon needs either a rework or a buff to make it viable.

Honestly it's kinda easy to find which weapons aren't very good in Warframe just by looking at how many blips there are for the Rivens.

If I were making Rivens I'd make it less of a RNG system.

If you place a Riven on a weapon that you want, let's say a Rifle Riven for the Tenet Flux Rifle, then the riven will be one of for the Flux Rifle. It would still be randomized to some degree and still have the Riven market floating (most likely heavily dropping inflated Riven prices) so it wouldn't upset either market and it would give the players what they want, a riven for that specific weapon.

Also: Hey, DE, instead of nerfing everything into the ground to make other weapons seem better, actually work on a way for those weapons to be better and not go back a month or two later and curb stomp them into the ground just because they're good.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I personally agree that Rivens aren't doing enough to make non-meta weapons viable enough. I personally think it's mostly because all of the "good stats" are ones that make meta weapons even more meta, but fail to affect low-tier weapons enough to compete with meta, or significantly extend their viability to at least compete with riven-less meta or mid-tier weapons. If we're seeing that they're more or less failing to make non-meta weapons substantially viable enough, it'd be nice to simply see the "range" of Riven disposition widened further, so that meta weapons (low disposition) still see approximately the same effectiveness (which is pitiful amounts like +25% crit chance/damage boosts or what-have-you), while the best dispositions see even more drastically effective stats boosts. If the least-meta weapons with the best dispositions had rivens do something in the range of 50% better stat-boosts, with 4-star dispositions having 30% better than currently, we might see Rivens more effectively allowing non-meta weapons to compete with the meta ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, (XBOX)ScooterLaroo said:

If a weapon needs a riven to make it good, that weapon needs either a rework or a buff to make it viable.

Agreed fully. The simplest and most direct way of buffing underperforming weapons is buffing them directly. Rivens are a wildly unpredictable way of buffing weapons, benefit only those who have the mods (and a good version of them), require even more maintenance than direct stat adjustments, and often fail to do the job properly.

For this reason, I suspect Riven mods were never intended to be used as a balancing measure, so much as a means of generating random items that could sell for huge amounts of plat on the player market. Problem is, even that much isn't very stable or sustainable, because we're now in a state where new weapons pre-emptively have their Riven disposition minimized, and weapons with high dispositions are too crap to be salvageable by even god Riven mods. Following the status rework there isn't even a strong reason to purchase those loopy negative Impact damage mods on weapons like the Kohm, since many weapons can bust armored enemies just fine without a Riven. I wonder how much revenue they're generating now compared to on release.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

im all for that but also make dispo go  lower than 0.5. mayb 0.25

I agree. Rivens should really not be viable on the super powerful weapons. Maybe such a change will discourage the horrible price gouging that takes place with rivens. 

Though tbh the whole system needs thrown in the garbage. It is so wildly unbalanced that the devs must have been smoking some of that colorado green when they came up with it. I am sure they have made a ton of money off people buying plat to purchase rivens but at the same time no nail has been hammered into the warframe coffin deeper than that of rivens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

En 20/8/2021 a las 9:35, fo3nixz dijo:

im all for that but also make dispo go  lower than 0.5. mayb 0.25

No.

The original plan for rivens was to bring the weaker weapons on par with the stronger ones, this doesnt mean that the stronger ones shouldnt have the option to be a little more powerful.

Increasing the cap will help but this should be implemented with a dispo rebalance, changing it around the weapon's power and not the usage as OP said. Also a way to roll a single stat for more kuva lets say wouldnt hurt anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A disposition will never make up for innate weapon performance differences unless you want a game state like we saw with Scoliac's Range from Riven Mods which is the unhealthiest direction this game can go towards.

Disposition power creep is the laziest and worst idea for this problem. The proper solution is removing disposition entirely and tuning weapons based on their innate mechanics. The usage of weapons is virtually unaffected by Riven Mods. Simultaneously, specific Riven Mod popularity is unaffected by disposition. Whether Kronen Prime, Rubico Prime, Kuva Nukor, Kuva Bramma, Tenet Envoy, Cedo, or other powerhouse weapons remain at low dispositions, their market share is still overwhelming because of their innate performance.

Not every weapon is supposed to be at the higher end of strength. It's called gear progression. There's nothing wrong with some equipment just becoming obsolete as you progress through the game and gather better mods/weapons.

Edited by Voltage
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-20 at 9:35 AM, fo3nixz said:

im all for that but also make dispo go  lower than 0.5. mayb 0.25

Lower dispositions don't actually affect weapon choice or relative power of a specific weapon, it just restricts the player on which stats are good enough to use a slot, and increases the importance of grades which is terrible in practice. Your idea of a 0.25 disposition would quite literally either lock a weapon Riven to needing a specific roll, or worse: no roll would be worth a slot and the existence of that weapon's eligibility for Riven Mods would be disrespectful to players with the illusion anything they get will have any performance increase at all.

Edited by Voltage
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

my thoughts to the topic: i think balancing all weapons is wrong as each equipament needs to be suitable for every level of play so new mods will make these equipaments goes one level up or one level down by mod system. in short this will only be clean when the DE accepts that created tierlists and use them correctly.

Tierlists must be implemented in-game blocking mods, weapons, missions, accesses, enemyes, maps...  that's the only way we can tell if something is adequate or not at objective level.

this way the riven's and mods raised the weapon's rating making the popularity between weapons extremely random. the ideal would be to solve this soon as the content pool is getting huge.

Edited by Famecans
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also make the lowest disposition to at least 1.0 instead of 0.5

At 0.5-0.7, virtually all Riven stats are so low and useless and can be replaced by some average Mods. Move the entire disposition range from 0.5-1.5 to 1.0-2.0. 
 

This issue is particularly obvious after the introduce of Galvanized Mods that render many Rivens of disposition lower than 1.0 - 0.9 simply useless. So moving the entire strange up provides proper buffs to make sure they are still unique and useful. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. Rivens did very little to make weaker weapons on par with some of the more popular weapons.

The main problem is that most of the weaker weapons have very lackluster stats to begin with like what some of y'all have said.

Stats that were designed 5 years ago (or more) will not be able to keep up at all with the standards of today.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The main problem is that most of the weaker weapons have very lackluster stats to begin with like what some of y'all have said."

THIS.  Which also means we have dozens of weapons in our arsenal that have no point in the current version of Warframe since they are so underpowered.  I keep them because there might be a new mod or whatever but otherwise they sit there.  This issue affects new players especially because they think these older weaker weapons are worth building, but they aren't.  I know it will never happen but some of these very underpowered weapons need to be retired from the game.  That will never happen for tons of reasons I know  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, I am hopeful that rivens can be redeemed as a fun and worthwhile game mechanic. Whether DE will actually accomplish that is up truly rng. Rivens should be a worthwhile end-game pursuit. Kind of the last step in min-maxing a given weapon.

Currently i think the biggest issues with rivens are: Disposition and the horrible RNG.

fixing the rng thing I think would be relatively simple if handled in the right way. I would suggest some combination of 1. being able to increase the %chance that a certain stat will be rolled. 2. outright choosing a certain stat based on rolls. Say if you've rolled a riven 20 times you get to choose one stat, then another at 40 rolls etc. So inevitably you will get that god roll given enough kuva invested.

Another idea would be to use kill-count with the weapon as a resource for this same purpose. Say after 1k kills with the weapon you can up the % or after 5k kills choose a stat or something like that.

 

As for disposition, perhaps you get an additional stat at 4+ dispo. for example 4 positives, 1 negative. Conversevely at dispo lower that 1.5 or something you only get 2 positives and 1 negative max but the stats themselves are actually a bit higher than current. I think this could go a long way in balancing the system. Not a total solution but certainly worth consideration imo.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-08-20 at 2:28 PM, DefectiveMagus said:

Rivens which were supposedly added to bring weaker guns on par with the stonger ones, fail at doing exactly that. 

It was my understanding they were added to bring lesser used weapons on par with more frequently used weapons... There was no mention of Performance being one of the factors for their inclusion.... Even though that's exactly what caused this disparity in weapon usage in the first place...

So basically you read this whole response for absolutely no reason 😁 !!!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...