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Needed change to dragon key following shield gating.


dwqrf
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With the shield gating, the game changed deeply. I remember, how hard it was before. Now, a lot of people claim the challenge of reaching level cap, 10.014, with any frames, and just one meta mod ; Rolling guard, allowing you to be invulnerable for a short period of time, which you use wisely, after your shield gating procc. But the quick replayability of this combo is a problem.

It's not about rolling guard, which is balanced by itself. It's not even about the shield gating, granting you 1.3s of protection after it break ; but the abuse is using the corrupted dragon key, which reduce your total shield by 75% ; and the reduction of the overall shield doesn't have much impact on the base shield regerenation (being 15flat+5%total), and quick shield generation is required to refill the pool, reseting the passive effect of shield gating.

For example, a Warframe having 300 shield will have a shield regeneration of 30 (15+15), which is 10% of the total Shield per second. But when using a dragon key, you reduce the total amount required to recover, while keeping the base flat regeneration, which become increasingly powerfull the less shield you have. In the same example, 300 shield become 75, and the regeneration would be 18.75 (15+3.75); which is 25% of the total Shield per second.

It wouild take 10s to normally refill your shield, but while using a Decaying key, it takes 4 seconds.

And there is more than the simple shield regeneration, considering other means to generate shield which can be legitimately used to refresh the shield gating. But all of those also face the same issue : being able to reduce the total shield pool is making them too powerfull.

So I'd propose to change the Decaying dragon key as follow : Reduce shield (re)generation by 75%

 

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The regeneration is still irrelevant as this setup generally refills shields through the augur set and the brief respite aura. So shield go down, you roll and cast an ability to get your shields back. Repeat.

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il y a 6 minutes, Vahenir a dit :

The regeneration is still irrelevant as this setup generally refills shields through the augur set and the brief respite aura.

 

il y a une heure, dwqrf a dit :

And there is more than the simple shield regeneration, considering other means to generate shield which can be legitimately used to refresh the shield gating. But all of those also face the same issue : being able to reduce the total shield pool is making them too powerfull.

So I'd propose to change the Decaying dragon key as follow : Reduce shield (re)generation by 75%

 

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Dragon keys are suppose to hinder players, but instead it benefit players. To me it feels like an exploit and I am not sure why DE hasn't done anything to it.

I know there are many other overpower gimmick in the game. But in this scenario, clearly DE didn't intend it to be use this way.

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2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Reduce shield (re)generation by 75%

I'd go harder.

I'd change the Dragon key to decrease 100% of the shield, making it a no-shield mode.

The Orokin Vault missions will be unaffected (they are per se easy low-level missions, and there's so many ways to regain health), while it will no longer possible to do any shieldgate shenanigans.

 

Anyway, I agree with your analysis. Hope this in-depth explanation will reach DE.

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The dragon key is definitely an issue, but Rolling Guard need some changes too.

The concept of Rolling Guard is really interesting, but I think it has two major issues in the current state :

  • The long invulnerability period and cooldown encourage using it a "invicibility button" you have to use wisely instead of a dodge, which discourage the use of roll for the sake of rolling.
  • For the same reason as above, it greatly disavantage players who use roll for actual movement, which is a flaw for a mod that should encourage rolling.


To fix this, I would remove the cooldown and change the duration from "3s" to "animation duration + 0.5s".
This change would still make the mod useful, but prevent any cheesing strategy and ease of use, as long as not harming people who use rolls anymore.

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1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

The dragon key is definitely an issue, but Rolling Guard need some changes too.

The concept of Rolling Guard is really interesting, but I think it has two major issues in the current state :

  • The long invulnerability period and cooldown encourage using it a "invicibility button" you have to use wisely instead of a dodge, which discourage the use of roll for the sake of rolling.
  • For the same reason as above, it greatly disavantage players who use roll for actual movement, which is a flaw for a mod that should encourage rolling.


To fix this, I would remove the cooldown and change the duration from "3s" to "animation duration + 0.5s".
This change would still make the mod useful, but prevent any cheesing strategy and ease of use, as long as not harming people who use rolls anymore.

Starts rolling 24/7, never to be harmed again.

To be fair, this change would still not fix shield-gating shenanigans with a decaying dragon key because we have augur mods and brief respite. The former fit quite a few builds since most frames tend to highly favor range or duration (augur reach/message).

I think the decaying key should be changed to reduce the shield gating window.

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4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

With the shield gating, the game changed deeply. I remember, how hard it was before. Now, a lot of people claim the challenge of reaching level cap, 10.014, with any frames, and just one meta mod ; Rolling guard, allowing you to be invulnerable for a short period of time, which you use wisely, after your shield gating procc. But the quick replayability of this combo is a problem.

It's not about rolling guard, which is balanced by itself. It's not even about the shield gating, granting you 1.3s of protection after it break ; but the abuse is using the corrupted dragon key, which reduce your total shield by 75% ; and the reduction of the overall shield doesn't have much impact on the base shield regerenation (being 15flat+5%total), and quick shield generation is required to refill the pool, reseting the passive effect of shield gating.

For example, a Warframe having 300 shield will have a shield regeneration of 30 (15+15), which is 10% of the total Shield per second. But when using a dragon key, you reduce the total amount required to recover, while keeping the base flat regeneration, which become increasingly powerfull the less shield you have. In the same example, 300 shield become 75, and the regeneration would be 18.75 (15+3.75); which is 25% of the total Shield per second.

It wouild take 10s to normally refill your shield, but while using a Decaying key, it takes 4 seconds.

And there is more than the simple shield regeneration, considering other means to generate shield which can be legitimately used to refresh the shield gating. But all of those also face the same issue : being able to reduce the total shield pool is making them too powerfull.

So I'd propose to change the Decaying dragon key as follow : Reduce shield (re)generation by 75%

 

Just do what I usually do to stuff that apparently isn't working properly or is actually being exploited.

Spoiler

... Report the whole thing as a bug, and give a proper explanation why you think its a bug.

 

Afterwards, go to support and make a ticket, then link the bug report forum link into it and be brief with your description.

And then, all you have to do is to enjoy the results...

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1 hour ago, Quimoth said:

Starts rolling 24/7, never to be harmed again.

And never to actually do anything again, either. Remember - rolling interrupts interaction and reload animations and prevents the use of any weapons.

I've said this before and I know it's extreme, but I feel Warframe needs a fundamental change to shield mechanics. The current implementation of a long delay followed by slow recovery does not work. Shield Gating is a stopgap to paper over fundamental design flaws. I say either make shield recovery instant after the cooldown, or get rid of the cooldown and let us recover shields constantly. Either would remove the need for the shield gate, whereupon it can be drastically reduced in potency.

Pretty much all of Warframe's core gameplay issues trace back to systems bloat and power creep. Rather than going back to formula and redesigning core systems, DE all too often just pile on more feature to them. Sometimes it can help address some of the symptoms, but the core issues persist.

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3 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

I'd go harder.

I'd change the Dragon key to decrease 100% of the shield, making it a no-shield mode.

The Orokin Vault missions will be unaffected (they are per se easy low-level missions, and there's so many ways to regain health), while it will no longer possible to do any shieldgate shenanigans.

 

Anyway, I agree with your analysis. Hope this in-depth explanation will reach DE.

Also nice for someone like Grendel who might want the on-health damage (for more energy) without mucking in the shield gate invulnerability time. Not a huge use-case there but, that's kind of the point, too.

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5 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Dragon keys are suppose to hinder players, but instead it benefit players. To me it feels like an exploit and I am not sure why DE hasn't done anything to it.

I know there are many other overpower gimmick in the game. But in this scenario, clearly DE didn't intend it to be use this way.

There likely isn't many people using it. Hildryn had Energy Siphon making her immortal without having to actually use her second ability for a long time, and likely only got fixed because it was something you would actually see people doing, plus the videos.

Shield-gate abuse isn't even the only method to be nearly immortal, and DE hasn't "fixed" the other method.

Warframe is full of broken interactions, and generally they stay as long as they aren't used often, or put in front of them.

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Personally, cheesing mechanics like this takes away from the power fantasy, so I don't use it. But, it makes no difference to me if other players do it. Reaching level cap still takes a measure of skill and patience. Mostly patience. Really wish we could choose what level enemies start at on entering missions...

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6 часов назад, Steel_Rook сказал:

Either would remove the need for the shield gate

I think it was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but the shieldgate is a countermeasure to being one-shot by some random ass bullet you haver had any opportunity to avoid. I remember seeing clips of people killed by a guy standing on the other side of the door even before said door was even half opened through like 5k ehp including shields with quick thinking on top of that.

Yeah, DE need to rebalance a lot of things, but if we loose that "protection" just constant shield regen won't cut it for this one-shots. 

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10 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

I'd go harder.

I'd change the Dragon key to decrease 100% of the shield, making it a no-shield mode.

The Orokin Vault missions will be unaffected (they are per se easy low-level missions, and there's so many ways to regain health), while it will no longer possible to do any shieldgate shenanigans.

 

Anyway, I agree with your analysis. Hope this in-depth explanation will reach DE.

No shield mode would open up a world of alternative exploits using rage and other health related strategies currently only accessible through nidus or inaros.

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13 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

I'd change the Dragon key to decrease 100% of the shield, making it a no-shield mode.

The Orokin Vault missions will be unaffected (they are per se easy low-level missions, and there's so many ways to regain health), while it will no longer possible to do any shieldgate shenanigans.

Alternatively, in case of overshield problems or something, make the key disable Shield Gating.

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I'm all for fixing the exploit if it's a problem, but at the moment if I'm not leveling a Warframe, Dragon Keys let me take my level 30 frame into level 15 content and still feel threatened.

Whatever the fix is, as long as it lets me have to survive a Lith fissure or low-level bounty or invasion or Nightmare or syndicate mission or whatever like I currently am, where I can take a few hits but not facetank things, I'm fine with it 👍 (not a fan of disabling shieldgating right-out, since I love the mechanic)

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The problem is about using something that supposed to be a curse, a malediction, a nerf, a downgrade ; whatever you want to call it ; and using it wisely allows you to become muuuuuch more resistant than without.

I don't mind about the many ways to become tanky, or even invulnerable. They all have limits, of cost, time, or situation. The Decaying dragon key doesn't. When you equip it, you have more instances of shield gating during any combat. That's all, and it shouldn't be like that.

You can still use Armor, Life, Adaptation, Quick thinking, or any other means to improve your life EHP ; but NONE OF IT MATTERS, if you know how to abuse shield gating.

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Personally I think shield-gating invulnerability timer should scale on shields.

My current idea for a formula would be:

Max-shields (e.g. no overshields active) / 300, hard capped at 2 or 3 seconds. This is MORE than the current shield gating but it requires more shields and thus more usage of brief respite/augur mods (which to me seems like a reasonable trade-off).

I am going over a few edge and base cases quickly here to illustrate what this would accomplish.

  • Grendel:
    Base shields(r0): 25
    Rank 30 modifier: 2
    Base shield-gating timer: 75/300 = 0.25 seconds
    Maximum total shields: 25 * (1 + 2 + 4.4redirection + 2.2primed vigor + 1.8augur accord) = 285 shields
    Max shield-gating timer: 285/300 = 0.95 seconds
     
  • Hildryn:
    Base shields(r0): 450
    Rank 30 modifier: 2.5
    Base shield-gating timer: 1575/300 = 5.25 seconds
    Maximum total shields: 450 * (1 + 2.5 + 4.4redirection + 2.2primed vigor + 1.8augur accord) = 5355 shields
    Max shield-gating timer: 5355/300 = 17.85 seconds
     
  • Revenant:
    Base shields(r0): 225
    Rank 30 modifier: 2
    Base shield-gating timer: 675/300 = 2.25 seconds
    Maximum total shields: 225 * (1 + 2 + 4.4redirection + 2.2primed vigor + 1.8augur accord) = 2565 shields
    Max shield-gating timer: 2565/300 = 8.55 seconds
     
  • Base shields(r0): 150
    Rank 30 modifier: 2
    Base shield-gating timer: 450/300 = 1.5 seconds
    Maximum total shields: 150 * (1 + 2 + 4.4redirection + 2.2primed vigor + 1.8augur accord) = 1710 shields
    Max shield-gating timer: 1710/300 = 5.7 seconds
     
  • Base shields(r0): 100
    Rank 30 modifier: 2
    Base shield-gating timer: 300/300 = 1 seconds
    Maximum total shields: 100 * (1 + 2 + 4.4redirection + 2.2primed vigor + 1.8augur accord) = 1140 shields
    Max shield-gating timer: 1140/300 = 3.8 seconds

Hildryn her passive might need a slight upgrade/rework to better fit this new mechanic.

By all means, this is merely an example of how it COULD work. I've made these numbers up on the go. It could even be that you would want the shield-gating to scale inversely with max shields to keep frames like grendel in a shield-gating sweet spot. However this would in turn simply not change anything. Current shield-gating lasts 1.3 seconds (3 for hildryn) so in general most frames actually get buffed with my current numbers as soon as they even equip vigor.

I am just curious if people can spot any flaws or possible improvements in this general idea I wrote down here.

Writing this down quickly for copy-paste to calculate other frames should anyone want it:

b * (1 + 2 + mods) = max, this will work for almost any frame, sole exception being hildryn (base modifier is 2.5 instead of 2)

b * (1 + 2 + 4.4 + 2.2 + 1.8) = max, ultimate shield build quicky.

Get shield values from the wiki: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Warframes_Comparison#Unranked

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17 hours ago, Darth_Predator said:

I think it was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but the shieldgate is a countermeasure to being one-shot by some random ass bullet you haver had any opportunity to avoid. I remember seeing clips of people killed by a guy standing on the other side of the door even before said door was even half opened through like 5k ehp including shields with quick thinking on top of that.

That should have said "reduce" rather than "remove." Reduce the need for the Shield Gate. I understand that some kind of one-shot protection ought to be in place. I just figure that both of the ways I proposed would reduce our reliance on said one-shot protection for other things. Crucially, I want to see shields THEMSELVES be made viable, rather than relying on backup systems for when our shields are inevitably one-shot.

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15 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

if I'm not leveling a Warframe, Dragon Keys let me take my level 30 frame into level 15 content and still feel threatened.

Amusingly enough, it's the other way around for me when it comes to the shield reduction key, and many others by the sound of things - Decaying Dragon Key lets me take my frames into endgame content and not feel threatened.

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On 2021-08-21 at 7:51 AM, Steel_Rook said:
On 2021-08-21 at 6:23 AM, Quimoth said:

Starts rolling 24/7, never to be harmed again.

And never to actually do anything again, either. Remember - rolling interrupts interaction and reload animations and prevents the use of any weapons.

Narrator:  But Steel Rook had not accounted for... [dramatic pause]

Narrator:  ...the Aquablades meta.  [spooky music] 

(But with an extra half second of invuln and some shield gating between rolls, I'm sure there's some room for actual shenanigans.)

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6 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Amusingly enough, it's the other way around for me when it comes to the shield reduction key, and many others by the sound of things - Decaying Dragon Key lets me take my frames into endgame content and not feel threatened.

That is sort of funny, yeah 😋. I wouldn’t have thought to do so.

🤔 If I did do a thing like that, it’d probably just be to see how far I could get in SP, and once that mild curiosity was answered, not sure I’d be bothered to keep doing it. Lichs and stuff I don’t need it for

A greatest weakness has become a greatest strength

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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On 2021-08-21 at 1:51 PM, lukinu_u said:

The dragon key is definitely an issue, but Rolling Guard need some changes too.

The concept of Rolling Guard is really interesting, but I think it has two major issues in the current state :

  • The long invulnerability period and cooldown encourage using it a "invicibility button" you have to use wisely instead of a dodge, which discourage the use of roll for the sake of rolling.
  • For the same reason as above, it greatly disavantage players who use roll for actual movement, which is a flaw for a mod that should encourage rolling.


To fix this, I would remove the cooldown and change the duration from "3s" to "animation duration + 0.5s".
This change would still make the mod useful, but prevent any cheesing strategy and ease of use, as long as not harming people who use rolls anymore.

I'm using RG + maybe Adaptation and I like to roll a lot. Sometimes I start shooting (without rolling) and when I see some proc then I roll.

ps. as someone said it would make you immortal while rolling

On 2021-08-21 at 11:48 PM, Darth_Predator said:

I think it was mentioned somewhere in the thread, but the shieldgate is a countermeasure to being one-shot by some random ass bullet you haver had any opportunity to avoid. I remember seeing clips of people killed by a guy standing on the other side of the door even before said door was even half opened through like 5k ehp including shields with quick thinking on top of that.

Yeah, DE need to rebalance a lot of things, but if we loose that "protection" just constant shield regen won't cut it for this one-shots. 

Not sure when it was added but recently I started seeing enemies started shooting before they could see me. If that cheating AI were in those days then something had to be done.

47 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

A greatest weakness has become a greatest strength

I'm not sure where I have heard it... it may be some N-th version. It goes like this:

Quote

When you want army to win put fire before them. Knowing that they cannot escape, they will fight better.

So in theory it's not so stupid. :D

 

8 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

That should have said "reduce" rather than "remove." Reduce the need for the Shield Gate. I understand that some kind of one-shot protection ought to be in place. I just figure that both of the ways I proposed would reduce our reliance on said one-shot protection for other things. Crucially, I want to see shields THEMSELVES be made viable, rather than relying on backup systems for when our shields are inevitably one-shot.

On 2021-08-21 at 4:51 PM, Steel_Rook said:

I've said this before and I know it's extreme, but I feel Warframe needs a fundamental change to shield mechanics. The current implementation of a long delay followed by slow recovery does not work. Shield Gating is a stopgap to paper over fundamental design flaws. I say either make shield recovery instant after the cooldown, or get rid of the cooldown and let us recover shields constantly. Either would remove the need for the shield gate, whereupon it can be drastically reduced in potency.

Pretty much all of Warframe's core gameplay issues trace back to systems bloat and power creep. Rather than going back to formula and redesigning core systems, DE all too often just pile on more feature to them. Sometimes it can help address some of the symptoms, but the core issues persist.

A lot of systems should be redesigned not only shields. If there are enough enemies then your constant shield regen won't help you. "Enemies vs you" should be balanced. If there are enemies that can take your shield/hp before you can even breath then people will try something that doesn't really on numbers.

It's too much to ask so...

 

 

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57 minutes ago, quxier said:

A lot of systems should be redesigned not only shields. If there are enough enemies then your constant shield regen won't help you. "Enemies vs you" should be balanced. If there are enemies that can take your shield/hp before you can even breath then people will try something that doesn't really on numbers.

It's too much to ask so...

I’ve seen some players in the past asking for a toggle to up spawnrates in standard Starchart to more closely match SP.

I’ve wondered at times what would happen if it went the other way; a toggle to turn SP back to normal spawnrates

edit: Liked your quote in response to me; that’s an interesting one

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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