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The Idea That Has Been Long Abandoned, Teamwork.


Hayden11121
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This game in it's most recent state is nothing more then watching whatever frame has the highest damage nuke the whole room.

 

Being a Loki player, I used to be able to compete with the nukers, which at best was Saryn and her very mild Miasma range. I knew everyone could kill, but it wasn't that easy. Best chance, it would simply damage most monsters and stun them for a moment of great relief, such as Banshee's Sound Quake.

 

But, over the time the need for Coop players has been long forgotten.

 

That Rhino Stomp clearing the whole room isn't any less useful with a teammate, nor is Molecular Prime, World on Fire, or any ultimate, really.

 

Back when Dual Heat Swords were one of the best melee weapons and Hek and Gorgon was overpowered, a simple Decoy could change the tide of an entire battle. You had the enemies run near it, and Saryn's poor range on her great damage dealing ability wipe up the place.

But now this game has been focused on who can kill what the quickest. This is the only Coop game I've seen where it is insanely easier to play with more people then less. 

 

Some of it is weapons, some of it is our mindset, some of it is the grinding making us want to rush, but the most teamwork in this game anymore is

 

A) Shooting into Nova's Drop, or Nyx's Absorb. But that's just a courtesy, in most cases the enemies are about to die either way.

B) Using a defensive ability over players that need to be revived so you can revive them without fear of them dying. *Blessing, Snowglobe, etc*

C) Not killing targets that are about to be affected by Bladestorm *Just a courtesy*

D) Not using your ultimate when someone else is using theirs *Just a courtesy, again*

E) Not shooting the Mind Controlled/ Energy Vampire'd unit. *A lot of people kill them anyways*

 

 

 

The new bosses do not help, either. Every new addition of a boss has a damage cap that one fairly decent modded player can reach. Now having 4 amazingly modded players aim at the same time is just waisting everyone's time. The only reason other players are in the game are literally to take damage off of you, nothing more, at least, for boss fights.

 

The abilities in the game and the mods that encourage them. Having perma Invisibility, Snowglobe, or Bastille does not encourage teamwork. Sure, you need more teammates for more firepower, but having one frame able to handle himself sufficiently amongst a group of enemies that could potentially kill him in 3 seconds of direct fire isn't really needing the other players there, other then to get the job done quicker.

 

The removal of potentially supportive effects of abilities is astonishing to me, and leads to even less teamwork.

Such as Switch Teleport no longer being able to affect anyone unless they are just running / jumping. *Shooting, melee, being knocked down, bleeding out, does not work*

And the removal of the Pull ability on downed players for a more risky approach of pulling every enemy randomly around the room and nuking them.

 

I can't exactly give suggestions on how to fix this, because most of it is based off of the fact that the repetitive gameplay mixed with grind is a huge issue, other being the mod system, armor system *being reworked*, frame imbalance, predictable and either overpowered (Scorcher, Napalm) or underpowered enemies (Sawmen, Scorpions) and many other things that I'm not experienced enough in to give a real suggestion(s) worth listening too.

 

 

This is a coop game, shouldn't it act like it?

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well, I agree with you, and I disagree with you all at the same time. Room clearing abilities are great at low-mid level, but at high level those effectiveness of those abilities drop off immensely. That's when utility frames come in handy. so if you're running like jupiter, venus, mars, europa, etc. etc. you will see people abusing room clearing abilities and that can be annoying. Once you start to play high level areas, you'll realize the necessity of teams and that's where people start to work together more. That being said, outside of clans and friends, I will also say that not a lot of people take the time to work together, teamwork is something that is practiced. I hate to say it like this but maybe joining a clan or finding dedicated friends to play with will suit you better than asking DE to nerf CC frames, because CC abilities on some frames are what make them incredibly useful. Example:

 

molecular prime does just blow up mods, it also adds a damage multiplier to affected enemies that's useful against bosses.

 

rhino stomp while it does moderate damage, also causes enemies to float for a while allowing you to take them out, it's especially great against bosses because it causes them to lock up for the same period of time.

 

sound quake........well........it does moderate damage and gets rid of low level enemies, banshees truly useful ability is sonar.

 

So give it some more time and run with some friends. maybe that'll help ^_^

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Fighting Corpus/Grineer/Corrupted:

- Snow globe

- M Prime for double damage

- DakkaDakkaDakka

- Move on

 

Fighting Infested:

- Vortex/Well-placed Decoy

- (Optional) M Prime for DD

- DakkaDakkaDakka/BoomBoomBoom/-insert flame onomatopoeia here-

- Move on

 

Teamwork in a nutshell, regardless of enemy levels.

The only frames needed for teamwork are Nova (Double damage) and then a guard of sorts (Frost for projectiles, Vauban/Loki for infested). Banshee and Trinity are fantastic, but optional. (Banshee required if you plan on hitting levels that cause wep damage to fall into non-existence. Trinity required if you/allies are pro and play with 0 cover.)

Usefulness of all other frames is dependent on the weapon(s) they carry.

 

Note: I do not speak in any way for Nekros, as he's the only frame I haven't played (because I dont' feel like grinding so I can grind to start grinding).

Edited by MagnusFury
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This game is clearly not built around co-op play, even if advertised at such. And it's a shame.

 

I cannot count the number of abilities that counteract each other, most of them seem to have been designed around solo play and doesn't take into account other players.

 

Like vortex a while ago. Or Shadows of the Dead nowadays. They were such a hindrance to teamwork that I stopped using them entirely, if only for the sake of other players.

 

How many times have I seen vaubans setting a bastille around my vortex, or a Nyx casting Chaos when my bastille's up (/facepalm) 

And at the other end of the spectrum, how few times have i seen a loki using radial disarm to trap mobs into bastille? twice maybe, in 1000 hours playtime.

And then anyway, of course a Rhino/Nova just annihilate that wonderful teamwork by killing everything.

It's like building a deck of cards, and see it destroyed by one guy pressing the same button over and over. 

/cry in a corner

 

You can setup a party comp based on co-op play, without nukers, but it won't even be more efficient than just spamming ultinukes. 

And that's not normal. Co-op should be rewarded this way at least.

 

Most games I play nowadays with 4 players, everyone of them is doing their own thing in their corner without  caring about what the 3 others do.

Sometimes one of them dies and the others might run to save him. And that's it. It doesn't mean the mission will fail, but the amount of (social) interaction is kept to the minimum.

It's more like a 4 Solo players game.

 

And players get used to it. Door Camping, Spawn camping, generally just being far from the objective and do "your stuff". Even Leeching, which is one of the worst form of anti-cooperation you can imagine, is a common behaviour among the community. Well you can't blame them if everything dies before they even reach it :p, and the amount of grind you need for mastery can be discouraging...

 

Also, a great part of the selling argument for this game is self empowerment. Not group empowerment. And you can understand the feeling some players have when they single-handedly blow up a whole room full of mobs.

There is a large group of players who love the game for that. It seems DE understood that and keep catering to this group of players (and keep feeding them with Power Creep).

 

In short, I'm starting to dislike the moral views this game is taking, and the playerbase that will grow around those values, in which co-op is merely an option, in which you build competition amongst players (be the fastest, kill the most) in disregard of the objective of the mission or other players for that matter, in which lazy gameplay is promoted through press4 spamming, in which you can get rewards without actively participating, etc...

 

(@DE: If you give players tools to exploit the system, they will do it, without hesitation. You can only remove the tools or implement constraints. 

Constraints that this game lacks so much. But which is what defines a good system, and forces players to act within these constraints)

 

At least it's not p2win yet, heh?

 

I'm still hoping they will take radical actions against all of what I just talked about, even if it means displeasing a large portion of the playerbase (and probably myself)

Retake the game from the players hands and give it a well thought out, definite, polished shape that would hold in the future.

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Having the framework of a co-op game does not mean a co-op game exists.

 

There should be solo frames and there should be co-op frames, but the simple truth is mixing the two leads to asymmetrical output; but both need to exist.

 

As for omg Rhino, omg rhino does not exist after level 80, and anyone who says he does isn't particularly well versed in high level combat. Rhino also should have never gotten roar as a power. Not only does it not fit the rest of his theme, it helps create the ridiculousness that is sub-level50 combat.

 

The other edge of that sword is the WF community is f@cking ridiculous.

 

List any stereotype about A****** behavior and the WF community has an epidemic of it.

 

Trap Door heroes? Check

 

P2W Kill hogs? Check

 

Zoretards flying through the map in a Vangaurd Rhino so they can spawn everything under the sun and leave it to kill the hapless bastards behind them and claim no credits at the end of a T3 capture? Check

 

Spawn Camp Heroes? Check

 

Whiteknights spamming the squad chat that the two people actually escorting the hostage against three level 120 bombards need to go back and revive their friend who insisted on bringing an unleveled Mag into a random level 100+ alert? Check

 

Leechers? Check

 

Players who actively use their powers to troll the rest? Check

 

And the amount of active curbs or contraindications against this behavior in this game?

 

None.

 

You're told to file a report and then pretty much "deal with it" and it's rather hilariously apparent from the last two livestreams DE's upper management is absolutely unwilling to acknowledge that these even exist at the levels of occurrence they do, cause muh marketing and cashflow; meanwhile the livestreams get troll and hate bombed, and they have to black out the chat in midstream and Primetime only has games with pre-approved guests for rather obvious reasons.

 

Even if DE rolls over the entire playspace at rather significant cost to encourage co-op, the playerbase obviously isn't interested in it.

Edited by -Kittens-
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yeah, a lot of ultimates MUST be reworked into mild CC. As it is now the only thing that keeps them in check is how broken the armor scaling is.

 

And I would not really like to know what happens when they give us Armor 2.0 and I can effectively Stomp or MPrime even level 150 heavies.

 

That aand the reworking of other abilities, especially of SUPPORT frames like Trinity.

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I noticed this as well, but I was a newbie and didn't realize that this wasn't the case at high levels when I got there which a lot of people fail to realize I think. I am "endgame" type of person so worrying about sub 50 content is pretty trivial I feel. However, that is just my opinion. High level defense and surv. missions do require teamwork, and you can't just face roll stuff once the waves start pilling up.

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I noticed this as well, but I was a newbie and didn't realize that this wasn't the case at high levels when I got there which a lot of people fail to realize I think. I am "endgame" type of person so worrying about sub 50 content is pretty trivial I feel. However, that is just my opinion. High level defense and surv. missions do require teamwork, and you can't just face roll stuff once the waves start pilling up.

Considering most of the game is trivial, the highest level stuff is taken out easily with Nova using Molecular Prime to double the damage of any other ability.

 

Now Rhino Stomp w/ Blind Rage does 2x the amount of damage with M Prime, and that's all the teamwork for now.

 

Unless you're talking about extremely high level defense, involving Trinity, Frost, Nova and Vauban/Nyx, but even then it's basically "Cast your ability whenever you can"

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Adding coop play would entail DE focusing an update on gameplay, tactics and strategy... which would be a miracle since they have become entrenched in a development cycle completely removed from relevancy to the player experience.  They remain insulated from the unactionable and hostile feedback here on the forums from all you wicked, terrible, beautiful, heartless bastards.

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Agree with the apathy thing.  Too many concerns have passed by the wayside while superficial stuff get's hyped, like events. I would rather have no events and a good game instead of what we have which is a mediocre game and mediocre events.  But yeah, whatever happened to synergistic mod combos?  I haven't seen one 500 hrs.. going to have to call a fail there DE.  

 

The original, low level, open spaced grineer reactor defense maps were pretty cooperative.  But you actually had enough space to work as a team.  Too many corridors.  

 

I just thought of a defense map with four mini-reactors in a huge open space.  Interspersed throughout the map would be tall flat columns you could use to move quickly about (wall-jump).  As long as one reactor remained up you would be able to complete a round..  It wasn't very hard for me to think of that and I bet it would be fun.  Which leads me to my next point which is what I feel is at the base of most of Warframes problems.  The lead designers never seem to have any good ideas!  For chrissakes, think of something fun for us to do, it's a game already!!

Edited by alocrius
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i wouldn't say that teamplay doesn't exist at all. The issue is that every player with half decent gear can faceroll lvl 1-70 content.

We had guns/abilities that could do that months ago and the new tools DE gave us trivialized normal content even more.

There is not much need for teamwork, better spam 4 someone might steal your kills.

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Splinter Cell: Blacklist has better emphasis on Coop, a coordinated team of spies can clear out a room, but even with a full team of spies who don't have mics, the communication is still there regardless, one spy emps the room to blackout the lights, another spy heads toward the objective to hack it and marks the room for enemies, another spy shocks an enemy with his shock xbow and the last spy takes out said enemy.

 

In Warframe, it's who can run the fastest and press 4. Or just who can run the fastest to the exit leaving mobs of enemies to other players who probably aren't well equipped to deal with the lot.

Edited by __Kanade__
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This game often feels like Left 4 Dead for me, from a design stand-point. Waves of chaff-enemies, with occasional heavies thrown in the mix to spice things up. But I'm afraid the similarities end there, as far as truly threatening enemies go.

 

In L4D, even the chaff can be quite dangerous, and the heavies required great team work. The enemies were extremely aggressive, and able to quickly and fluidly move over the level's terrain to attack players in a way that kept you constantly on edge and fighting hard for your life. Warframe's enemies are, unfortunately, just moderately smart, mobile turrets. And harder difficulty just means more HP, and dmg.

To be fair, more HP and dmg is pretty much what EVERY game does to increase difficulty (minus racing and fighting games). That would be totally acceptable if the underlying fights were intriguing and well crafted already.

 

As fun as it is, at first, to wade through hundreds of guys in minutes like a plague of death. It does get rather old when you realize there is no proper fight going on.

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What kittens said. Some frames need to be single player oriented and some need to be co op. I know I barely co op anyway since I'm sub-50. One thing they brought up in LS 17 was that they acknowledge how level 0 players are getting paired up with stupidly powerful farmers, so hopefully they do something about that.

 

Though I don't know, I've only been here a couple months so I don't know the pattern of DE's work priorities. It does seem like they're more dedicated to dropping new content instead of balancing what's there. Conversely I do want to see new content- environments, at the very least, but I think they have enough warframes and weapons for now. Their next frame is interesting but I want bug fixes and balance more.

 

Well, that and new environments, because dank old battleships get old after a while.

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This game often feels like Left 4 Dead for me, from a design stand-point. Waves of chaff-enemies, with occasional heavies thrown in the mix to spice things up. But I'm afraid the similarities end there, as far as truly threatening enemies go.

 

In L4D, even the chaff can be quite dangerous, and the heavies required great team work. The enemies were extremely aggressive, and able to quickly and fluidly move over the level's terrain to attack players in a way that kept you constantly on edge and fighting hard for your life. Warframe's enemies are, unfortunately, just moderately smart, mobile turrets. And harder difficulty just means more HP, and dmg.

To be fair, more HP and dmg is pretty much what EVERY game does to increase difficulty (minus racing and fighting games). That would be totally acceptable if the underlying fights were intriguing and well crafted already.

 

As fun as it is, at first, to wade through hundreds of guys in minutes like a plague of death. It does get rather old when you realize there is no proper fight going on.

 

Yeah, right now this game reminds me of Phantasy Star Online. I poured whole days into that game, but it was never very complicated and told its entire story through text boxes.

When DERebecca(I think) started talking about revamping the Sabotage missions, she talked about how spawning would increase until it peaked around the moment of the objective's destruction. To me the subtext was "spawning = difficulty". On the one hand, being a super badass space ninja means being able to take on overwhelming odds, but on the other, if it feels like everyone's just tossing numbers at you then there's no difference between the infested and the corpus, etc.

 

Different battle tactics for different factions would be real nice. The easiest analogies I could think of involve warhammer 40k- Corpus would be focused on tech and tactics like the Tau, Grineer would be doing things like either the Orkz or Spess Mehreens and Infested would be, well, Tyranids.

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So, regarding teamwork, I see the main difficulty being on the communication side. Which is, namely, that there kind of isn't one.

 

Yes, we have the text chat and there's a voice chat button in there somewhere. But when was the last time you ever saw anyone use those to communicate a plan in the middle of a stage? Text chat isn't viable at all because of the pace of the average level, and I'm betting most people don't even know there's a voice-chat system IN the game.

 

But it makes sense, doesn't it? If one wishes to collaborate, one must have a voice. One must speak. Yet the in-game chat is underused and just about forgotten. Even if the gameplay is changed to support team play, I feel that it won't make any difference if people won't talk to each other to actually make any plans. And honestly, that's as much on us as it is on DE. Maybe even more so.

 

I propose that, instead of focusing on frames, abilities and mechanics, we focus on the things that will help foster communication and team play. More stable, conventionally accessible lobbies. A more transparent friend system. A mention in the tutorial that yes, there is a chat button, and maybe you should use it once in a while because talking is good. I feel that by strengthening these mechanics, one can strengthen the bonds of the community that uses them, and in turn take a step in creating a community where teamwork is valued over lone-wolf play.

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I completely agree with this. I know that high-level missions actually have elements of teamwork on them but a) it's not even that much better, people just use 'frames with greater utility and do their talking with their guns, and b) there's pretty much no reason to run any mission past level 70 other than to complete alerts.

It also seems to me like the Warframes and their skill sets are designed with a solo game in mind. Abilities that allow you to win a battle with a single cast, whether that be a nuke like Miasma or a huge AoE debuff like Bastille, Radial Disarm or M. Prime, mean that teamwork isn't necessary for anything other than having some revive-monkeys around. Teamwork in games usually comes from having limited capabilities and resources. Warframe gives you all the ammo, energy and damage potential you could ever need.

Games that actually encourage co-op play, like the Payday series make is so not everyone can do everything, your resources are limited and you need to watch your back, Warframe is too far detached from this idea by this point. It might even be why we have so many solo players, myself included.

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So, regarding teamwork, I see the main difficulty being on the communication side. Which is, namely, that there kind of isn't one.

 

Yes, we have the text chat and there's a voice chat button in there somewhere. But when was the last time you ever saw anyone use those to communicate a plan in the middle of a stage? Text chat isn't viable at all because of the pace of the average level, and I'm betting most people don't even know there's a voice-chat system IN the game.

 

But it makes sense, doesn't it? If one wishes to collaborate, one must have a voice. One must speak. Yet the in-game chat is underused and just about forgotten. Even if the gameplay is changed to support team play, I feel that it won't make any difference if people won't talk to each other to actually make any plans. And honestly, that's as much on us as it is on DE. Maybe even more so.

 

I propose that, instead of focusing on frames, abilities and mechanics, we focus on the things that will help foster communication and team play. More stable, conventionally accessible lobbies. A more transparent friend system. A mention in the tutorial that yes, there is a chat button, and maybe you should use it once in a while because talking is good. I feel that by strengthening these mechanics, one can strengthen the bonds of the community that uses them, and in turn take a step in creating a community where teamwork is valued over lone-wolf play.

 

yeah, here's the thing about Comunication in this game... You don't really need it. You see, every mission type have a waypoint where we're suposed to be at. Follow the waypoint, shoot stuff and you're generally good.

 

Think about it for a second, what would you say to people, even IF you were directly mind-melded with someone else? What kind of strategic coordination is there in shooting that guy? "Ok, shoot this guy. Now shoot this guy. Now shoot this guy."

 

See? Without a proper mechanic that requires comunication in order to function, you don't really need a comunication system at all.

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In an effort to make the game still doable/enjoyable to people with bad connections DE decided long ago to make solo play an option. That is fine in itself and not a bad notion however because of this they can not do anything drastic that involve/requires much co-op.

Now I love the fact that this game is doable solo and to be honest if it moved towards forcing team play I would probably quit. This is because I've learned that having my fun tied down to the abilities and or schedule of others sucks monkey balls from years of mmo and other team based games.

For me this game is more like a first person version of an action rpg like diablo or path of exile. Where the goal is to get as powerful as you can and grind for items to make your character more powerful.

Problem is characters got too power AND at least I know in diablo when you group up the enemies actually scale up in power they hit harder and have higher health when in groups. This game lacks that.

This would possibly discourage groups in warframe but to be honest after a certain point the only reason I see to group up in warframe is SOLELY to get more enemies to spawn for potentially more mod drops. There are ways to fix that though like really upping the percentage that better mods drop in group play if they enemies are scaling up in power as well or other things.

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Yeah, right now this game reminds me of Phantasy Star Online. I poured whole days into that game, but it was never very complicated and told its entire story through text boxes.

 

Yes the game reminds me heavily of PSO as well. And I poured years into that game on the Xbox. I even still have friends all over the world from that game. But as limited as that game was, it still required teamwork. Challenge mode required EXTREME teamwork. And the ability to meet and socially interact with people was much better in PSO (built in voice-chat on xbox, lobbies, no eff'n connection issues)

 

Don't get me wrong PSO had it's issues, big glaring ones. So does Warframe. But I stuck with it because I was in love with it's potential. Potential it never lived up too, not even in PSU, which is where I finally jumped ship. Warframe has potential out the butt. This could be one of the slickest games on the market with a little more elbow grease and tough decisions. 

 

I think that's why us fans get so upset in these forums anyway. We see the game's potential for greatness and want it to achieve. Like nagging annoying parents, we may be negative sounding but we want whats best. DE should see that in these posts. If we were just negative because we hated the game, we'd go somewhere else and not say a thing.

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