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Forma will cripple warframe


DogeManX
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TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

See the source image<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

 

 

 

EDIT: I should've been more clear that my problem isn't with forma itself but rather with the time it takes for it to build. While you can f2p farm 300 forma bps, it'll still take around ~300 days to build it. If I had to make a suggestion on how to make it better, I'd just make the uncommon forma in relics built. That way the uncommon forma aren't just a feelsbad for drops and there's a way to directly farm for forma. 

 

I dont think forma is a pay to win system either. Warframe is really good with keeping out p2w systems. It seems tencent isn't influencing them too much. But there's definitely potential for forma to become a pay to win system with just a few changes. 

 

Also apologies for the clickbaity title. It gets people to click onto the thread and promotes more discussion. I know forma won't actually cripple warframe lol.

 

EDIT 2 (8/30): I saw a lot of discussion on how changing forma would impact the bottom line of Warframe and take away a major income source. However, I think if forma gains are boosted by a little, it would actually make warframe more money.

I'll sum up my thoughts in 3 points:

1. More forma means more weapons and warframes people will mod and want to keep leading to more slot purchases (cannot be f2p earned except by special events)

2. More forma will promote more polarizations which increases the playtime of the average player (If you have weapons to level, you're more likely to play longer)

3. It'll create a more satisfying experience when using weapons (more forma = potential for bigger numbers which makes weapons more satisfying)

Point 1 directly deals with monetization and how income flow will be either unchanged or bolstered through alternative sales. Points 2 and 3 deal with player engagement. In a multiplayer game, engagement is one of the most important things to keep up. A multiplayer game with a lack of community severely cripples the game and its appeal. Higher number of people playing will mean that more people will play with them and make the game feel alive and vibrant.

Again I am not saying forma should flow abundantly,  rather, I'd like for it to make a small but noticeable difference in the day to day warframe experience.

A principle of something perfectly designed is that you won't notice it. The forma system is well designed as it is, but there are flaws and annoyances people can notice. If those can be ironed out, it'll lead to a healthier warframe experience.

Edited by DogeManX
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*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

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1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

It's about the completionist mindset. I realize you dont need to fit 5 forma onto it, but for it to only grant the max amount of xp at 5 forma is what I'm trying to get at.

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1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

Well some folks want the mastery or maybe they'll use all of them.

If had to change something about forma it would be the silver forma, either making it built or X2 forma

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You might have a point if there was an obligation to Forma everything to the max other than one's own desires to "100%" everything.

Since the extra ranks of Kuva/Tenent weapons aren't even remotely necessary to hit MR30 and Legend ranks are bragging rights at best there is no reason to get them solely for mastery. Thus again there is no drive to get and spend all that Forma unless the player themselves wants to making the entire thing completely optional.

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1 minute ago, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

I haven't even got every Kuva nor I haven't touched (and don't want to touch) Sisters (puns, puns everywhere).

OP seeing Zaws/kitguns will have heart attack.

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I’d probably fit into that midgame player category; at the moment I find the overall amount of things available to get kind of overwhelming, so I’m far better off not getting lost in the big picture. I sort of just vaguely play towards a weapon or other item, and at the moment Forma isn’t really a huge concern for me.

I figure once I get a weapon, I’ll go a few rounds with it, get a feel for whether I like it or not, and then decide if I want to bring it into higher-level content, and that’s when I’d consider forma-ing it.

I’ve been sitting on my rank 34 Toxin Kuva Tonkor for a while now (months) because I haven’t felt the need to forma it too much, and my Argonak and Lato are decidedly my most-forma’d weapons as I want to take them everywhere

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
Typo, phrasing
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I disagree, I think it is actually a big part of what makes this game work as a F2P model. 

Does that mean it can't be tweaked here or there? Not saying that, but I don't think big changes are needed. 

Adding up the whole number of forma needed isn't really valid here, as you can always buy more with plat through F2P or credit card means, and the whole point of them requiring build time is to partly slow progression. You aren't just supposed to immediately blow through getting and forma'ing all the new Tenet and Kuva weapons everytime they come out. It burns out players and leaves them with nothing to do. 

And it is not like DE doesn't notice and work to mitigate this for F2P people at times. For example, this Nightwave, corresponding nicely with the release of the new Tenet/Lich weapons, they are giving three packs of three built forma throughout the rewards. For a F2Per that's almost two maxed kuva/tenet weapons right there without any build times or trading stuff for plat so they can buy, and you can get more if you are good at Lua Music puzzle. 

Unless you want to burn yourself out, it isn't a problem, and if you DO want to burn yourself out, you can always sell stuff for plat and just buy a bunch, that's how F2P games work. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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I think that now it is quite easy for new players to save resources, you know that grinner and corpus weapons will eventually have kuva and tenet versions, therefore there is no reason to dedicate resources to the basic versions of these categories. Even wraith and prism weapons are mostly outdated weapons waiting to be replaced.
And the iconic weapons of the warframes will receive a prime version so you can also save the resources in them.

The only unknown are the infested weapons as they have never had alternative versions but it is to be expected that eventually we will have infested equivalents of the liches and the sisters so investing resources in infested weapons is also something to avoid currently.

What still seems super painful to me is that laboratory weapons require formas to be manufactured.

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1 hour ago, DogeManX said:

TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

See the source image<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

You raise.... a point. However you’ve employed a bit of underhanded, creative truth telling.

You talk about how the Tenet weapons require 75 forma in total, and then you continue to say that this is a problem for new players?

There isnt a single “new player” in the game that has all the tenet weapons. None of them are experiencing the problem you’ve invented. None of them are facing despair because it’s going to take 2-3 months for them to forma all of them to the max.

Your math may be correct, but you’re using it to provide context to a situation that doesn’t exist.

At most, most people will want maybe a handful of the tenet weapons. Absolutely some people will want all of them, but maxing ALL the tenet weapons with forma? That’s just kind of ridiculous. Like, on the same level as people who want to have multiple versions of every mod ranked up to every level (1/5-2/5-3/5-4/5-5/5) for the sake of having a “complete collection.”

Edit: actually, let’s contextualise this differently. Imagine you play borderlands 2, you just got Tiny Tina’s assault on dragons keep, and for whatever reason you decide you want ALL the gear from that expansion.

How long do you imagine that’ll take you to achieve?

Cause I’ve spent about a total of 300-400 hours in Tiny Tina’s DLC, a lot of that farming the dragon raid boss, and I don’t even have half the items from that expansion.

What about world of Warcraft? Trying to farm all the gear added in the cataclysm expansion? That could take you years.

My point is, the average player isn’t intended to farm for all of these items. And even if they did, it’s unreasonable to expect a player to want to max all of them with forma, because I can promise you no single player will be using all 100% of the tenet weapons equally.

So I repeat, while your math is accurate, you’re using it to prop up a false narrative.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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3 hours ago, DogeManX said:

TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

See the source image<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

It really feels like a cash grab.

 

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3 hours ago, DogeManX said:

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

None of that has changed, in essence.  In addition to everything you're describing, there's a just a (proportionately) few weapons on top of that, that require more forma  if somebody feels like they absolutely have to get the mastery.   If they want to get the most possible performance out of the weapon, the forma investment is no worse than normal weapons, and probably better.  So really it's just a mastery issue.

As far as that goes, I think there's probably enough other items available to master that somebody starting now can get to MR30 without maxing a single Kuva/Tenet weapon.  If not, they'll certainly be able  to do so soon.

I do agree with you that some new players are probably daunted looking at these weapons' requirements.  But I consider that largely the fault of a system where the weapons are available way too early.  And DE could be a little less stingy with built forma from sources other than the market.  But I'd feel the same even if Kuva/Tenet weapons didn't exist.

Edited by Tiltskillet
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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

It really feels like a cash grab.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

this Nightwave, corresponding nicely with the release of the new Tenet/Lich weapons, they are giving three packs of three built forma throughout the rewards. For a F2Per that's almost two maxed kuva/tenet weapons right there without any build times or trading stuff for plat so they can buy, and you can get more if you are good at Lua Music puzzle. 

Also how dare a company that lets you play the game for free put in mechanics that encourage those who would rather pay to skip to spend some money! What a filthy cash grab!!! :angry:

/s

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I have a surplus of almost 400 built Forma... they've accumulated over years of building them daily, earning them from Nightwave, and Lua Music Test/Cervantes and possibly GoTL events (but never Plague Star, I never ever bought Forma in Plague Star!).

Only Forma and Potato the stuff that you like and you will stockpile tons of Forma too. Don't spend Forma on Kuva and Tenet weapons that you don't like. It's not worth it.

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Ignoring all the time one has to build, earn through nightwave and farm plat for forma packs, and the completionist mindset which is a self-imposed challenge that's supposed to be difficult-

You really only need 3-4 main guns of each loadout slot and a handful of specialist frames to play endgame content.

That really isn't all that much forma. Anyone playing for a decent amount of time can get this done, maybe a little more for an ultra-efficient eidolon killing getup or other specific gear, which is... the game? That's the point of the game is to build your loadouts? Not have everything at once instantly?

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2 minutes ago, nslay said:

I have a surplus of almost 400 built Forma... they've accumulated over years of building them daily, earning them from Nightwave, and Lua Music Test/Cervantes and possibly GoTL events (but never Plague Star, I never ever bought Forma in Plague Star!).

Only Forma and Potato the stuff that you like and you will stockpile tons of Forma too. Don't spend Forma on Kuva and Tenet weapons that you don't like. It's not worth it.

Very good advice. 

Unless you have decided reaching max mastery rank possible is a personal goal, and even then you can leave them for the very end. 

It's not just the forma either, but I'd add that the average player just isn't leveling that efficiently, and that it can take a disproportionate amount of time for little benefit. Maxing them feels psychologically satisfying, but unless you need that space for build flexibility and you really like it, you are putting yourself through a hamster wheel that isn't even connected to a generator... okay, maybe not an accurate analogy, but its been a long day lol. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Unless you have decided reaching max mastery rank possible is a personal goal, and even then you can leave them for the very end. 

DE will continue to add new Warframes and weapons in the future. You don't really need that extra 1000 standing from spending 5 forma on weapons you don't like... I'm close to Legendary 1 without even caring about Kuva and Tenet weapons (and I haven't even farmed the Tenet weapons yet!). I did spend some forma on Kuva weapons I like... but not necessarily 5 forma!

I mean, if you're a completionist and you want to see N / N mastered weapons on all tabs... well, that's bad for you!

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3 minutes ago, nslay said:

DE will continue to add new Warframes and weapons in the future. You don't really need that extra 1000 standing from spending 5 forma on weapons you don't like... I'm close to Legendary 1 without even caring about Kuva and Tenet weapons (and I haven't even farmed the Tenet weapons yet!). I did spend some forma on Kuva weapons I like... but not necessarily 5 forma!

I mean, if you're a completionist and you want to see N / N mastered weapons on all tabs... well, that's bad for you!

I'll be honest even with my ocd making it hard for me to look at something that could be fully leveled and isn't, if I don't like it that much I just can't be fussed about it, because I have limited time to play with my current schedule, and it just isn't worth my time with how many other things I can/have/want to do, etc. 

Like you said with all the items available now and continuing, it will only be easier and easier to pick and choose what kuva/lich/future infested level 40 weapons? you fully max out while still being able to reach at least the first legendary rank or so. A game like Warframe thrives on always releasing new content, it is the way of things. So unless you need to "tick all the boxes" to not feel anxiety/distress/or a lack of completeness to paraphrase what you said, it is best to just focus on what you really like. 

 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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I don't disagree with anyones frustrations or criticisms with how Forma works in the game... personally when I started playing, but especially when the Kuva weapons were a thing, I realised that Forma is something the game wants me to earn/build but also buy. Specifically the 3x Forma (as opposed to the single, which in comparison is a bad deal) So its not really a source of frustration or annoyance for myself. So I already trained my brain to associate Forma with Relics/Selling, especially when a new Prime comes out. You get new stuff, you sell new stuff, you buy Forma. Sisters or Parvos update? I like these new weapons? I use these new weapons to do quests that I can sell, I buy Forma etc

This isn't an implicit endorsement of the current system, since I think it could be improved, but I also don't think the current system is the worst either, like 1 Forma a day by itself would be annoyingly slow, and so yes... the game is designed to make you want to buy Forma with Plat... and then thats another topic that could spin off into a discussion... (again personally I was originally really hesitant about trading with other players to get plat, and having to 'rely' on that to get stuff I considered 'basic', but I eventually got over that, especially when it seems like its designed/balanced around that) and thats another discussion as well... but yeah. 

Often though its really just about our personal preference and threshold about such things. Like I loved the Sisters of Parvos update, but I still haven't actually maxed out all the weapons yet... even though many are my favourite weapons... I have the Forma, but I am just taking a break from the game. I don't have a strong desire to max them out for completion satisfaction. I enjoy them so I know eventually I will, so might as well wait for Nidus Prime or New War to get around to it, if I run out of Forma, I'll just... do stuff that I can sell for Plat. Some of us get to the point we don't want to do stuff to get Plat and thats understandable and fair, but I think that be a sign we need to take a break (again though, this isn't to suggest the current system is perfect either)

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As someone who still needs a quadrillion forma (and also as someone who wants to eventually have all kuva/tenet weapons at 40) the only thing I disagree about with the current implementation of forma is having forma bps in the uncommon slots in relics. That's an enormous feelbad. If it was my goal to get the maximum amount of forma a day it wouldn't be particularly difficult to farm up 10 of them daily (9 from plat, 1 from building). Plenty of things are straight up unavailable for much longer times, plat or no plat. I think those are way worse. Most notably, but not exclusively, daily login milestone rewards. Primed Sure Footed is particularly egregious.

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