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Forma will cripple warframe


DogeManX
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Some people see forma as re-playability... I see it as a waste of time past a certain point.

MR past 16 already means nothing, so if you've forma'ed something to the point where it has its full build, any additional forma becomes a pointless waste of time for me. Its not "fun" to forma gear, especially warframes, kuva weapons, and tenet weapons.

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On 2021-08-22 at 6:46 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

I disagree, I think it is actually a big part of what makes this game work as a F2P model. 

Does that mean it can't be tweaked here or there? Not saying that, but I don't think big changes are needed. 

Adding up the whole number of forma needed isn't really valid here, as you can always buy more with plat through F2P or credit card means, and the whole point of them requiring build time is to partly slow progression. You aren't just supposed to immediately blow through getting and forma'ing all the new Tenet and Kuva weapons everytime they come out. It burns out players and leaves them with nothing to do. 

And it is not like DE doesn't notice and work to mitigate this for F2P people at times. For example, this Nightwave, corresponding nicely with the release of the new Tenet/Lich weapons, they are giving three packs of three built forma throughout the rewards. For a F2Per that's almost two maxed kuva/tenet weapons right there without any build times or trading stuff for plat so they can buy, and you can get more if you are good at Lua Music puzzle. 

Unless you want to burn yourself out, it isn't a problem, and if you DO want to burn yourself out, you can always sell stuff for plat and just buy a bunch, that's how F2P games work. 

I agree here. Typically, I notice most requests are due to "rushframe" which is, by default, a dead end mindset. Rushing through things is bad for the player but absolutely horrible for the game and devs. There is no rush. When DE gives us a hookup like Plague Star, just enjoy the hookup and save those forma for the endgame weapons. Either way, no rush.

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You don't need to format or catalyst most weapons, there's nothing exclusive behind over rank 30 weapons. Most of your ranks will come from fodder weapons, most nemesis weapons will replace another weapon which you won't need development, and nemesis weapons require far less Forma to meet your build requirement than normal weapons. 

I would prefer to have faster forma production for the breadth of content available as well, even allowing 2 forma to be built at a time would be a huge improvement, but nemesis weapons aren't a problem. 

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The requirement to forma these weapons so many times to get all the exp out of them is the real issue.

Not a lot of weapons even need 5 forma to fit a build you want on them with the normal 30 ranks, and these give you a full 33% boost in capacity for formaing them 5 times? on top of some of them already having polarities, It's extraordinarily excessive. 5 ranks per forma with only a requirement of 2 per weapon to get the full effect out would be far more reasonable.

The crafting time is really annoying. I wish it was lowered even to just 18 or 20 hours so it's a bit more flexible. Enough that you can't build 2 in 1 day but if you start building one late at night you're not screwed into needing to skip a day. I'd like to see this with most 24 hour timers. Most of the time day long timers really mean more than a day cus frequently by the time you're able to claim it it's usually too late to actually use it on that day. This applies to warframes' 3 day times too, 2 and 1/2 days realistically means it'll still take a person 3 days to be able to claim it, But they can claim it at any time on the 4th day instead of needing to wait until the moment they started crafting it 3 days ago. Which will typically have been at then end of their regular play time thus forcing them to wait an extra day anyways.

Even if you're really diligent about claiming them at the exact time you started them the day before, you're slowly going to walk that time forward until you need to skip a day because you physically can't claim it on the next day because it finishes too late. So it really isn't "one a day" but more like 0.7-0.9 a day depending on your consistency with claiming and crafting them. This is exacerbated hugely when you actually have a job, and so two points in time where an 8+ hour delay is forced to happen.

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12 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

The requirement to forma these weapons so many times to get all the exp out of them is the real issue.

Not a lot of weapons even need 5 forma to fit a build you want on them with the normal 30 ranks, and these give you a full 33% boost in capacity for formaing them 5 times? on top of some of them already having polarities, It's extraordinarily excessive. 5 ranks per forma with only a requirement of 2 per weapon to get the full effect out would be far more reasonable.

The crafting time is really annoying. I wish it was lowered even to just 18 or 20 hours so it's a bit more flexible. Enough that you can't build 2 in 1 day but if you start building one late at night you're not screwed into needing to skip a day. I'd like to see this with most 24 hour timers. Most of the time day long timers really mean more than a day cus frequently by the time you're able to claim it it's usually too late to actually use it on that day. This applies to warframes' 3 day times too, 2 and 1/2 days realistically means it'll still take a person 3 days to be able to claim it, But they can claim it at any time on the 4th day instead of needing to wait until the moment they started crafting it 3 days ago. Which will typically have been at then end of their regular play time thus forcing them to wait an extra day anyways.

Even if you're really diligent about claiming them at the exact time you started them the day before, you're slowly going to walk that time forward until you need to skip a day because you physically can't claim it on the next day because it finishes too late. So it really isn't "one a day" but more like 0.7-0.9 a day depending on your consistency with claiming and crafting them. This is exacerbated hugely when you actually have a job, and so two points in time where an 8+ hour delay is forced to happen.

23 Hours...  Forma takes 23 Hours to build, not 24...  A change that was made SPECIFICALLY so that players could get them immediately upon logging in the same time (or a bit sooner) the next day.  

And nobody NEEDS to get all the exp out of the Kuva/Tenet weapons.  They are endgame content, and as such aren't meant to be something "needed" for anything, quite frankly.

It's nice to have them fully maxed. It's nice to have all the mastery...  but it's not "needed".  

And if you're just a completionist, well... that's a self-imposed requirement, not dev-imposed...so can't really blame them.

Regardless, DE is not responsible for giving us the most efficient gameplay possible...  that's what we might WANT as players, but that's not in the best interest of the game.  DE gives us what keeps us logging in daily, and in some cases what incentivizes plat purchases.

Because at the end of the day, DE is a BUSINESS, not just our personal fun-time providers.  They have LOTS of bills to pay, and given that everything in Warframe is FREE, they've gotta put the squeeze on SOMEWHERE.

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11 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

23 Hours...  Forma takes 23 Hours to build, not 24...  A change that was made SPECIFICALLY so that players could get them immediately upon logging in the same time (or a bit sooner) the next day. 

Ah I must've missed that change, that's my bad. Even so it's still difficult to manage logging in within an hour of the same time every day. I doubt cutting it down to 20 would hurt their bottom line all that much especially since at least half the money games like this make is from whales, which I doubt even bother to farm forma blueprints anyways.
 

15 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

And nobody NEEDS to get all the exp out of the Kuva/Tenet weapons.  They are endgame content, and as such aren't meant to be something "needed" for anything, quite frankly.

Nobody needs to play the game ether. It's in their best interest to make it as enjoyable as possible.

 

16 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Because at the end of the day, DE is a BUSINESS, not just our personal fun-time providers.  They have LOTS of bills to pay, and given that everything in Warframe is FREE, they've gotta put the squeeze on SOMEWHERE.

People use this as a defense far too much. Yes it's a free game, making updates to it takes a lot of work, they need to make money, we get it. Most of what I suggested would have next to no negative effect on their income whatsoever tho. With the exception of my argument that these weapons shouldn't need 5 forma to reach max mastery, which to me is more an issue of, you would never need 5 forma on a rank 40 weapon so it's incredibly redundant (I almost always use one of those forma to remove a polarity). But yeah that would put a dent in their forma sales. As for the crafting timers though, the people that care about it enough to bring it up are the people that aren't paying around it already and are completionists. Which is an absolutely minuscule amount of the playerbase that is not contributing money ether way. But to be clear, less restrictive timers would still improve the overall feel of the game for everyone, not just those players.

Once you actually get to a point in the game where you can't progress on mastery any other way but this huge forma investment, it's pretty difficult to even obtain and forma them faster than you're actually building the forma. It took me a week just to get a sister with the tenet weapon I wanted because it takes so damn long just to spawn one sister candidate. It would just make the game feel a little bit more pleasant if they were a little more lenient on some of these timers.

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13 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Once you actually get to a point in the game where you can't progress on mastery any other way but this huge forma investment, it's pretty difficult to even obtain and forma them faster than you're actually building the forma. It took me a week just to get a sister with the tenet weapon I wanted because it takes so damn long just to spawn one sister candidate. It would just make the game feel a little bit more pleasant if they were a little more lenient on some of these timers.

Only the player puts this burden on themselves, period.

There is no mechanical need to even get passed MR16, you can use all items TMK at that point.

For two decades I have watched players of SaaS games all come up with so many ideas that they think are just phenomenal ... and almost all of them are simply ways to change the games to make the player get stuff faster, it's all just impatience from my POV.

I have been playing for two years, solo.

I have built a Dojo, a Railjack, Forma'ed all the frames I want, all the weapons I want (to this point) and I still have like 30 forma and plenty of relics to get more.

Since I now it can all be done, solo even, I know that the players whining over getting things faster are doing just that.

Getting Forma is also way faster and easier to obtain IME than so many people here claim. All you have to do is crack a few relics. I always have piles of Forma recipes without even trying.

Players do this hype-peer pressure-gotta catch 'em all do this to themselves.

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On 2021-08-22 at 9:48 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

 

Also how dare a company that lets you play the game for free put in mechanics that encourage those who would rather pay to skip to spend some money! What a filthy cash grab!!! :angry:

/s

Being free to play doesnt mean a person cant find certain monetization strategies obnoxious. 

That also doesnt mean that a person cant find any particular grind to be obnoxious.

 

I havent been here since day one but my understanding is forma as we know it has stayed the same for far longer than kuva/tenet weapons. Then theres galvanized mods and umbral mods and more primed mods and the fact DE got rid of plague star and didnt put the crafted forma reward into something else. 

 

Im not gonna rage quit or call DE EA or anything but i think its a fair criticism. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Being free to play doesnt mean a person cant find certain monetization strategies obnoxious. 

That also doesnt mean that a person cant find any particular grind to be obnoxious.

 

I havent been here since day one but my understanding is forma as we know it has stayed the same for far longer than kuva/tenet weapons. Then theres galvanized mods and umbral mods and more primed mods and the fact DE got rid of plague star and didnt put the crafted forma reward into something else. 

 

Im not gonna rage quit or call DE EA or anything but i think its a fair criticism. 

 

 

1. How is it "obnoxious" to have an EXTREMELY cheap material (Forma) be offered for very little plat (35 for 3 built), when you ALSO give it away all the time (there are 9 in this Nightwave alone), offer ways to get it to drop (certain puzzles), make FREE blueprints to build endless amounts of them, AND even allow players to freely trade your PREMIUM currency such that they can bypass paying you any money whatsoever with just a few minutes' work in Trade?

2. Forma having existed for a long while doesn't mean that they need to be changed.  There's nothing broken about them. See point 1.

3. DE gave us a GIFT in making free, pre-built forma available as a reward in PS.  They are under NO obligation to do so again, just as they were under no obligation to do so the first time.   This is an issue of entitlement and lookin' a gift-horse in the mouth.

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6 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Only the player puts this burden on themselves, period.

There is no mechanical need to even get passed MR16, you can use all items TMK at that point.

For two decades I have watched players of SaaS games all come up with so many ideas that they think are just phenomenal ... and almost all of them are simply ways to change the games to make the player get stuff faster, it's all just impatience from my POV.

I have been playing for two years, solo.

I have built a Dojo, a Railjack, Forma'ed all the frames I want, all the weapons I want (to this point) and I still have like 30 forma and plenty of relics to get more.

Since I now it can all be done, solo even, I know that the players whining over getting things faster are doing just that.

Getting Forma is also way faster and easier to obtain IME than so many people here claim. All you have to do is crack a few relics. I always have piles of Forma recipes without even trying.

Players do this hype-peer pressure-gotta catch 'em all do this to themselves.

Only cutting the very longest crafting times down by a few hours isn't so much making things faster. Just more convenient.
it's the difference between needing to literally schedule when you need to start crafting something and claim it to get the most for your time, vs starting to craft something whenever, and being able to claim it whenever (for the most part) on the same relative days you would have anyways. It's a qol change more than an actual time saver. If you're diligent about it it makes little difference, but if you're a bit of a scatter brain it's a world of improvement.

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22 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Ah I must've missed that change, that's my bad. Even so it's still difficult to manage logging in within an hour of the same time every day. I doubt cutting it down to 20 would hurt their bottom line all that much especially since at least half the money games like this make is from whales, which I doubt even bother to farm forma blueprints anyways.
 

Nobody needs to play the game ether. It's in their best interest to make it as enjoyable as possible.

 

People use this as a defense far too much. Yes it's a free game, making updates to it takes a lot of work, they need to make money, we get it. Most of what I suggested would have next to no negative effect on their income whatsoever tho. With the exception of my argument that these weapons shouldn't need 5 forma to reach max mastery, which to me is more an issue of, you would never need 5 forma on a rank 40 weapon so it's incredibly redundant (I almost always use one of those forma to remove a polarity). But yeah that would put a dent in their forma sales. As for the crafting timers though, the people that care about it enough to bring it up are the people that aren't paying around it already and are completionists. Which is an absolutely minuscule amount of the playerbase that is not contributing money ether way. But to be clear, less restrictive timers would still improve the overall feel of the game for everyone, not just those players.

Once you actually get to a point in the game where you can't progress on mastery any other way but this huge forma investment, it's pretty difficult to even obtain and forma them faster than you're actually building the forma. It took me a week just to get a sister with the tenet weapon I wanted because it takes so damn long just to spawn one sister candidate. It would just make the game feel a little bit more pleasant if they were a little more lenient on some of these timers.

1. Some might argue that "logging in every 20 hours" doesn't work for them, either.  Regardless of what you believe or what you "doubt", conjecture is just that, and it's not comparable to the company itself which DOES have metrics that tell them which decisions make sense and which don't financially.

2. Again, though.. these are assumptions and opinions not rooted in any actual factual statistics.  I do agree that 5 forma is more than you NEED, but then again... what do you really "need" in this game, anyway?  If you've got the forma and the time AND the desire, do it.  If not, don't.  It's not complicated.

3. And who set the determination that "taking a week" to do something in a game that is ongoing and has been for 8+ years is "too long" for a task to take?  What will you do once you've mastered everything?  Where is the fire?  Why the rush?  

If it takes you longer than a few days to acquire and master something, that MIGHT BE THE POINT INTENDED.  That something "takes too long" is your opinion, not fact.  DE has no vested interest in making things go by quicker... that'd only result in you putting the game down sooner. 

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15 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Only cutting the very longest crafting times down by a few hours isn't so much making things faster. Just more convenient.
it's the difference between needing to literally schedule when you need to start crafting something and claim it to get the most for your time, vs starting to craft something whenever, and being able to claim it whenever (for the most part) on the same relative days you would have anyways. It's a qol change more than an actual time saver. If you're diligent about it it makes little difference, but if you're a bit of a scatter brain it's a world of improvement.

IMO, this only is a problem if you are laser focused on time.

IMO/IME, playing games is for relaxing and relaxing, which I am well aware is subjective.

IMO/IME, if one boils down games to 'how long things take', then I simply, from my POV, no longer see people playing games, but instead 'optimizing time to get paid in pixels', which is, IMO, no longer playing a game, but giving oneself tasks to perform and be judged on ... not just playing a game...

When it is a SaaS game like this, intended to be played over a long period, and players focus on the literal seconds it takes to get things, I think those players lost the narrative, again, IMO.

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On 2021-08-23 at 2:25 AM, RichardKam said:

*inhale*

WHY would you forma EVERY kuva and tenet weapon 5 times over!?

Seriously, unless you want to install focus lens on every single one of them or you are a compulsory perfectionist, otherwise I see no gameplay reason to forma them 5 times. 

Each forma will reduce your mod drain while giving you extra capacity. Therefore it actually requires LESS forma to fully build a kuva or tenet variant compared to normal weapons. 

They give another 100 Mastery Exp for each level, that is literally why anyone would do it all the way to rank 5, I am guiilty of it, cause I'm an MR whore, and a completionist (that still has K-Driven unfinished yet, so much for getting everything 'Completed').

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Only need forma badly 2 times in my years of playing, first was when i was bored and waiting for the gauss update and thought I'll give myself a project. I'll build and forma out every weapon in the game, i realised that i should of prep more but had an okay stock and when i ran out i farmed fissures in between guns crafting for bps and rushed the will plat made from stuff i got getting the formas.

And 2nd was the sisters update since it came sooner than expected and didn't have enough to cover all of it since new job that requires you to get up at 4am messes with your sleep schedule so didn't have free time to get forma bps at the time.

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On 2021-08-22 at 5:36 PM, DogeManX said:

TLDR: Queenpins update released weapons needing 75 forma at once (12 Tenet and 3 Kuva). That's about 2 and a half months of just straight building forma. There are 19 Kuva weapons and 12 Tenet weapons meaning the total amount of forma needed to farm for queenpins and liches are 155 forma.

As more content is released, forma build time should be lowered. For new players, the amount of time needed to build forma just piles on way too quickly with all the content in warframe. And with the release of galvanized mods, weapons that could squeak by on 3 or 4 forma now need more. If nothing is done about this, newer players and players in the midgame will get bored waiting for their in game timers and drop the game. The entire time gated crafting system has turned many of my friends off this game and the stacking forma costs will do the same.

See the source image<---Source of my pain

 

When I first started the game, there was so much content for me to explore. At the center of the content was the gear unlocked from it and at the center of the gear was the forma to polarize the slots. Grinding from MR 0-30, there were a lot of weapons that required a single forma to build, and while there was a lot of stuff to farm, eventually I built enough forma to build it all.

 

But the newer updates really pile onto the forma cost of the game. In the older updates, you'd need maybe 10 forma at most for something like a prime vault and if there was a big update like fortuna, you'd need more, but because the content wasn't dropped all at once, you could realistically have forma building on the side as new content comes out to keep a stockpile. 

 

Before queenpins, I had saved 70 forma after building for months anticipating a new update. But as sevagoth released with 3 moddable configurations with very few innate polarities, that ate into the stockpile I had. But I still wasn't worried as I was sitting on 50 forma. But when the update came out, my stockpile evaporated and the only solution was to either wait a month to max out all the weapons or to buy the forma bundles. 

 

I really love playing warframe, but I cannot imagine how the experience is for newer players and having to wait 23 hours to decide between putting a polarity on a weapon or to use it to build something else. DE really needs to give us some way to build forma faster.

 

Please tell me your thoughts. Maybe my MRL1 mind is just too out of touch with the game to think about it.

 

 

 

EDIT: I should've been more clear that my problem isn't with forma itself but rather with the time it takes for it to build. While you can f2p farm 300 forma bps, it'll still take around ~300 days to build it. If I had to make a suggestion on how to make it better, I'd just make the uncommon forma in relics built. That way the uncommon forma aren't just a feelsbad for drops and there's a way to directly farm for forma. 

 

I dont think forma is a pay to win system either. Warframe is really good with keeping out p2w systems. It seems tencent isn't influencing them too much. But there's definitely potential for forma to become a pay to win system with just a few changes. 

 

Also apologies for the clickbaity title. It gets people to click onto the thread and promotes more discussion. I know forma won't actually cripple warframe lol.

honestly crafting timers should be lowered or gotten rid of entirely 

 

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On 2021-08-25 at 6:41 PM, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

2. Forma having existed for a long while doesn't mean that they need to be changed.  There's nothing broken about them. See point 1.
 

My original point wasn't that forma was broken before. My point is fundamentally that as more items are added to the game, the cumulative mountain of forma that people will need to farm/craft grows. If you played Warframe at launch, you'd need less than 100 forma to build everything you want. If you started two years ago, you'd need maybe 500-600 forma. If you started this year, you'd need eventually farm 1000-1200 forma. And in the future you probably will eventually have to farm upwards of 2000 forma to try out every weapon.

That's not to say you could take 10 forma, build a single warframe, primary, secondary, and melee and just call it a day and say "yep I'm done I don't need anything else." But a large part of the fun of warframe comes from trying out different builds, playstyles, and weapons. From the perspective of a player who already has most of the stuff done, it's easy to keep up with releases and forma as you go. But for early and midgame players, the saturation of choice and the need for forma will definitely limit the player's ability to freely forma things they think look cool and instead choose to view a guide on the most meta weapons so they can get the best use out of their forma. If you decrease the time it takes to construct forma or make it easier to acquire (not as easy as a normal resource but where early/midgame players are able to farm them decently quickly), more players will be less gated by the choice between a new weapon (that requires forma), putting the forma on a cool warframe, or making the gun they like better.

I think we can all agree that it is very satisfying to be kitted out. I mean, power fantasy is the main appeal of Warframe. Forma definitely feels like a prolonged break from that fun. I remember when I was leveling lab weapons for mastery rank a few years ago (when MR cap was around 2X), I always found it frustrating to want to forma a weapon but the forma I would have used is either building or reserved for a new weapon. 

What I'm getting at is that forma might not be broken now, but in the future when new players have to grind up and get weapons (which is actually a core part of the gameplay), it'll be a lot tougher for them to decide between the choices for their forma because of the saturation of choice.

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On 2021-08-23 at 2:50 AM, ZeroX4 said:

I did read your whole wall of text so enjoy mine and maybe it will help you

BRAVO BRAVO big F***ing salut to you for that idea
Now imagine we have FOR EXAMPLE 6 hour craft time on forma (so it would be lowered almost 4x times) would you be the one sitting here on forums fighting off any1 that cry that they cant log in each 6h to craft forma and we should have auto crafting system?
Or would you pay the gap warframe makes on plat purchased formas and forma bundles from market with your own money so we all could still have F2P game?

But 1 thing that strikes me im also L1 you see and in my gameplay life i purchased only 5 forma bundles (15 forma) because friend told me there is discount for them atm but i quickly realized its waste of plat and you know what? Look at this
w9xQN3i.png
Even so we are both L1 i have more but please tell us how many days you have spent in warframe? Just so we can calculate how many days you wasted NOT crafting free forma
Cause i did ever since i understood if i craft them for a year i would have +/- 300 already (56+what you get from GFTL and sortie would go to your everyday use)

If player dont learn that he SHOULD craft at least 1 forma per day then whos fault it is for running low on forma?

I know all i wrote and will write below sounds mean but trust me im far from it
I would love lower craft timers but in a same way i would love auction house where i would not need to go to dojo and break my game plan of the day just to trade
While at the same time i would NOT WANT for crap that is worth 50p now would be 10 plat and we start selling 6 prime parts for for 1 plat since thats how prices would drop cause of auction house or even more

And you say your friends stopped playing warframe because they realized how much forma they would need to use on their crap? How long did they play?
20 days? 30? And you didnt teach them to craft 1 forma each day? Maybe thats the problem with them and not timers?

And you really care for ppl that quit so fast at grind based game anyway? That dont understand that you need constant progress to success in this game over getting most crap in 1 day? I sure dont

On top of that you are L1 how much plat do you have? Like something prevents you from buying forma bundles? Or what? I dont get it since so many players do it why you cant?
Because there is free alternative which consumes time? Whats the problem here?

I have almost 24k plat and 90% of it is from selling veiled rivens from sortie and syndicate weapons which i get from just playing the game while i cant craft anything more since i have all i could
Whats your excuse at MR L1?

Even better do you really need to forma every single crap you own? I have tons of weapons i only ranked to mr30 and never seen them again not to mention frames companions and other stuff

And kuva+tenet weapons do you know how much affinity that 10 extra levels give? And/or do you know that you can just rank them up to 30 and leave them for later when you have spare formas?

And you talk about low MR players realizing how much forma they need for kuva and tenet weapons and that is bad yet we waste much more formas on crap that we actually use like companions weapons frames we actually waste much more formas on them but holly molly tenet and kuva weapons my ow my?

If i crafted 1 forma from day1 or AT LEAST from 1st day i understood i will need many formas and constantly gaining them would help me by crafting 1 each day i would have over 900 CRAFTED FORMAS by now OR MORE i bet you also

So maybe instead of lower timers lets ask for some education (like a tip in foundry or mod screen) that we should craft 1 forma each day and darwin would do the rest

I feel like you found the problem that could be fixed very easily
But you found it in wrong place
And you want to fix it by incorrect means

Education is all we need

 

I have to admit, I don't build forma as diligently as I should. But the reason for that is that I already have everything kitted out. In terms of login rewards, I just got to 1k days but I definitely purchased quite a few forma bundles from trading plat for prime junk. Sitting at 2.3k plat to pick up every cool deluxe bundle I feel like too.

But while education is important, teaching everyone the optimal way of playing doesn't make people magically more diligent. Good game design shouldn't revolve around the most optimal way people will do something but rather the way that people actually will use it. Especially in warframe where there is over 1000 days of content, it's really hard to be diligent for even half of those days. 

 

"Now imagine we have FOR EXAMPLE 6 hour craft time on forma (so it would be lowered almost 4x times) would you be the one sitting here on forums fighting off any1 that cry that they cant log in each 6h to craft forma and we should have auto crafting system?"

Yeah I probably would say that 6h is a fine amount of time to craft forma. I think with that and the companion app, you could comfortably build two a day. Right now, it's one a day. Personally though I really do love the change they did to give you more leeway on when you craft it. I always had problems missing the completion and having my forma schedule offset for the next day.

 

"And you say your friends stopped playing warframe because they realized how much forma they would need to use on their crap? How long did they play?
20 days? 30? And you didnt teach them to craft 1 forma each day? Maybe thats the problem with them and not timers?"

On the point of lower MR players, I'd say the biggest hurdle for new players is MR8. I noticed people who made it to MR 8 usually stayed with the game much longer than people who didn't. The problem with starting the game is that there are very few great relic farming spots in the first few planets. And if the "education" proposed is telling every new player "Go to this node every day, stay for 20 minute sessions until you farm enough relics and then immediately go run them so you can get blueprints for forma" is not a very fun way to describe how to play the game. While yes, this is a major part of gameplay, I'd argue the most compelling part of Warframe is fun from its freedom. Chaining new players down to the chore of finding relics and then opening them as their top priority might be the most optimal way of obtaining forma, but it's also a boring way to spend the first few hours of warframe. 

Remember, a new player starts with nothing. That means they have to manually farm for every relic to farm for forma. And being a newer player means that the places to farm are much more limited than for you and I. In the first 30 days, most of my friends spend time exploring warframe without much regard to forma grinding. So the solution to this would be that I give them spare relics to build every day (which they will need resources for) so I have to take them to places to farm for said resources and hold their hand. Or it would be to give them enough plat to purchase a ton of forma so they don't need to worry about it for a long time. Both of these solutions aren't great because it means that older players are tasked with the responsibility of just giving newer players a bunch of forma and leading them around to open relics. That sounds like a very fun time for everyone involved. 

"Even better do you really need to forma every single crap you own? I have tons of weapons i only ranked to mr30 and never seen them again not to mention frames companions and other stuff"

I mean, you don't really need to forma anything. Just the things you enjoy. I too have tons of weapons I ranked to 30 and threw away. But the point still stands that while some people might find using the same loadout for every mission fun and fulfilling, I'd argue a core part of warframe is finding weapons that are fun to use and building them to be more fun and viable to use. If forma takes less time to build or is easier to obtain, people will explore more fun builds and weapons than before. 

I like azima. I put 5 forma and a riven on it because I thought the gimmick was fun. However, if I got azima as a login reward and had other weapons to forma, I probably would look online, see people taking a dump on azima, and put my forma on the corinth prime which I'd enjoy, but significantly less. 

 

For forma totals:

Warframe: 144

Exalted: 37

Primary: 272

Secondary: 199

Melee: 129

Companion: 23

Companion weapon: 10

Archwing: 0 (lol)

Archgun: 38

Archmelee: 1

K-Drive: 1

Mech: 13

Mech weapon: 8

Plexus: 3

Total: 876

I went and counted every forma I used for you. I definitely used more that have since been scrapped (helminth and weapons). In case you're wondering, my most expensive forma warframe is sevagoth coming in at 14 forma total. 

 

Now with that being said, I've played about 1000 days, so I guess I've been pretty efficient in farming and building forma (About 88% efficient according to my calculations). And with that, there is my excuse for being lazy. I guess I just wanted a break from farming constantly. 

 

But I guess my final point stands that while yes, education is definitely important in playing the game efficiently, game design should revolve around how people will play the game rather than how it could be played. While DE struggled with that in the past (the thing that pops up into mind most quickly is the Uranus SE farm), they usually make it right.

With forma, it's definitely a chore and one of the core reasons I've put hours into the game. But in terms of "fun factor", more forma definitely frees me to make stupid decisions when investing it and allowing for me to experience something I wouldn't have if I didn't have a surplus.

 

Sorry for the wall of text. But I thought that your well written post deserved a proper response.

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6 hours ago, DogeManX said:

I have to admit, I don't build forma as diligently as I should. But the reason for that is that I already have everything kitted out. In terms of login rewards, I just got to 1k days but I definitely purchased quite a few forma bundles from trading plat for prime junk. Sitting at 2.3k plat to pick up every cool deluxe bundle I feel like too.

But while education is important, teaching everyone the optimal way of playing doesn't make people magically more diligent. Good game design shouldn't revolve around the most optimal way people will do something but rather the way that people actually will use it. Especially in warframe where there is over 1000 days of content, it's really hard to be diligent for even half of those days. 

 

"Now imagine we have FOR EXAMPLE 6 hour craft time on forma (so it would be lowered almost 4x times) would you be the one sitting here on forums fighting off any1 that cry that they cant log in each 6h to craft forma and we should have auto crafting system?"

Yeah I probably would say that 6h is a fine amount of time to craft forma. I think with that and the companion app, you could comfortably build two a day. Right now, it's one a day. Personally though I really do love the change they did to give you more leeway on when you craft it. I always had problems missing the completion and having my forma schedule offset for the next day.

 

"And you say your friends stopped playing warframe because they realized how much forma they would need to use on their crap? How long did they play?
20 days? 30? And you didnt teach them to craft 1 forma each day? Maybe thats the problem with them and not timers?"

On the point of lower MR players, I'd say the biggest hurdle for new players is MR8. I noticed people who made it to MR 8 usually stayed with the game much longer than people who didn't. The problem with starting the game is that there are very few great relic farming spots in the first few planets. And if the "education" proposed is telling every new player "Go to this node every day, stay for 20 minute sessions until you farm enough relics and then immediately go run them so you can get blueprints for forma" is not a very fun way to describe how to play the game. While yes, this is a major part of gameplay, I'd argue the most compelling part of Warframe is fun from its freedom. Chaining new players down to the chore of finding relics and then opening them as their top priority might be the most optimal way of obtaining forma, but it's also a boring way to spend the first few hours of warframe. 

Remember, a new player starts with nothing. That means they have to manually farm for every relic to farm for forma. And being a newer player means that the places to farm are much more limited than for you and I. In the first 30 days, most of my friends spend time exploring warframe without much regard to forma grinding. So the solution to this would be that I give them spare relics to build every day (which they will need resources for) so I have to take them to places to farm for said resources and hold their hand. Or it would be to give them enough plat to purchase a ton of forma so they don't need to worry about it for a long time. Both of these solutions aren't great because it means that older players are tasked with the responsibility of just giving newer players a bunch of forma and leading them around to open relics. That sounds like a very fun time for everyone involved. 

"Even better do you really need to forma every single crap you own? I have tons of weapons i only ranked to mr30 and never seen them again not to mention frames companions and other stuff"

I mean, you don't really need to forma anything. Just the things you enjoy. I too have tons of weapons I ranked to 30 and threw away. But the point still stands that while some people might find using the same loadout for every mission fun and fulfilling, I'd argue a core part of warframe is finding weapons that are fun to use and building them to be more fun and viable to use. If forma takes less time to build or is easier to obtain, people will explore more fun builds and weapons than before. 

I like azima. I put 5 forma and a riven on it because I thought the gimmick was fun. However, if I got azima as a login reward and had other weapons to forma, I probably would look online, see people taking a dump on azima, and put my forma on the corinth prime which I'd enjoy, but significantly less. 

 

For forma totals:

Warframe: 144

Exalted: 37

Primary: 272

Secondary: 199

Melee: 129

Companion: 23

Companion weapon: 10

Archwing: 0 (lol)

Archgun: 38

Archmelee: 1

K-Drive: 1

Mech: 13

Mech weapon: 8

Plexus: 3

Total: 876

I went and counted every forma I used for you. I definitely used more that have since been scrapped (helminth and weapons). In case you're wondering, my most expensive forma warframe is sevagoth coming in at 14 forma total. 

 

Now with that being said, I've played about 1000 days, so I guess I've been pretty efficient in farming and building forma (About 88% efficient according to my calculations). And with that, there is my excuse for being lazy. I guess I just wanted a break from farming constantly. 

 

But I guess my final point stands that while yes, education is definitely important in playing the game efficiently, game design should revolve around how people will play the game rather than how it could be played. While DE struggled with that in the past (the thing that pops up into mind most quickly is the Uranus SE farm), they usually make it right.

With forma, it's definitely a chore and one of the core reasons I've put hours into the game. But in terms of "fun factor", more forma definitely frees me to make stupid decisions when investing it and allowing for me to experience something I wouldn't have if I didn't have a surplus.

 

Sorry for the wall of text. But I thought that your well written post deserved a proper response.

Dont be sorry for big wall of text cause it provided many information which i believe can let me try to convince you to look at some facts from different standpoint
And big wall of text for a big wall of text i believe mine is bigger but you know size does not matter
BUTY MAIN IS STILL BIGGER!!!

Just dont feel offended or attacked

I started to play warframe cause my cousin didnt know english and he needed someone to translate what ppl say when they whisper him to trade (he set our native language in options and thats the whole translation issue was coming from in rare cases asking for quantity of item or discount)

Thats how my story with warframe started
I was like doing my crap playing the game and then i discovered Hikou i fell in love with this weapon
Then (since thats the time from where around i started to play) Hydroid Prime was out and i asked my cousin what it mean and he explained that as some weapons and some warframes comes in so called Primed variants of themselves and i asked is there Hikou Prime? And guess what there was

That was my eternal goal to get that bloody weapon and throw that stars in any enemy face i could encounter on any mission
Then i fell in love with excalibur (my starting frame) then nidus then inaros and from that on i just decided i will collect every single piece of crap warframe have to offer craft everything that i can master anything that gain experience

And now im here with all that completed and im still playing but well i just play because i like it not to complete something anymore
And why i write all this? Just so i can use my backstory as a example to explain you few things that happened on the way

You start by not being so efficient with every day forma crating and in half of your reply u provide list of how much forma you wasted
Exactly today i received my 1250 daily tribute yeah lucky me
F**** that 250 days since 250 days is absolutely enough to learn about how warframe economy works (i mean your resources need and use of them)
I quickly learned its easier to put potato in every frame and weapon just to have higher mod capacity but even faster i learned that i cant pull potatoes out of my A**
And switched to getting crap to rank30 and never touch them again
Then with that remaining 1000 days (out of 1250) crafting 1 forma per day would leave me with well 1k forma but you say u wasted like 800+ so if i were you i should be left with lets say +/-200 forma right?
BUUUUUUUUT lets throw into a mix GFTL formas ones from various events ones from invasions ones i get from plague star (i basically made a solo clan and founded every single research and room in my dojo just thx to plague star) and various other means of from wherever you could get forma from

Yet i still have 300+ crafted formas
I think i would have like 600+ left if i craft 1 each day from that 1st day of 1k days till today but for very very long i didnt craft any

But in the end i was lucky i had only 1 time in my gameplay life where i felt i lack in forma with only 2 left in my stock and that was the day when i bought that 5 forma bundles
And from that day on i only crafted formas each day and never again i purchased any i do feel pain when after kuva lich update my stock melted down but i quickly or maybe proper word would be constantly regenerated my stock

And you say something about good game design that it should not need such education well you remember how i fell in love with Hikou and strive to get Hikou Prime?
Guess what im still using it but even so i love it so much i only take it on regular missions i can take it to SP but well killing with it is just a struggle even so i have riven on it

Is that bad game design should i be educated that Hikou isnt so awesome (in stats) weapon? Idk but thats how it is in warframe i know thx to it to look on weapon stats 
And that tells me if its worth to put forma into it or just rank it to 30

I didnt need to have guide anywhere or info like "hey this weapon will be good but only up to sortie level enemies" anything above and that weapon will be crap
I just needed to waste few formas to learn my lesson

I NEVER EVER farmed any relics i was just playing my game exploring stuff i did not understand yet and was unlocking whole star chart trying to remember which node is which tile set
I did relics i collected organically just to get some primed crap and vend it for plat

And i was never in situation where i had no relics of some era like meso or axi
So its hard for me to understand when you say something like new players have manually farm for every relic because they start with nothing
Well i was new player and somehow i dint need to farm that relics they were just mission rewards i got anyway for doing my crap in warframe
So why any1 else would need to? Unless someone wanted to have 1k plat at MR 8 then yeah then you are 100% right

And your point still stands? Well yeah if someone wants to get to mr 30 in 2 months craft like crazy dont do many things they should then yeah they will end up like you describe it

Best example focus farm
People go to ESO or SO or Hydron to focus farm?
WHAT THE F*** is focus farm? I never did it i never heard about it (until after i was maxed out in all schools) yet it exist?
I simply discovered operator then amps and i decided i need best of the best from the best and then mother bloody F***ing sentient core or shards
Idk how many times i did solo 1st eidolon to fully build proper amp unlock some skills and start eidolon hunting
But guess i did few of them i actually did few more than other 2 like 1k more
mJq9lRi.png

And after that i just started eidolon hunting i was swimming in cores and shards whatever was needed to level up focus schools i had it plenty
People were freaking out when we got arcane guardian energize or grace at the end of the hunt
I never understood why cause i made much more plat on selling sets of arcane nullifier tempo warmth and few others that i was swimming in where 1 piece was worth like 2 plat and set around 40p

Because i NEVER had problem with plat i NEVER had problem with focus never needed to farm any of it directly
And you may ask why i just wrote all that?
Well here is the moment when you say "ok ok but maybe someone dont know or want to do eidolons for that?"

Yeah sure you are right 100% but its same case as me with that Hikou Prime and that was the point of my whole story
I could keep running with Hikou Prime and cry "omg why enemies have so much HP and Shields and Armor? Why they cant die faster WHY?"
But i picked more efficient way of progres and in same regard i picked more efficient progression with focus and plat combined

Now imagine how stupid ppl that go to focus farm on ESO or whatever looks in my eyes?
Considering they would get focus + plat if they hunt eidolons?
Let that sink in for a moment

Now imagine how proper education (no1 taught me that it i just discovered it by accident because i wanted to get better amp and unlock all zenurik skills) works
My easy gameplay life where i just did 1 thing to get rich and gain access to fully upgrade focus skills 
VS gameplay of someone who is like omg ESO gives so much focus and after that i will go open some relics to get some plat

Bloody proper education showing someone correct path that is all we need and all we will ever need nothing more nothing less
Proper game design? In proper game design i should be able to mod Hikou Prime so i could solo ropalolyst with it on SP
But even so i cant is it still bad game design? Nah its just what we get and how it works i use Hiko where i can when i want and for other stuff i have different weapons

I dont take slow nova to defense and cry why mission takes longer than with saryn
We should teach ppl how to adjust and not give them everything on a silver platter and force them to think for themselves

You want to go to water and make fishes jump into your hands just cause u came close? F U
Here is rod here is bait combine the 2 and go get your fish

EDUCATION TIPS HINTS INFO only that and we dont have a problem
Like auction house warframe dont have it could it would be cool and all but we have trade chat + 3rd party listing site and somehow it works ppl trade and its going on
All that is necessary is for ppl to be educated how both things works try them both and pick the one which is better suited to their needs

Prime example of education
Do you know excaliburs exalted blade melee attack moves you forward with each attack?
Did u ever try to crouch with it? Cause you will become stationary sentry thx to it

When you mod a weapon in search field type in corrosive or blast guess what mods will pop up?

Nidus did u ever even try to hold 1 instead of spamming it?

Index? Well duh get rhino
Are you sure? Care to try umbra + operator with some decent sniper rifle? Or wukong with celestial twin and opreator
Cause you know operator kinda cant die he just teleport back to warframe 
And warframe AI (umbra if you are out as operator or celestial twin) kinda have built in aimbot
Not to mention void dash moving speed or void mode being save from enemy fire

E D U C A T I O N

Edited by ZeroX4
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4 hours ago, DogeManX said:

Total: 876

I went and counted every forma I used for you. I definitely used more that have since been scrapped (helminth and weapons). In case you're wondering, my most expensive forma warframe is sevagoth coming in at 14 forma total. 

Now with that being said, I've played about 1000 days, so I guess I've been pretty efficient in farming and building forma (About 88% efficient according to my calculations). And with that, there is my excuse for being lazy. I guess I just wanted a break from farming constantly. 

But your calculations are wrong, since you ignore several Plague Star events during that time and several nightwaves that also grant a decent amount of forma pre-built forma. Unless of course you've skipped those things, which you cant blame DE for. Plague Star for instance results in 1 forma each 10 minutes on avarage, that means you can get 6 forma per hour. Even if you would only do 1 hour of plague star per day during the shortest of those events, you'd still end up with 60 forma. And if you'd do the same during the longest of them you'd end up with 180+ forma. And with 1000 days you should have done two plague start events, a short and a long, so you should have gotten around 240 forma just from that if you've put in minimal effort. Then we've had 6 NW's so far, where each have granted atleast 6 forma, that is another 36 forma for little efforts. 

So if you've done most of that, which you should, then you've really only built 600 forma in 1000 days. Still, that is with counting minimum Plague Star engagement.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But your calculations are wrong, since you ignore several Plague Star events during that time and several nightwaves that also grant a decent amount of forma pre-built forma. Unless of course you've skipped those things, which you cant blame DE for. Plague Star for instance results in 1 forma each 10 minutes on avarage, that means you can get 6 forma per hour. Even if you would only do 1 hour of plague star per day during the shortest of those events, you'd still end up with 60 forma. And if you'd do the same during the longest of them you'd end up with 180+ forma. And with 1000 days you should have done two plague start events, a short and a long, so you should have gotten around 240 forma just from that if you've put in minimal effort. Then we've had 6 NW's so far, where each have granted atleast 6 forma, that is another 36 forma for little efforts. 

So if you've done most of that, which you should, then you've really only built 600 forma in 1000 days. Still, that is with counting minimum Plague Star engagement.

His calculations are correct (if we are talking about 88% efficiency)

Cause we are talking here about how many formas are left in his possession VS how many he used
And not how many he crafted trough his whole gameplay life span

While as he wrote "I've been pretty efficient in FARMING and BUILDING forma"
Unless we consider "FARMING" only refers to forma from relics

But then we would need to consider that only formas from relics were used which is impossible so i think its safe to assume FARMING = gaining from any source
And whole sentence should be understood as FARMING from many sources + crafting ones from relics

But i dont sit in his head so i cant tell for sure but thats what at least i understand out of it

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On 2021-08-22 at 8:51 PM, (XBOX)calvina said:

Gud stuff, although, a nice suggestion would be that forma packs should be an uncommon drop from relics,

Like,

Common - Forma BP

Uncommon -3x Forma BP (5x on vaulted relics)

 

As long as forma packs still take 1-2 days to make, it should ease the grind alittle.

a forma blueprint is an unbuilt forma, a built forma takes 23 hours, the grind isnt the issue its that u need over 365 days worth of forma and thats not including the fact that there is stuff that takes a forma to even build in the first place 

Edited by (PSN)Spider_Enigma
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