Forma will cripple warframe

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

On 2021-08-22 at 9:30 PM, trst said:

You might have a point if there was an obligation to Forma everything to the max other than one's own desires to "100%" everything.

That glosses over the intent inherent in the design.  They built the expanded Rank weapons to be potentially stronger than other weapons and they want people to develop them with 5 Forma.  They want you to spend 5 days building Forma because that incentivizes circumventing the wait by wasting Platinum in rushing the build or by dropping Platinum in the store.

It's all by design.

All that said, I still support Warframe's microtransaction business model and it's the most conscientious model I've seen in any Free-to-Play.  THAT said, the Kuva/Tenet weapons are bizarrely user-unfriendly for a Warframe system.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

His calculations are correct (if we are talking about 88% efficiency)

Cause we are talking here about how many formas are left in his possession VS how many he used
And not how many he crafted trough his whole gameplay life span

While as he wrote "I've been pretty efficient in FARMING and BUILDING forma"
Unless we consider "FARMING" only refers to forma from relics

But then we would need to consider that only formas from relics were used which is impossible so i think its safe to assume FARMING = gaining from any source
And whole sentence should be understood as FARMING from many sources + crafting ones from relics

But i dont sit in his head so i cant tell for sure but thats what at least i understand out of it

We can only look at it from crafted forma really, since it is the only type that allows us to put the 1000 days in comparison to used forma. This is because they sat/sit on 24/23 hour crafting times. If you start adding in other types of obtained forma, the ratio will change because less of his time has been spent on obtaining that amount of forma. Efficiency in this case is also a very odd word, I think it would be more about consistant farming and building if anything. 88% out of the days he has played he has obtained atleast 1 built forma in some way.

My main point though was that his 88% doesnt mean he has spent 88% of his time playing on farming/building forma. Something it can easily be interpreted as. We cant know how much he has spent on farming forma BPs, or how much he has spent on farming built forma from events or NW. A forma BP can be obtained in such a short amount of time as 1m 30sec if you farm capture up to 5 minutes per BP if you farm survival.

[ZeroX4]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

We can only look at it from crafted forma really, since it is the only type that allows us to put the 1000 days in comparison to used forma. This is because they sat/sit on 24/23 hour crafting times. If you start adding in other types of obtained forma, the ratio will change because less of his time has been spent on obtaining that amount of forma. Efficiency in this case is also a very odd word, I think it would be more about consistant farming and building if anything. 88% out of the days he has played he has obtained atleast 1 built forma in some way.

My main point though was that his 88% doesnt mean he has spent 88% of his time playing on farming/building forma. Something it can easily be interpreted as. We cant know how much he has spent on farming forma BPs, or how much he has spent on farming built forma from events or NW. A forma BP can be obtained in such a short amount of time as 1m 30sec if you farm capture up to 5 minutes per BP if you farm survival.

Yeah i understand that

Thats why i stated "IF"

But since we acknowledge usage of forma from ALL sources we need to acknowledge it as gathering forma from any sources in time window of 1k in days

That all only narrows down to how we care to approach it but in the end if im right its in fact +/- 80% forma efficiency
Taking into account he wrote that he played around 1000 days till now and not that he crafted 1 forma each day
Where if he have 200 left and from that 1k days we only count crafted ones
Lets be generous here lets say he crafted 700 of them after 300 days of daily tribute he started to craft 1 forma each day (where i bet its lower)
Then considering his 200 left + 700 crafted that is 900 with around 800+ used that would leave him with 100 fully crafted formas
So where would be formas from NW from alerts from GFTL etc?

So If he have 200 formas left then it being 12% would mean um 100% is?

And thats why i assume we are talking about forma efficiency in 1k days with formas from any sources and not forma efficiency in 1k days but only with crafted formas
Where take into account as he stated he was lazy with crafting formas so imagine if that wasnt 700 crafted formas but like 400? Or even less
Then having remaining 200 would mean he made like 600 +/- in his gameplay
That would mean he gathered around 200+ forma from other sources which sounds kinda low in 1k days of gameplay span

And again maybe i am wrong maybe you are wrong whatever its all about how we look at it

[DogeManX]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But your calculations are wrong, since you ignore several Plague Star events during that time and several nightwaves that also grant a decent amount of forma pre-built forma. Unless of course you've skipped those things, which you cant blame DE for. Plague Star for instance results in 1 forma each 10 minutes on avarage, that means you can get 6 forma per hour. Even if you would only do 1 hour of plague star per day during the shortest of those events, you'd still end up with 60 forma. And if you'd do the same during the longest of them you'd end up with 180+ forma. And with 1000 days you should have done two plague start events, a short and a long, so you should have gotten around 240 forma just from that if you've put in minimal effort. Then we've had 6 NW's so far, where each have granted atleast 6 forma, that is another 36 forma for little efforts. 

So if you've done most of that, which you should, then you've really only built 600 forma in 1000 days. Still, that is with counting minimum Plague Star engagement.

Sorry, I should've been more clear with my methodology. You're right when you say that yes, I am not 88% efficient with overall farming for forma farming from every possible source. I meant to illustrate efficiency as a method of 1 day logged in = 1 forma gained. I know it's a very flawed way to measure pure efficiency (for example, if I ground 1000 forma from plague star, my metric would basically say that I was over 100% efficient with forma farming). 

I only used the percent as a measurement because it was the easiest way I could quantify efficiency at the moment. It's a really flawed measurement and basically relies on the notion that with only farming relics and crafting forma blueprints, the efficiency is 88%. A better way I just came up with is to divide total forma by hours played to get my forma per hour. 

 

Total forma: 880 (I actually forma'd some weapons right after I posted) 

Total hours: 1665

880/1665=.529 Forma per hour

 

So I guess a better way to state forma efficiency is to say that in all the time I spent playing warframe, I'd roughly generate .529 forma in an hour of gameplay. I'd say this is a decently fair way to quantify forma farming as it also accounts for the other content that could be done outside of solely forma farming.

 

Anyways, apologies for my primitive measurement and the confusion it caused. I just used easy figures because I didn't really have a solid way of formatting forma efficiency.

[DogeManX]

16 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Dont be sorry for big wall of text cause it provided many information which i believe can let me try to convince you to look at some facts from different standpoint
And big wall of text for a big wall of text i believe mine is bigger but you know size does not matter
BUTY MAIN IS STILL BIGGER!!!

Just dont feel offended or attacked

I started to play warframe cause my cousin didnt know english and he needed someone to translate what ppl say when they whisper him to trade (he set our native language in options and thats the whole translation issue was coming from in rare cases asking for quantity of item or discount)

Thats how my story with warframe started
I was like doing my crap playing the game and then i discovered Hikou i fell in love with this weapon
Then (since thats the time from where around i started to play) Hydroid Prime was out and i asked my cousin what it mean and he explained that as some weapons and some warframes comes in so called Primed variants of themselves and i asked is there Hikou Prime? And guess what there was

That was my eternal goal to get that bloody weapon and throw that stars in any enemy face i could encounter on any mission
Then i fell in love with excalibur (my starting frame) then nidus then inaros and from that on i just decided i will collect every single piece of crap warframe have to offer craft everything that i can master anything that gain experience

And now im here with all that completed and im still playing but well i just play because i like it not to complete something anymore
And why i write all this? Just so i can use my backstory as a example to explain you few things that happened on the way

You start by not being so efficient with every day forma crating and in half of your reply u provide list of how much forma you wasted
Exactly today i received my 1250 daily tribute yeah lucky me
F**** that 250 days since 250 days is absolutely enough to learn about how warframe economy works (i mean your resources need and use of them)
I quickly learned its easier to put potato in every frame and weapon just to have higher mod capacity but even faster i learned that i cant pull potatoes out of my A**
And switched to getting crap to rank30 and never touch them again
Then with that remaining 1000 days (out of 1250) crafting 1 forma per day would leave me with well 1k forma but you say u wasted like 800+ so if i were you i should be left with lets say +/-200 forma right?
BUUUUUUUUT lets throw into a mix GFTL formas ones from various events ones from invasions ones i get from plague star (i basically made a solo clan and founded every single research and room in my dojo just thx to plague star) and various other means of from wherever you could get forma from

Yet i still have 300+ crafted formas
I think i would have like 600+ left if i craft 1 each day from that 1st day of 1k days till today but for very very long i didnt craft any

But in the end i was lucky i had only 1 time in my gameplay life where i felt i lack in forma with only 2 left in my stock and that was the day when i bought that 5 forma bundles
And from that day on i only crafted formas each day and never again i purchased any i do feel pain when after kuva lich update my stock melted down but i quickly or maybe proper word would be constantly regenerated my stock

And you say something about good game design that it should not need such education well you remember how i fell in love with Hikou and strive to get Hikou Prime?
Guess what im still using it but even so i love it so much i only take it on regular missions i can take it to SP but well killing with it is just a struggle even so i have riven on it

Is that bad game design should i be educated that Hikou isnt so awesome (in stats) weapon? Idk but thats how it is in warframe i know thx to it to look on weapon stats 
And that tells me if its worth to put forma into it or just rank it to 30

I didnt need to have guide anywhere or info like "hey this weapon will be good but only up to sortie level enemies" anything above and that weapon will be crap
I just needed to waste few formas to learn my lesson

I NEVER EVER farmed any relics i was just playing my game exploring stuff i did not understand yet and was unlocking whole star chart trying to remember which node is which tile set
I did relics i collected organically just to get some primed crap and vend it for plat

And i was never in situation where i had no relics of some era like meso or axi
So its hard for me to understand when you say something like new players have manually farm for every relic because they start with nothing
Well i was new player and somehow i dint need to farm that relics they were just mission rewards i got anyway for doing my crap in warframe
So why any1 else would need to? Unless someone wanted to have 1k plat at MR 8 then yeah then you are 100% right

And your point still stands? Well yeah if someone wants to get to mr 30 in 2 months craft like crazy dont do many things they should then yeah they will end up like you describe it

Best example focus farm
People go to ESO or SO or Hydron to focus farm?
WHAT THE F*** is focus farm? I never did it i never heard about it (until after i was maxed out in all schools) yet it exist?
I simply discovered operator then amps and i decided i need best of the best from the best and then mother bloody F***ing sentient core or shards
Idk how many times i did solo 1st eidolon to fully build proper amp unlock some skills and start eidolon hunting
But guess i did few of them i actually did few more than other 2 like 1k more


And after that i just started eidolon hunting i was swimming in cores and shards whatever was needed to level up focus schools i had it plenty
People were freaking out when we got arcane guardian energize or grace at the end of the hunt
I never understood why cause i made much more plat on selling sets of arcane nullifier tempo warmth and few others that i was swimming in where 1 piece was worth like 2 plat and set around 40p

Because i NEVER had problem with plat i NEVER had problem with focus never needed to farm any of it directly
And you may ask why i just wrote all that?
Well here is the moment when you say "ok ok but maybe someone dont know or want to do eidolons for that?"

Yeah sure you are right 100% but its same case as me with that Hikou Prime and that was the point of my whole story
I could keep running with Hikou Prime and cry "omg why enemies have so much HP and Shields and Armor? Why they cant die faster WHY?"
But i picked more efficient way of progres and in same regard i picked more efficient progression with focus and plat combined

Now imagine how stupid ppl that go to focus farm on ESO or whatever looks in my eyes?
Considering they would get focus + plat if they hunt eidolons?
Let that sink in for a moment

Now imagine how proper education (no1 taught me that it i just discovered it by accident because i wanted to get better amp and unlock all zenurik skills) works
My easy gameplay life where i just did 1 thing to get rich and gain access to fully upgrade focus skills 
VS gameplay of someone who is like omg ESO gives so much focus and after that i will go open some relics to get some plat

Bloody proper education showing someone correct path that is all we need and all we will ever need nothing more nothing less
Proper game design? In proper game design i should be able to mod Hikou Prime so i could solo ropalolyst with it on SP
But even so i cant is it still bad game design? Nah its just what we get and how it works i use Hiko where i can when i want and for other stuff i have different weapons

I dont take slow nova to defense and cry why mission takes longer than with saryn
We should teach ppl how to adjust and not give them everything on a silver platter and force them to think for themselves

You want to go to water and make fishes jump into your hands just cause u came close? F U
Here is rod here is bait combine the 2 and go get your fish

EDUCATION TIPS HINTS INFO only that and we dont have a problem
Like auction house warframe dont have it could it would be cool and all but we have trade chat + 3rd party listing site and somehow it works ppl trade and its going on
All that is necessary is for ppl to be educated how both things works try them both and pick the one which is better suited to their needs

Prime example of education
Do you know excaliburs exalted blade melee attack moves you forward with each attack?
Did u ever try to crouch with it? Cause you will become stationary sentry thx to it

When you mod a weapon in search field type in corrosive or blast guess what mods will pop up?

Nidus did u ever even try to hold 1 instead of spamming it?

Index? Well duh get rhino
Are you sure? Care to try umbra + operator with some decent sniper rifle? Or wukong with celestial twin and opreator
Cause you know operator kinda cant die he just teleport back to warframe 
And warframe AI (umbra if you are out as operator or celestial twin) kinda have built in aimbot
Not to mention void dash moving speed or void mode being save from enemy fire

E D U C A T I O N

If we keep one upping each other's posts, eventually we'll have enough text to fill a book. However, I'm happy to express my opinions to anyone willing to listen.

 

Education is definitely a key part of warframe. I think with warframe there are a lot of people who have no idea of the many hidden facts and features that are present. For example, for the longest time, I'd think my game was bugging because I couldn't see my squadmates hp/shields. But then I realized that I accidentally pressed "z" on my keyboard and it would make the names disappear. 

However, in many cases, education seems to be a bandage to fill the gaps where the game is poorly designed. To preface what I'm going to say, I don't hate warframe. I really love the game. However, I love it enough to be able to criticize its shortcomings and want to see the game improve. And I think most people will agree that there are many parts of warframe that annoy us. It's far from a perfect game, but with the ability to reflect and improve, the game can and has gotten much better. 

 

I guess to talk about game design, I have to create a premise on what I say is good game design is (with regards to education). Looking at other games, an example of good game design promoting education are things like movement tech. In Team Fortress and Quake, rocket jumping is an integral part of movement and taking your gameplay to the next level. Education is required because it is a mechanic that is not expressly intuitive (e.g. self damage is usually a punishment mechanic for careless gameplay in games), but it is different in the game because it creates a new skill ceiling that adds depth to the game. In warframe, an example of this is the modding system. The way you mod weapons isn't immediately intuitive as there are a lot of factors going into mods, but with education, the modding system adds a level of depth to warframe that brings it beyond the normal loadout selection of:

>select gun

>shoot gun

 

However, bad game design uses education as a bandage or excuse for why a mechanic is the way it is. To take something from warframe and forma, a great example is the uncommon forma in relics. Rarity systems from "surprise mechanics" are shared across many games with higher tiered rewards being more rare and desirable. So to a new player in warframe, they would naturally gravitate towards selecting an uncommon forma reward over a common drop. However, the education on this topic would be "uncommon forma doesn't do anything extra, it's literally the same forma in a different package". Granted, this example is a very minor example of a learning curve, I hope it serves to illustrate my point. 

To continue on the train of poor game design, to take an example from your response. 

"Like auction house warframe dont have it could it would be cool and all but we have trade chat + 3rd party listing site and somehow it works ppl trade and its going on"

It WOULD be really cool if we had an auction house and a first party trading interface. Many of the arguments on the farming of forma within this thread have contained something about farming for plat and selling it. However, this requires you to either use the (very lacking) chat interface, or to list your items on a third party website (created as a bandage because of warframes lack of built in trade interface). While education goes a long way in respects to trading, you have to admit that DE could do much better in terms of game design to implement a more efficient way to trade (possible maroo revamp?). The steam marketplace is a perfect example of a game with an in game market and an integrated first party trade system. Granted, there are third party sites because of the $ limitation of steam, if warframe were to either partner more closely with warframe marketplace and have a more integrated and fluid system, it would go a much longer way than just pure education of newbies.

 

I guess to talk about an example of an improved part of game design, we can look at railjack and more specifically, the orophix and arcane system. Now, I think it is universally agreed upon that the (hot)launch of railjack was an absolute disaster. I remember playing it right when it dropped and a bug existed where if you got downed in archwing and died, you could never revive. Granted, the system was very unfinished and unpolished then so pretty much any change would be an improvement, with the release of the corpus nodes and introduction of orophix missions, it fixed a few things. 

1. Railjack: railjack had no variety and there were many QOL changes in the update that made for a much more fun experience.

2. Arcane farming: Arcane farming (while I love eidolons) is not everyone's cup of tea. This is mostly due to the average player experience being:

>Get operator

>Go to cetus and talk with konzu

>Start tridolon mission

>Die over and over

*(This part is just a digression to state my personal opinion not really the main argument)

Now, here, I agree that education really does go a long way. I normally go into public tridolon lobbies because I enjoy carrying people sometimes. But to see most people are woefully unprepared (titania with a braton) and end up spending 10-15 minutes doing absolutely nothing and being completely confused. And while in my opinion, eidolons are the most nuanced and fun piece of content warframe has to offer, I know some people who just dislike it. I think Eidolon hunting is an example of excellent game design that is poorly implemented. People are introduced to eidolons way too early and because there is not difficulty warning on Eidolons, are stripped of their power fantasy.

*(Back to my main point)

Arcanes are an integral part ot the warframe experience. With operation orophix venom, while as flawed as the event was (I had fun with it personally), it introduced an alternative way of farming arcanes. So now, if eidolons are something that isn't someone's cup of tea, there is now an alternative (and honestly I'd say more difficult) way to farm for arcanes. So the education on arcanes now is that either you can kit out an operator and warframe to farm for arcanes or to kit out a necramech and whack a few sentients.

 

To respond to another one of your arguments: 

"Proper game design? In proper game design i should be able to mod Hikou Prime so i could solo ropalolyst with it on SP
But even so i cant is it still bad game design? Nah its just what we get and how it works i use Hiko where i can when i want and for other stuff i have different weapons"

 

I mean, I guess it is bad game design. However, every multiplayer game past pong (and even then with port priority) is not balanced perfectly. The balance itself is not what creates a situation of bad game design, but rather what is done about it.

Proper game design is not a reflection of viability. Imbalance is just a property of any mechanic. Ideally, everything would be evenly balanced and equally viable, but with so many factors, it really isn't possible. While yes, the imbalance in weapons does reflect on poor game design and the developers should always strive to make everything equally viable, the common logic is that games will deviate further from perfect balance when more mechanics or variations are added. 

But back to an earlier point of "what is done about it" making the difference between good and bad game design. Balance changes are controversial most of the time (especially in Warframe). So to avoid an entirely separate argument on Warframe weapon balance, I will use another similar game as an example:

In Destiny 2, recently (last year) they made a new subclass, stasis. When it came out, it was really really imbalanced. Many people straight up quit D2 PvP because of it. The key element that made it so hated was the introduction of hard CC in a shooter that has time to kill values of under 1 second. Now with that being said, D2 players were not happy when an opponent running stasis could freeze them for 3 seconds (These values may be wrong, but just know they were more than 2 seconds). There was also an option to break out after a second or so at the cost of a massive chunk of your health disappearing. While this is reflective of poor game design by itself, the changes they made over the next year did very little to actually solve the problem. They lowered values but did nothing to change the core problem of hard CC being absolutely overpowered in any shooter that has low time to kill values. And their lack of understanding of that core concept kept them from actually creating an acceptably balanced subclass. Quick access to low risk CC is very strong in any shooter. McCree (better name pending) from Overwatch becomes a deadly threat to many characters because of his flashbang which stuns for half a second it is a very powerful ability. 

So purely just talking about game design and balance, the argument you have falls flat when you consider that every multiplayer game has issues with balance one way or another. And furthermore, weapon archetypes exist where certain weapons are more optimal than others for specific situations which is a reflection of good game design. If any weapon could be used to break the shields of the eidolon and every weapon could break the limbs equally easy, it would take away much of the depth to boss killing weapons in Warframe. 

 

Now, onto another point: 

"I didnt need to have guide anywhere or info like "hey this weapon will be good but only up to sortie level enemies" anything above and that weapon will be crap
I just needed to waste few formas to learn my lesson"

So this goes back to my original point. When people first obtain the majority of weapons, they are looking to either mastery rank up or to build it. And especially with the glut of weapons that people from MR 8-16 build (that require forma) and the many weapons that demand more forma to use, it becomes a difficult decision to either forma a weapon to completion to see what its full potential is versus moving to the next weapon that might hit harder without as many forma. I have ran into many weapons where the damage output is okay until I complete the trinity force of modding on it and it becomes a favorite of mine. An example that comes to my mind is Quellor. With its guaranteed impact procs on its secondary fire and huge damage, it's a solid choice for my steel path arsenal. However, with one or two forma on it, the weapon doesn't hit much harder than many of my other weapons because the mods I have to put on it are quite expensive (serration, multishot, and hemorrhage are 14, 16, and 15 capacity). My original point was that if forma could be obtained more efficiently or more quickly, I would have less of a problem with investing 5 or 6 forma into a weapon that I'm iffy on. And while being completely efficient with forma farming will leave you with more than enough for all of your weapons, most players, even if they know proper farming techniques, will not be completely efficient because it is a very easy way to burn out from Warframe to constantly grind and be diligent on timers.

Currently, because I have everything I want kitted out, I don't really have to worry about forma usage and I regularly slap however many forma I need onto a weapon to determine if its bad or not (I spent 8 forma on zylok with a riven before I said it wasn't great). 

 

And now I've typed enough to make a longer post than you so I'll leave it at that. ;)

[MrHBN]

Forma is never gonna change. It is one of most bought items in-game. The game is free. DE need money. 

[ZeroX4]

5 hours ago, DogeManX said:

If we keep one upping each other's posts, eventually we'll have enough text to fill a book. However, I'm happy to express my opinions to anyone willing to listen.

 

Education is definitely a key part of warframe. I think with warframe there are a lot of people who have no idea of the many hidden facts and features that are present. For example, for the longest time, I'd think my game was bugging because I couldn't see my squadmates hp/shields. But then I realized that I accidentally pressed "z" on my keyboard and it would make the names disappear. 

However, in many cases, education seems to be a bandage to fill the gaps where the game is poorly designed. To preface what I'm going to say, I don't hate warframe. I really love the game. However, I love it enough to be able to criticize its shortcomings and want to see the game improve. And I think most people will agree that there are many parts of warframe that annoy us. It's far from a perfect game, but with the ability to reflect and improve, the game can and has gotten much better. 

 

I guess to talk about game design, I have to create a premise on what I say is good game design is (with regards to education). Looking at other games, an example of good game design promoting education are things like movement tech. In Team Fortress and Quake, rocket jumping is an integral part of movement and taking your gameplay to the next level. Education is required because it is a mechanic that is not expressly intuitive (e.g. self damage is usually a punishment mechanic for careless gameplay in games), but it is different in the game because it creates a new skill ceiling that adds depth to the game. In warframe, an example of this is the modding system. The way you mod weapons isn't immediately intuitive as there are a lot of factors going into mods, but with education, the modding system adds a level of depth to warframe that brings it beyond the normal loadout selection of:

>select gun

>shoot gun

 

However, bad game design uses education as a bandage or excuse for why a mechanic is the way it is. To take something from warframe and forma, a great example is the uncommon forma in relics. Rarity systems from "surprise mechanics" are shared across many games with higher tiered rewards being more rare and desirable. So to a new player in warframe, they would naturally gravitate towards selecting an uncommon forma reward over a common drop. However, the education on this topic would be "uncommon forma doesn't do anything extra, it's literally the same forma in a different package". Granted, this example is a very minor example of a learning curve, I hope it serves to illustrate my point. 

To continue on the train of poor game design, to take an example from your response. 

"Like auction house warframe dont have it could it would be cool and all but we have trade chat + 3rd party listing site and somehow it works ppl trade and its going on"

It WOULD be really cool if we had an auction house and a first party trading interface. Many of the arguments on the farming of forma within this thread have contained something about farming for plat and selling it. However, this requires you to either use the (very lacking) chat interface, or to list your items on a third party website (created as a bandage because of warframes lack of built in trade interface). While education goes a long way in respects to trading, you have to admit that DE could do much better in terms of game design to implement a more efficient way to trade (possible maroo revamp?). The steam marketplace is a perfect example of a game with an in game market and an integrated first party trade system. Granted, there are third party sites because of the $ limitation of steam, if warframe were to either partner more closely with warframe marketplace and have a more integrated and fluid system, it would go a much longer way than just pure education of newbies.

 

I guess to talk about an example of an improved part of game design, we can look at railjack and more specifically, the orophix and arcane system. Now, I think it is universally agreed upon that the (hot)launch of railjack was an absolute disaster. I remember playing it right when it dropped and a bug existed where if you got downed in archwing and died, you could never revive. Granted, the system was very unfinished and unpolished then so pretty much any change would be an improvement, with the release of the corpus nodes and introduction of orophix missions, it fixed a few things. 

1. Railjack: railjack had no variety and there were many QOL changes in the update that made for a much more fun experience.

2. Arcane farming: Arcane farming (while I love eidolons) is not everyone's cup of tea. This is mostly due to the average player experience being:

>Get operator

>Go to cetus and talk with konzu

>Start tridolon mission

>Die over and over

*(This part is just a digression to state my personal opinion not really the main argument)

Now, here, I agree that education really does go a long way. I normally go into public tridolon lobbies because I enjoy carrying people sometimes. But to see most people are woefully unprepared (titania with a braton) and end up spending 10-15 minutes doing absolutely nothing and being completely confused. And while in my opinion, eidolons are the most nuanced and fun piece of content warframe has to offer, I know some people who just dislike it. I think Eidolon hunting is an example of excellent game design that is poorly implemented. People are introduced to eidolons way too early and because there is not difficulty warning on Eidolons, are stripped of their power fantasy.

*(Back to my main point)

Arcanes are an integral part ot the warframe experience. With operation orophix venom, while as flawed as the event was (I had fun with it personally), it introduced an alternative way of farming arcanes. So now, if eidolons are something that isn't someone's cup of tea, there is now an alternative (and honestly I'd say more difficult) way to farm for arcanes. So the education on arcanes now is that either you can kit out an operator and warframe to farm for arcanes or to kit out a necramech and whack a few sentients.

 

To respond to another one of your arguments: 

"Proper game design? In proper game design i should be able to mod Hikou Prime so i could solo ropalolyst with it on SP
But even so i cant is it still bad game design? Nah its just what we get and how it works i use Hiko where i can when i want and for other stuff i have different weapons"

 

I mean, I guess it is bad game design. However, every multiplayer game past pong (and even then with port priority) is not balanced perfectly. The balance itself is not what creates a situation of bad game design, but rather what is done about it.

Proper game design is not a reflection of viability. Imbalance is just a property of any mechanic. Ideally, everything would be evenly balanced and equally viable, but with so many factors, it really isn't possible. While yes, the imbalance in weapons does reflect on poor game design and the developers should always strive to make everything equally viable, the common logic is that games will deviate further from perfect balance when more mechanics or variations are added. 

But back to an earlier point of "what is done about it" making the difference between good and bad game design. Balance changes are controversial most of the time (especially in Warframe). So to avoid an entirely separate argument on Warframe weapon balance, I will use another similar game as an example:

In Destiny 2, recently (last year) they made a new subclass, stasis. When it came out, it was really really imbalanced. Many people straight up quit D2 PvP because of it. The key element that made it so hated was the introduction of hard CC in a shooter that has time to kill values of under 1 second. Now with that being said, D2 players were not happy when an opponent running stasis could freeze them for 3 seconds (These values may be wrong, but just know they were more than 2 seconds). There was also an option to break out after a second or so at the cost of a massive chunk of your health disappearing. While this is reflective of poor game design by itself, the changes they made over the next year did very little to actually solve the problem. They lowered values but did nothing to change the core problem of hard CC being absolutely overpowered in any shooter that has low time to kill values. And their lack of understanding of that core concept kept them from actually creating an acceptably balanced subclass. Quick access to low risk CC is very strong in any shooter. McCree (better name pending) from Overwatch becomes a deadly threat to many characters because of his flashbang which stuns for half a second it is a very powerful ability. 

So purely just talking about game design and balance, the argument you have falls flat when you consider that every multiplayer game has issues with balance one way or another. And furthermore, weapon archetypes exist where certain weapons are more optimal than others for specific situations which is a reflection of good game design. If any weapon could be used to break the shields of the eidolon and every weapon could break the limbs equally easy, it would take away much of the depth to boss killing weapons in Warframe. 

 

Now, onto another point: 

"I didnt need to have guide anywhere or info like "hey this weapon will be good but only up to sortie level enemies" anything above and that weapon will be crap
I just needed to waste few formas to learn my lesson"

So this goes back to my original point. When people first obtain the majority of weapons, they are looking to either mastery rank up or to build it. And especially with the glut of weapons that people from MR 8-16 build (that require forma) and the many weapons that demand more forma to use, it becomes a difficult decision to either forma a weapon to completion to see what its full potential is versus moving to the next weapon that might hit harder without as many forma. I have ran into many weapons where the damage output is okay until I complete the trinity force of modding on it and it becomes a favorite of mine. An example that comes to my mind is Quellor. With its guaranteed impact procs on its secondary fire and huge damage, it's a solid choice for my steel path arsenal. However, with one or two forma on it, the weapon doesn't hit much harder than many of my other weapons because the mods I have to put on it are quite expensive (serration, multishot, and hemorrhage are 14, 16, and 15 capacity). My original point was that if forma could be obtained more efficiently or more quickly, I would have less of a problem with investing 5 or 6 forma into a weapon that I'm iffy on. And while being completely efficient with forma farming will leave you with more than enough for all of your weapons, most players, even if they know proper farming techniques, will not be completely efficient because it is a very easy way to burn out from Warframe to constantly grind and be diligent on timers.

Currently, because I have everything I want kitted out, I don't really have to worry about forma usage and I regularly slap however many forma I need onto a weapon to determine if its bad or not (I spent 8 forma on zylok with a riven before I said it wasn't great). 

 

And now I've typed enough to make a longer post than you so I'll leave it at that. ;)

Yeah i do agree you are right about your standpoint with good game design

But you see IF someone who dont play warframe would read what you just wrote it would feel like you comparing apples to oranges
That apples are easier to eat while oranges are more messy
Oranges are more juicy while apples are not

But thats the idea they are different
Trust me i do understand what you are trying to say

But in our conversation main difference between is that i care for something to just work
You seems to have best attributes from apples being applied to oranges and vice versa

You kinda care to refuse option to eat oranges close to water source so you can clean your hands after eating them if they got sticky by being covered in orange juice
Which would solve the problem and it looks like you just wish for oranges to be juicy but dont spread juice over your hands if you squeeze them hard enough

And like i said THIS IS HOW WARFRAME IS its not bad game design or good its just how it is
And we should just adjust to it
 

Like take modding weapon for example
My cousin was attempting warframe like 4 times before he understand how it work

We expect to get a weapon put in something into weapon and puff its auto 4x more damage
 

Ow no it does not work like that you 1st need to upgrade that mods then you need to understand what mods will give what on top of that you need to understand what base stats on weapon even mean to begin with and so go on

Its not bad game design its just how it is
Try to think about it this way
If smartphones with android would be like apple smartphones then what would be the difference?
For me biggest apple sin is ability to repair their crap on your own and i say they should fix it
But there are ppl that dont give a F**** they just buy X item and wnat to use it and that is end of the story for them

I never understood console players because why would you want limit yourself to console when on PC you can do much more?
But you see u buy any console plug it to your TV put in some game and puff you are playing already
On PC well you know how installing some games making accounts and all looks like

Its not bad design its just how consoles and PCs are

So look at it from different standpoint maybe you will understand more

Care to tak up challenge who will make shorter reply next? I think i have a good start

[mrgudveseli]

On 2021-08-23 at 6:49 AM, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

As someone who still needs a quadrillion forma (and also as someone who wants to eventually have all kuva/tenet weapons at 40) the only thing I disagree about with the current implementation of forma is having forma bps in the uncommon slots in relics. That's an enormous feelbad. If it was my goal to get the maximum amount of forma a day it wouldn't be particularly difficult to farm up 10 of them daily (9 from plat, 1 from building). Plenty of things are straight up unavailable for much longer times, plat or no plat. I think those are way worse. Most notably, but not exclusively, daily login milestone rewards. Primed Sure Footed is particularly egregious.

Sure Footed can help until milestone comes, it ain't that bad. Simply keep it in mind, keep logging in and it's yours.

[mrgudveseli]

I have some questions. 

Why do you need to build every single weapon?

If you must build every weapon for whatever reason, why do you have to forma it? If it's for mastery, max it, sell it, build another. Saves up on forma a lot. If you actually plan on having a weapon for every playstyle, mission, synergy with warframes, you don't need every weapon in the game still. Forma those only. 

I understand Warframe is a farmfest, but farming for the sake of farming will make you burn out really quickly. Gotta give purpose to farming.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, DogeManX said:

Sorry, I should've been more clear with my methodology. You're right when you say that yes, I am not 88% efficient with overall farming for forma farming from every possible source. I meant to illustrate efficiency as a method of 1 day logged in = 1 forma gained. I know it's a very flawed way to measure pure efficiency (for example, if I ground 1000 forma from plague star, my metric would basically say that I was over 100% efficient with forma farming). 

I only used the percent as a measurement because it was the easiest way I could quantify efficiency at the moment. It's a really flawed measurement and basically relies on the notion that with only farming relics and crafting forma blueprints, the efficiency is 88%. A better way I just came up with is to divide total forma by hours played to get my forma per hour. 

 

Total forma: 880 (I actually forma'd some weapons right after I posted) 

Total hours: 1665

880/1665=.529 Forma per hour

 

So I guess a better way to state forma efficiency is to say that in all the time I spent playing warframe, I'd roughly generate .529 forma in an hour of gameplay. I'd say this is a decently fair way to quantify forma farming as it also accounts for the other content that could be done outside of solely forma farming.

 

Anyways, apologies for my primitive measurement and the confusion it caused. I just used easy figures because I didn't really have a solid way of formatting forma efficiency.

Hey no need to apologize. Your hourly comparison gives a much more accurate view. Days are just too vague as a measurement, cos me might be on for 5 minutes or 5 hours.

[Krankbert]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb mrgudveseli:

I have some questions. 

Why do you need to build every single weapon?

If you must build every weapon for whatever reason, why do you have to forma it? If it's for mastery, max it, sell it, build another. Saves up on forma a lot.

You and the two people who liked your comment need to look up how Kuva and Tenet weapons work.

[DogeManX]

10 hours ago, mrgudveseli said:

I have some questions. 

Why do you need to build every single weapon?

If you must build every weapon for whatever reason, why do you have to forma it? If it's for mastery, max it, sell it, build another. Saves up on forma a lot. If you actually plan on having a weapon for every playstyle, mission, synergy with warframes, you don't need every weapon in the game still. Forma those only. 

I understand Warframe is a farmfest, but farming for the sake of farming will make you burn out really quickly. Gotta give purpose to farming.

But its not about building every single weapon. It's about the enjoyment that comes from building various weapons. What I'm arguing is that the fun of warframe is limited by a limitation on forma as more and more weapons and warframes demand your time. How will you find out if a weapon synergizes with a frame or works well with something else if you're limited by the supply of forma. As more weapons are added, more choices are given to the player. But the increase of choice doesn't come with an increase of freedom to make various choices. Forma limiting the number of weapons that can be built will definitely make people gloss over some weapons in favor of others because they may not be as "optimal" or have as shiny of stats.

[DogeManX]

15 hours ago, MrHBN said:

Forma is never gonna change. It is one of most bought items in-game. The game is free. DE need money. 

An alternative argument to this is that if forma is given more freely, more people will build and keep warframes, weapons, and other things that require forma and there will be more incentive to purchase platinum to expand storage. Inventory slots are also a more closed system than forma as well (only obtainable through special events) meaning it would be pure profit.

[DogeManX]

12 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Yeah i do agree you are right about your standpoint with good game design

But you see IF someone who dont play warframe would read what you just wrote it would feel like you comparing apples to oranges
That apples are easier to eat while oranges are more messy
Oranges are more juicy while apples are not

But thats the idea they are different
Trust me i do understand what you are trying to say

But in our conversation main difference between is that i care for something to just work
You seems to have best attributes from apples being applied to oranges and vice versa

You kinda care to refuse option to eat oranges close to water source so you can clean your hands after eating them if they got sticky by being covered in orange juice
Which would solve the problem and it looks like you just wish for oranges to be juicy but dont spread juice over your hands if you squeeze them hard enough

And like i said THIS IS HOW WARFRAME IS its not bad game design or good its just how it is
And we should just adjust to it
 

Like take modding weapon for example
My cousin was attempting warframe like 4 times before he understand how it work

We expect to get a weapon put in something into weapon and puff its auto 4x more damage
 

Ow no it does not work like that you 1st need to upgrade that mods then you need to understand what mods will give what on top of that you need to understand what base stats on weapon even mean to begin with and so go on

Its not bad game design its just how it is
Try to think about it this way
If smartphones with android would be like apple smartphones then what would be the difference?
For me biggest apple sin is ability to repair their crap on your own and i say they should fix it
But there are ppl that dont give a F**** they just buy X item and wnat to use it and that is end of the story for them

I never understood console players because why would you want limit yourself to console when on PC you can do much more?
But you see u buy any console plug it to your TV put in some game and puff you are playing already
On PC well you know how installing some games making accounts and all looks like

Its not bad design its just how consoles and PCs are

So look at it from different standpoint maybe you will understand more

Care to tak up challenge who will make shorter reply next? I think i have a good start

Apples and oranges are definitely different. However, the apples and oranges you see today have been changed and perfected up to the point where they stand now through decades of selective breeding. Apples and oranges are where they are now because someone said, hey this is the way things are right now but I think they could be better if I made some changes.

Using your fruit analogy, warframe and another game might be fundamentally different and no idea from one game will be a perfect fit for another. But that isn't to say that warframe can never improve. If we take a look at the modern fruit industries, we can see that the fruit has been cultivated for years to be the most appealing. While sure there are always annoying parts like the sticky hands you get from oranges, it's well worth the trouble.

Comparing it to warframe, there are a lot of hassles that would give you "sticky hands", but overall the game is worth it. However, that's not to say it can't be improved on. Obviously DE will never make the perfect game and neither will any other dev for that matter. But they definitely have something going to see warframe almost turn 10 years old and still be growing.

Back to my original point, forma is an integral part to warframe and changing it will definitely shake up the monetization structure of warframe a bit. However, for more casual players, this might result in a more heavy monetary investment of the game (from slot purchases to keep all their modded stuff) and will promote exploration of better builds rather than doing the minimum (creating more investment in individual warframes and their playstyles). I think it'll help lead to a more "deep" connection to warframe. 

Now granted, education is a big part in the enjoyment of warframe as well. I think the biggest problem of it is that you have to basically learn everything outside of warframe to be able to know how to play it. Better tutorials would definitely go a long way. Hopefully the new player experience changes coming soon TM will serve to fix that.

[DogeManX]

12 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Yeah i do agree you are right about your standpoint with good game design

But you see IF someone who dont play warframe would read what you just wrote it would feel like you comparing apples to oranges
That apples are easier to eat while oranges are more messy
Oranges are more juicy while apples are not

But thats the idea they are different
Trust me i do understand what you are trying to say

But in our conversation main difference between is that i care for something to just work
You seems to have best attributes from apples being applied to oranges and vice versa

You kinda care to refuse option to eat oranges close to water source so you can clean your hands after eating them if they got sticky by being covered in orange juice
Which would solve the problem and it looks like you just wish for oranges to be juicy but dont spread juice over your hands if you squeeze them hard enough

And like i said THIS IS HOW WARFRAME IS its not bad game design or good its just how it is
And we should just adjust to it
 

Like take modding weapon for example
My cousin was attempting warframe like 4 times before he understand how it work

We expect to get a weapon put in something into weapon and puff its auto 4x more damage
 

Ow no it does not work like that you 1st need to upgrade that mods then you need to understand what mods will give what on top of that you need to understand what base stats on weapon even mean to begin with and so go on

Its not bad game design its just how it is
Try to think about it this way
If smartphones with android would be like apple smartphones then what would be the difference?
For me biggest apple sin is ability to repair their crap on your own and i say they should fix it
But there are ppl that dont give a F**** they just buy X item and wnat to use it and that is end of the story for them

I never understood console players because why would you want limit yourself to console when on PC you can do much more?
But you see u buy any console plug it to your TV put in some game and puff you are playing already
On PC well you know how installing some games making accounts and all looks like

Its not bad design its just how consoles and PCs are

So look at it from different standpoint maybe you will understand more

Care to tak up challenge who will make shorter reply next? I think i have a good start

Apples and oranges are definitely different. However, the apples and oranges you see today have been changed and perfected up to the point where they stand now through decades of selective breeding. Apples and oranges are where they are now because someone said, hey this is the way things are right now but I think they could be better if I made some changes.

Using your fruit analogy, warframe and another game might be fundamentally different and no idea from one game will be a perfect fit for another. But that isn't to say that warframe can never improve. If we take a look at the modern fruit industries, we can see that the fruit has been cultivated for years to be the most appealing. While sure there are always annoying parts like the sticky hands you get from oranges, it's well worth the trouble.

Comparing it to warframe, there are a lot of hassles that would give you "sticky hands", but overall the game is worth it. However, that's not to say it can't be improved on. Obviously DE will never make the perfect game and neither will any other dev for that matter. But they definitely have something going to see warframe almost turn 10 years old and still be growing.

Back to my original point, forma is an integral part to warframe and changing it will definitely shake up the monetization structure of warframe a bit. However, for more casual players, this might result in a more heavy monetary investment of the game (from slot purchases to keep all their modded stuff) and will promote exploration of better builds rather than doing the minimum (creating more investment in individual warframes and their playstyles). I think it'll help lead to a more "deep" connection to warframe. 

Now granted, education is a big part in the enjoyment of warframe as well. I think the biggest problem of it is that you have to basically learn everything outside of warframe to be able to know how to play it. Better tutorials would definitely go a long way. Hopefully the new player experience changes coming soon TM will serve to fix that.

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

not much of a issue as plague star is coming back an will allow you to buy pre build formas with event standing
then there is the issue of players already stockpiling formas before the tennat weapons came out

[TheArmchairThinker]

For new players? Are you really saying this for new players or it's actually for yourself that want to have forma but don't want to show it? I doubt a new player will need that much right on the beginning and seeing you bringing kuva/ tenet weapons, which are not available for them right away gives the hint that you're just playing new player card to hide your intention. Not to mention galvanized mods that you have no way to obtain until you clear the whole star chart which by the time you reach that point you can easily hoard enough from crafting or have enough platinum from trading to buy some

New players will rarely need 3 - 4 forma. At best there's only a few weapons that need them unless we're talking about player that put 4+ forma on MK-1 Braton which is I believe is a needle in a haystack. Also, you can make them from your mobile phone app to access your foundry and make one every day so I'd say 23 hours is fine enough

[mrgudveseli]

12 hours ago, Krankbert said:

You and the two people who liked your comment need to look up how Kuva and Tenet weapons work.

Elaborate, please.

[Tesseract7777]

23 hours ago, MrHBN said:

Forma is never gonna change. It is one of most bought items in-game. The game is free. DE need money. 

 

[Tesseract7777]

Be glad they are giving it to us in this coming Plague Star, despite how much it may hurt them financially in the short term. 

DE employees have to feed their children and they cannot just make Canada go on strike and send the Prime Minister adrift if things don't work out and be like "I'm not your friend buddy", "I'm not your buddy guy", I'm not your guy friend", etc. if things go South...Park. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

8 hours ago, DogeManX said:

But its not about building every single weapon. It's about the enjoyment that comes from building various weapons. What I'm arguing is that the fun of warframe is limited by a limitation on forma as more and more weapons and warframes demand your time. How will you find out if a weapon synergizes with a frame or works well with something else if you're limited by the supply of forma. As more weapons are added, more choices are given to the player. But the increase of choice doesn't come with an increase of freedom to make various choices. Forma limiting the number of weapons that can be built will definitely make people gloss over some weapons in favor of others because they may not be as "optimal" or have as shiny of stats.

The issue with this is you assume the game exists ONLY to serve our pleasures, and not also to make a profit so that it can pay its 300+ employees AND keep the lights on, itself.

In a perfect world, all games are JUST art, and are created only for arts' sake; to be enjoyed by the viewers/gamers, and do not NEED motive beyond that for the decisions they make in-game.

But this ain't a perfect world.  DE doesn't pay their workers in gratitude and rainbows. 

You all THINK you know the numbers that would "improve their profits", but DE actually HAS those numbers, and HAS been making profits for a long while now.

They know what they're doing.   

Not everything is about making the game "easier" or "simpler" for us.  Some things are INTENTIONAL stress points to incentivize purchases.  That's the trade-off for you, me, and everybody else, getting the game for FREE and all the DLC for FREE.

DE gotta make money, as several have pointed out.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Be glad they are giving it to us in this coming Plague Star, despite how much it may hurt them financially in the short term. 

DE employees have to feed their children and they cannot just make Canada go on strike and send the Prime Minister adrift if things don't work out and be like "I'm not your friend buddy", "I'm not your buddy guy", I'm not your guy friend", etc. if things go South. 

100%.   I really don't understand how people don't get it.  They act like everything in the game should be improved solely to benefit the player, and never the developer.  As if the developer "owes" them the "perfect" game.

Da Vinci did not "owe" anyone a "better" Mona Lisa.  He could've reworked it in further projects IF he chose, but HE was the artist, it was HIS creation, and he gave what he gave.  Is that not enough?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with suggestions, requests, and critiques...  but when it starts to become "expected", when it comes as an ENTITLEMENT rather than friendly feedback, it's problematic and toxic.

 

[mrgudveseli]

8 hours ago, DogeManX said:

But its not about building every single weapon. It's about the enjoyment that comes from building various weapons. What I'm arguing is that the fun of warframe is limited by a limitation on forma as more and more weapons and warframes demand your time. How will you find out if a weapon synergizes with a frame or works well with something else if you're limited by the supply of forma. As more weapons are added, more choices are given to the player. But the increase of choice doesn't come with an increase of freedom to make various choices. Forma limiting the number of weapons that can be built will definitely make people gloss over some weapons in favor of others because they may not be as "optimal" or have as shiny of stats.

You will still need some time to properly test the weapon. It doesn't even require forma to recognize strengths and weaknesses of it. Testing in missions can be done by the time another forma is being built. 

[Tesseract7777]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

The issue with this is you assume the game exists ONLY to serve our pleasures, and not also to make a profit so that it can pay its 300+ employees AND keep the lights on, itself.

In a perfect world, all games are JUST art, and are created only for arts' sake; to be enjoyed by the viewers/gamers, and do not NEED motive beyond that for the decisions they make in-game.

But this ain't a perfect world.  DE doesn't pay their workers in gratitude and rainbows. 

You all THINK you know the numbers that would "improve their profits", but DE actually HAS those numbers, and HAS been making profits for a long while now.

They know what they're doing.   

Not everything is about making the game "easier" or "simpler" for us.  Some things are INTENTIONAL stress points to incentivize purchases.  That's the trade-off for you, me, and everybody else, getting the game for FREE and all the DLC for FREE.

DE gotta make money, as several have pointed out.

Exactly.

I work at a hotel.

As a daily ongoing whatever, our first and foremost customer facing is to making everyone feel secure and welcomed and like they are getting enough for their money, etc. Hospitality means we want you to feel like you are taken care of. 

However, at the end of the day, no matter how much you care about empathy, service, etc, a business exists to make a profit/at least sustain itself during a growth/struggle period, and you cannot do that by trashing yourself or throwing money down the drain or bowing to unreasonable jerks. Business isn't moral or immoral, it is just. business. And business exists to make a profit. People can complain all they want, but the vast majority of games now don't make their money based on subscriptons or ads but how much you spend for cosmetics or pay to skip, and imo that is about the most pure meritrocracy ever.

Most games you can at least try them but if you want  to get their cosmetics or pay to skip you pay some money for convenience and  Warframe is one of the most pure models in existence of that type right now. 

It is sad because being a very slightly older millenial, I miss the golden age of gaming as it were when MMO's were truly everywhere, but the truth is even WoW with all the popularity it has to skate on can barely sustain it because true MMO play is incredibly expensive to keep those servers sustained even with monthly subscriptions and most don't want to do that either in today's age even if they are whales. It just feels weird to a lot of people now. Gaming has changed. So most gaming is done solo or in four person squads and the day of wandering around a map and seeing dozens or more humans that are just doing their thing that you can ignore or try to group up with are long in the past. : (  

[L3512]

9 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Be glad they are giving it to us in this coming Plague Star, despite how much it may hurt them financially in the short term. 

DE as pointed out is a business not a charity. 

If the cost of plague star was more than the expected gain it would not be happening.